The Road Trip Draft R1: Enigma/TRV vs Arbitrium

Who will win this match based on all the players at their peaks?

  • Total voters
    26
  • Poll closed .
Arbitrium said:
Cat is 100% spot on, although people’s reasons for voting extend far beyond tactical reasons. Of course there are those who would vote for enigma irrespective of my line up, and I doubt anyone would dispute that. And there are those that would vote against me, regardless of who I was playing, and I doubt anyone would dispute that.

This game proves that set up and GOAT defenders mean feck all. They are against a system that no one can conclusively say would work because there are too many doubts over it. But it’s worth nothing.
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Im sorry mane but you are acting the same way you accuse others, its like you built a tactically perfect team that plays against a current United side....

Yes your defence is amazing, if you would go nit picking the way you nit pick enigma/vip attack you would say that this isnt a peak Nesta you are having in your team.
Midfield is good names wise but im not sure how good it would work, ideally you would want a more defensive midfielder next to either Masopust or Breitner even though you have a back 3 but back 3 with very attacking wingbacks so as a unit your team is better defensive wise but not as much as you think. Enigma back three gets a LOT more protection from both wingbacks and his midfield + his back 3 is a good fit for your front three.

As i said earlier, i do think Robben is a bad fit but Dinho isnt, ideally you would want selfless runners around Messi but even without them a false 9 can work - just look at Firmino(comfortably best false 9 in the world since Messi peak there and one of the best attacking players in the world even though he is insanely underrated but thats another debate) and Salah and their lovely partnership.

At the end, its a close game but IMO attacking quality of his team and specially Messi would just edge it. Your defence and GOAT defenders did get credit because without them it would be a walk in the park and this way it was a tough game where you had a decent chance.
 
I enjoyed the discussion to be honest. Better than the 1 page snoozefests that can happen at times.
 
GodShaveTheQueen said:
@Arbitrium

I honestly think you lost because you fecked up not picking Zizou even when he was available that late. Sometimes cohesiveness is not just enough to win games and you need big names to expect voters to think they can own the game against the toughest lot. It's a shame that Makelele who was picked ahead of Zizou didn't get to feature.

I did consider voting for the other team as it was way more balanced at both ends but your team was my favorite throughout the first half of drafting and so was kind of a biased voted.

Kempes/Schiafino/Crespo would'nt be too many people's favorite attacker picks even in a all time draft with a blocked list let alone an unrestricted one. Kempes maybe in a World Cup context but hardly outside.

I was also very surprised that you picked Carlos ahead of Rivellino and maybe Rivaldo as well. That was the second time ignoring the final third while drafting and probably where it cost you the game.

Hopefully you take this as a feedback from an observer and not a tirade against your comments. Cheers.
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I will go back and forth with the best of them and have friendly Banter but never once is it personal or genuinely upsetting. Comments are comments, views are views and the idea is to argue for your team and embellish some ideas and see what kind of traction it gets. I’m confident that my comments picked me up more votes than I would have done had it been an inactive thread.

Given that I didn’t play makelele I do regret not selecting zidane although I do think that schiaffino was a better tactical fit. The front 3 works well IMO though I can admit in an all time context it looks weak. For me it was always about building from the back, and I had originally planned to play 41212 with thuram right back, makelele holding and then the rest the same but I couldn’t pass up Dani Alves in terms of tactical fit for a 532. It’s by far my favourite team I’ve put together.

Will need to stop prioritizing from the back but in this instance, being last to pick forced my hand. If enigma was last and drafted the rest of his side the same except for Messi it’s a different scoreline, but he was one of the first and got an attacking difference maker which is what wins votes.

I once had a defence of Sepp Maier, Cafu, Baresi, Kohler and Roberto Carlos once, with Pele up front supported by Ruud Gullit andnd still got beat (probably off tuppet)
 
Arbitrium said:
And there are those that would vote against me, regardless of who I was playing, and I doubt anyone would dispute that.

This game proves that set up and GOAT defenders mean feck all. They are against a system that no one can conclusively say would work because there are too many doubts over it. But it’s worth nothing.
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Defense-first team won lots in those drafts. Regarding your first post, it got me thinking again. As you can see, I didn’t vote (decided to abstain from voting in the modern draft and I’m afraid that it’s becoming a habit, unless I’m seeing an obvious mismatch), but to be fair your arguments — the repetitiveness and conviction of them threw me off a little bit. I’ve been there myself though, sometimes I get ultra defensive.

Gun to my head, I would’ve probably voted for you though, that defensive unit is ridiculous. Add a vote-winning attacker in the next round and you’re golden.
 
I hate you for picking Thuram 2nd and blocking him for the draft. My original (and very bold) plan was to go Maradona-Figueroa-Maldini-Thuram in the first four picks. It almost happened!
 
harms said:
I hate you for picking Thuram 2nd and blocking him for the draft. My original (and very bold) plan was to go Maradona-Figueroa-Maldini-Thuram in the first four picks. It almost happened!
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You can have the same level of hate directed at you for picking maldini third. Given other managers priorities, there’s a chance I could have had

Maldini Baresi Thuram

I don’t think it gets better
 


I considered setting up like this, so as to have a designated man marker in Makelele on Messi (definitely one of the best of all time in terms of being up to that task) and then I was going to argue until I was blue in the face about why Dani Alves or Breitner could play that role on the right side easily, and keep facchetti defending. The problem was the middle, as I could trust Schiaffino to put the work in and masopust to do well enough, but with sammer advancing at times it might cause some issues.
 
Arbitrium said:
I think it’s more likely for my players to meet the tactical demands placed on them and it just fits better IMO.
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I think your defence would have nullified the Enigma's attack because

1/ Baresi would have been fully focused on Messi

2/ The false 9 is supposed to spend a part of his time to release space for other players cutting inside: and Ronaldinho/Robben have a limited percussive force in the central area in this context. In other words, Stoickhov & Henry would have been perfect for Enigma with a false 9.

3/ you have Nesta, Thuram capable to cover all your right defence, very quick wing-back

4/ I'm not of those here who see Fachetti as a Super Man, perfect as a defender, right-midfielder, and winger.

Regarding your attack:

1/ noteworthy to say Baresi would contribute positively BUT the same can be told about Sammer

2/ the best player on the air should be Crespo

3/ I really don't know how to to assess Kempes (very string credentials, CV but when I have watched his highlights was disappoited) and Schiaffino (does he have the physical attributes to run the game?)

Battle midfield: you have the edge with a hard-working Kempes, Breitner, Dani Alves

Very similar defensive organizations and players I like in both sides, always a headache to assess these games
 
Not surprised by the outcome, voters tend to prefer a team with 3 big names in attacks against a team with 3 big names in central defence.

Always a discount applied on old-school players = more easier to sell Redondo/Falcao/Ronaldinho than Ocwirck/Monti/Schiaffino/Sivori, rightly or wrongly

Kuddos for the game
 
Ecstatic said:
Not surprised by the outcome, voters tend to prefer a team with 3 big names in attacks against a team with 3 big names in central defence.

Always a discount applied on old-school players = more easier to sell Redondo/Falcao/Ronaldinho than Ocwirck/Monti/Schiaffino/Sivori, rightly or wrongly

Kuddos for the game
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Without manager votes the score would be 13-10. Pretty happy with that given the way games usually go in terms of names
 
Arbitrium said:
Without manager votes the score would be 13-10. Pretty happy with that given the way games usually go in terms of names
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Sure. Always more challenging to defend old-school players (some exceptions: from Brazil or...)
 
Arbitrium said:
I considered setting up like this, so as to have a designated man marker in Makelele on Messi (definitely one of the best of all time in terms of being up to that task) and then I was going to argue until I was blue in the face about why Dani Alves or Breitner could play that role on the right side easily, and keep facchetti defending. The problem was the middle, as I could trust Schiaffino to put the work in and masopust to do well enough, but with sammer advancing at times it might cause some issues.
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I expected you to go with a 5-3-2

-------------Kempes--Crespo---------------
------Masopust-----------Breitner----------
Carlos---------Makelele-------------Alves
--------Nesta---Baresi----Thuram---------

I think Breitner and Masopust have way more attacking output than most other B2B midfielders. That includes a great goal output along with play making.

I rate Carlos and Alves more than Facchetti and Alberto in terms of attacking output.

You would then have 6 players almost always free to attack with a defense that can't be bettered.

I think Breitner and Masopust defensive credentials were questioned as well but in a free role, they would have been massive game winners.
 
Arbitrium said:
Cat is 100% spot on, although people’s reasons for voting extend far beyond tactical reasons. Of course there are those who would vote for enigma irrespective of my line up, and I doubt anyone would dispute that. And there are those that would vote against me, regardless of who I was playing, and I doubt anyone would dispute that.

This game proves that set up and GOAT defenders mean feck all. They are against a system that no one can conclusively say would work because there are too many doubts over it. But it’s worth nothing.
Click to expand...

As for the bold, every draft someone thinks it's a good idea letting others get all the attackers/fancy mids and string a quality defense and it always wins feckall unless you are really lucky. Tier 1 defenders will never have the same pull as Tier 1 attackers, and for good reason.

I doubt the result would be different if you play this match in a totally new forum.
 
Hard one to separate. Great defence versus a great attack and fairly similar inbetween.

Moby said:
As for the bold, every draft someone thinks it's a good idea letting others get all the attackers/fancy mids and string a quality defense and it always wins feckall unless you are really lucky. Tier 1 defenders will never have the same pull as Tier 1 attackers, and for good reason.

I doubt the result would be different if you play this match in a totally new forum.
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Aye true. This match was a good test of that principle.
 
Moby said:
As for the bold, every draft someone thinks it's a good idea letting others get all the attackers/fancy mids and string a quality defense and it always wins feckall unless you are really lucky. Tier 1 defenders will never have the same pull as Tier 1 attackers, and for good reason.

I doubt the result would be different if you play this match in a totally new forum.
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Although if he had gone properly defensive with Makelele in for Schiaffino I think he could have won it.
 
Arbi's lack a famous 'game changer' in his attack. Agreed with poster who said that getting Zidane would be a big coup to his wonderful defence team.
 
I certainly don‘t want to step on anybody‘s toes, but I think it is a bit disrespectful to suggest that managers are cnuts and always vote based on tactical consideration of future progress. It puts the idea forward that anyone with a different viewpoint is not worthy to vote and express his opinion.

I asked very specific questions to get to know more about the match and I often want to explain myself why I chose to vote that way. Sometimes I don‘t have the time to keep discussing like today or sometimes I don‘t want to be the one discussing in every match thread ever.

That is still no reason to completely dismiss the opinions of managers and paint them all as cnuts who do everthing for their own advantage.

I hope this narravative dies as quickly as it came up and we can go back to respecting the voters for the opponent, instead of pointing fingers.

by the way, yes I‘m drunk and I wanted to kill some time on my way home
 
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Don Alfredo said:
I certainly don‘t want to step on anybody‘s toes, but I think it is a bit disrespectful to suggest that managers are cnuts and always vote based on tactical consideration of future progress. It puts the idea forward that anyone with a different viewpoint is not worthy to vote and express his opinion.

I asked very specific questions to get to know more about the match and I often want to explain myself why I chose to vote that way. Sometimes I don‘t have the time to keep discussing like today or sometimes I don‘t want to be the one discussing in every match thread ever.

That is still no reason to completely dismiss the opinions of managers and paint them all as cnuts who do everthing for their own advantage.

I hope this narravative dies as quickly as it came up and we can go back to respecting the voters for the opponent, instead of pointing fingers.

by the way, yes I‘m drunk and I wanted to kill some time on my way home
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Shut up
 
GodShaveTheQueen said:
I expected you to go with a 5-3-2

-------------Kempes--Crespo---------------
------Masopust-----------Breitner----------
Carlos---------Makelele-------------Alves
--------Nesta---Baresi----Thuram---------

I think Breitner and Masopust have way more attacking output than most other B2B midfielders. That includes a great goal output along with play making.

I rate Carlos and Alves more than Facchetti and Alberto in terms of attacking output.

You would then have 6 players almost always free to attack with a defense that can't be bettered.

I think Breitner and Masopust defensive credentials were questioned as well but in a free role, they would have been massive game winners.
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I like this lineup a lot more. Did not realize Makelele was an option.
 
Don Alfredo said:
I certainly don‘t want to step on anybody‘s toes, but I think it is a bit disrespectful to suggest that managers are cnuts and always vote based on tactical consideration of future progress. It puts the idea forward that anyone with a different viewpoint is not worthy to vote and express his opinion.

I asked very specific questions to get to know more about the match and I often want to explain myself why I chose to vote that way. Sometimes I don‘t have the time to keep discussing like today or sometimes I don‘t want to be the one discussing in every match thread ever.

That is still no reason to completely dismiss the opinions of managers and paint them all as cnuts who do everthing for their own advantage.

I hope this narravative dies as quickly as it came up and we can go back to respecting the voters for the opponent, instead of pointing fingers.

by the way, yes I‘m drunk and I wanted to kill some time on my way home
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bird in one hand and cell phone in the other. that's how the don rolls.
 
Dave loses one match and suddenly the entire forum is rigged, but only those who voted for Enigma! All votes for them are because voters are his friends or have something against Dave but all his voters are football scholars who truly appreciated the invincible tactically flawless marvel of that team that he built.

Unnecessary crap peddled by sore losers and isn't welcome here one bit.
 
Ecstatic said:
Sure but I have a question for
@Arbitrium
@Enigma_87

I would like to know one thing. Why do you think you have a better team?

SERIOUS QUESTION :-)
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Not to go into the same debate again mate, but to me we had the superior attack, flanks and our central defence was top notch, despite not as good as Arbitrium's. Sammer is in his zone here and in the form that won him the Ballon D'or. Ferrara and Puyol would make a top notch stoppers whilst the midfields are more or less equal.

What it boils to when you have 2 great teams is who will be the difference maker and since we're going for the win as an outome of the game if there isn't that much discrepancy elsewhere I'd always back the better attack and the difference maker in Messi.
 
GodShaveTheQueen said:
I expected you to go with a 5-3-2

-------------Kempes--Crespo---------------
------Masopust-----------Breitner----------
Carlos---------Makelele-------------Alves
--------Nesta---Baresi----Thuram---------

I think Breitner and Masopust have way more attacking output than most other B2B midfielders. That includes a great goal output along with play making.

I rate Carlos and Alves more than Facchetti and Alberto in terms of attacking output.

You would then have 6 players almost always free to attack with a defense that can't be bettered.

I think Breitner and Masopust defensive credentials were questioned as well but in a free role, they would have been massive game winners.
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Yeah that's a good option considering you have Makelele shielding and standing between the lines where Messi is likely to drop. Masopust and Breitner have excellent scoring records and although Schiaffino poses a great playmaking option and being sulky on the ball, maybe that personnel would fit more to a deeper sitting back approach.

Still against 5-3-2 it would be a little short in attacking sense and harder for Arbitrium team to score considering we will have the number advantage at the back most of the time.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Yeah that's a good option considering you have Makelele shielding and standing between the lines where Messi is likely to drop. Masopust and Breitner have excellent scoring records and although Schiaffino poses a great playmaking option and being sulky on the ball, maybe that personnel would fit more to a deeper sitting back approach.

Still against 5-3-2 it would be a little short in attacking sense and harder for Arbitrium team to score considering we will have the number advantage at the back most of the time.
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Yea, more of a smash and grab approach but I can't think of a better back line and Makelele to pull it off. I honestly think the scoreline would have been reverse in such an approach.

Also, Crespo's history of playing in two striker attacks and Kempes's free roaming nature (ala 1978 WC, his absolute peak), is quite complimentary. Carlos and Alves feeding Crespo's head, Masopust/Breitner both capable of drifting wide while Kempes runs around as he wishes. Its not that shallow or weak an attack. Messi dropping in hole took the shine off that excellent Masopust/Breitner MF (rightly so).

I imagined going ahead, all he would need to do is replace the front 2 and that would be the draft won. The restrictions would porobably need some time to work with in getting the right two, but considering the rest of the side is final ready, I would have expected him to eventually get the right setting.

Tough luck running into a draw with similar formation. The attack comparisons left it very difficult to ever get a lead in arguments.

Also, not sure why Robben didnt get love playing with Messi. Robben is more than capable of being the run at defense and make a finish role without too much of a deeper role. His 2014 WC role would have been perfect here. The older post tiki taka, slightly slower Messi would have absolutely loved playing with him. I know you'd probably make a replacement considering the mixed reactions, but that attack is also final ready for me.
 
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Moby said:
Dave loses one match and suddenly the entire forum is rigged, but only those who voted for Enigma! All votes for them are because voters are his friends or have something against Dave but all his voters are football scholars who truly appreciated the invincible tactically flawless marvel of that team that he built.

Unnecessary crap peddled by sore losers and isn't welcome here one bit.
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This is akin to someone who just spent $20 on lottery tickets having a go at someone who lost $15 at the casino
 
This is akin to cut the whole crap and move the heck on. Or do what the cat did leave the whole rigged tactical voting sham and run along.
 
Moby said:
This is akin to cut the whole crap and move the heck on. Or do what the cat did leave the whole rigged tactical voting sham and run along.
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Don’t ever talk to me like this again or I swear before all the old gods and the new that I will hit that report button
 
I’m shivering at the thought of another one of your match threads where the score goes against you early doors and then you just don’t comment.

One page Moby :lol:
 
GodShaveTheQueen said:
Also, not sure why Robben didnt get love playing with Messi. Robben is more than capable of being the run at defense and make a finish role without too much of a deeper role. His 2014 WC role would have been perfect here. The older post tiki taka, slightly slower Messi would have absolutely loved playing with him. I know you'd probably make a replacement considering the mixed reactions, but that attack is also final ready for me.
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Yeah I’m not sure why he didn’t get much love especially since in the main thread the attack received applause when we picked them.

Maybe it’s due Robben generally not getting much love in all time drafts.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Yeah I’m not sure why he didn’t get much love especially since in the main thread the attack received applause when we picked them.

Maybe it’s due Robben generally not getting much love in all time drafts.
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And rightfully so in this set up.

I think the Carlos Alberto messi combo would outshine Messi robben
 
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