The Spurs thread | 2016-2017 season | Serious thread - wummers/derailers will be threadbanned

Will Spurs finish in top 4 in the upcoming season?

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Vicar of Dibbly said:
Alli isn't out, he's done his 3 match ban. As for Dembele, yes we'll miss him but Wanyama will obviously step in and although he's basically a defensive midfielder there is no reason why Poch can't instruct either Wanyama or Dier to play Dembele's role and drive forward as best they can. I don't see it as a disaster. Why do you predict a slow start? We had a slow start last season due to players bedding in and a general gelling but gained a lot of momentum later, no real reason to start slow this time. As for top four, how do you know Man Utd, Man City and Chelsea will have "increased strength"? Spending a shed load of money doesn't guarantee increased strength, at least not immediately. I think it's more likely those teams will have slow starts than spurs. When Man City first got the oil money they spent an absolute shed load of money on World class players and were crap the whole of the first season and well into the second season before they started to click. van Gaal spent a shed load of money in his two year tenure, what did that achieve? There is no certainty whatsoever that the two Mancs and Chelsea will be stronger in the short term. Also two of those teams have managers with no PL experience, I think Guardiola in particular is in for a shock, having highly competitive teams coming at him all season. He's not used to that. I would like to see at least one player brought in that would improve the starting eleven, that also automatically strengthens the squad depth. There's still a month of transfer window left so until it's known who has done what I think it's impossible to guess who the top 4 will be.
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For some reason I thought Alli had a longer ban, fair enough.

No chance than Wanyama/Dier can provide what Dembele does. He's a unique player with unique qualities, not many players in the league can do what he can do. He was our best player last season in my opinion. Perhaps not a disaster, but certainly a big blow, considering his importance to the side last season and how we collapsed without him in the side.

I predict a slow start due to a tough first few games, the missing Dembele factor and because we left last season in poor form. Now this is a new season completely, but I feel like a few players in our squad still may need to get their confidence levels back up and that may take a while. This isn't for certain of course, I just have a feeling. I hope I'm wrong.

I don't know, but I do believe they will be better. I can't see the top sides being as inept again. Spending is no guarantee, you're right there, but United have got a top manager in who knows the league very well and have signed some extremely high calibre players. I can't see Ibrahimovic, Pogba and Mkhitaryan all failing, and even if only one of them has a major impact they'll be a lot better off going forward. Remember, there was only a 4 point gap between us last season.

City, well put simply I rate Guardiola. You seem to think he'll struggle and yes, he's not going to walk the league, but I certainly don't doubt his ability to keep City in that top 4. He's got a quality few players in that squad and cash to burn and he's a much better manager than the tactically inept (imo) Pellegrini, who was incredibly naive in the big games last season.

As for Chelsea, they've acquired Kante who I can see as nothing less than a huge success. The man was a titan for Leicester, he's about as Premier League proven as it gets and he'd walk in to any side in the league. Conte did brilliantly with that Italian team and turned around Juventus, he's an incredible motivator and I can't see how Chelsea won't have improved. That Chelsea squad has the talent (Hazard, Fabregas, Costa, Matic etc) but it struggled for motivation last season, Conte will fix that right up.

There's no guarantees of anything in football, but I think it's very unlikely that we won't find it harder next season. Maybe 1, or even 2 of these sides will continue to under perform, but not all of them. I'm not saying we have no chance at top 4, just that it will be very competitive. If we splash the cash on an excellent wide player who can add a regular source of goals, I'll be a lot more confident.

Honestly, I think a few of our fans are getting ahead of themselves. This squad has been brilliant, but it's still yet to win anything, and their collapse last season was disappointing. We're yet to see if they have the mental strength to pick themselves up from it, I believe they do but it's still a question mark. Other sides are blowing us out of the water spending wise, let's be content with the underdog tag and see where we can go from there.
 
Obiorahking_ said:
How is the depth in this team?
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Better now, thanks to Janssen and Wanyama. We badly needed that striker depth and we've now got it, and with Wanyama in the side we have an alternative to Dier as well as a player who can fill in if Dembele is out. This was crucial, because last season we were reliant on Mason when Dembele was out, who simply isn't good enough for a side with ambitions of top 4.

I also think we need better depth in the wide positions, and another defender. I also don't rate Trippier particularly highly, but that's a personal preference.

Overall, decent but not great depth. Not as good as the big clubs, but it's workable, as long as we don't suffer badly with injuries. We were fortunate last season, but if we had an injury crisis like United or Arsenal did, we would be in very big trouble. We collapsed when Alli/Dembele were out and whilst this was also due to mental issues after the title was gone, it was clear that we simply didn't have the quality to replace them in midfield.
 
Lloris before the goal scored by Portugal at the Euro 2016

 
We'veGotDeleAlli said:
For some reason I thought Alli had a longer ban, fair enough.

No chance than Wanyama/Dier can provide what Dembele does. He's a unique player with unique qualities, not many players in the league can do what he can do. He was our best player last season in my opinion. Perhaps not a disaster, but certainly a big blow, considering his importance to the side last season and how we collapsed without him in the side.

I predict a slow start due to a tough first few games, the missing Dembele factor and because we left last season in poor form. Now this is a new season completely, but I feel like a few players in our squad still may need to get their confidence levels back up and that may take a while. This isn't for certain of course, I just have a feeling. I hope I'm wrong.

I don't know, but I do believe they will be better. I can't see the top sides being as inept again. Spending is no guarantee, you're right there, but United have got a top manager in who knows the league very well and have signed some extremely high calibre players. I can't see Ibrahimovic, Pogba and Mkhitaryan all failing, and even if only one of them has a major impact they'll be a lot better off going forward. Remember, there was only a 4 point gap between us last season.

City, well put simply I rate Guardiola. You seem to think he'll struggle and yes, he's not going to walk the league, but I certainly don't doubt his ability to keep City in that top 4. He's got a quality few players in that squad and cash to burn and he's a much better manager than the tactically inept (imo) Pellegrini, who was incredibly naive in the big games last season.

As for Chelsea, they've acquired Kante who I can see as nothing less than a huge success. The man was a titan for Leicester, he's about as Premier League proven as it gets and he'd walk in to any side in the league. Conte did brilliantly with that Italian team and turned around Juventus, he's an incredible motivator and I can't see how Chelsea won't have improved. That Chelsea squad has the talent (Hazard, Fabregas, Costa, Matic etc) but it struggled for motivation last season, Conte will fix that right up.

There's no guarantees of anything in football, but I think it's very unlikely that we won't find it harder next season. Maybe 1, or even 2 of these sides will continue to under perform, but not all of them. I'm not saying we have no chance at top 4, just that it will be very competitive. If we splash the cash on an excellent wide player who can add a regular source of goals, I'll be a lot more confident.

Honestly, I think a few of our fans are getting ahead of themselves. This squad has been brilliant, but it's still yet to win anything, and their collapse last season was disappointing. We're yet to see if they have the mental strength to pick themselves up from it, I believe they do but it's still a question mark. Other sides are blowing us out of the water spending wise, let's be content with the underdog tag and see where we can go from there.
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I agree Dembele is unique, hence my wording to emulate him "as best they can". The problem is that we can't play kids in the CL as we did in the EL and Dembele seems to struggle playing two games a week, so unless somebody else is brought in for that position, Wanyama is going to have to fill in alongside Dier for a good number of games. I'm not sure Winks is ready yet in spite of his good performances in the two games in Oz. Maybe Poch thinks he is ready, we'll find out soon enough I guess. It's going to be an interesting season I suspect.
 
Vicar of Dibbly said:
I agree Dembele is unique, hence my wording to emulate him "as best they can". The problem is that we can't play kids in the CL as we did in the EL and Dembele seems to struggle playing two games a week, so unless somebody else is brought in for that position, Wanyama is going to have to fill in alongside Dier for a good number of games. I'm not sure Winks is ready yet in spite of his good performances in the two games in Oz. Maybe Poch thinks he is ready, we'll find out soon enough I guess. It's going to be an interesting season I suspect.
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True, I definitely wouldn't mind another central midfielder being brought in, but if Pocchetino thinks he can trust Winks, then I have full faith in him. Definitely an interesting season, I'm fascinated to see how we get on in the Champions League. Last season in the big games we looked brilliant at times but failed to put opponents away, let's see if we can work on that, because we won't get as many chances to score as we do in the Prem.
 
We'veGotDeleAlli said:
@GlastonSpur

Do you expect us to get in the top 4 next season? I believe we'll have a very hard time of it, due to the increased strength of United, City and Chelsea. I actually feel our best chance of getting that fourth spot is to finish ahead of Arsenal. We were the better side than them last season, despite our collapse in the last few games. Arsenal also haven't strengthened much either, having only signed Xhaka. Yet to be seen if more signings are on the horizon....
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Yes, I do ... but I'll wait until the season is about to kick off before making a finalised prediction.

For me it's not so much about which players other teams have signed, but more about the fact of a settled Spurs squad (and manager) with excellent team spirit and a young average age (and no players past their best), which means they are likely to improve further this coming season. Such further improvement is not guaranteed of course, but it's more likely than not.

In contrast, several of our rivals for top face a lot of squad changes, with new managers and new playing styles to bed in. So spending lots money on "big name" players won't of itself make them into cohesive teams.
 
I could see Spurs having a dip this year having gone so close last year.

Also some of their key players are coming off the back of their first international tournament (and a disappointing one) and it's not uncommon in those circumstances for it to take a little while to get back in their stride.

Kane is frankly too talented to not score goals, as proved last season when he rubbished any notions of second season syndrome. Nevertheless could see him being less influential this time around.

If Spurs do take a step back this year it's important for them that they don't get too fidgety and make any rash decisions on the basis of one season. Pochettino is undoubtedly a very talented manager that would take them forward long term.
 
Red Bug said:
Oh I see. Why is that?
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It's necessary to meet UEFA requirements, which will be impacted by the works in and around the current stadium affecting access, capacity and rights delivery.

And for the 2017/18 season, since we'll need vacate White Hart Lane to complete the latter stages of our new stadium and surrounding environs, we also have the option to play all our Premier League and cup home games at Wembley.
 
We'veGotDeleAlli said:
Better now, thanks to Janssen and Wanyama. We badly needed that striker depth and we've now got it, and with Wanyama in the side we have an alternative to Dier as well as a player who can fill in if Dembele is out. This was crucial, because last season we were reliant on Mason when Dembele was out, who simply isn't good enough for a side with ambitions of top 4.

I also think we need better depth in the wide positions, and another defender. I also don't rate Trippier particularly highly, but that's a personal preference.

Overall, decent but not great depth. Not as good as the big clubs, but it's workable, as long as we don't suffer badly with injuries. We were fortunate last season, but if we had an injury crisis like United or Arsenal did, we would be in very big trouble. We collapsed when Alli/Dembele were out and whilst this was also due to mental issues after the title was gone, it was clear that we simply didn't have the quality to replace them in midfield.
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Thanks. Good stuff.
Was Dier a center back? Couldn't he always fill in?
Spurs could definitely use some cover on the wings as well
 
Obiorahking_ said:
Thanks. Good stuff.
Was Dier a center back? Couldn't he always fill in?
Spurs could definitely use some cover on the wings as well
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Yes Dier was a centre back and could fill in if needed, so can Wanyama who has played centre back in the past. As long as BOTH centre backs are not out at the same time, Wimmer is very capable to cover as he proved last season when Vertonghen was out for a while. Some fans think that Wimmer was actually better than Vertonghen. There is already a winger from France on his way in, maybe already done but not announced yet.
 
Vicar of Dibbly said:
Yes Dier was a centre back and could fill in if needed, so can Wanyama who has played centre back in the past. As long as BOTH centre backs are not out at the same time, Wimmer is very capable to cover as he proved last season when Vertonghen was out for a while. Some fans think that Wimmer was actually better than Vertonghen. There is already a winger from France on his way in, maybe already done but not announced yet.
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I have only seen like two games of Kevin, but for what it is worth he definitely brings a physical and athletic aspect to his game. His concentration might be a different story though.

Do you know which winger is coming in?
 
Obiorahking_ said:
Thanks. Good stuff.
Was Dier a center back? Couldn't he always fill in?
Spurs could definitely use some cover on the wings as well
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He can fill in, but honestly he hasn't played that position in over a season now, so there's a chance he'd look rusty in that position. I'd rather keep him only at defensive midfield and have a proper CB as depth.

As mentioned, we do have Nkoudou coming in to boost us on the wings. I know very little about him, but glancing at his stats last season in Ligue 1 it looks doubtful he'll have a major impact. Honestly feel we need somebody to come in and guarantee us goals from the wing. Perhaps Son will become that player, wasn't great last season but I haven't given up on him.
 
We'veGotDeleAlli said:
... we do have Nkoudou coming in to boost us on the wings. I know very little about him, but glancing at his stats last season in Ligue 1 it looks doubtful he'll have a major impact. Honestly feel we need somebody to come in and guarantee us goals from the wing. ... .
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I also know little about him, but he did score 10 goals for Marseille last season in 41 appearances. That doesn't seem too bad for a winger.
 
Vicar of Dibbly said:
Yes Dier was a centre back and could fill in if needed, so can Wanyama who has played centre back in the past. As long as BOTH centre backs are not out at the same time, Wimmer is very capable to cover as he proved last season when Vertonghen was out for a while. Some fans think that Wimmer was actually better than Vertonghen. There is already a winger from France on his way in, maybe already done but not announced yet.
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I was looking at Wimmer for my FF team, how long is Vertonghen out for?
 
I think a lot of their season depends on if the stay largely injury free again. They ran out of steam towards he end of last season, so let's see how they start the next.
 
I like Spurs and I backed them to win last season. But with their fantastic season, they ended up with 74(I think). They will need more than that to finish top 4 imo.
 
GlastonSpur said:
It's necessary to meet UEFA requirements, which will be impacted by the works in and around the current stadium affecting access, capacity and rights delivery.

And for the 2017/18 season, since we'll need vacate White Hart Lane to complete the latter stages of our new stadium and surrounding environs, we also have the option to play all our Premier League and cup home games at Wembley.
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Was it Arsenal who once played CL games at Wembley? I remember some team having to do it.
 
GlastonSpur said:
I also know little about him, but he did score 10 goals for Marseille last season in 41 appearances. That doesn't seem too bad for a winger.
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Ah, I had a look at his league stats only, in which he had 5 goals and 3 assists in 22 appearances. Which isn't all that great, considering the Premier League is a big step up.

Would be interesting to see N'jie's stats the season before he joined us, I'd imagine they would be somewhat similar?
 
charlenefan said:
I was looking at Wimmer for my FF team, how long is Vertonghen out for?
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Another 3 weeks or so. I expect he'll miss the first two games of the season, potentially the third depending on his recovery and on how Wimmer is getting on.
 
Adisa said:
I like Spurs and I backed them to win last season. But with their fantastic season, they ended up with 74(I think). They will need more than that to finish top 4 imo.
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I don't think so, the league is extremely competitive these days, so its natural that teams will finish on less points, there's very few easy 3 pointers around. Even looking at the teams coming up, Middlesbrough are signing players that not so long ago would play for a top 6 side. With the new TV money, everybody can afford to build squads that can compete with the best in the league.
 
Vicar of Dibbly said:
Vertonghen's injury is not as bad as first thought, he MAY be back for first game of season but if not he should only miss one or two games.
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I expect he'll miss the first two because we won't want to rush him, and like I said if Wimmer does well then he may even miss the third.
 
Adisa said:
I like Spurs and I backed them to win last season. But with their fantastic season, they ended up with 74(I think). They will need more than that to finish top 4 imo.
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70/72 points has been enough on average to get top 4 throughout the PL era. With the mid table teams getting stronger each year and therefore nicking more points off the top teams, the required points for top 4 will reduce, not increase. It's very likely 68/70 will be enough for 4th place this season.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Yes, I do ... but I'll wait until the season is about to kick off before making a finalised prediction.

For me it's not so much about which players other teams have signed, but more about the fact of a settled Spurs squad (and manager) with excellent team spirit and a young average age (and no players past their best), which means they are likely to improve further this coming season. Such further improvement is not guaranteed of course, but it's more likely than not.

In contrast, several of our rivals for top face a lot of squad changes, with new managers and new playing styles to bed in. So spending lots money on "big name" players won't of itself make them into cohesive teams.
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Interested to know who your picks are for top 4 in any order.
 
NK86 said:
Interested to know who your picks are for top 4 in any order.
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1. Arsenal
2. City
3. Spurs
4. Liverpool or United

This may change before the window is nearly closed and the season about to kick off
 
GlastonSpur said:
As I've already said, I haven't criticised United for spending money, I've criticised what the money has been spent on.

Moreover, attempting to buy success is obviously a legitimate strategy for clubs that can afford it and have earned their own money (I haven't said otherwise). It can be distinguished from, for example, youth development or coaching or reliance on a good scouting and transfer negotiation system.

When this approach is the dominant feature, then it can accurately be called cheque-book management. It's clearly been the most notable feature of United's approach since Fergie left - you only have to look at the net spend figure to see this - and looks set to continue, even accelerate, under Mourinho.

It's the same approach that's been taken by City for years now. The difference is that United have earned all of their money whilst City haven't.

Why do you object to calling it what it is?
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Spending big (or as you phrase it, "buying success") can be distinguished from youth development, OR, as is the case for United, it can be used in conjunction with youth development. It certainly does not have to be distinguished from "coaching or reliance on a good scouting and transfer negotiation system".

I don't object to "calling it what it is", I object to your implication that it's somehow a negative to spend cash. You're very blinkered in your approach to this topic.
 
jungledrums said:
Spending big (or as you phrase it, "buying success") can be distinguished from youth development, OR, as is the case for United, it can be used in conjunction with youth development. It certainly does not have to be distinguished from "coaching or reliance on a good scouting and transfer negotiation system".

I don't object to "calling it what it is", I object to your implication that it's somehow a negative to spend cash. You're very blinkered in your approach to this topic.
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It's not negative, it's just not as satisfying as other approaches IMO. I also think it's relative impact is declining in the Prem, because many clubs now have access to far more money than before.

Yes, attempting to buy success can be used in conjunction with other approaches, but it still remains distinct from them. And in United's case I'm simply pointing out that it's been the main approach (i.e. the one most emphasised) since Fergie stepped down, as the net spend figures show.
 
We'veGotDeleAlli said:
:eek:
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Well, I'm not going to predict otherwise just because of the rivalry ... just giving my honest view. They came 2nd last time, are unlikely to face a Leicester miracle this time around, have a settled squad and manager, have signed Xhaka and will probably improve their squad more before the windows shuts.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Well, I'm not going to predict otherwise just because of the rivalry ... just giving my honest view. They came 2nd last time, are unlikely to face a Leicester miracle this time around, have a settled squad and manager, have signed Xhaka and will probably improve their squad more before the windows shuts.
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Do you actually think they'll win the league?

Their best chance was last season, they blew it. They didn't even get remotely close. Leicester might not be as good but City, United and Chelsea will all have improved.

We may have finished behind them last season, but we at least came somewhat close to challenging Leicester at times. The only reason we finished behind them was because our heads went after drawing the Chelsea game. And I don't think we'll get close to the title next season, so I don't see how they're going to win it having only signed Xhaka.
 
We'veGotDeleAlli said:
Do you actually think they'll win the league?

Their best chance was last season, they blew it. They didn't even get remotely close. Leicester might not be as good but City, United and Chelsea will all have improved.

We may have finished behind them last season, but we at least came somewhat close to challenging Leicester at times. The only reason we finished behind them was because our heads went after drawing the Chelsea game. And I don't think we'll get close to the title next season, so I don't see how they're going to win it having only signed Xhaka.
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I'd put it differently, and say that City and United might improve, rather than "will". With each having many squad changes and a new playing style to embed, there's no telling how long it will take for things to gel. Like Spurs, Arsenal won't have that problem and in my view that counts for quite a lot.

Chelski will improve, but then it would be almost impossible for them not to considering their drop of nine places last season.

I agree with your comments about Spurs - it all went south after failing to beat Chelski and in the process losing both Dembele and Alli to suspensions, even tho' ordinarily an away draw at Stamford bridge would be a decent result.
 
GlastonSpur said:
1. Arsenal
2. City
3. Spurs
4. Liverpool or United

This may change before the window is nearly closed and the season about to kick off
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You think City will definitely be in top 4 but not United? Why so? Our business has been very good so far.
 
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