Its hard to imagine Robben being an optimal RWF for Messi at F9. Something just doesn't gel there for me.
The Road Trip Draft R1: Enigma/TRV vs Arbitrium
- Thread starter Moby
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we're in a bit different times now tho. CL is the biggest stage,especially when you consider how shit the past couple of WC's have been compared to some of the classics.
You also cant hold the national stage against Redondo due to having a brain dead manager.
Usually games like this are decided by the match winners and we certainly have more in our side.
Some good arguments from @Arbitrium must say.
How can you base your team around a player who shone in a very specific system and formation, with players who had very specific pre-requisites, then replace them with players who embody almost none of those pre-requisites and expect it to function?
We aren't playing tiki taka if that's what you are implying.
So far it's only baseless assumptions on your part, especially the bit about Ronaldinho which doesn't really hold any water.
Breitner and Masopust shined playing alongside a holder - you are using them in their natural roles I presume? Does that mean they won't function together?
Nesta was usually RCB as well, here he's LCB, does that mean he's out of position?
we're in a bit different times now tho. CL is the biggest stage,especially when you consider how shit the past couple of WC's have been compared to some of the classics.
You also cant hold the national stage against Redondo due to having a brain dead manager.
Usually games like this are decided by the match winners and we certainly have more in our side.
This is so untrue. A game can easily be decided by set-up and defensive quality (again see Jose's Inter v pep) and when you have an orchestrator like masopust, a dynamic general like breitner and a genuis like schiaffino getting the ball and then looking for the movement of kempes and crespo, its really not hard to envision me punishing your team through the middle.
Why not? Robben is great at running behind defenders and has played CF quite well for Holland, he would be devasting on the counter being fed by Messi.
yet another tactical element designed to NOT get the best out of Messi. The only reason you would win this game is because Messi Ronaldinho and Robben is much shinier than Crespo, Kempes and Schiaffino even though its not even up for debate which of those 3 would actually work better together.
We had both of those against Messi in those finals and he decided both games with crucial goals.
We had Park instructed to stand before him and he took him to the cleaners before putting it past VDS. Messi is the X Factor here and always I'd back him or the other GOAT's to decide a game.
As I've said in most cases we're looking for those greats to decide the games and usually it's them that they do.
Again, hes NEVER played against quality like Thuram, Nesta and Baresi. Its as close to guaranteeing shutting up shop as it gets.
It is what it is mate. Crespo, Kempes and Schiaffino are nowhere near our attacking unit.
There's absolutely no evidence either of those front trio's would work better as you are defending your team, we're defending ours. Messi and Ronaldinho played together and they were pretty top notch too, so the only 'evidence' that we have is that actually 2 of our front 3 played together and with enormous respect as well.
Our defence compared to Baresi, Thuram and Nesta? Come on. As previously mentioned, if Baresi steps up to deal with Messi, he's probably one of the only players in history even remotely capable of winning that battle.
Pretty sure Robben came as a sub at the EURO 08 and put one past France with Thuram in the side
Leaving for some time. But another example of those two (Messi / Ronaldinho) "not gelling well together":
Did they play together in this system? It's a non point. Of course its all hypothetical, but I think its much easier to see yours not working well than it is mine. As mentioned before, Crespo and Chiesa were unreal together and in this game crespo has a compatriot who was twice the player in every respect that chiesa was. It's a fecking great partnership almost guaranteed to work. and supported by two all time great b2b midfielders and one of the games all time great creators, it just works. Yours has so many questions over it once you get past the "but it looks great" scenario.
False 9 Messi needs players beside him who will run constantly on and off the ball, and work their fecking arses off to retrieve the ball when they lose it, which lets be honest my defence are going to be taking the ball off of you an awful lot.
and 19 years old Messi against Roberto Carlos / Cannavaro and the likes:
The goofy looking fellow there is Ronnie as well
The goofy looking fellow there is Ronnie as well
Once again, Their peaks werent at the same time. By getting the best out of one of them you have to compensate by accepting the other will be less influential. This is indisputable.
You are looking at dead ends here mate. It's the usual stuff in drafts - when you face a top drawer attacking unit - too many cooks and they won't work together..
and 19 years old Messi against Roberto Carlos / Cannavaro and the likes:
The goofy looking fellow there is Ronnie as well
And now you're showing videos of right winger messi, which really only goes to prove that your players aren't in the best system to get the best ouf of one another.
You are looking at dead ends here mate. It's the usual stuff in drafts - when you face a top drawer attacking unit - too many cooks and they won't work together..
well that debate might be a bit unfounded when they aren't playing against a defensive unit like mine, because you can bet your bottom dollar that they will work together.
yeah he cant possibly be. Fecking Dirk Kuyt would have been a better fit given the necessity of pressing the ball and winning it back and being a team player.
So a player like Messi is incapable of working in different formation ? One who has torn apart every modern defense either as a RWF or CF or #10 or as a false 9?
That doesn’t make sense we can’t replicate the same set ups same oppositions etc. as I said all is purely assumptions on your side.
I think draft games often go in cycles. If I remember correct last time I've used Robben in drafts was without an overlapping full back and had to defend him being described as cut in and shoot merchant, now it's the other way around.
Robben is a great winger mate, only second to Figo on the right side in modern sense. He has tons of assists to his name as well:
etc..
Okay so watched these videos and only one of these assists is something that could conceivably happen in this game, where robben cuts in from the right and gives it to van der vaart on the edge of the box.
4 of these passes come from the LW positon where robben won't be
1 assist comes from a corner which doesn't prove anything
the rest are all passes or assists to conventional number 9 centre forwards (RVN, Gomez, RVP etc) which your team doesn't have. Why would robben's ability to pass a ball in behind be of any value in this team? there will almost be no-one making the runs.
Arjen Robben plays his best football with a centre forward who can move around and draw players out of position giving him a little more space to operate in. That wont happen in this game.
I'm just realising that you have Just Fontaine on the bench.
Ronaldinho Fontaine Messi
It honestly functions better.
Thats your trouble. This is an all time great defence which shits all over any defence any of these attackers you have ever faced.
with no real counter argument as to why my set up doesn't work or get the best out of every position and thats because it just does. As mentioned, the only player I can really see shining in a set up devoted to False 9 Messi is Carlos Alberto, who is just the Dani Alves of the 70's and they would be just as effective as Messi and Alves were from 08-11.
The rest, i'm not sure about. Redondo is a few tiers below iniesta, Xavi is on a different planet to Vieira and Sammer when he steps up can't play like Busquets. So when you have so many people who genuinely believe (in my opinion wrongly) that messi's success was largely in part due to Busquets and Xaviesta, then id imagine those same people would be scratching their heads like me wondering how the hell these two midfielders are going to be anywhere near the quality that messi needs to be at his best?
I'm backing Roberto Carlos to summon his inner ryan giggs and make the most of vieiras questionable passing;
watch from 50 seconds until about 2 minutes in
Baresi will be able to step forward in this game much like Sammer only Schiaffino is likely to be a bit further back and more capable of getting a challenge in on Sammer than say Messi would be on Baresi.
To be honest, this has a Baresi Man of the match performance written all over it. At some point you have to say "yep, that defence is gonna be good enough to shut out that attack" and pour glory on the defenders.
Hello Everyone.
Good Luck, @Arbitrium .
A couple of points I want to address.
Some points have been raised about Robben and Messi not complementing each other because they will get in each other's way. If this was pre-2012 Robben, then probably yes as he was a bit one-dimensional and selfish then. But since 2012, especially since playing under Heynckes and Guardiola, Robben is a much much more all-around footballer.
There is a common misconception that all Robben does is cut inside of his left foot and shoot. Yeah, he does that but his game is so much more, especially in the last 5-6 odd years. He makes a lot more runs off the ball and beyond the backline. Instead of cutting in and shooting, he threads through-balls inwards, especially with so much attention on him there's a lot of space created which he utilizes with his passing. He goes past outside of his full-back a lot more and provide low crosses and cut-backs. I had to search a bit but remember Balu's post regarding how the entire "All Robben does is cut inside and shoot" is a myth.
Our votes doesn't count, bro.
I have voted so that I don't have to click to check what the score is everytime.
I can understand why you may feel Redondo and Sammer may step into each other's foot but if you really think about it, having someone like Redondo actually allows Sammer more license to march forward and do what he does best. Because positioning wise, you have someone who can cover for Sammer. Going forward, Redondo is the perfect player to have alongside Sammer because he can link with Sammer in and around our own half and get out of the pressing with those 1-2s and release him forward. Redondo allows Sammer to be much more aggressive with his forward runs after initiating the attack because in Redondo, there is the perfect player who can find him as well as Vieira to push us forward and link-up with the front-three and wing-backs.
Puyol, yeah. Not quite the level of all-time great CBs but he was still a really good CB who would thrive in a set-up like this. Perfect to cover Carlos Alberto as well as being a physical presence at the back.
As for Vieira, I don't see any issues with him. At his peak, he was a complete central midfielder who could do everything. Score, tackle, pass, dribble past opposition midfielders. IMO, he is the perfect foil for Redondo and complements Redondo's game really well. He keeps us extremely solid at the back, while at the same time offers off-the ball/late runs into the box as another option in attack. Like in his Arsenal days, absolutely devastating on the break due to his long strides and ability to power/dribble past opposition midfielders.
When Messi played as a False-9, there were a lot of games where Pep used Iniesta and Fabregas on the LW. So, the entire idea that he needs players who will run on and off the ball and working their ass off isn't really true.
Good Luck, @Arbitrium .
A couple of points I want to address.
Some points have been raised about Robben and Messi not complementing each other because they will get in each other's way. If this was pre-2012 Robben, then probably yes as he was a bit one-dimensional and selfish then. But since 2012, especially since playing under Heynckes and Guardiola, Robben is a much much more all-around footballer.
There is a common misconception that all Robben does is cut inside of his left foot and shoot. Yeah, he does that but his game is so much more, especially in the last 5-6 odd years. He makes a lot more runs off the ball and beyond the backline. Instead of cutting in and shooting, he threads through-balls inwards, especially with so much attention on him there's a lot of space created which he utilizes with his passing. He goes past outside of his full-back a lot more and provide low crosses and cut-backs. I had to search a bit but remember Balu's post regarding how the entire "All Robben does is cut inside and shoot" is a myth.
Our votes doesn't count, bro.
I have voted so that I don't have to click to check what the score is everytime.
I can understand why you may feel Redondo and Sammer may step into each other's foot but if you really think about it, having someone like Redondo actually allows Sammer more license to march forward and do what he does best. Because positioning wise, you have someone who can cover for Sammer. Going forward, Redondo is the perfect player to have alongside Sammer because he can link with Sammer in and around our own half and get out of the pressing with those 1-2s and release him forward. Redondo allows Sammer to be much more aggressive with his forward runs after initiating the attack because in Redondo, there is the perfect player who can find him as well as Vieira to push us forward and link-up with the front-three and wing-backs.
Puyol, yeah. Not quite the level of all-time great CBs but he was still a really good CB who would thrive in a set-up like this. Perfect to cover Carlos Alberto as well as being a physical presence at the back.
As for Vieira, I don't see any issues with him. At his peak, he was a complete central midfielder who could do everything. Score, tackle, pass, dribble past opposition midfielders. IMO, he is the perfect foil for Redondo and complements Redondo's game really well. He keeps us extremely solid at the back, while at the same time offers off-the ball/late runs into the box as another option in attack. Like in his Arsenal days, absolutely devastating on the break due to his long strides and ability to power/dribble past opposition midfielders.
When Messi played as a False-9, there were a lot of games where Pep used Iniesta and Fabregas on the LW. So, the entire idea that he needs players who will run on and off the ball and working their ass off isn't really true.
@The Red Viper
all very true about robben but its hard to see who he's cutting the ball back to and once again, it's who he has to get the ball past.
Peak robben 100% needs an out and out centre forward.
all very true about robben but its hard to see who he's cutting the ball back to and once again, it's who he has to get the ball past.
Peak robben 100% needs an out and out centre forward.
And now we have redondo filling in for sammer when he ventures forward. Man what an absolute clusterfeck.
A player who most definitely doesnt get enough credit, here are 26 goals which explain exactly why he's a perfect player for this system. Almost all of the goals inside the box, a mixture of left foot, right foot and header, plenty coming from threaded through balls (schiaffino) and plenty from advanced full backs (carlos, Dani alves)
There was a very specific reason this guy was once the most expensive player of all time, and its that he was fecking briliant.
https://www.planetfootball.com/nostalgia/tribute-hernan-crespo-expensive-footballer-world/
There's no centre forward who is capable of drawing players out of position like Messi though.
I don't really agree. Robben isn't your Beckham or Solano kinda RW who needs a out and centre forward to take the best out of him. If anything, having Messi centrally means whenever he drops deep and drags out the opposition CB with him, there's ample amount of space for Robben to run at.
Redondo doesn't really fill in for Sammer like say a Desailly would. And honestly we don't really need it as we still have two good CBs in Ferrara and Puyol. We don't expect it either. Redondo is there to sit in front of the defense and cut those passing lanes. When I say Redondo covers for Sammer, it means there is still enough protection at the back even when Sammer ventures forward. Redondo doesn't really have to drop deep and be the 3rd CB/quasi-CB. He just needs to sit in front of the defense, sense out the danger, and intercept the passes and ensure we don't get exposed on counters.
Remember it's Franco fecking Baresi he would drag with him, and that there will be no space for robben to run at because Nesta and Thuram are still there. If its a passage of play that involves messi dragging someone out to get the ball, then it means my full backs are in a more defensive position and there isn't a mismatch anywhere.
I really hate to keep banging the same drum but the whole system of team enigma/trv just wouldn't work if Messi is the conductor. He needs a 433 with wide unselfish industrious wingers who will play for messi and not themselves which he doesn't have. He needs a high pressingm high intensity midfield unit capable of playing tiki taka which he doesn't have.
Honestly think this tactical set-up is easier to justify than the one they went with.
Honestly think this tactical set-up is easier to justify than the one they went with.
If you're going to do that Redondo should be a DLP and Sammer B2B.
True. I think the front 3 is more likely to work out as a unit.
Either Masopust is a Ballon d'Or winner and Kempes is not or the other way round but never both
So a Ballon d'Or winner, the best and and most influential and decisive player of the 1996 Euros is not good enough to be a potential MotM?
Not really. He is a surer bet than half of the players from your team that you mentioned.And that’s why why I said a case could be made for him