If this were a remake draft, and it was built around false 9 messi and could include players he played with, only carlos alberto and puyol would have a hope to get in. And it cannot be stressed any more than it already has been but false 9 messi needed a specific set of players with a specific skillset, playing in a very specific style and formation.
The Road Trip Draft R1: Enigma/TRV vs Arbitrium
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
The fact of the matter is we have one manager here playing from a pure tactical perspective and another saying " I have the better players up top" and just relying on the names to get them votes.
Bloody hell... what the feck does that mean?
Some of my previous posts looking to enlighten people on Schiaffino, not with my words but those of Gianni Brera and his biographer (yes, a football pundit and expert so good he had a biographer, not the morons on TV and Twitter today):
FOOTBALL THROUGH THE EYES OF GIANNI BRERA
(where I don’t use direct quotes I’m paraphrasing/summarising what is a bunch of very long articles written in 1954 and thereafter)
"The most beautiful game I've ever seen played, I learned more in those two hours than in twenty years of playing and being a football critic". That’s how Gianni Brera, the legendary Editor of La Gazetta dello Sport, referred to what he regarded as the greatest game in history: the 1954 World Cup Semifinal between Uruguay and Hungary.
"It was a drama full of competitiveness, full of epic moments in every nook and cranny. It wasn’t a football game... it was a planetary event, two empires clashing. In my eyes, the top technical and competitive game, the most beautiful in the world. It was a compendium of football played until then, and thereafter”.
On the one hand Hungary’s Aranycsapat (Golden Team), one of the greatest teams of all time, it’s spine straight out of Honved Budapest, the army team:
Bozsik, Czibor, Kocsis... gathered around a genuine star like Ferenc Puskas.
Hungary played a kind of total football ahead of its time, they adopted a 3-2-3-2 tactical formation which involved continuous movement to create consistently superior numbers. It was one of the first attempts in which players moved as one body in a compact game with everyone doing pretty much everything. Puskas’ Hungary is where the roots of Cruyff’s Netherlands, Sacchi’s Milan and Guardiola’s Barcelona can be traced back to.
The Magyars were the best Europe had to offer. Unbeaten in four years, they had reached a momentous peak when they beat England at Wembley 6-3. The game could easily have ended 14-3. It was like time stood still and the Hungarians had arrived from the future and invented, step by step, a football never seen before.
In front of them that afternoon, were the wonderful Uruguayans: the incumbent World Champions, unbeaten in international competitions since their first game at the 1924 Olympics. They were the heroes of the Maracanazo, the biggest collective shock in the history of sports. In 1950, they had won the World Cup against Brazil at the Maracanã, in front of two hundred thousand spectators, a capacity never again achieved at any stadium for a football match. The game left a trail of 34 suicides and 56 heart attacks in its wake.
If there had ever been until then a school of football that could blend fantasy and extreme concreteness, innate tactical wisdom and containment effort, this was the Uruguayan’s. The Brazilians were more eye-catching but tactically inferior, that’s why they lost 2-1. But the Maracanazo didn’t come out of nowhere like the Magyars. Uruguay’s style was developed in the twenties and thirties, when a small country of just over two million inhabitants had won two Olympics in a row and the first World Cup, which they organised. “These beautiful Uruguayans could claim to be the fathers of football, because everyone knows England is the mother”.
Abbadie scores the 7th vs. Scotland, assisted by Varela
"The fulcrum of the team was none other than Juan Alberto Schiaffino, Il Pepe, who along with Ghiggia and Varela had silenced those two hundred thousand fans. Most important to us in Italy, he was the best player in the world and he had just signed for Milan. He would go on to revolutionise our calcio".
Hungary arrived at the meet having beaten South Korea 9-0, West Germany 8-3, and Brazil 4-2. Uruguay had lost several players to injury, including the captain Varela after the 4-2 quarter final against England. It didn’t bode well for them that their frontline, Schiaffino aside, had evaporated along with their captain. It was simple, they couldn’t possibly win.
At the beginning of the second half, Hungary is already 2-0, a result that would undermine anyone. Yet something strange happens: the Uruguayans defended the defeat. They do not throw themselves furiously to the attack; they do not change their patterns or their game. While other teams would open up and take risks that spell their inevitable doom, they continue to wait for the rival’s advances, even if time is running out... A remarkable winning choice, as thanks to their counter-attack, the Celeste can equalise with two goals from Hohberg and, in the final seconds, should have achieved a resounding victory when Schiaffino’s shot was stopped by nothing other than a muddy goalmouth.
___________
Hohberg's goals, assisted by Schiaffino
"Over the years I would witness time and again that remarkable quality in Schiaffino: the power of synthesis. He would poke and probe, test every component of a defence, every combination of defensive players, observe their instinctive reactions, what made them uncomfortable, how they made decisions, and then he computed it all and drew conclusions. Once he did, he would know how to tear up any defence. In the course of his testing his team often scored, but if they didn’t, you knew Schiaffino was building up more knowledge on the rival defence than even they or their manager had. He would wait for half-time, and then after it he would unleash his learning upon his helpless victims. Both that Uruguay team and Milan could completely turn a game around in a second half thanks to the God of Football".
The game goes into extra time and the Uruguayans get within touching distance of victory. But they hit the post, twice. Then Andrade goes out injured and the gameplan falls apart: Kocsis scores twice and Hungary are in the final.
From his biographer:
Uruguay lost, but the next day Brera published on the "Gazzetta dello Sport" a nine-column tribute to the defeated team. He explained why, while seeing them play and within touching distance of victory twice, he had been able to reach "full maturity" on all things football.
Everything Brera wrote later on catenaccio, the defensiveness or the deep spirit of Italian football, derives largely from that game and the reflections that it prompted.
You could say that Italian football in the sixties, seventies and eighties - so deeply influenced by the pen of Brera – largely resulted directly or indirectly from the sublime Uruguayan school. It derives from that game. Not just the most beautiful game of all time, but also a clash between different worlds and cultures, between two different ways to adapt to history and its events.
It was all triggered by how the under-strength and exhausted Uruguayans continued to "defend the defeat", not giving up on a counter attack or deviating from their gameplan in the face of adversity. In that act of extreme heroism in front of an athletically superior juggernaut, Brera glimpsed everything there was to know about football and on adapting its endless combinations. While you may prefer other styles, it is difficult to deny that the greatest succeses of Italian football were achieved by playing like that all the way to the 2006 World Cup triumph.
ATTACK
SCHIAFFINO – Il Regista del Diavolo (the Devil's Regista)
“God has reserved the distribution of two or three small things which cannot be attained or countered by all the gold in the hands of the powerful ones: genius, beauty, happiness". When Gautier wrote these words in 1856 he could not know Juan Alberto Schiaffino, he could not know that this definition would fit perfectly. In the years of Liedholm the number ten is divided between the shoulders of the Baron and those, more slender and graceful, of "Pepe" Schiaffino.
God had given him a gift, a privilege: that of genius. Gianni Brera, still considered the greatest Italian football expert, thought as much:
Gianni Brera said:
Those who had the good fortune of seeing him play remember him, decades later and without a shadow of the slightest doubt, as the best player they have seen. Most of these refer to the final of the European Cup in 1958 as the game that settled it: Di Stefano, Puskas and Schiaffino were all on show and Milan lost 3-2 against Real Madrid, but it was Schiaffino, now thirty-four, who stole the show. Differently from the previous two, he had also won a World Cup, in memorable circumstances. After that game the Brazilian coach had only one thing to say: "Schiaffino was the unexpected that silenced all our ambition". From that day, Uruguayans had called him “el Dios del Futbol” (the God of Football).
Eduardo Galeano said:
Cesare Maldini said:
Arrigo Sacchi said:
Schiaffino was a universal midfielder, he could do everything and read ahead the development of the game. He didn’t chase the ball, the ball ran towards him. Which brings us to another characteristic: he was silent, inscrutable but possessed an immense confidence in his own abilities, which often made him a bit stubborn and lippy. He was once suspended for five games after signalling at a ref with his hands that he was on the take, in front of the entire stadium.
He was also the only player known to talk back at captain Varela. The competitive tension between those two was the stuff of legend. One synthesised defensive play, the other synthesised attacking play, so it often resulted in orders/directives being barked in either direction. In 1950, during the final against Brazil and with the game still at 0:0, Varela demanded Schiaffino stopped fannying around the frontline testing defenders and made a more disciplined defensive effort by picking up a certain Brazilian player. “When you can pass the ball to me like I pass the ball to you I’ll take orders on my positioning”, he replied. Then against England in 1954, after Schiaffino moaned about poor service from the centrebacks Varela barked back “Take a woman” (basically, have a shag and chill the feck out).
Of course, there was nothing other than immense respect between the two, with Obdulio having overseen the formation and coming of age of the Death Squad. Schiaffino’s older brother, Raúl (NT and Peñarol forward) brought him to the club aged 16, and he tore up the reserves. As Raúl insisted he should be promoted, Varela argued the opposite: “they are very promising, but like a good wine we must let them come of age. Juan is ahead of the others, with the seniors he will be behind... and then they will be gone, and he will be alone. Let him stay with that frontline that’s forming around him and bring them all up when they are ready”. The outcome: he got his first cap aged 18, before even playing for Peñarol’s first team, but when he finally got promoted he no longer was a talented skinny little kid. He was boss, and went on to win five national titles and score 88 goals in 227 games.
From an early age he was considered a football intellectual, but one that didn’t only theorise, compute and resolve in an abstract way: he could also execute in practice. He was the tactical and technical conscience of the teams he played for. He was an enemy of football dogmas and conventional wisdom, like the one establishing the forwards should wait for the ball or that anticipation was only a defensive recourse. He was a pioneer of one-touch play, which better helped exploit the fact he was several seconds ahead of anyone on the pitch. His preeminence was based on his power of discernment, his serene impartiality that allowed him not to get dragged by the urgencies and pressures of the match. He wasn’t affected by temporary adversity, the importance of getting a result, the clock running or the urgency cascading from the stands. A footballing Spartan.
When in 1984 the Italian Federation’s Coversiano Technical Centre consulted the Serie A managers on who had been the greatest foreign player in Serie A all but two responded: Schiaffino. He left an indelible mark not just through his football, but other innovations he brought about:
1. Brera credits him as the one introducing the slide tackle in Italy. This must be some translation issue I suppose, it must be some very specific form of slide tackle surely. But he does mention how referees weren’t used to it so erroneously whistled foul.
2. He pushed for changes to how Milanello was run regarding admission of women and clearly defined schedules for training and resting.
3. Upon joining Roma, aged 35 and without the physical conditioning he used to possess, he applied his intact brain and football intelligence playing between the defence and the goalkeeper: and thus the role of libero was born. Rumour has it that he was impassable.
@antohan everything I just read there makes me think that him being an orchestrator seems like a good idea...?
Yes, you are just not very good at making the point
It's a disservice to just say "as good as anyone"Yes, you are just not very good at making the point
Ahhhh got ya.
Off to sleep and not sure if I’ll be active before the end. Just watched some Ronaldinho videos, and I can actually see him getting in messi’s way. He operated all over the final third during his peak, and I’m just not sure what his role is if it’s peak false 9 messi.
This game is as good an example as it gets of names overshadowing tactics.
Enigmas tactics are to let messi run the show in a system that won’t suit him and with players who can’t be what he needs to be at his best.
My tactics literally utilize the best parts of all of my players. It’s a team.
It’s also massively disrespectful to the quality of my three most attacking players. One is a serie A legend and a cult hero of 4 of the clubs he has been at. The other two have both won and scored in World Cup finals.
Crespo, Kempes and Schiaffino are significantly more likely to click here.
This game is as good an example as it gets of names overshadowing tactics.
Enigmas tactics are to let messi run the show in a system that won’t suit him and with players who can’t be what he needs to be at his best.
My tactics literally utilize the best parts of all of my players. It’s a team.
It’s also massively disrespectful to the quality of my three most attacking players. One is a serie A legend and a cult hero of 4 of the clubs he has been at. The other two have both won and scored in World Cup finals.
Crespo, Kempes and Schiaffino are significantly more likely to click here.
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The debase is really tiresome but again Messi had never a problem playing whoever supporting cast he had over the years.
His goal scoring numbers never fluctuated nor he had any personal issues with the players surrounding him.
Both him and Ronaldinho have fanstastic relationship that he and Messi have spoken about numerous times.
Robben in this game can be absolutely devastating making runs between the lines and being at the end of Messi’s through balls, whilst he also can create openings and stretch the defense.
Arbitriums only angle here is that it won’t work because he knows we have much superior front trio, something which is IMO way off the mark.
His goal scoring numbers never fluctuated nor he had any personal issues with the players surrounding him.
Both him and Ronaldinho have fanstastic relationship that he and Messi have spoken about numerous times.
Robben in this game can be absolutely devastating making runs between the lines and being at the end of Messi’s through balls, whilst he also can create openings and stretch the defense.
Arbitriums only angle here is that it won’t work because he knows we have much superior front trio, something which is IMO way off the mark.
I think this would be a game where we will have more of the ball as the opposition would sit back. The manager even said he relieved Carlos and Alves from defensiv duties which means more space for our attacking unit and wing backs to occupy.I have read lots and lots of talk about personnel and it has gotten a bit tiresome for me. I still can't decide who to vote for so I hope someone could help me out in saying how they envisage the match playing out. Who is having the lion share of possession, who is playing on the counter? Is it a fast paced exchange of blows going from box to box, is there someone who has a interest in calming down the match to pick out the right moment for a decisive pass? Is someone pressing the ball higher up the field to have more of the ball and stop attacks before they get dangerous?
These kind of questions are interesting to me and would give the discussion a badly needed change of direction I think.
I can see here Messi with his movement going trough the lines and pulling his CB’s out of position like he did vs Real creating numerous alleys for Ronaldinho and Robben to exploit.
This is also prime Messi so he will pressi back when we lose the ball and generally when we lose the ball we can quickly change shape to 5-3-2. Facchetti and Carlos Alberto will no doubt participate in the build up and I can see many fouls around the penalty area which both Ronaldinho and Messi can convert.
If we convert a goal first we will have many opportunities on counter and given the finishing ability, raw pace and openings it will create when the opposition is chasing the score I’d say we have enough to decide the game.
The thing is Robben, Ronaldinho, Messi operating through the lines are great technically can play the one twos Messi is known for and are on the same wavelength.
This is before I mention we also have the superior keeper who also can be proven to make a difference in the game.
That would be such a shame since you have a realistic chance of breaking Enigma's record with a number of posts from the semi-final with Moby.
Something I thought never will be broken. Let alone so quickly.
Enigma brings it out of people!
I also had by far the longest debate when we met. Can't be a coincidence!
Honestly did not enjoy reading this somewhat repetitive sounding debate. I feel like I'm watching a match between two really good sides on TV, but the stupid cameraman decides to focus more on Mourinho and Pep standing on the sidelines yelling and waving their arms at each other. I mean, it was entertaining for the first 10 minutes, but the remaining 80 minutes were a bit of a drag.
I feel you
Nah, stopped responding at some point last night. Sometimes as much as you can do when in defensive position or with all the repetitive stuff.
Don’t think I’ll go into this whirlwind on the subject till the rest of the game so as far I’m concerned the record is safe
Usually, hate long debates, but for some weird reason loved this one (was in a good mood last night, so it probably helped). I mean at one stage it got to the point where there was absolutely zero informative things you could take from it with some absolute classics:
I bolded it, italicized it and changed colour because of how completely pointless this is.
Pogba and lukaku have spoke many times about their budding bromance, and its clicked on the pitch a grand total of about 3 times.
You’ve failed time and time again to grasp the spirit of this draft. Prime Ronaldinho and slightly older messi might well have been the greatest Brargentina friendship of all time off the field, but on the field Ronaldinho is going to wonder why he’s been reduced to what for him would feel like a supporting cast role.
You have 3 players who at their best all NEEDED to be the main man, and only one of them is capable of actually letting the other two be it... only problem is his manager has designated that man be the main man, man.
For all the brutally endless chat from me around this subject, I don’t see many neutrals commenting on their effectiveness as a trio. Messi, robben and Ronaldinho are the shinier names, and so is enigma.
To be honest I didn’t enjoy reading your first comment in the thread which is everything that’s wrong with these drafts. You had made your mind up on enigma before seeing anyone’s tactics because of the names.
Mainly because Lukaku is a turd and not because they have poor chemistry.
I don’t think Arbitrium's defence gets much better - probably Cafu for Alves is the most obvious change I’d make but really looks awesome. Agree with some of his comments and for me I prefer his two fullbacks for a back five offensive role.
That said, I disagree with his arguments on how problematic the offense is for Enigma and TRV. Personally I think it would work fine, Robben seems like he’d pose a danger cutting inside and Ronaldinho has the technical interplay to dovetail with Messi. I take the point that there’s only one ball so maybe not maximising Ronaldinho / Robben to fullest extent but still think it works okay.
The Fontaine shout was interesting, as maybe a pure goal scorer could have meshed better in the trio - but regardless, I think that front three has too much quality and should tip a close game.
That said, I disagree with his arguments on how problematic the offense is for Enigma and TRV. Personally I think it would work fine, Robben seems like he’d pose a danger cutting inside and Ronaldinho has the technical interplay to dovetail with Messi. I take the point that there’s only one ball so maybe not maximising Ronaldinho / Robben to fullest extent but still think it works okay.
The Fontaine shout was interesting, as maybe a pure goal scorer could have meshed better in the trio - but regardless, I think that front three has too much quality and should tip a close game.
You’re right, it does work okay. But against that defence, unless an attack is functioning pretty much perfectly then the defence has to get the nod in a tight game.
Honestly guys what’s the point in having three of the greatest centre backs ever and two of the best wing backs ever against a front line that no one can honestly say is guaranteed to function well enough?
Have any of the voters even considered how well my team would function through the middle and out wide when I have the ball, and then the elite level of movement and finishing I have up top?
I’ve barely even mentioned the goal threat I have from midfield but it’s quite staggering comparitively.
Have any of the voters even considered how well my team would function through the middle and out wide when I have the ball, and then the elite level of movement and finishing I have up top?
I’ve barely even mentioned the goal threat I have from midfield but it’s quite staggering comparitively.
Not sure why it bothered you so much. I read the OP where all the tactics were supposed to be mentioned anyway and voted. I've changed my vote in the past when I felt there were good points raised as the thread went on. I just haven't been convinced enough by the points raised to change my vote yet tbh.
So you agree with the notion that a team built around a false 9 version of messi which doesn’t have;
Industrious, high pressing wingers who will be happy to let messi run the show
Or
A midfield three capable of controlling the game and playing tiki talks
Will win this game?
One team is a tactical mess the other is spot on. If that’s not enough to change a vote nothing is
@Arbitrium you are putting way too much into this mate.
Take Brazil 70 for example - loads of good players that would never work as a team, yet were one of the most coherent teams (and best) of all time.
Fast forward 30 years later - Brazil 2002 - a torn apart team in the dressing room and many issues coming in the WC. Ronaldinho on the right, on paper that would never work? Yet they produced some magnificent football..
Take Brazil 70 for example - loads of good players that would never work as a team, yet were one of the most coherent teams (and best) of all time.
Fast forward 30 years later - Brazil 2002 - a torn apart team in the dressing room and many issues coming in the WC. Ronaldinho on the right, on paper that would never work? Yet they produced some magnificent football..
5 pages? Pfffff... I'm sure I've got past 10.
Anyhow, left yesterday as I was getting rather one-sided given how little was being made of Schiaffino.
This should be done and dusted by now. They weten't know for being great defensively, but I'm sure all of the Magyars have featured in drafts before. Look at how nonchalantly he makes them look like a pub team.
Nice to see a couple of people changing their vote, I hope it’s because the points I raised make sense
This game is everything that’s wrong with drafts and you can all go and feck yourselves. Just joking, good luck in the next round guys!
Not sure why we're talking about tiki-taka at all tbh. I don't think the OP suggests that it's the tactic used. The OP says something like this:
For me that reads as a viable tactic and certainly not tiki-taka.
I agree with your analysis of Robben that he's not ideally suited to play with a false 9. That bit makes sense to me. Ronaldinho on the other hand should be fine with that. The only questionable aspect is whether he'd be able to play second fiddle at times. I just feel he's played with Messi before so there's that synergy there and to me he never seemed like the kind of player who couldn't work with a false 9.
As I said before, I don't feel you have the right defensive combination in midfield unless Baresi steps up into that space. But that isn't the tactic indicated in your OP. You've mostly got Baresi sweeping behind and for me that's the right tactic when you're up against the likes of his attack. As I said, I love your defense, but I think he has a better team in all other areas in my view while his defense isn't useless either. If you had a better midfield or a better attack I'd probably have voted for you.
EDIT: Sorry didn't see that this is over.
Jokes aside, fantastic match. Very close game and could have gone either way
cat is spot on, i lost again
yeah that's why I decided not to play
@Arbitrium good game mate. You had a fantastic defence and was a really tough game that could go either way.
Cat is 100% spot on, although people’s reasons for voting extend far beyond tactical reasons. Of course there are those who would vote for enigma irrespective of my line up, and I doubt anyone would dispute that. And there are those that would vote against me, regardless of who I was playing, and I doubt anyone would dispute that.
This game proves that set up and GOAT defenders mean feck all. They are against a system that no one can conclusively say would work because there are too many doubts over it. But it’s worth nothing.
This game proves that set up and GOAT defenders mean feck all. They are against a system that no one can conclusively say would work because there are too many doubts over it. But it’s worth nothing.
100% my midfield was better. Look at the credentials.
Good man.
Thought you argued really well by the way, takes some going to go toe-to-toe with Enigma.
@Arbitrium
I honestly think you lost because you fecked up not picking Zizou even when he was available that late. Sometimes cohesiveness is not just enough to win games and you need big names to expect voters to think they can own the game against the toughest lot. It's a shame that Makelele who was picked ahead of Zizou didn't get to feature.
I did consider voting for the other team as it was way more balanced at both ends but your team was my favorite throughout the first half of drafting and so was kind of a biased voted.
Kempes/Schiafino/Crespo would'nt be too many people's favorite attacker picks even in a all time draft with a blocked list let alone an unrestricted one. Kempes maybe in a world cup context but hardly outside.
I was also very surprised that you picked Carlos ahead of Rivellino and maybe Rivaldo as well. That was the second time ignoring the final third while drafting and probably where it cost you the game.
Hopefully you take this as a feedback from an observer and not a tirade against your comments. Cheers.
I honestly think you lost because you fecked up not picking Zizou even when he was available that late. Sometimes cohesiveness is not just enough to win games and you need big names to expect voters to think they can own the game against the toughest lot. It's a shame that Makelele who was picked ahead of Zizou didn't get to feature.
I did consider voting for the other team as it was way more balanced at both ends but your team was my favorite throughout the first half of drafting and so was kind of a biased voted.
Kempes/Schiafino/Crespo would'nt be too many people's favorite attacker picks even in a all time draft with a blocked list let alone an unrestricted one. Kempes maybe in a world cup context but hardly outside.
I was also very surprised that you picked Carlos ahead of Rivellino and maybe Rivaldo as well. That was the second time ignoring the final third while drafting and probably where it cost you the game.
Hopefully you take this as a feedback from an observer and not a tirade against your comments. Cheers.
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Yeah don’t get some of the comments, thought the whole point of these was to pick the other team apart and back up your own tactics. I only really had one way of having a go at his team (still think it’s very valid)
This thread is the equivalent of me going 11 and a half rounds jabbing my way to victory and then enigma putting me away with an RMR haymaker