The Spurs thread | 2016-2017 season | Serious thread - wummers/derailers will be threadbanned

Will Spurs finish in top 4 in the upcoming season?

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Nothing is a given. There'd be no point discussing anything if we could only speak about "givens". Mourinho may fail, but I don't believe that for a moment. Can you objectively look at our current team, and our general state as a club, and say that there aren't obvious signs that we are moving forward? You cannot also disregard Mourinho's brilliance. I'm not saying we exclude his Chelsea debacle, it's obviously relevant and worth consideration, but it's outside his norm.

We've signed* three world class players (arguably), and in Bailly, a hugely promising youngster to go with our existing youth talents. Clearly the club still has massive pull. So yes, anything is "possible", but we obviously have to weigh up the likelihood of our predictions. I'm rambling on now but essentially my point is that United are showing clear signs of improvement.
*Pogba obviously hasn't signed but it looks a certainty now.
Fair enough and I'm not suggesting we only speak in givens or certainties, but I also think the nature of transfers and new players in new leagues and new managers inherently implies uncertainty, even if those players have a history of success elsewhere and the manager has also succeeded in the past. Van Gaal was a successful manager with a proven track record. That ended up going horribly wrong. Are Mourinho and Van Gaal the same? Of course not, but they both have a failed tenure in their recent past. Di Maria is a fantastic player and was a huge signing for you. That also went south pretty quickly. Zlatan and Mhhitaryan are fantastic players and would seem to be sure things to succeed at United. But recent history tells us that fantastic players have come here and failed miserably.

Again, I'm not saying that's what's going to happen. In fact, I believe it's more likely everything works out and the season is a success. But when you talk about being on a "clear upward trajectory" there needs to be more evidence than just new signings and a new manager, especially when you consider United's recent history with splashy signings and new big name managers. What's that phrase about forgetting history and then having it repeat itself?? That's all I'm saying. Optimism is perfectly fine, but given recent events like those I've referenced isn't it better if it were cautious optimism? For the record I feel the same way about Spurs.
 
Fair enough and I'm not suggesting we only speak in givens or certainties, but I also think the nature of transfers and new players in new leagues and new managers inherently implies uncertainty, even if those players have a history of success elsewhere and the manager has also succeeded in the past. Van Gaal was a successful manager with a proven track record. That ended up going horribly wrong. Are Mourinho and Van Gaal the same? Of course not, but they both have a failed tenure in their recent past. Di Maria is a fantastic player and was a huge signing for you. That also went south pretty quickly. Zlatan and Mhhitaryan are fantastic players and would seem to be sure things to succeed at United. But recent history tells us that fantastic players have come here and failed miserably.

Again, I'm not saying that's what's going to happen. In fact, I believe it's more likely everything works out and the season is a success. But when you talk about being on a "clear upward trajectory" there needs to be more evidence than just new signings and a new manager, especially when you consider United's recent history with splashy signings and new big name managers. What's that phrase about forgetting history and then having it repeat itself?? That's all I'm saying. Optimism is perfectly fine, but given recent events like those I've referenced isn't it better if it were cautious optimism? For the record I feel the same way about Spurs.
Yes, of course there is uncertainty, that's why I made an objective observation that United are on a clear upward trajectory. Van Gaal and Mourinho are hardly comparable, as you yourself note, so I won't dwell on that comment. Di Maria's circumstances are nothing like the circumstances surrounding the players you compare him to, so again, the comparison has very little relevance, however for arguments sake, I will justify my point of view. Di Maria was actually very good for a while, and ended the season contributing the most amount of assists. His issue(s) lay in the fact that he did not want to be at United, he was not used correctly by Van Gaal (as he himself noted in an interview), and that he was/is mentally weak. Van Gaal is gone, and Zlatan and Mkhitaryan (and Pogba) by all reports WANT to be at United, so evidently much has changed. You are ignoring the obvious changes that have occurred, brushing over the clear differences between the circumstances surrounding the aforementioned players, and you're now generalising based on one or two past incidences. Is that fair?

To address your other point, I wholeheartedly disagree that a new manager and new signings are not enough to make the observation I made. You cannot lump all our "big name" signings into the same basket, as I've been trying to stress. They are individual situations which should be looked at individually. On face value, Pogba and Di Maria are similar only in that they are both very expensive signings. Just because they are both "big name signings", doesn't mean that we should be wary that Pogba will flop. Mourinho did not stop becoming a fantastic manager, other circumstances led to his downfall at Chelsea (Medical staff etc). Again, this is not a problem present at United! Your sample size on all of your points is just too small to draw conclusions. Yes, a player/manager can flop, but that does not mean future players/managers will flop.

I do see the merit in much of what you're saying, but by your astonishingly strict conditions, speculation should only occur when the result is all but certain. We are on a clear upward trajectory, I maintain that, but I have never stated that the possibility of failure isn't real. It is of course cautious optimism, I'd have thought that was a given. It is not certain United will improve, but it looks VERY likely.
 
Has the best team in England even won a pre-season game yet?

Yes, two of them, but only you are calling Spurs the best team in England.

In the latest friendly today, we lost 0 - 1 (or 1- 0, whichever you prefer), but hit the woodwork several times. The MoTm was Oblak, their GK. Spurs started with two of our first XI and many academy players, and finished with 9 academy graduates on the pitch, whilst Altetico Madrid started with 8 players who featured in the CL final against Real Madrid.

The young 'uns did good.
 
10 years ago is not "now". Timeline 101.
8 times in the last 10 years is not "10 years ago". Funny you talk endlessly about "the trends" & fail to grasp the basics about it. Pretty embarrassing for an expert like yourself, even Paul Merson high on coke would do better than you at this.

So let's try it your way, once in two years is par for course? 50-50 is par for course?

It's like us saying, Spurs winning feck all in terms of trophies while united winning trophies is par for course! (Holds true to your "Now" definition and for the decade too).
 
Yes, two of them, but only you are calling Spurs the best team in England.

In the latest friendly today, we lost 0 - 1 (or 1- 0, whichever you prefer), but hit the woodwork several times. The MoTm was Oblak, their GK. Spurs started with two of our first XI and many academy players, and finished with 9 academy graduates on the pitch, whilst Altetico Madrid started with 8 players who featured in the CL final against Real Madrid.

The young 'uns did good.
So what you're saying is that you lost?
 
So, once in two years is par for course? 50-50 is par for course?
It's like us saying, Spurs winning feck all in terms of trophies while united winning trophies is par for course! (Holds true to your "Now" definition and for the decade too).

You've now moved on to telling part of the recent truth as far the league is concerned, so that's progress, tho' still not quite the whole truth. But I'm confident you'll get there in the end.
 
You've now moved on to telling part of the recent truth as far the league is concerned, so that's progress, tho' still not quite the whole truth. But I'm confident you'll get there in the end.
OK, so answer the question. Is once in two years par for course? Is twice in 4 years par for course? A 50-50 chance is par for course?
 
No, he is saying they won because they"hit the woodwork" more times than Atletico. Spurs have played two pre-season friendlies so far and lost both:

Juventus 2 - 1 Tottenham
Tottenham 0 - 1 Atletico Madrid.

Your reading and comprehension skills, on the other hand, are not so admirable.
 
OK, so answer the question. Is once in two years par for course? Is twice in 4 years par for course? A 50-50 chance is par for course?

Twice in 3 years is probably around par these days, I'd say. Happy now?
 
Twice in 3 years is probably around par these days, I'd say. Happy now?
:lol: Why three years? Why not two-four or fives years to get a trend?

So, do you agree a) Spurs failing to win anything would be expected and "par for course" b) Selling their best player every 3 years would be par for course? c) United winning more trophies than spurs would be par?
 
Behind the doors friendlies are not accounted for. List the games and results which Spurs have won and were not played Behind the doors.

Lol ... your desperation to re-define a "friendly" is wonderful to behold ... as is your apparent desperation to read so much into Spurs narrowly losing in friendlies against very strong teams against whom we mostly fielded academy players.
 
Lol ... your desperation to re-define a "friendly" is wonderful to behold ... as is your apparent desperation to read so much into Spurs narrowly losing in friendlies against very strong teams against whom we mostly fielded academy players.
So, spurs have not won a game which is not played behind the doors?
In short, spurs are yet to win a meaningful game in the pre-season. :D

Considering Spurs state-of-art academy is the best in the world, one should expect them to beat those teams in pre-season, which fields half-arsed player on holidays.
 
:lol: Why three years? Why not two-four or fives years to get a trend?

So, do you agree a) Spurs failing to win anything would be expected and "par for course" b) Selling their best player every 3 years would be par for course? c) United winning more trophies than spurs would be par?

I don't mind - call it twice in 4 years if you prefer the way it looks. But the further you go back, the less meaning it has because the two squads change more and more out of recognition compared to what they are now. Yep, we're back to that word again.
 
I don't mind - call it twice in 4 years if you prefer the way it looks. But the further you go back, the less meaning it has because the two squads change more and more out of recognition compared to what they are now. Yep, we're back to that word again.
OK, so answer the simple question. Is finishing twice above United in 4 years, par for course? A probability of 0.5 or 50% chance of something happening, "par for course" in your book?
 
So, spurs have not won a game which is not played behind the doors?
In short, spurs are yet to win a meaningful game in the pre-season. :D

Considering Spurs state-of-art academy is the best in the world, one should expect them to beat those teams in pre-season, which fields half-arsed player on holidays.

I'm impressed that you think so highly of our academy players. Even I don't expect them to beat Juve and Atletico teams containing many senior players.
 
OK, so answer the simple question. Is finishing twice above United in 4 years, par for course? A probability of 0.5 or 50% chance of something happening, "par for course" in your book?

Twice in 4 years is less than par now, as I've already intimated. Happy yet?
 
I'm impressed that you think so highly of our academy players. Even I don't expect them to beat Juve and Atletico teams containing many senior players.
I know feck all about your academy, I have read tons about it's world class "state-of-art" training facilities, most elite scouting network & the best rated talent in the world stocked by spurs via your posts here. So, it's obvious to expect them to win a game, if they can't win at-least draw. Best young team in England with the best Manager should do better. Maybe a rude awakening follows in the CL. Europa league in January?
 
I know feck all about your academy, I have read tons about it's world class "state-of-art" training facilities, most elite scouting network & the best rated talent in the world stocked by spurs via your posts here. So, it's obvious to expect them to win a game, if they can't win at-least draw. Best young team in England with the best Manager should do better. Maybe a rude awakening follows in the CL. Europa league in January?

I don't see much connection between (a) a Spurs team that featured 9 academy players during a friendly match; and (b) a Spurs 1st XI playing competitively in the CL.

But I'm content if you do.
 
Twice in 4 years is less than par now, as I've already intimated. Happy yet?
Ok so i suppose you agree that:

a) Spurs finishing above united is not par, and you were talking complete rubbish.
b) As per your trendology, Spurs are not winning a trophy in nearby future. Which is par for course.

c) Spurs points tally in last 4 seasons: 72 points (2012-13), 69 points (2013-14), 64 points (2014-15), 70 points (2015-16). Is it safe to say spurs finishing with less than 75 points would be par for course? Which means, they would never ever be able to mount a title challenge?
 
I don't see much connection between (a) a Spurs team that featured 9 academy players during a friendly match; and (b) a Spurs 1st XI playing competitively in the CL.

So, you are confident spurs first XI would beat Juventus and Atletico (in CL)?

Against Atletico:

Spurs XI: Vorm; Trippier, Walkes, Carter-Vickers, Yedlin; Wanyama, Winks; Lamela, Eriksen, Onomah; Janssen.

9 academy players? hmmm!
 
Ok so i suppose you agree that:

a) Spurs finishing above united is not par, and you were talking complete rubbish.
b) As per your trendology, Spurs are not winning a trophy in nearby future. Which is par for course.

c) Spurs points tally in last 4 seasons: 72 points (2012-13), 69 points (2013-14), 64 points (2014-15), 70 points (2015-16). Is it safe to say spurs finishing with less than 75 points would be par for course? Which means, they would never ever be able to mount a title challenge?

How many times do you want me to say it? I've already said, at least twice, that Spurs finishing above United is IMO now par. I can't help it that you disagree, but your banging on and on about "par" is just tiresome.

As for the rest, why not just wait for the new season and the future to unfold ...
 
Why have we got a Spurs thread? Not going to be much discussion to be had they're just a pretty good side.
 
How many times do you want me to say it? I've already said, at least twice, that Spurs finishing above United is IMO now par. I can't help it that you disagree, but your banging on and on about "par" is just tiresome.

As for the rest, why not just wait for the new season and the future to unfold ...

What is "now par"? :lol:

Why not apply your "now par" logic to the other two points too?
 
So, you are confident spurs first XI would beat Juventus and Atletico (in CL)?

Against Atletico:

Spurs XI: Vorm; Trippier, Walkes, Carter-Vickers, Yedlin; Wanyama, Winks; Lamela, Eriksen, Onomah; Janssen.

9 academy players? hmmm!

9 academy players during the match, yes.

Do you really need to post such desperate stuff? I notice you don't post Atletico's starting line-up.
 
Why have we got a Spurs thread? Not going to be much discussion to be had they're just a pretty good side.
Because they have a midfield even Paul Pogba would find tough to establish himself a starting spot into. They have a state-of-art academy and training facility & the best scouting network in the world. Their academy is supposedly loaded with and producing the top-class talent year after year. They will be one of the wealthiest club in the world when they build their stadium enhanced by the shopping complex, further boosted by the annual NFL game. They do not win any trophy & always finish behind behind arsenal but they have shrewdly assembled the best squad in the league, complimented by the best manager who has also never won anything meaningful.

Also, it's "now par" for them to finish above Manchester United in the league table every season.

There is loads to discuss and talk about this elite squad they have. Get on with the times.
 
:lol: Why three years? Why not two-four or fives years to get a trend?

So, do you agree a) Spurs failing to win anything would be expected and "par for course" b) Selling their best player every 3 years would be par for course? c) United winning more trophies than spurs would be par?
Trends can only be garnered from time periods that portray Tottenham in the best light. It's par for the course.
 
What is "now par"? :lol:

Why not apply your "now par" logic to the other two points too?

Because we began by talking about current par in the league now. If you want to forward-project your opinion about what par for Spurs will be in the future, and including outside of the league competition, then knock yourself out. I'm content to let the future unfold as it will.
 
Trends can only be garnered from time periods that portray Tottenham in the best light. It's par for the course.
So, on the basis of trends gathered in 2007-08, is it safe to say that Tottenham are going to win the Milk Cup every season? we can not call it "now par" but we can call it "new par", shall we?
 
Because we began by talking about current par in the league now. If you want to forward-project your opinion about what par for Spurs will be in the future, and including outside of the league competition, then knock yourself out. I'm content to let the future unfold as it will.
What is the difference between "now par" and "current par"? Are they one and the same thing? How does it work and apply in real life scenarios/situations? You seem to be the subject matter expert, so please explain it in detail with an example & educate others please.
 
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