@Enigma_87 in what world is carlos alberto better defensively than dani alves? Would love to see some proof of this.
The Road Trip Draft R1: Enigma/TRV vs Arbitrium
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
I really like @Arbitrium's defence and midfield. Also agree that the players around Messi aren't optimal for him to shine, he's never really impressed me when taken out of the Barcelona system. I think Robben is too selfish for it to work as a front 3.
However, he really does lack up front for an all-time draft, and not sure whether he'd get many goals. It's a tough one.
However, he really does lack up front for an all-time draft, and not sure whether he'd get many goals. It's a tough one.
Honestly, what is the point of Arjen Robben in this game. He never really played with a strong overlapping full back (which Carlos Alberto undoubtedly is) and he never played without movement ahead of him (which he wont get because messi and ronaldinho are both going to drop and look for the ball)
Great player but he'll be lost in this game, completely.
Great player but he'll be lost in this game, completely.
Mate, its a world cup winning, top goalscoring forward who also finished as top scorer in la liga several times, partnered with a guy who scored 39 goals in 54 league games during a time in serie A where the defenders were of the best quality they have been anywhere in the world for the last few decades.
Its literally 2 of the top Argentinian strikers of all time partnering one another up front. Playing against a great defence, but nowhere near an elite one.
Team Enigma/Trv havent been shy about this team being built around Messi and if thats the case, give him the players and set up to let him shine. I think Cruyff would have been a better fit for this side in all honesty..
Given the width of my full backs and the freedom they will have at times ( I think this is true for both sides) another thing you have to take into consideration which can often be what determines the outcome of such a close game is the amount of balls that go into the box and the movement within.
Crespo and Kempes movement are both elite. As is both their heading ability (Crespo more so). The defenders on team enigma/trv are good in the air but good enough to win every ball coming in from Carlos and Alves, both who have excellent distribution?
Contrast that with The front 3 of Enigma/trv. None of the front 3 ever demonstrate much movement inside the box as they all prefer to have the ball outside of it. And there is much more chance of me getting the call to play up front for United against bournemouth tomorrow than there is of anyone on His team scoring a header against those defenders. Not that they'll have to face a cross the whole game anyway, thus rendering the crossing abilities of Facchetti and Carlos Alberto redundant.
Crespo and Kempes movement are both elite. As is both their heading ability (Crespo more so). The defenders on team enigma/trv are good in the air but good enough to win every ball coming in from Carlos and Alves, both who have excellent distribution?
Contrast that with The front 3 of Enigma/trv. None of the front 3 ever demonstrate much movement inside the box as they all prefer to have the ball outside of it. And there is much more chance of me getting the call to play up front for United against bournemouth tomorrow than there is of anyone on His team scoring a header against those defenders. Not that they'll have to face a cross the whole game anyway, thus rendering the crossing abilities of Facchetti and Carlos Alberto redundant.
He was center back for his club side in many games mate he’s to me certainly better than Alves in defensive sense.
It’s a standard practice mate or I really don’t understand what’s the issue?
At the end of his career IIRC?
Well it should be much more of a standard practice that when one team has a manager and an assistant, and the other only has a manager, that one person on the team with two abstains. Surely thats common sense?
He was excellent tackler and was always considered as one of the most complete full backs of all time. Dani Alves is good defensively but as @Gio said it's pretty much non contest if you compare them in a back 4. Regardless of whether it is back 4 or back 5, when you face Robben and Ronaldinho and Facchetti and Carlos Alberto, both Carlos and Alves would be tested, and whilst you Kempes who can peel left, your full backs are the main source of width in your team, whilst we have much more variety in attack in that sense.
Not sure if I understand mate. Manager votes doesn't count either way so they are pretty much voided. TRV hasn't participated in the discussion yet and he's limited to 3 posts of the course of the whole game.
In which case i have considerably more through the middle, where i can actually do damage. theres really not that much point in your full backs offering width or getting to the byline. No-one in the box and 3 of the greatest defenders of all time snuffing out anything that comes their way anyway. Contrast that with masopust, breitner, schiaffino, Kempes and Crespo all offering significant goal threat through the middle.
I think draft games often go in cycles. If I remember correct last time I've used Robben in drafts was without an overlapping full back and had to defend him being described as cut in and shoot merchant, now it's the other way around.Robben is a great winger mate, only second to Figo on the right side in modern sense. He has tons of assists to his name as well:
etc..
I dont agree with managers voting at all, would personally rather keep the score unknown and encourage discussion.
Breaking up 5-3-2 through the middle is often not something you would likely to target. Especially a defence marshaled by Sammer, a better GK in Banks and shielded by Redondo and Vieira.
Our attack has much more variety, goalscoring prowess(Messi) and diversity in their game.
I hope that voters can see past the fancy names here, because in my honest opinion
If you want to get the best out of Robben in this game then you cannot get the best out of Messi or Robben
If you want to get the best out of Ronaldinho in this game then you cannot get the best out of Messi or Robben
If you want to get the best ouf of Messi in this game then you cannot get the best out of Ronaldinho or Robben.
The front 3 wouldnt function well at all.
EDIT:
And if you factor in the defence they are facing when two of those 3 arent having their best game, sorry but it's a mismatch that no amount Messi magic is going to unlock.
If you want to get the best out of Robben in this game then you cannot get the best out of Messi or Robben
If you want to get the best out of Ronaldinho in this game then you cannot get the best out of Messi or Robben
If you want to get the best ouf of Messi in this game then you cannot get the best out of Ronaldinho or Robben.
The front 3 wouldnt function well at all.
EDIT:
And if you factor in the defence they are facing when two of those 3 arent having their best game, sorry but it's a mismatch that no amount Messi magic is going to unlock.
We don't need to have a target man up front against that defence mate. That's exactly the opposite of what you would expect of us breaking it up.
Ferrara, Puyol and Sammer are top class in the air and considering the quality they bring I think they are pretty good match for the opposition forwards. Our defence is well suited countering your attack and ours is much more likely to decide the game. Especially Messi.
Come on mate that's bollocks.
Ronaldinho is the biggest figure along with Rijkaard who introduced Messi to the first team. Messi to this day has huge respect for him and they worked like a treat together - young Messi and peak Ronaldinho.
Messi worked with Pedro, who is a significantly inferior version to Robben.
If you want to go in details Masopust and Breitner played in different set ups does that mean they can't function well in your midfield?
Don't really agree with this. It's a conclusion that seems to derive from highlight reels more than the hallmark of his game.
Carlos Alberto was more about playmaking than speed and directness, which is what Alves' game is about.
For what it's worth, I'd rather have Alves against Facchetti as it's largely a pace and tracking back and forth battle than about defensive nous. A "better defender" than Alves is bound to stay too conservative and impair your balance, while Alves would just keep exchanging blows.
In fact, I see that happening on the other flank with Carlos pushing Alberto back and being a match if he ever ventures forward.
Cheers mate. Yeah Redondo was physical and as you mentioned Sammer would really bring a lot of dynamism in that defence/midfield and transitioning through the lines.
The thing is neither was the dominant characters that would make them step on each other toes. Don't think either had an issue with another player in controlling the game, hence would IMO dovetail nicely.
thats twice youve done it now, we are talking about players playing at their peak which means false 9 messi and peak ronaldinho, which literally never happened once. as already mentioned but incase anyone missed it, when guardiola decided to make messi into a false 9, he dispensed with ronaldinho. and you mention carlos albertos centre back skills which he developed past his peak. play fair
The only eyesore to me is Ferrara as an LCB. No biggie as you largely want him as a stopper, but still not the best positioning for Ferrara.
thats twice youve done it now, we are talking about players playing at their peak which means false 9 Messi and peak ronaldinho, which literally never happened once. as already mentioned but incase anyone missed it, when Guardiola decided to make Messi into a false 9, he dispensed with ronaldinho. and you mention carlos albertos centre back skills which he developed past his peak. play fair
Mate, that's your opinion on the matter and not something I really agree with. Both Ronnie and Messi worked pretty well with each other. Their peaks didn't overlap but by no means that doesn't give any indication they won't be great in the same team (both peaks).
A great piece on Redondo, haven't picked him in a while, but certainly missed
Fernando Redondo: The Pure Essence of Elegance
The one-touch genius who showed us what magic looks like on the pitch
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There are many players in Real Madrid’s history, who have a claim for the most elegant and graceful player ever. When you talk about elegance and poetry in a footballing context, the player that usually pops up in your the mind is Zinédine Zidane. However, there is another one, El Príncipe de Madrid, who, in my eyes, surpasses even Zidane.
Fernando Carlos Redondo Neri
When you hear this name, the first thing that comes to mind is that outrageous and mesmerizing piece of skill at Old Trafford. But Fernando Redondo was much more than that. It's hard to describe Redondo, because even if you think of the highest praise and the most eloquent descriptions, it just won't be enough to get a grasp of the magnitude of his legacy. His importance to the team, club and fans was only rivalled by the empty space after his unfortunate transfer.
Fernando Redondo could transform any move, pass or action into an exquisite piece of art. He was a true prince of Madrid not only on the pitch, but also outside of it. He was a magnificent player, but even a better person. Whenever you talk to someone, who has witnessed him playing live, they can’t help but to feel nostalgic, because he was one of the true Greats. And there hasn't been anyone like him since then, not even close.
Argentina's beginnings
Fernando Redondo was born on 6 June, 1969, in Adrogué. However, unlike most South American players, he didn’t play football to escape the harsh reality of the outside world. Redondo was born into a middle-class family and was given a proper education.
Redondo’s unique style was shaped during his early days in Argentinos Juniors, a club that had many illustrious graduates such as Diego Maradona, who left the club four years prior to Redondo’s arrival.
Diego Armando Maradona. He was a God for every young player at that time, but not for young Fernando. He worshipped a different player. It was the same player that Maradona also worshipped and the one that you probably never heard of: Ricardo Bochini, The Master of La Pausa. You might be wondering what la pausa, which doesn’t have an English equivalent, means.
Well, I’ll let the Master himself describe it:
Redondo debuted in Argentinos Juniors first team at the tender age of 15 and after five years he moved to Spain just like Maradona did. His destination was CD Tenerife where he met Jorge Valdano. Together they managed to deny Real Madrid a La Liga title on the last match day in two consecutive seasons (91/92 and 92/93). On both occasions, Barcelona were the eventual La Liga champions. When Jorge Valdano was named Real Madrid's coach in 1994, he brought Fernando Redondo with him to Madrid.
Instantly, Redondo became the centre piece of Real Madrid’s midfield, winning La Liga in his first season. After a disappointing campaign the following season, Jorge Valdano was fired and renowned Fabio Capello was hired and success once again returned to Madrid.
In these years (1997 - 2000) Redondo was at his peak. He didn’t possess the engine to cover every inch of the field, but his intelligence and the sense of what is going to happen and where was unrivalled. At first, Fabio Capello was hesitant to play Redondo as a defensive midfielder, as he wasn’t convinced by his defensive qualities and considered him too elegant to play there. These thoughts were quickly disproved and Redondo was awarded the highest praise he could get from an Italian manager -– tactical freedom on the pitch, along with this quote: “I was fascinated by him...He is tactically perfect.”
He would go on and play a crucial part in the long awaited Séptima. But even the masterful midfield performance in the final against a terrifying Juve side with a holy trinity of Dechamps, Edgar Davis, and Zidane in midfield wasn’t enough to receive the recognition he deserved.
This is how the English media perceived Redondo in 2000:
A volatile, unyielding Argentine midfielder who, with Hierro, is a big influence inside the Bernabéu. He’s great with his elbows: should be an interesting duel with Keane.
The public and media were seemingly waiting for that illusive something to truly appreciate and acknowledge Redondo as one of the all-time great defensive midfielders.
National Team Quarrels
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He couldn’t get the recognition at the World Cup, due to many differences with Argentina’s managers. There were two types of coaches in Argentina: Bilardistas (Bilard, Pasarella) and Menottistas (Valdano, Menotti, Bielsa). Bilardista’s believed in hard tackling, cheating and leg-breaking football; whereas Menottista’s believe that football can be played more constructively, that it can be elevated to an art. It’s needless to say that Redondo was Menottista’s.
In 1990, Redondo declined a National team call up under the pretence that he has important exams which he cannot miss, but the truth was that he refused to play under Bilard. Four years later, his hopes of a glorious triumph with Argentina were destroyed by Diego Maradona himself. He got expelled from the tournament after failing a drug test and the whole team crumbled.
In 1998, Pasarella became the coach and he issued a truly ridiculous ban on long hair, which was directly aimed at Redondo. Redondo refused to comply with this order and therefore he got left out of the National team. Pasarella ended up looking very silly, because Argentina got knocked out in the quarter finals of the World Cup, while Redondo was celebrating the UEFA Champions League title with Real Madrid.
The Night the Prince was Crowned
Old Trafford. The Theatre of Dreams.
It was a fitting stage for the coronation. Real Madrid arrived at Old Trafford in bad shape. Their league campaign left a lot to desire and they were out of the Champions League spots. Only a Champions league title could secure them a spot in this prestigious competition next season.
'Real Madrid have been playing fairly badly to very badly all year,' said Johan Cruyff in March 2000. 'I don't think there is a team in the world where the midfield loses so many balls. You can't count how many Redondo loses.'
And yet, it’s Real Madrid and this was the Champions League. You can never count them out. Meanwhile, Manchester United were in a completely different situation. They had been unbeaten at home in the last 16 months in all competitions and their midfield was arguably the best in Europe. And this fact makes Del Bosque’s selection and tactics even more mind-boggling.
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Del Bosque opted for an unusual 3-3-2-2 / 3-5-2 formation that strongly resembled tactics from the 50s and 60s. And when you looked at the personnel, you’d think that Del Bosque went mad. There was only one central midfielder –- Redondo. Macca was always more of a wide midfielder and Savio was a pure winger. And against them stood the pride of United: Beckham – Scholes – Roy Keane – Ryan Giggs. All of them at their physical and footballing peak. It would be nearly impossible to find a better midfield in Europe at that time.
How could Real Madrid's formation work? One word: Redondo. He was the glue and linchpin that held the whole team together. Yes, he did have help from very active central defenders and Macca, who had a tireless engine. But even then, it’s beyond crazy to even think about playing in this formation with those players against such a strong Manchester United side.
However, it worked spectacularly. This game was an epitome of a fun, attacking and pulsating encounter, as there were waves after waves of attack followed by quick and incisive counter attacks. United started off strongly, as was expected, but soon Real Madrid took control. When I say Real Madrid, I mean Fernando Redondo.
Redondo was gliding on the pitch snuffing out any potential danger. As I said earlier, he didn’t have an engine to run like a mad man and lounge into tackles like some defensive midfielders do (but make no mistakes, he was an excellent tackler). And yet, he was everywhere. Instead of sprinting back and forth, he relied on his supreme sense of positioning and intelligence. He was like a chess grandmaster playing with rookies. Even Alex Ferguson was completely bewildered by his performance:
'Redondo must have a magnet in his boots, he was fantastic, unbelievable. He had one of those games. Every time we attacked and the ball came out of their box, it fell at his feet. Every time!'
But for Fernando, this was a game like any other.
In defense, Redondo's colossal performance in the centre of the pitch forced United out wide, where Real Madrid had numerical superiority thanks to their wing backs and Macca with Savio. He won back the ball, escaped pressure and played an inch perfect pass in one smooth move. Roy Keane and Paul Scholes had never been dominated in such a manner before.
In attack, everything went through Redondo and his magnificent left foot. He lured his opponents and dared them to tackle him. When they tried to close him down, he smoothly got away and the space opened up right in front of him.
However, to label Redondo as a defensive midfielder or deep-lying playmaker is doing him a gross injustice. He was more — much more. He was the Midfielder with a capital M. He could do anything in the midfield and play any role that manager required. He was a manager's dream. With Redondo in the lineup, you could play such a bonkers lineup and still come out with a victory.
'Raúl’s goal after Redondo’s backheel is one of the most beautiful moves I’ve seen on a football pitch.' - Pierluigi Collina
And then there is the famous taconazo. Real Madrid were leading 2-0 after Roy Keane's own goal and a quick counter attacking goal scored by Raúl and assisted by Redondo. It's the single best piece of skill to be ever produced under the lights of the UEFA Champions league. The sheer elegance and audacity of this move is unrivalled. Redondo was seemingly in an unsolvable situation and yet he found a genius way to come out on top. This single move cemented Redondo's legacy forever. This was the illusive something that everybody was waiting for.
Fall out with Florentino Perez
After winning the second Champions league title in three years, Redondo and Real Madrid were on top. Redondo not only won the Most Valuable Player of the tournament award, but also the UEFA Club Player of the year. He was 31 years old and he was in the peak years for defensive midfielders. He was one of the very few indispensable players of that team.
'If there is one thing i have to say about him, it's that he's one of the few players who can do with their feet what they think with their heads. He is the only player I ever wanted in my team.' - Jorge Valdano
Summer of 2000 was a summer of fundamental changes. Lorenzo Sanz was standing for a re-election and he was up against Florentino Peréz. Sanz's main selling point were two Champions league titles in three years after waiting 32 years, while Florentino focused on the economic side of the club and the promise of Luis Figo. Fernando Redondo sided with Lorenzo Sanz.
Florentino Perez won the election and the era of Galácticos officially kicked off. In his first summer window, Florentino brought Luis Figo, Claude Makélélé, Flávio Conceição, Santiago Solari and others for a mind-boggling 151 million euros (Real Madrid at that time had 118 million euros in revenues...). Naturally, some of the old players had to be sold. Nicolas Anelka was shipped off to PSG and Christian Karembeu to Middlesbrough. And then Florentino began working on Redondo's transfer.
Florentino was aware of Redondo's influence in the squad and it didn't help Redondo that he sided with Sanz during the elections. Florentino believe that he could be replaced, so he secretly began engineering a move to AC Milan without his consent. When Del Bosque was presented with the fact that Redondo might be sold, he was strictly against it. For him, he was the key player in the squad. However, Florentino was adamant and eventually reached an agreement with AC Milan for 17 million euros.
Now, all that Florentino had to do was to convince Redondo. And that wasn't easy. Redondo was a fan favourite, as he lived and breathed Madridismo. During that summer, he made sure that everybody knew that he doesn't want to leave the club.
'I feel totally integrated at this club. For me, there is no reason to go and play for another club. I repeat, Real is my home, and as far as it depends on me, I see no reason to desire another.'
Reluctantly, he later agreed to this move and Real Madrid quickly officially announced this deal. Real Madrid anticipated a backlash from the fans, so they added to the announcement a small note that this deal came about as a result of the expressed desire of the player. Redondo was furious. He called a dramatic press conference where he said:
I refuse to allow this stain on my name and my image.
I want to give you the facts. The only details I knew about this transfer I read in the newspapers. Nobody from Real Madrid contacted me to tell me what was happening until Wednesday night.
Then I was told that Milans offer was very interesting for the club and a fee had been agreed. I was told that this information had already been passed to my agent. I phoned him and he confirmed that he had spoken to Milan and that the deal was agreed.
I understood the situation but it was not my decision to leave. The club wanted me to go and I was in an impossible situation.
It really hurts that Real have tried to confuse the fans by claiming it was my "expressed desire" to leave. That is not true and I refuse to allow my honour to be put in doubt. This has been done to stain my name and my image.
Fans and ultras were outraged. They absolutely adored Redondo and during the matches they were chanting: 'Redondo is untouchable', 'We won't swap Figo for Redondo', 'Redondo is Madrid' and 'Learn Florentino, no one sells Redondo'. However, it didn't change anything. Redondo was off to Milan.
Final Reunion
In his first few training sessions with AC Milan, Redondo's career effectively ended. He accidentally sprained his knee, but incredibly he continued with the training session and only after the training session he asked a medical help. He never recovered from this knee injury. Doctors concluded that he needed a surgery to repair the ligaments and expected him to be back in six months. Later it was revealed that Redondo needed two more surgeries to recover from this injury, however, he never fully recovered.
'I came to Milan to play. Milan must only pay me when that's what I am doing.' - Fernando Redondo
In the summer 2001, he flew back to Madrid for the second surgery. As a gesture of good faith, he went to Galliani (AC Milan's CEO) and told him that they shouldn't pay him his wages until he fully recovers. Not only he renounced his wages, but he also wanted to give back the house and the car given to him by Milan. Galliani politely refused and later remarked:
'Fernando is an incredible man, as well as an extraordinary player. I have never seen anything like it during my career as a director.'
In those four years with AC Milan, Redondo barely featured (2049 minutes played in his whole Milan career). However, when AC Milan came to Madrid on 12th March 2003, Carlo Ancelotti started Redondo and he finally got the send-off from the fans he deserved. When Redondo and Milan players were stepping on the pitch, Real Madrid fans in the Bernabeu stood up and started chanting his name for several minutes.
The Prince was back where he belongs, in Madrid.
Fernando Redondo: The Pure Essence of Elegance
The one-touch genius who showed us what magic looks like on the pitch
There are many players in Real Madrid’s history, who have a claim for the most elegant and graceful player ever. When you talk about elegance and poetry in a footballing context, the player that usually pops up in your the mind is Zinédine Zidane. However, there is another one, El Príncipe de Madrid, who, in my eyes, surpasses even Zidane.
Fernando Carlos Redondo Neri
When you hear this name, the first thing that comes to mind is that outrageous and mesmerizing piece of skill at Old Trafford. But Fernando Redondo was much more than that. It's hard to describe Redondo, because even if you think of the highest praise and the most eloquent descriptions, it just won't be enough to get a grasp of the magnitude of his legacy. His importance to the team, club and fans was only rivalled by the empty space after his unfortunate transfer.
Fernando Redondo could transform any move, pass or action into an exquisite piece of art. He was a true prince of Madrid not only on the pitch, but also outside of it. He was a magnificent player, but even a better person. Whenever you talk to someone, who has witnessed him playing live, they can’t help but to feel nostalgic, because he was one of the true Greats. And there hasn't been anyone like him since then, not even close.
Argentina's beginnings
Fernando Redondo was born on 6 June, 1969, in Adrogué. However, unlike most South American players, he didn’t play football to escape the harsh reality of the outside world. Redondo was born into a middle-class family and was given a proper education.
Redondo’s unique style was shaped during his early days in Argentinos Juniors, a club that had many illustrious graduates such as Diego Maradona, who left the club four years prior to Redondo’s arrival.
Diego Armando Maradona. He was a God for every young player at that time, but not for young Fernando. He worshipped a different player. It was the same player that Maradona also worshipped and the one that you probably never heard of: Ricardo Bochini, The Master of La Pausa. You might be wondering what la pausa, which doesn’t have an English equivalent, means.
Well, I’ll let the Master himself describe it:
Redondo debuted in Argentinos Juniors first team at the tender age of 15 and after five years he moved to Spain just like Maradona did. His destination was CD Tenerife where he met Jorge Valdano. Together they managed to deny Real Madrid a La Liga title on the last match day in two consecutive seasons (91/92 and 92/93). On both occasions, Barcelona were the eventual La Liga champions. When Jorge Valdano was named Real Madrid's coach in 1994, he brought Fernando Redondo with him to Madrid.
Instantly, Redondo became the centre piece of Real Madrid’s midfield, winning La Liga in his first season. After a disappointing campaign the following season, Jorge Valdano was fired and renowned Fabio Capello was hired and success once again returned to Madrid.
In these years (1997 - 2000) Redondo was at his peak. He didn’t possess the engine to cover every inch of the field, but his intelligence and the sense of what is going to happen and where was unrivalled. At first, Fabio Capello was hesitant to play Redondo as a defensive midfielder, as he wasn’t convinced by his defensive qualities and considered him too elegant to play there. These thoughts were quickly disproved and Redondo was awarded the highest praise he could get from an Italian manager -– tactical freedom on the pitch, along with this quote: “I was fascinated by him...He is tactically perfect.”
He would go on and play a crucial part in the long awaited Séptima. But even the masterful midfield performance in the final against a terrifying Juve side with a holy trinity of Dechamps, Edgar Davis, and Zidane in midfield wasn’t enough to receive the recognition he deserved.
This is how the English media perceived Redondo in 2000:
A volatile, unyielding Argentine midfielder who, with Hierro, is a big influence inside the Bernabéu. He’s great with his elbows: should be an interesting duel with Keane.
The public and media were seemingly waiting for that illusive something to truly appreciate and acknowledge Redondo as one of the all-time great defensive midfielders.
National Team Quarrels
He couldn’t get the recognition at the World Cup, due to many differences with Argentina’s managers. There were two types of coaches in Argentina: Bilardistas (Bilard, Pasarella) and Menottistas (Valdano, Menotti, Bielsa). Bilardista’s believed in hard tackling, cheating and leg-breaking football; whereas Menottista’s believe that football can be played more constructively, that it can be elevated to an art. It’s needless to say that Redondo was Menottista’s.
In 1990, Redondo declined a National team call up under the pretence that he has important exams which he cannot miss, but the truth was that he refused to play under Bilard. Four years later, his hopes of a glorious triumph with Argentina were destroyed by Diego Maradona himself. He got expelled from the tournament after failing a drug test and the whole team crumbled.
In 1998, Pasarella became the coach and he issued a truly ridiculous ban on long hair, which was directly aimed at Redondo. Redondo refused to comply with this order and therefore he got left out of the National team. Pasarella ended up looking very silly, because Argentina got knocked out in the quarter finals of the World Cup, while Redondo was celebrating the UEFA Champions League title with Real Madrid.
The Night the Prince was Crowned
Old Trafford. The Theatre of Dreams.
It was a fitting stage for the coronation. Real Madrid arrived at Old Trafford in bad shape. Their league campaign left a lot to desire and they were out of the Champions League spots. Only a Champions league title could secure them a spot in this prestigious competition next season.
'Real Madrid have been playing fairly badly to very badly all year,' said Johan Cruyff in March 2000. 'I don't think there is a team in the world where the midfield loses so many balls. You can't count how many Redondo loses.'
And yet, it’s Real Madrid and this was the Champions League. You can never count them out. Meanwhile, Manchester United were in a completely different situation. They had been unbeaten at home in the last 16 months in all competitions and their midfield was arguably the best in Europe. And this fact makes Del Bosque’s selection and tactics even more mind-boggling.
Del Bosque opted for an unusual 3-3-2-2 / 3-5-2 formation that strongly resembled tactics from the 50s and 60s. And when you looked at the personnel, you’d think that Del Bosque went mad. There was only one central midfielder –- Redondo. Macca was always more of a wide midfielder and Savio was a pure winger. And against them stood the pride of United: Beckham – Scholes – Roy Keane – Ryan Giggs. All of them at their physical and footballing peak. It would be nearly impossible to find a better midfield in Europe at that time.
How could Real Madrid's formation work? One word: Redondo. He was the glue and linchpin that held the whole team together. Yes, he did have help from very active central defenders and Macca, who had a tireless engine. But even then, it’s beyond crazy to even think about playing in this formation with those players against such a strong Manchester United side.
However, it worked spectacularly. This game was an epitome of a fun, attacking and pulsating encounter, as there were waves after waves of attack followed by quick and incisive counter attacks. United started off strongly, as was expected, but soon Real Madrid took control. When I say Real Madrid, I mean Fernando Redondo.
Redondo was gliding on the pitch snuffing out any potential danger. As I said earlier, he didn’t have an engine to run like a mad man and lounge into tackles like some defensive midfielders do (but make no mistakes, he was an excellent tackler). And yet, he was everywhere. Instead of sprinting back and forth, he relied on his supreme sense of positioning and intelligence. He was like a chess grandmaster playing with rookies. Even Alex Ferguson was completely bewildered by his performance:
'Redondo must have a magnet in his boots, he was fantastic, unbelievable. He had one of those games. Every time we attacked and the ball came out of their box, it fell at his feet. Every time!'
But for Fernando, this was a game like any other.
In defense, Redondo's colossal performance in the centre of the pitch forced United out wide, where Real Madrid had numerical superiority thanks to their wing backs and Macca with Savio. He won back the ball, escaped pressure and played an inch perfect pass in one smooth move. Roy Keane and Paul Scholes had never been dominated in such a manner before.
In attack, everything went through Redondo and his magnificent left foot. He lured his opponents and dared them to tackle him. When they tried to close him down, he smoothly got away and the space opened up right in front of him.
However, to label Redondo as a defensive midfielder or deep-lying playmaker is doing him a gross injustice. He was more — much more. He was the Midfielder with a capital M. He could do anything in the midfield and play any role that manager required. He was a manager's dream. With Redondo in the lineup, you could play such a bonkers lineup and still come out with a victory.
'Raúl’s goal after Redondo’s backheel is one of the most beautiful moves I’ve seen on a football pitch.' - Pierluigi Collina
And then there is the famous taconazo. Real Madrid were leading 2-0 after Roy Keane's own goal and a quick counter attacking goal scored by Raúl and assisted by Redondo. It's the single best piece of skill to be ever produced under the lights of the UEFA Champions league. The sheer elegance and audacity of this move is unrivalled. Redondo was seemingly in an unsolvable situation and yet he found a genius way to come out on top. This single move cemented Redondo's legacy forever. This was the illusive something that everybody was waiting for.
Fall out with Florentino Perez
After winning the second Champions league title in three years, Redondo and Real Madrid were on top. Redondo not only won the Most Valuable Player of the tournament award, but also the UEFA Club Player of the year. He was 31 years old and he was in the peak years for defensive midfielders. He was one of the very few indispensable players of that team.
'If there is one thing i have to say about him, it's that he's one of the few players who can do with their feet what they think with their heads. He is the only player I ever wanted in my team.' - Jorge Valdano
Summer of 2000 was a summer of fundamental changes. Lorenzo Sanz was standing for a re-election and he was up against Florentino Peréz. Sanz's main selling point were two Champions league titles in three years after waiting 32 years, while Florentino focused on the economic side of the club and the promise of Luis Figo. Fernando Redondo sided with Lorenzo Sanz.
Florentino Perez won the election and the era of Galácticos officially kicked off. In his first summer window, Florentino brought Luis Figo, Claude Makélélé, Flávio Conceição, Santiago Solari and others for a mind-boggling 151 million euros (Real Madrid at that time had 118 million euros in revenues...). Naturally, some of the old players had to be sold. Nicolas Anelka was shipped off to PSG and Christian Karembeu to Middlesbrough. And then Florentino began working on Redondo's transfer.
Florentino was aware of Redondo's influence in the squad and it didn't help Redondo that he sided with Sanz during the elections. Florentino believe that he could be replaced, so he secretly began engineering a move to AC Milan without his consent. When Del Bosque was presented with the fact that Redondo might be sold, he was strictly against it. For him, he was the key player in the squad. However, Florentino was adamant and eventually reached an agreement with AC Milan for 17 million euros.
Now, all that Florentino had to do was to convince Redondo. And that wasn't easy. Redondo was a fan favourite, as he lived and breathed Madridismo. During that summer, he made sure that everybody knew that he doesn't want to leave the club.
'I feel totally integrated at this club. For me, there is no reason to go and play for another club. I repeat, Real is my home, and as far as it depends on me, I see no reason to desire another.'
Reluctantly, he later agreed to this move and Real Madrid quickly officially announced this deal. Real Madrid anticipated a backlash from the fans, so they added to the announcement a small note that this deal came about as a result of the expressed desire of the player. Redondo was furious. He called a dramatic press conference where he said:
I refuse to allow this stain on my name and my image.
I want to give you the facts. The only details I knew about this transfer I read in the newspapers. Nobody from Real Madrid contacted me to tell me what was happening until Wednesday night.
Then I was told that Milans offer was very interesting for the club and a fee had been agreed. I was told that this information had already been passed to my agent. I phoned him and he confirmed that he had spoken to Milan and that the deal was agreed.
I understood the situation but it was not my decision to leave. The club wanted me to go and I was in an impossible situation.
It really hurts that Real have tried to confuse the fans by claiming it was my "expressed desire" to leave. That is not true and I refuse to allow my honour to be put in doubt. This has been done to stain my name and my image.
Fans and ultras were outraged. They absolutely adored Redondo and during the matches they were chanting: 'Redondo is untouchable', 'We won't swap Figo for Redondo', 'Redondo is Madrid' and 'Learn Florentino, no one sells Redondo'. However, it didn't change anything. Redondo was off to Milan.
Final Reunion
In his first few training sessions with AC Milan, Redondo's career effectively ended. He accidentally sprained his knee, but incredibly he continued with the training session and only after the training session he asked a medical help. He never recovered from this knee injury. Doctors concluded that he needed a surgery to repair the ligaments and expected him to be back in six months. Later it was revealed that Redondo needed two more surgeries to recover from this injury, however, he never fully recovered.
'I came to Milan to play. Milan must only pay me when that's what I am doing.' - Fernando Redondo
In the summer 2001, he flew back to Madrid for the second surgery. As a gesture of good faith, he went to Galliani (AC Milan's CEO) and told him that they shouldn't pay him his wages until he fully recovers. Not only he renounced his wages, but he also wanted to give back the house and the car given to him by Milan. Galliani politely refused and later remarked:
'Fernando is an incredible man, as well as an extraordinary player. I have never seen anything like it during my career as a director.'
In those four years with AC Milan, Redondo barely featured (2049 minutes played in his whole Milan career). However, when AC Milan came to Madrid on 12th March 2003, Carlo Ancelotti started Redondo and he finally got the send-off from the fans he deserved. When Redondo and Milan players were stepping on the pitch, Real Madrid fans in the Bernabeu stood up and started chanting his name for several minutes.
The Prince was back where he belongs, in Madrid.
I agree with arbitrium that Robben could struggle and that both Messi and him could be frustrated with their relationship on the pitch, on the other hand i dont see an issue between Messi and Dinho, yes its not th greatest fit tactically but i can see them working well and both be on top of their game, there is just to much respect between them for partnership not to work.
edit: and Pep sold Dinho not because of Messi but because he was past his peak.
edit: and Pep sold Dinho not because of Messi but because he was past his peak.
aye we want him as a stopper in this game Don't think it's really an issue either way as Arbitrium's right flank only consists of Dani Alves.
Mate, that's your opinion on the matter and not something I really agree with. Both Ronnie and Messi worked pretty well with each other. Their peaks didn't overlap but by no means that doesn't give any indication they won't be great in the same team (both peaks).
of course it does. are you telling me that 28 year old ronaldinho was past it and thats why guardiola got rid of him? or was it more a case of the best coach of his generation- who pioneered the system to get the best ouf of messi- decided that he simply wouldnt be able to fulfil the requirments?
Ronnie's star shined brightly but not long enough for all of us to enjoy it even more.
The biggest break in him came after that loss in the 06 WC. And he has said it himself. It's not something to do with Messi. At all.
"only" dani alves. Just a guy who literally can control a game from right back when at his best and with no-one tracking him at all as redondo and vieira are most definitely trying to contend with their midfield counterparts. So on the contrary, I think an out of position ferrara will be seeing Mr Alves regularly, and when he's not he'll be trying to contain the movement of Crespo which as we've already seen, he can struggle with. In case you missed it (honestly worth it for the commentary alone)
The thing is Messi at false 9 needed wide forwards who would cut in or stretch the play and offer brilliant movement going forward. Robben is one of the best at it.
Messi dropping in the hole and finding Robben behind the line is one hell of a route to goal and IMO they all would work like a treat. Especially all of them being really brilliant individuals and offering different things to the table on top of having a lot of space to work between them.
Messi "needed" players that would make those runs without the ball, Robben cuts are 90% with the ball.
yes but you know what guardiola is like as a coach. Almost every current/former player of his who speaks about him says that he makes them better. He didnt even try with ronaldinho.
The point stands mate and i know you have to argue for your team but that front 3 doesnt work together if you are using the false 9 version of Messi from 08-11. I'd be much more concerned with Villa and Pedro there to be honest, proper width and movement in behind and both willing to put a shift in for the team. Ronaldinho and robben wont do that. Remember that Messi success was a byproduct of Barcelona's success as a team who pressed from the front, very aggressively and had three midfielders doing the same, all buying in. you just don't have the conditions to expect this unit to perform as well as it appears it might at first glance.
I think you are getting desperate here mate. I'm sure you won't find many to agree with you that Ronaldinho was sold because of Messi. He was sold because he was past it.
Are you forgetting who's going to be tracking the runs of Robben if he manages to get past Carlos? Just one of the most intelligent defenders of all time. once again, NONE of your players came close to playing against a defence like this.
It is what it is tho. Your only source of width on the right is Dani Alves in attack. And this is before we discuss the space he'll leave for Facchetti and Ronaldinho to exploit when we get back the ball. Facchetti is greater goalscoring threat in terms of pure goals as well. Even playing in a much more defensive side in Inter.
Which would be worrying if Lilian Thuram, Franco Baresi and Alessandro Nesta weren't my defenders. And alves is more than capable of Getting back in position after an attack breaks down. Besides your entire team will be wondering who the feck to pass the ball to since peak ronaldinho, peak messi and peak robben will all be demanding it.
Tight game, ultimately it's about organisation vs. individual brilliance.
Enigma/TRV have more individual genius upfront, but the word individual is key when facing a superb defensive trio organised by arguably the best defensive line leader of all time.
Conversely, Arbitrium has a clear and sublime attacking orchestrator with players bound to submit to playing their respective roles rather than go solo... against a defence with great personnel but less likely to operate effectively as a collective unit as the other.
One is sexier, the other is more likely to manage and control the game.
The key could be in how the midfields stack up, which is hard to tell with the stylistic differences. It's easy to figure and value how Redondo-Vieira would operate with Sammer pushing up (mind, if/once beaten Ferrara/Puyol are up shit creek) while Masopust-Breitner- Schiaffino is harder to visualise.
Their standing in the game is superior, all three shone brightly on the biggest stage, all three were key to midfields featuring in WC finals... but still can't decidedly make a call for one or the other.
Enigma/TRV have more individual genius upfront, but the word individual is key when facing a superb defensive trio organised by arguably the best defensive line leader of all time.
Conversely, Arbitrium has a clear and sublime attacking orchestrator with players bound to submit to playing their respective roles rather than go solo... against a defence with great personnel but less likely to operate effectively as a collective unit as the other.
One is sexier, the other is more likely to manage and control the game.
The key could be in how the midfields stack up, which is hard to tell with the stylistic differences. It's easy to figure and value how Redondo-Vieira would operate with Sammer pushing up (mind, if/once beaten Ferrara/Puyol are up shit creek) while Masopust-Breitner- Schiaffino is harder to visualise.
Their standing in the game is superior, all three shone brightly on the biggest stage, all three were key to midfields featuring in WC finals... but still can't decidedly make a call for one or the other.
pretty big determining factor this.
I honestly dont think an argument can be made for who's team functions better as a unit. This is Jose's inter against pep's barcelona but with GOAT defenders, better midfielders and an effective striking duo.