The Spurs thread | 2016-2017 season | Serious thread - wummers/derailers will be threadbanned

Will Spurs finish in top 4 in the upcoming season?

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Attila said:
I remember Fabregas saying that the PL has more space to work in because of the high speed (and lack of positional discipline) of the game compared to La Liga which is more tactical. So I wouldn't be surprised if there's more space in the PL than the slow tactical Serie A



At 3.15
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I think for a player like Fabregas, that might be true. He's a very intelligent midfielder who is excellent under pressure due to being brought up with Barcelona. I think Pogba's a slightly different player, he loves taking on a shot from range and using his incredible ability to run at the opposition. I don't think the added pressure on the ball will be too much of an issue, just something he will need to adapt to at first. May need to tweak his game slightly.

Serie A is especially slow paced too, more so than La Liga. The older players like Di Natale and Toni can score consistently well in to their 30's as a result of it.
 
BigDub said:
Yeah. The beauty of the Internet.

Not to take this thread too off topic, and maybe I just need to read other threads in greater depth, but I would be curious to know if you (and anyone else really) think there is still a need for United to sign another midfielder? And does the transfer fee for Pogba have any impact at all on the ability to make any additional necessary signings? Not that money is ever really an issue. It would seem Schneiderin taking a big step forward is a huge key in the season to come.
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1) Without sounding arrogant the money won't effect United in the slightest. I think the estimated revenue this term is 510-520m and we aren't involved in the CL. I personally don't care about the Pogba fee as we are living well within our means and finally servicing a key position we have neglected for several years or more. In addition we are getting a player in the right age bracket. If we need/want to spend more we will do but not just for the sake of it.

2) I think Jose has a dilemma. Does he give some of the midfield players who disappointed last season under LvG a chance under his system or does he buy and replace immediately. Herrera and Schneiderlin are very good players but I still think we look best with Carrick in the side which is a worry.

It's pretty hard to know what to do best really given how many good players under performed last season.
 
TheReligion said:
Why? I think oppo fans are dying for him to be a failure but I just can't see it. He's technical, powerful and skilled in possession. He's got ALL of the attributes to succeed in the PL.
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Does he? I don't see any great energy, commitment or willpower in him. From what I've seen he often strolls languidly around the pitch, mostly passing sideways and backwards, and sometimes getting caught in possession. I don't see that he's going to take games by the scruff the neck and impose himself on them: very unlike Modric, or Bale, or Alli and many others whose sheer drive is evident. I suspect he'll will find the Prem a huge shock compared to Serie A.

Moreover, I keep hearing that he can't play well in a midfield 2 unless it's with an out-and-out DM - and his performances alongside Matuidi in the Euros seem to support this view. But United don't have such a DM, so apparently that's one role for Pogba out of bounds straight off the bat. This is unfortunate, seeing as Mourinho prefers a 4-2-3-1 formation. It's also not great to think that this "world class" player apparently needs everything arranging to perfection around him before he can play well.

So where is he going to play? The only seeming option is to drop Rooney, the captain, to make way for Pogba in the AM position. But that will result in a storm of Rooney dissent within your squad ... hardly the best way to get Mourinho's reign underway.

Pogba is a good player, if not very versatile. He's got a very good long range shot, is good in the air, is big and strong and can make powerful, driving runs forward He's also got a few fancy tricks and flicks. But does he have the sudden acceleration of Modric, or the vision, intelligence and passing skills of Modric or Carrick, or the energy, commitment and aggression of Veratti? Not that I've seen.

Yes, he's scored some goals and made some assists - albeit in a weaker league. But then so has Alli last season, at younger age and in a stronger league.

All in all I think that Pogba has been greatly over-hyped. He'll improve United, but not by that much.
 
Vicar of Dibbly said:
Brilliant analysis. Nice to see you give plenty of compelling reasons for your "prediction", and that it isn't based on nothing.
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Why would I even bother repeating what was said and repeated already again and again ? I'll keep it short, others have improved, have gotten better managers than Pochettino and will probably underperform a lot less than last season and champions league could be a problem in terms of squad depth to a team not used to playing to at that level. At best you'll be 4th and possibly 5th but 6th doesn't seem to far fetched.
 
TheReligion said:
1) Without sounding arrogant the money won't effect United in the slightest. I think the estimated revenue this term is 510-520m and we aren't involved in the CL. I personally don't care about the Pogba fee as we are living well within our means and finally servicing a key position we have neglected for several years or more. In addition we are getting a player in the right age bracket. If we need/want to spend more we will do but not just for the sake of it.

2) I think Jose has a dilemma. Does he give some of the midfield players who disappointed last season under LvG a chance under his system or does he buy and replace immediately. Herrera and Schneiderlin are very good players but I still think we look best with Carrick in the side which is a worry.

It's pretty hard to know what to do best really given how many good players under performed last season.
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Thanks for the reply. Agree with you and think the 2nd point is particularly interesting. Carrick is the ever-present and seemingly the default answer for the midfield, but he can't do it forever as you allude to. Will be very interested to see how that situation resolves itself.
 
kouroux said:
Why would I even bother repeating what was said and repeated already again and again ? I'll keep it short, others have improved, have gotten better managers than Pochettino and will probably underperform a lot less than last season and champions league could be a problem in terms of squad depth to a team not used to playing to at that level. At best you'll be 4th and possibly 5th but 6th doesn't seem to far fetched.
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So we've gone from "highly doubt 5th" to "at best 4th and possibly 5th". Might you have been exaggerating a tad in your previous post? Hence the response you received.

Also, people talk about the improvement all these other teams will make with new players and managers, and fair enough that might very well be true. Yet there's seemingly no recognition that Spurs might improve as well, given a settled team, good manager, further experience in an effective system, and good signings to improve depth. Just strikes me as a bit odd.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Does he? I don't see any great energy, commitment or willpower in him. From what I've seen he often strolls languidly around the pitch, mostly passing sideways and backwards, and sometimes getting caught in possession. I don't see that he's going to take games by the scruff the neck and impose himself on them: very unlike Modric, or Bale, or Alli and many others whose sheer drive is evident. I suspect he'll will find the Prem a huge shock compared to Serie A.

Moreover, I keep hearing that he can't play well in a midfield 2 unless it's with an out-and-out DM - and his performances alongside Matuidi in the Euros seem to support this view. But United don't have such a DM, so apparently that's one role for Pogba out of bounds straight off the bat. This is unfortunate, seeing as Mourinho prefers a 4-2-3-1 formation. It's also not great to think that this "world class" player apparently needs everything arranging to perfection around him before he can play well.

So where is he going to play? The only seeming option is to drop Rooney, the captain, to make way for Pogba in the AM position. But that will result in a storm of Rooney dissent within your squad ... hardly the best way to get Mourinho's reign underway.

Pogba is a good player, if not very versatile. He's got a very good long range shot, is good in the air, is big and strong and can make powerful, driving runs forward He's also got a few fancy tricks and flicks. But does he have the sudden acceleration of Modric, or the vision, intelligence and passing skills of Modric or Carrick, or the energy, commitment and aggression of Veratti? Not that I've seen.

Yes, he's scored some goals and made some assists - albeit in a weaker league. But then so has Alli last season, at younger age and in a stronger league.

All in all I think that Pogba has been greatly over-hyped. He'll improve United, but not by that much.
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Wasn't there a stat that Pogba won the ball back in the final third more than any other player in the top leagues in Europe?
He also commited the most fouls in Italy last year. That shows hustle.
Not many strollers do that.
Also had the most assists in Italy last year. Unless he's passing sideways and backwards for someone to shoot from 30 yards then this post and your analysis is a crock of shit.
 
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Glaston does hit on some potential issues in Pogba in the premiership. But I think he can play in a two in midfield, has been bought for that and not as a 10 so will be clear on that from the off. I also think his skill and athleticism will stand out in that position. Whether it is enough to really up our level as a team is more open for sure.
 
BigDub said:
So we've gone from "highly doubt 5th" to "at best 4th and possibly 5th". Might you have been exaggerating a tad in your previous post? Hence the response you received.

Also, people talk about the improvement all these other teams will make with new players and managers, and fair enough that might very well be true. Yet there's seemingly no recognition that Spurs might improve as well, given a settled team, good manager, further experience in an effective system, and good signings to improve depth. Just strikes me as a bit odd.
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Yep. But we heard the same thing when LvG was appointed. And again when players like di Maria, Schweinsteiger, Falcao etc etc were signed ... top manager, world-class this and world class that. But it didn't amount to much in the end.

However, this time, apparently, there is no doubt. THIS time, every player hailed as world class or a world-class prospect - and there always seem to be rather a lot of them - WILL be great.
 
BigDub said:
So we've gone from "highly doubt 5th" to "at best 4th and possibly 5th". Might you have been exaggerating a tad in your previous post? Hence the response you received.

Also, people talk about the improvement all these other teams will make with new players and managers, and fair enough that might very well be true. Yet there's seemingly no recognition that Spurs might improve as well, given a settled team, good manager, further experience in an effective system, and good signings to improve depth. Just strikes me as a bit odd.
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Not really, I still standby what I said in my original post. Just wanted to give a little more perspective. I just don't rate Spurs at all and expect them to finish 6th if I had to choose one ranking.
 
kouroux said:
Not really, I still standby what I said in my original post. Just wanted to give a little more perspective. I just don't rate Spurs at all and expect them to finish 6th if I had to choose one ranking.
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Fair enough, you're certainly not the only one on here with that opimnion. It's just strange that the reasons are because other teams have gotten better and you don't think Spurs will cope well with the champions league. Doesn't really have anything to do with the quality of the players and not rating them or the manager.

Spurs played some of the best stuff in the league last season, as evidenced even here by many of the posts in the PL match threads. Relentless pressing, solid at the back and plenty of goals. It seems like running out of steam at the end of last season and a poor performance by some of their key players at the Euros has clouded people's views considering just how good the quality of the football was for large portions of last season.
 
BigDub said:
Fair enough, you're certainly not the only one on here with that opimnion. It's just strange that the reasons are because other teams have gotten better and you don't think Spurs will cope well with the champions league. Doesn't really have anything to do with the quality of the players and not rating them or the manager.

Spurs played some of the best stuff in the league last season, as evidenced even here by many of the posts in the PL match threads. Relentless pressing, solid at the back and plenty of goals. It seems like running out of steam at the end of last season and a poor performance by some of their key players at the Euros has clouded people's views considering just how good the quality of the football was for large portions of last season.
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The Euros mean feck all to me tbh. I never consider international football when I look at club football like this. Spurs, like Leicester, will face more pressure and expectation to perform than last season and it is the main reason why I think they won't emulate the same league form. If I'm wrong then I'll gladly accept the mockeries and banter that come with it.
 
kouroux said:
The Euros mean feck all to me tbh. I never consider international football when I look at club football like this. Spurs, like Leicester, will face more pressure and expectation to perform than last season and it is the main reason why I think they won't emulate the same league form. If I'm wrong then I'll gladly accept the mockeries and banter that come with it.
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Thanks for the reply. No mockeries, certainly not from me. Appreciate the debate. I think it's a fair point to question how the pressure that arises from last season's finish will effect Spurs, especially given how young the team is. As a Spurs fan, though, I have full faith in Pochettino to get the players prepared, both physically and mentally, for a compaign where a lot more will be expected of them, both domestically and in Europe. Only time will tell whether that faith is misplaced or not.
 
kouroux said:
Why would I even bother repeating what was said and repeated already again and again ? I'll keep it short, others have improved, have gotten better managers than Pochettino and will probably underperform a lot less than last season and champions league could be a problem in terms of squad depth to a team not used to playing to at that level. At best you'll be 4th and possibly 5th but 6th doesn't seem to far fetched.
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No they haven't improved. They bought players. Those two things are not the same, whether the new players improve the team performances remains to be seen. However, assuming those new players do improve performances, why do you ignore the fact that spurs have also bought players that will improve their performances? Rather one sided view you have.
 
kouroux said:
The Euros mean feck all to me tbh. I never consider international football when I look at club football like this. Spurs, like Leicester, will face more pressure and expectation to perform than last season and it is the main reason why I think they won't emulate the same league form. If I'm wrong then I'll gladly accept the mockeries and banter that come with it.
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So will United, Chelsea and City ... all the more so considering the money spent, and even more so for United since another season outside top 4 will mean a big loss of sponsor money. Why are they all going to cope with it and not Spurs?
 
GlastonSpur said:
So will United, Chelsea and City ... all the more so considering the money spent, and even more so for United since another season outside top 4 will mean a big loss of sponsor money. Why are they all going to cope with it and not Spurs?
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How much do united lose in sponsorship?
 
My issue with @GlastonSpur is that he is obviously one of those people who would be saying how amazing a signing Pogba would be if joining Spurs.

His hatred for United is quite something.
 
Moonred said:
Salty.
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I know, isn't it shocking? How could you be with such great thread contributions like this?

I certainly don't agree with all of the opinions being expressed by Spurs fans in this thread, and I think some do really miss the mark, but I also think in some cases passionate strong opinions are being confused with being "salty" or whatever it is. The primary example, which I have yet to see a valid response to, is why are all of these other teams with new managers and new players going to make massive steps forward yet there is seemingly no recognition that Spurs might also improve as a side? If you read a lot of posts from non-Spurs fans in this thread it seems as if there is a zero percent chance that Spurs will get any better. I don't quite understand that. There seems to be no value placed on a team's consistency and continuity year-over-year. When in reality the best way to improve is to capture the positives from the past season and build it up from there. That, to me, is what Spurs are doing this off season. And I think it will be more effective than many seem to be willing to admit.
 
Spurs are a good side with a good manager.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. This Spurs side bottled the league last season. In the end they couldn't even manage to finish above Arsenal.

What about Utd then, you ask? We knew we were shite yet still managed to finish on level points with City AND won the FA Cup.

Until this Spurs side win a major trophy, they're still the Spurs we all know too well. We can talk about balance sheets, new stadiums and who had the best players but the ultimate goal is winning silverware - and Spurs have to prove that they can achieve this because as things stand, they haven't won feck all of note since I can remember.
 
cyberman said:
Wasn't there a stat that Pogba won the ball back in the final third more than any other player in the top leagues in Europe?
He also commited the most fouls in Italy last year. That shows hustle.
Not many strollers do that.
Also had the most assists in Italy last year. Unless he's passing sideways and backwards for someone to shoot from 30 yards then this post and your analysis is a crock of shit.
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Is it? We shall see how "world class" Pogba actually is in due course.

By the way, committing the most fouls is not a great stat to cite. Nor does it necessarily show good "hustle" or the absence of "strolling" - it might just show a tendency to hack players down.

And the most assists in Italy last year (well, joint-most, with Panjic, Pogba's replacement at Juve)! That's verging world class just by itself. And almost as many assists as Eriksen got in the Prem too!
 
GlastonSpur said:
Does he? I don't see any great energy, commitment or willpower in him. From what I've seen he often strolls languidly around the pitch, mostly passing sideways and backwards, and sometimes getting caught in possession. I don't see that he's going to take games by the scruff the neck and impose himself on them: very unlike Modric, or Bale, or Alli and many others whose sheer drive is evident. I suspect he'll will find the Prem a huge shock compared to Serie A.
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There is so much wrong and rubbish about Pogba in the first paragraph itself, I doubt any rational person would read the rest of the post. This reads like a propaganda post.
 
Red Bug said:
Spurs are a good side with a good manager.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. This Spurs side bottled the league last season. In the end they couldn't even manage to finish above Arsenal.

What about Utd then, you ask? We knew we were shite yet still managed to finish on level points with City AND won the FA Cup.
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Who's is getting ahead of themselves? I've yet to see a Spurs fan predict we'll win the league or anything like that. How is saying we'll finish top 4 getting ahead of ourselves? Considering we just did it last season. In terms of bottling the league, can you really say we bottled it considering we were never at the top of the table? We certainly whimpered out of the race, but how can you bottle something you never actually have? In terms of finishing 2nd, we definitely bottled that. There's no reason why Arsenal should have finished ahead of us. We had a terrible end to the season and it really stymied what was otherwise a great campaign for us. There's no doubt about that. We still played some of the best stuff in the league for large portions of last season. Should Spurs fans just forget all about that because we had a couple games at the end where we played shite? The players got worn out. That was clear. But we're more experienced and, hopefully, with signings like Janssen and Wanyama, deeper. That will help combat the fatigue or let down in performance as the league season wears on and as we continue to fight in Europe. We still need another signing or two to ensure this, but I like the track we're heading down. There are many reasons why the future is bright for Spurs, whether those are acknowledged by others on here or not.
 
TheReligion said:
How much do united lose in sponsorship?
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I gather that the Adidas money would drop by 30% if United don't make top 4 this season - so that would be loss of £22.5m for each year outside the top 4.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Is it? We shall see how "world class" Pogba actually is in due course.

By the way, committing the most fouls is not a great stat to cite. Nor does it necessarily show good "hustle" or the absence of "strolling" - it might just show a tendency to hack players down.

And the most assists in Italy last year (well, joint-most, with Panjic, Pogba's replacement at Juve)! That's verging world class just by itself. And almost as many assists as Eriksen got in the Prem too!
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I guess his high rate of winning the ball back in the final third is what? Hopefully sticking his strolling leg out in hope every time he encounters the ball mid stroll?
If he is just hacking it means he isn't fecking strolling about. I mean only Vidal averaged more tackles than Pogba in 2015 but hey...that strolling about and lack of drive huh?
I guess Eriksen was only passing the ball sideways and backwards as well if he could only match Pogba's assist record..Pogba's first ever season as a number 10 btw.
 
cyberman said:
I guess his high rate of winning the ball back in the final third is what? Hopefully sticking his strolling leg out in hope every time he encounters the ball mid stroll?
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He is clearly talking out of his backside when he says Pogba makes more sideways & bakward passes than Alli, has less Drive & does not take games by the scruff of the neck
You can bet your bottom dollar that he has not watched Pogba for 5 games outside the Euros. Here is a relevant passing comparison to put things into perspective.

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Red Bug said:
My issue with @GlastonSpur is that he is obviously one of those people who would be saying how amazing a signing Pogba would be if joining Spurs.

His hatred for United is quite something.
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Not for £100m + massive wages I wouldn't. Besides, we already have Alli, who's shown more than Pogba did at the same age.
 
baanke laal said:
He is clearly talking out of his backside when he says Pogba makes more sideways & bakward passes than Alli, has less Drive & does not take games by the scruff of the neck
You can bet your bottom dollar that he has not watched Pogba for 5 games outside the Euros. Here is a relevant passing comparison to put things into perspective.
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I have not cited any relevant stats comparison for Pogba vs Alli beyond assists and goals scored, so where you get this invented claim from is anyone's guess.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Not for £100m + massive wages I wouldn't. Besides, we already have Alli, who's shown more than Pogba did at the same age.
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We have Marcus Rashford who showed more than Harry Kane ever showed at that age. I am glad we dodged that bullet anyways for the price the baldie would ask for. He had a shit euro anyways, strolled around doing nothing. Overrated player.
 
Kylar Stern said:
Yeah, all those league titles and cup finals he's played in really stand him apart :wenger:
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That's a team achievement, not a Pogba achievement. Moreover, Alli was just 19 years old for most of last season.
 
GlastonSpur said:
I have not cited any relevant stats comparison for Pogba vs Alli beyond assists and goals scored, so where you get this invented claim from is anyone's guess.
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Does he? I don't see any great energy, commitment or willpower in him. From what I've seen he often strolls languidly around the pitch, mostly passing sideways and backwards, and sometimes getting caught in possession. I don't see that he's going to take games by the scruff the neck and impose himself on them: very unlike Modric, or Bale, or Alli and many others whose sheer drive is evident.
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You mentioned it all in the first paragraph of the post, before namedropping the players (Comical Alli being one of them), which was called "crock of shit" by another poster here.
Are you delusional my friend? Or are you shifting the goalposts yet again when countered by real facts?
 
GlastonSpur said:
That's a team achievement, not a Pogba achievement. Moreover, Alli was just 19 years old for most of last season.
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How many times will Spurs win the league in the next 4 seasons do you think? What has Alli actually achieved thus far, a third placed finish? Or if that's a team achievement, nothing?
 
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