Not in the given set ups IMO.
The Road Trip Draft R1: Enigma/TRV vs Arbitrium
- Thread starter Moby
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Not in the given set ups IMO.
It clearly is what he is implying.
It does, the three frontmen are great individuals but their functioning as a unit is questionable.
From his Inter vs. Barca reference I gather he is sitting deep so it's not that big a deal. It would be more relevant if he were planning to dominate you.
Off the top of my head he switched depending on partner. Typically right when Maldini played CB, for obvious reasons, but certainly played LCB with Stam at RCB.
On the Ronaldinho messi debate worth considering that Dybala doesn't play for Argentina because he occupies the same space and messi, since coming to his peak, has never really "shared" the number ten space with anyone including strikers like ibra who are more 9.5s.
Aye, that's where I think @Arbitrium definitely has a point, Argentina is solid proof that you can't just stick Messi in any side and setup and expect it to work. Agree Goofy-Fontaine-Messi was a better frontline, absolutely no question IMO.
Either Masopust is a Ballon d'Or winner and Kempes is not or the other way round but never both
I don't like to take away the Ballon D'or from someone just because he was great in the same year as Pele or Maradona. Same thing could happen to any other player in history, maybe Messi would have 0 Ballon D'Ors if he played at the same time as Pele? Those guys don't need the Ballon D'Or title to add to their greatness, same with Garrincha and Romario. Kempes is pretty much the only one which legacy gets uplifted quite a bit through Le nouveau palmares, just like the Ballon D'Or elevates Sammer in discussions and retrospective rating.
Those are just my thoughts on this, not sure if that is a bit off-topic and should be discussed at some other point.
Neither Ronaldinho nor Robben are Dubala types tho.
Argentina have many issues and flaws that always Messi seems to get all the fault, which doesn’t serve him very well.
Not really given the opposition tho. We’re playing against a back five. Fontaine would’ve been voided again a Baresi.
Messi in false nine especially given the space between the lines is the best you can get against such set up.
Ronaldinho and Robbin are really well suited to exploit the space and also be at the end of his passes.
In the given matchup Fontaine would’ve taken away from the spark.
Whatever space they find themselves in, you can bet they won’t be skipping past thuram or nesta the way they both skipped past Sergio Ramos.
Its because they simply don’t have the players to replicate the system that gets the best out of messi, and in this game neither do you.
Did you bother to read the quote in the OP for Messi mate?
He scored more than 200 goals at his peak from the time between Ibra and Suarez with different partners and Villa injured.
That different personnel didn’t bother him did it?
Yeah because Messi is one trick pony right?
Clearly not, Barca haven't always played tiki taka and he has been great for them post-Pep... but as a false 9 the entire setup and cast did revolve around him and tiki taka.Yeah because Messi is one trick pony right?
Yeah because Messi is one trick pony right?
I’d encourage you to read my OP too re Messi
That was because he was the focal player of that set up and Pep's sweetheart. It's natural. As you said Messi has been great in different Barca set ups during the years with different cast and not always with Xavi and Messi.
Every manager has his own vision and Pep had one, that doesn't mean that peak Messi has to play with certain cast to star in this game, absolutely no sense.
In other words if we're always replicating the set ups that the players played in would make these drafts a bit pointless.
Barca played tiki taka because it was great fit for all players not just Messi - the opposition sat back, they could recycle possession and had the players in it. Bit it was always Messi that usually did something exceptional to find the goal and not the system he was put into.
Argentina is all another matter as you know. There are many players that underperform there not just Messi and the problem is not the set up or the cast.
What is it then?
Messi's end product at his peak literally didn't matter if he played alongside Pedro or Villa - two completely opposite players, yet you continue to put him in a certain formation for him to shine, frankly I'm sure if you had him in your team your views would be totally different which is normal.
I know you are trying to find digs at our set up as our forward line is clearly much superior to yours but Messi is the last person with a GOAT status that would throw a strop if Robben loses the ball in the same sense Ronnie would feel aggravated he wont receive the ball on counter.
You are continuously missing the point to the point that it’s deliberately obtuse.
Managers, coaching stuff, federation, problems at the very top.
You are mate. Messi played with so many players at Barca and different managers and set ups and his numbers never fluctuated. Why is that then?
Once again completely missing the point. How many different ways do you need to be told that Messi as a false 9 was so great because of the skills of the players in the 433 formation and the fact that they ALL bought in to the tactics and set up. Peak Ronaldinho and peak robben will want to be the stars of the show thus limiting Messi’s ability to perform like he did in the 5-0 game v real or the drubbings of Arsenal.
And once again, Messi has NEVER came close to playing against a defence like this one.
Ronaldinho is levels above David villa. Robben is levels above Pedro. Yet a villa Messi Pedro lineup works better overall.
These drafts are supposed to be about tactics and set up, not fancy names.
Your front three DOESNT WORK.
These drafts are supposed to be about tactics and set up, not fancy names.
Your front three DOESNT WORK.
Some mention of breitners position earlier, here he is having a hell of an effect as a RCM at times in a European cup final. not a question of whether or not he can perform this role.
Haha so you bring in better players it doesn’t work. Good to know
We should pick Pedro next because it’s a proven partnership.
Since Messi can’t work in different circumstances how come his numbers never fluctuated?
If you are pointing fingers the look no forward than Kempes and Crespo who didn’t really shine in different set ups did they?
What’s your main goal scoring threat in Crespo numbers in a season? 20-30?
Messi hits those numbers in December regardless of the supporting cast
He played false 9 for a limited amount of time in a specific set up, which you haven’t replicated, and that’s your problem in this game.
Haha so you bring in better players it doesn’t work. Good to know
We should pick Pedro next because it’s a proven partnership.
Since Messi can’t work in different circumstances how come his numbers never fluctuated?
If you are pointing fingers the look no forward than Kempes and Crespo who didn’t really shine in different set ups did they?
What’s your main goal scoring threat in Crespo numbers in a season? 20-30?
Messi hits those numbers in December regardless of the supporting cast
You are really questioning crespos peak numbers? 26 goals in early 2000’s serie A is every bit as impressive as 38+ goals in modern day La Liga.
Anywho let’s do a player by player comparison leaving out the front three. Individually yours is better, mine undoubtedly function better as a team.
Goalkeepers
Both their nations greatest ever, banks maybe has the edge thanks to a save against Pele
Baresi v sammer = mismatch
Thuram v puyol = mismatch
Nesta v Ferrara= mismatch
Dani Alves v Carlos Alberto= Dani Alves has been phenomenal in different leagues and has way more pedigree at club level but CAT more with the national team. Tie, or only just CAT
Roberto Carlos v Facchetti= tactically in this game Carlos has more impact due to the non requirement of Facchettis attacking capabilities in this game. Defensively the Italian is easily better.
Breitner v Vieira= Breitner is the more well rounded player and way more effective in terms of goal output. Breitner is one of 4 players to score in two World Cup finals.
Masopust v redondo= one is a ballon d’or winner and the greatest player In his countries history and for many one of the best ever in Europe. The other cant claim the same (with regards his continent, obviously). Masopust offensive contribution is significantly more.
So there you have it. There can be no debating that of those 8 match ups I take five of them, and in the eyes of many the full backs would be a draw. Other than your front three, I’d only take banks ahead of any of my selections.
Sure, you have difference makers up top but so do I to some degree. I can easily expect to compensate for that gap though with my defence.
Goalkeepers
Both their nations greatest ever, banks maybe has the edge thanks to a save against Pele
Baresi v sammer = mismatch
Thuram v puyol = mismatch
Nesta v Ferrara= mismatch
Dani Alves v Carlos Alberto= Dani Alves has been phenomenal in different leagues and has way more pedigree at club level but CAT more with the national team. Tie, or only just CAT
Roberto Carlos v Facchetti= tactically in this game Carlos has more impact due to the non requirement of Facchettis attacking capabilities in this game. Defensively the Italian is easily better.
Breitner v Vieira= Breitner is the more well rounded player and way more effective in terms of goal output. Breitner is one of 4 players to score in two World Cup finals.
Masopust v redondo= one is a ballon d’or winner and the greatest player In his countries history and for many one of the best ever in Europe. The other cant claim the same (with regards his continent, obviously). Masopust offensive contribution is significantly more.
So there you have it. There can be no debating that of those 8 match ups I take five of them, and in the eyes of many the full backs would be a draw. Other than your front three, I’d only take banks ahead of any of my selections.
Sure, you have difference makers up top but so do I to some degree. I can easily expect to compensate for that gap though with my defence.
And schiaffino, who has barely been mentioned, was voted the fecking 6th best South American player of the 20th century and the 17th best in the world. He’s definitely better than robben and can arguabky lay claim to being better than Ronaldinho.
What he needed around him was movement and he has it in abundance on the wings, from midfield and definitely up top.
Another example of why my teams set up compliments the skill set of everyone on the pitch.
What he needed around him was movement and he has it in abundance on the wings, from midfield and definitely up top.
Another example of why my teams set up compliments the skill set of everyone on the pitch.
Love it how you stop at both attacks when you are talking about mismatch
Love it how you stop at both attacks when you are talking about mismatch
Did you read the first sentence of the post?
so are you playing in the same exact set up in which he scored 26? As otherwise you are not getting the best of him.
Stopped at undoubtedly one functions better than other because that is in your opinion. To me we have much better attack that also functions better than yours considering the quality and the technical acumen of the three.
Anyway we can agree to disagree mate it’s not like I’m going to convince you as that’s your agenda to win the game so we should leave the voters to decide this.
That season Lazio played 3412 several times with Claudio Lopez just behind, where Kempes would be. They had a number 10 and two wide players. Not that dissimilar to be honest.
The voters will always decide and I’m sure it would be similar numbers even if we were managing the opposite teams.
This is absolutely pointless but, if I may, Pelé himself said the best save against him was from Mazurkiewicz, just not in a World Cup. Mind, Pelé is the sort who may well have mentioned different ones as the best depending on who he was talking to. Banks' is absolutely phenomenal though.
I have read lots and lots of talk about personnel and it has gotten a bit tiresome for me. I still can't decide who to vote for so I hope someone could help me out in saying how they envisage the match playing out. Who is having the lion share of possession, who is playing on the counter? Is it a fast paced exchange of blows going from box to box, is there someone who has a interest in calming down the match to pick out the right moment for a decisive pass? Is someone pressing the ball higher up the field to have more of the ball and stop attacks before they get dangerous?
These kind of questions are interesting to me and would give the discussion a badly needed change of direction I think.
These kind of questions are interesting to me and would give the discussion a badly needed change of direction I think.
I have read lots and lots of talk about personnel and it has gotten a bit tiresome for me. I still can't decide who to vote for so I hope someone could help me out in saying how they envisage the match playing out. Who is having the lion share of possession, who is playing on the counter? Is it a fast paced exchange of blows going from box to box, is there someone who has a interest in calming down the match to pick out the right moment for a decisive pass? Is someone pressing the ball higher up the field to have more of the ball and stop attacks before they get dangerous?
These kind of questions are interesting to me and would give the discussion a badly needed change of direction I think.
Here is a couple of graphics of how it might pan out attacking each other. Me first
His front three is spot on as far as fit is concerned.
Around the turn of the century nobody who watched Argentina regularly would dispute Crespo starting ahead of Batistuta. He was on fire and, IMO, the best striker in the world by a distance (Ronaldo being a permacrock). He sort of lost the nippy side overnight though. It was really weird. Loved him to bits at Parma, superb at Lazio, and then just turned rather average and static. Must have had a bad injury somewhere between 2001-2003 because next thing I knew he was a completely different player, you could tell his mind was quality but the body no longer played along with it so just delivered brief glimpses of his brilliance thereafter.
@Don Alfredo consider the back 3 of juventus of the last few years. Their wing backs dont need to care about defending at times because the 3 central players are so good. now put all those defenders on the best performance enhancing drugs available, and thats my back three. because of the level of security they offer, the rest of my team can get forward when we need to and Schiaffino is as good as anyone to orchestrate in that scenario. There is so much movement around there and at times it will be 7 attacking players v 7 defenders. Flip that over to team enigma and you have 5 attacking players at the most against 7 defenders.
Of course i'm biased, the same way anyone should be about their team. But from a tactical standpoint i dont just think i'd beat this side in real life, I think it would be comfortable. There is too much movement around my side for vieira and redondo to even think about trying to play offensively (even if we give them tiki taka capabilities which they definitely don't have) and my defenders will be winning the ball back so often because thats what all three of them are among the top 10 greatest of all time at doing, winning the ball back. The players they are giving the ball to can hurt anyone.
Of course i'm biased, the same way anyone should be about their team. But from a tactical standpoint i dont just think i'd beat this side in real life, I think it would be comfortable. There is too much movement around my side for vieira and redondo to even think about trying to play offensively (even if we give them tiki taka capabilities which they definitely don't have) and my defenders will be winning the ball back so often because thats what all three of them are among the top 10 greatest of all time at doing, winning the ball back. The players they are giving the ball to can hurt anyone.
I have read lots and lots of talk about personnel and it has gotten a bit tiresome for me. I still can't decide who to vote for so I hope someone could help me out in saying how they envisage the match playing out. Who is having the lion share of possession, who is playing on the counter? Is it a fast paced exchange of blows going from box to box, is there someone who has a interest in calming down the match to pick out the right moment for a decisive pass? Is someone pressing the ball higher up the field to have more of the ball and stop attacks before they get dangerous?
These kind of questions are interesting to me and would give the discussion a badly needed change of direction I think.
Think that's what Masopust and Schiaffino can do out there. Going back to how the midfields worked, I'm not sure they both add up to more than the sum of parts in a regular game, but I'm not seeing a regular game where they trade blows, more Barca vs. Inter with Enigma/TRV being more fast and furious. The presence and availability of not one, but two players capable of keeping a cool head and picking the right pass/move in that context may well be a massive bonus.