The Remake Draft

NoPace said:
What do you mean? I ask because I have no idea what do with this 12th pick. Or does anyone have any explanation as to what a logical strategy/purpose is for this pick?

@Raees, @anant you have permission to go ahead. I have my XI so I'm not too worried about this pick.
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For the most part I agree that the 12th pick in this case is kind of pointless. I think it's just a backup if people's interpretations of the rules are different to yours. My 12th/extra pick was Michael Owen, for a couple of reasons.
  1. In anticipation of a discussion re-opening about whether the XI shown in the graphic accurately represents that team's best XI
  2. In case a discussion opened up about whether we're supposed to be replacing the players in the team, their specific role in the team, or somewhere in between
Hurst and Hunt were two very different players but they were reduced to playing basically the same role - the tireless, slightly clumsy workhorse with an occasional eye for goal. Kane and Vardy fit that role well. However if you take a step back and look at the individuals, Roger Hunt was compared to Jimmy Greaves by Shankly.

Goal.com said:
His role at Anfield was a penalty box predator, a pure goal scorer who was fed by two out-and-out wingers in the shape of Ian Callaghan and Peter Thompson. Or as Bill Shankly put it, "We wanted him to concentrate on goal scoring, in the same way Jimmy Greaves did at Tottenham. Mind you, Roger didn't just slide them in quietly, like Jimmy. He blasted them in."
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And if you watch his highlights video you can see why.



In that case, Michael Owen is a much better fit. Similarly Jimmy Greaves started half the tournament while Hurst started the other half - and that's purely due to Greaves' injury. Can we really say that the team they played in the final was their best team? If the argument swings the other way then Michael Owen is unquestionably the closest player to Jimmy Greaves in 50 years.
 
I'm heading out for dinner that it's game of thrones ritual but will be back in about 4 hours
 
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01) Tuppet (Inter 1964, 1-3-4-2) - 1. Ronaldo 2. Pirlo 3. Puyol 4. Ricardo Carvalho 5. Di Maria 6. David Silva 7. Carlos Tevez 8. Pepe 9. De Gea 10. Kante 11. Sorin
02) paulscholes18/Marty1968 (Germany 1972, 4-3-3)- 1. Nesta 2 Vidal 3 RVN 4 Hummels 5. Veron 6. Marcelo 7. Cavani 8. Ljungberg 9. Neuer 10. Lichtsteiner 11. Van Bommel
03) crappycraperson (Milan 1989, 4-4-2) - 1. Ronaldinho 2. Thiago Silva 3. Beckham 4. Crespo 5. Rooney 6. Gattuso 7. Kompany 8. Juanfran 9. Filipe Luis 10. Kroos 11. ????
04) Downcast (Juve 1983, Lop-sided 4-4-2) - 1. Kaká 2. Shevchenko 3. Zambrotta 4. Xavi Hernandez 5. Bonucci 6. Riquelme 7. Barzagli 8. Senna 9. Matuidi 10. Courtois 11. Kuyt
05) harms (Ajax 1995, 3-3-1-3) - 1. T. Müller 2. J. Martínez 3. Abidal 4. Touré 5. Essien 6. Walcott 7. Badstuber 8. Darmian 9. Valdés 10. Błaszczykowski 11. Kluivert
06) DavidG (River 1941, 3-2-5) - 1. T. Henry 2. Bale 3. Ivan Cordoba. 4. Ibrahimovic 5. Chiellini 6. Giuly 7. Di Natale 8. Stankovic 9. Heinze 10. Ramires 11. Thiago Alcantara
07) Šjor Bepo (GER 1990, 3-5-2) - 1. Suarez 2. Ribery 3. Boateng 4. Marquez 5. Lucio 6. Gundogan 7. Forlan 8. Buffon 9. Turan 10. Ujfalusi 11. Fabio Aurelio
08) Gio (Hungary 1953, 3-2-1-4) - 1. Totti 2. Raul 3. Robben 4. De Rossi 5. Verratti 6. Klose 7. Deisler 8. Ivanovic 9. Helguera 10. Valencia 11. Kaladze 12. Bravo
09) Enigma_87 (ITA 1934, 2-3-2-3) - 1. Seedorf 2. Busquets 3. Eto'o 4. Samuel 5. Hazard 6. Robin van Persie 7. Sagnol 8. Chivu 9. Varane 10. Cech 11. Mahrez 12. James Rodriguez
10) P-Nut0712/mazhar13 (BRA 1982, 4-2-2-2) - 1. Neymar 2. Pogba 3. van Bronckhorst 4. Marchisio 5. Maicon 6. De Bruyne 7. Rakitic 8. Drogba 9. Papastathopoulos 10. Luisao 11. Júlio César 12. Cazorla
11) Raees/anant (Austria 1934, 2-3-5)- 1. Schweinsteiger 2. Alaba 3. Griezmann 4. D. Alves 5. S. Ramos 6. Agüero 7. Dybala 8. L. King 9. Willian 10. Douglas Costa 11. Samir Handanovic 12. Makaay
12) NoPace (Arsenal 1931, 3-2-2-3) - 1. Godin 2. Mascherano 3. Fabregas 4. Alexis Sanchez 5. Lampard 6. Thiago Motta 7. Azpilicueta 8. Mkhitaryan 9. Diego Costa 10. Gallas 11. Hugo Lloris
13) Brwned (ENG 1966, 4-1-3-2) - 1. Rio Ferdinand 2. Gerrard 3. Cole 4. Terry 5. Kane 6. Owen 7. G. Neville 8. Hargreaves 9. Hart 10. Vardy 11. Dele Alli 12. Noble
14) Kazi (BRA 1958, 4-2-4) - 1. Modrić 2. Vidic 3. David Villa 4. Carrick 5. Lewandowski 6. Joaquin 7. Evra 8. Marquinhos 9. Casillas 10. Vicente 11. Gabiel Milito 12. T. Fosu-Mensah
15) EAP (Barca 1992, 3-4-3) - 1. P Vieira 2. X Alonso 3. Pedro 4. G Pique 5. A Martial 6. D Blind 7. J Valdivia 8. Deco 9. W Brown 10. R Baraja 11. J Vertonghen 12. Reina
16) MJJ/VivaJanuzaj (Dynamo 1975, 4-1-3-2) - 1.Lahm 2. Iniesta 3. Reus 4. Koke 5. Cambiasso 6. Ballack 7. Torres 8. Laporte 9. Alba 10. Koscielny 11. Nainggolan 12. Navas
 
01) Tuppet (Inter 1964, 1-3-4-2) - 1. Ronaldo 2. Pirlo 3. Puyol 4. Ricardo Carvalho 5. Di Maria 6. David Silva 7. Carlos Tevez 8. Pepe 9. De Gea 10. Kante 11. Sorin
02) paulscholes18/Marty1968 (Germany 1972, 4-3-3)- 1. Nesta 2 Vidal 3 RVN 4 Hummels 5. Veron 6. Marcelo 7. Cavani 8. Ljungberg 9. Neuer 10. Lichtsteiner 11. Van Bommel
03) crappycraperson (Milan 1989, 4-4-2) - 1. Ronaldinho 2. Thiago Silva 3. Beckham 4. Crespo 5. Rooney 6. Gattuso 7. Kompany 8. Juanfran 9. Filipe Luis 10. Kroos 11. ????
04) Downcast (Juve 1983, Lop-sided 4-4-2) - 1. Kaká 2. Shevchenko 3. Zambrotta 4. Xavi Hernandez 5. Bonucci 6. Riquelme 7. Barzagli 8. Senna 9. Matuidi 10. Courtois 11. Kuyt 12. Tudor
05) harms (Ajax 1995, 3-3-1-3) - 1. T. Müller 2. J. Martínez 3. Abidal 4. Touré 5. Essien 6. Walcott 7. Badstuber 8. Darmian 9. Valdés 10. Błaszczykowski 11. Kluivert 12. Alan smith
06) DavidG (River 1941, 3-2-5) - 1. T. Henry 2. Bale 3. Ivan Cordoba. 4. Ibrahimovic 5. Chiellini 6. Giuly 7. Di Natale 8. Stankovic 9. Heinze 10. Ramires 11. Thiago Alcantara 12. Akinfeev
07) Šjor Bepo (GER 1990, 3-5-2) - 1. Suarez 2. Ribery 3. Boateng 4. Marquez 5. Lucio 6. Gundogan 7. Forlan 8. Buffon 9. Turan 10. Ujfalusi 11. Fabio Aurelio 12. Adriano
08) Gio (Hungary 1953, 3-2-1-4) - 1. Totti 2. Raul 3. Robben 4. De Rossi 5. Verratti 6. Klose 7. Deisler 8. Ivanovic 9. Helguera 10. Valencia 11. Kaladze 12. Bravo
09) Enigma_87 (ITA 1934, 2-3-2-3) - 1. Seedorf 2. Busquets 3. Eto'o 4. Samuel 5. Hazard 6. Robin van Persie 7. Sagnol 8. Chivu 9. Varane 10. Cech 11. Mahrez 12. James Rodriguez
10) P-Nut0712/mazhar13 (BRA 1982, 4-2-2-2) - 1. Neymar 2. Pogba 3. van Bronckhorst 4. Marchisio 5. Maicon 6. De Bruyne 7. Rakitic 8. Drogba 9. Papastathopoulos 10. Luisao 11. Júlio César 12. Cazorla
11) Raees/anant (Austria 1934, 2-3-5)- 1. Schweinsteiger 2. Alaba 3. Griezmann 4. D. Alves 5. S. Ramos 6. Agüero 7. Dybala 8. L. King 9. Willian 10. Douglas Costa 11. Samir Handanovic 12. Makaay
12) NoPace (Arsenal 1931, 3-2-2-3) - 1. Godin 2. Mascherano 3. Fabregas 4. Alexis Sanchez 5. Lampard 6. Thiago Motta 7. Azpilicueta 8. Mkhitaryan 9. Diego Costa 10. Gallas 11. Hugo Lloris
13) Brwned (ENG 1966, 4-1-3-2) - 1. Rio Ferdinand 2. Gerrard 3. Cole 4. Terry 5. Kane 6. Owen 7. G. Neville 8. Hargreaves 9. Hart 10. Vardy 11. Dele Alli 12. Noble
14) Kazi (BRA 1958, 4-2-4) - 1. Modrić 2. Vidic 3. David Villa 4. Carrick 5. Lewandowski 6. Joaquin 7. Evra 8. Marquinhos 9. Casillas 10. Vicente 11. Gabiel Milito 12. T. Fosu-Mensah
15) EAP (Barca 1992, 3-4-3) - 1. P Vieira 2. X Alonso 3. Pedro 4. G Pique 5. A Martial 6. D Blind 7. J Valdivia 8. Deco 9. W Brown 10. R Baraja 11. J Vertonghen 12. Reina
16) MJJ/VivaJanuzaj (Dynamo 1975, 4-1-3-2) - 1.Lahm 2. Iniesta 3. Reus 4. Koke 5. Cambiasso 6. Ballack 7. Torres 8. Laporte 9. Alba 10. Koscielny 11. Nainggolan 12. Navas

@crappycraperson
 
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I needed a large, hard-working, strong and imposing defender: a tight man-marker and a hard tackling defender, with great tactical intelligence given his versatility. He also excelled in the air, making him a dangerous goal threat during set pieces.
 
Time up for @crappycraperson again?? May as well make our final pick then @paulscholes18

Think we were both agreed so will post it since I'm here...

Can't have him not featuring in this draft....too good a player to miss out. Pablo Aimar

aimar060729_300.jpg


Over to @Tuppet to finish off the draft..
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
I have a bunch of questions. Should I wait until the matches?

And you've drafted brilliantly. If this was "just a team" in a regular post 1975 draft it would be an epic first round team.
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Thanks mate. Yeah I'll try to explain as much as possible each player roles, especially the Meazza role depending on whether I go with Persie or James in it, the wingbacks(Chivu, Sagnol) and wingers.

I could've drafted a bit bigger names for example in Chivu's position but he slots excellently on the left in terms of qualities that resemble the system best - same goes for Sagnol as first and foremost they should be excellent defensively and have the ability to also overload the midfield and start a counter.

All in all I've put it as an example and probably a suggestions for the OP's to include the original and the remake next to each other so that voters can have the better idea and see who is replaced with who.
 
A suggestion to consider @Joga Bonito

Rather than have the usual polls to decide the winner. You can have voters post a score between 1 (barely resembles) to 10 (perfect re-creation) based on how close the team has been re-created. Ever voter gives a score to both the match participants. At the end, the scores are averaged out and manager with higher average wins.

For example everyone votes like:
Manager A: 6/10
Manager B: 7/10

Which then get average out at the end.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
A suggestion to consider @Joga Bonito

Rather than have the usual polls to decide the winner. You can have voters post a score between 1 (barely resembles) to 10 (perfect re-creation) based on how close the team has been re-created. Ever voter gives a score to both the match participants. At the end, the scores are averaged out and manager with higher average wins.

For example everyone votes like:
Manager A: 6/10
Manager B: 7/10

Which then get average out at the end.
Click to expand...
It's a great idea actually, if it won't be too hard for @Joga Bonito to keep score
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
A suggestion to consider @Joga Bonito

Rather than have the usual polls to decide the winner. You can have voters post a score between 1 (barely resembles) to 10 (perfect re-creation) based on how close the team has been re-created. Ever voter gives a score to both the match participants. At the end, the scores are averaged out and manager with higher average wins.

For example everyone votes like:
Manager A: 6/10
Manager B: 7/10

Which then get average out at the end.
Click to expand...

Really like this idea. Makes sense.
 
That's a nice call. Worth a shot. Biggest issue would be the effect of outliers (eg 4-5 voters painstakingly deciding between a 7 or an 8 would be rendered meaningless by 1 voter knee-jerking to a 2 or 3 for whatever reason).

Or you use each managers scores for 2 reasons. First to determine how many managers voted one team higher than the other (to form a traditional scoreline to determine the outcome). Secondly to provide an overall likeness rating out of 10 which could also be used in the event of a tie above.
 
Gio said:
Biggest issue would be the effect of outliers (eg 4-5 voters painstakingly deciding between a 7 or an 8 would be rendered meaningless by 1 voter knee-jerking to a 2 or 3 for whatever reason).
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The problem we had before with scan votes is that we were unable to determine whether they looked at the match up and/or just randomly voted because of presence of their favourite player etc.

Here in this case,
1) it's not an simple vote but a qualitative grading and
2) when they put in a number, it'll be much easier to identify the outlier (knee jerk) votes and the manager/draft masters can seek further comments. If none are forthcoming it'll be easy to classify them as outlier/knee-jerk and discount them (at draft master's discretion)

After last draft's fiasco, I don't think we'll have knee jerk shenanigans now.
 
I think it's a very good idea.

Just remove votes that are + or - 3 grades out of the average. For example if you have one manager receiving 6.7 or 7.5 on average, all votes below 4 will be discarded. I think that would even it out.
 
I like the idea of the grading of votes. Means people will have had to read the rules to vote in the first place.
 
If you opt for a grading of votes and to make things easier, then you should limit the number of grades: 1 to 5 maximum.

Then, you could specify the rating. An example if the rating is from 1 to 5 would give:

- 1: inconsistent/inadequate
- 2: correct
- 3: good re-creation
- 4: excellent re-creation: upgrades
- 5: perfect re-creation: upgrades, alchimy between the modern players...

Whatever the system, scan votes can occur.

I don't have any particular preference.
 
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01) Tuppet (Inter 1964, 1-3-4-2) - 1. Ronaldo 2. Pirlo 3. Puyol 4. Ricardo Carvalho 5. Di Maria 6. David Silva 7. Carlos Tevez 8. Pepe 9. De Gea 10. Kante 11. Sorin 12. Cuadrado
02) paulscholes18/Marty1968 (Germany 1972, 4-3-3)- 1. Nesta 2 Vidal 3 RVN 4 Hummels 5. Veron 6. Marcelo 7. Cavani 8. Ljungberg 9. Neuer 10. Lichtsteiner 11. Van Bommel 12. Aimar
03) crappycraperson (Milan 1989, 4-4-2) - 1. Ronaldinho 2. Thiago Silva 3. Beckham 4. Crespo 5. Rooney 6. Gattuso 7. Kompany 8. Juanfran 9. Filipe Luis 10. Kroos 11. ????
04) Downcast (Juve 1983, Lop-sided 4-4-2) - 1. Kaká 2. Shevchenko 3. Zambrotta 4. Xavi Hernandez 5. Bonucci 6. Riquelme 7. Barzagli 8. Senna 9. Matuidi 10. Courtois 11. Kuyt
05) harms (Ajax 1995, 3-3-1-3) - 1. T. Müller 2. J. Martínez 3. Abidal 4. Touré 5. Essien 6. Walcott 7. Badstuber 8. Darmian 9. Valdés 10. Błaszczykowski 11. Kluivert
06) DavidG (River 1941, 3-2-5) - 1. T. Henry 2. Bale 3. Ivan Cordoba. 4. Ibrahimovic 5. Chiellini 6. Giuly 7. Di Natale 8. Stankovic 9. Heinze 10. Ramires 11. Thiago Alcantara
07) Šjor Bepo (GER 1990, 3-5-2) - 1. Suarez 2. Ribery 3. Boateng 4. Marquez 5. Lucio 6. Gundogan 7. Forlan 8. Buffon 9. Turan 10. Ujfalusi 11. Fabio Aurelio
08) Gio (Hungary 1953, 3-2-1-4) - 1. Totti 2. Raul 3. Robben 4. De Rossi 5. Verratti 6. Klose 7. Deisler 8. Ivanovic 9. Helguera 10. Valencia 11. Kaladze 12. Bravo
09) Enigma_87 (ITA 1934, 2-3-2-3) - 1. Seedorf 2. Busquets 3. Eto'o 4. Samuel 5. Hazard 6. Robin van Persie 7. Sagnol 8. Chivu 9. Varane 10. Cech 11. Mahrez 12. James Rodriguez
10) P-Nut0712/mazhar13 (BRA 1982, 4-2-2-2) - 1. Neymar 2. Pogba 3. van Bronckhorst 4. Marchisio 5. Maicon 6. De Bruyne 7. Rakitic 8. Drogba 9. Papastathopoulos 10. Luisao 11. Júlio César 12. Cazorla
11) Raees/anant (Austria 1934, 2-3-5)- 1. Schweinsteiger 2. Alaba 3. Griezmann 4. D. Alves 5. S. Ramos 6. Agüero 7. Dybala 8. L. King 9. Willian 10. Douglas Costa 11. Samir Handanovic 12. Makaay
12) NoPace (Arsenal 1931, 3-2-2-3) - 1. Godin 2. Mascherano 3. Fabregas 4. Alexis Sanchez 5. Lampard 6. Thiago Motta 7. Azpilicueta 8. Mkhitaryan 9. Diego Costa 10. Gallas 11. Hugo Lloris
13) Brwned (ENG 1966, 4-1-3-2) - 1. Rio Ferdinand 2. Gerrard 3. Cole 4. Terry 5. Kane 6. Owen 7. G. Neville 8. Hargreaves 9. Hart 10. Vardy 11. Dele Alli 12. Noble
14) Kazi (BRA 1958, 4-2-4) - 1. Modrić 2. Vidic 3. David Villa 4. Carrick 5. Lewandowski 6. Joaquin 7. Evra 8. Marquinhos 9. Casillas 10. Vicente 11. Gabiel Milito 12. T. Fosu-Mensah
15) EAP (Barca 1992, 3-4-3) - 1. P Vieira 2. X Alonso 3. Pedro 4. G Pique 5. A Martial 6. D Blind 7. J Valdivia 8. Deco 9. W Brown 10. R Baraja 11. J Vertonghen 12. Reina
16) MJJ/VivaJanuzaj (Dynamo 1975, 4-1-3-2) - 1.Lahm 2. Iniesta 3. Reus 4. Koke 5. Cambiasso 6. Ballack 7. Torres 8. Laporte 9. Alba 10. Koscielny 11. Nainggolan 12. Navas

@crappycraperson
 
Raees said:

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I think your game will generate a pretty good debate, especially on Alves and Alaba roles, which I find interesting in remaking an old team. That and of course the Sindelaar one. Well drafted mate, considering the task at hand.
 
Downcast said:
If you opt for a grading of votes and to make things easier, then you should limit the number of grades: 1 to 5 maximum.

Then, you could specify the rating. An example if the rating is from 1 to 5 would give:

- 1: inconsistent/inadequate
- 2: correct
- 3: good re-creation
- 4: excellent re-creation: upgrades
- 5: perfect re-creation: upgrades, alchimy between the modern players...

Whatever the system, scan votes can occur.

I don't have any particular preference.
Click to expand...

Tbh, I'd still prefer it to be 10 as in many matches (esp in later rounds) the difference would not be that wide. Two good teams with mostly voters intuition making the difference. 8/10 and 9/10 are both very good teams, but that narrow margin may well make the winning difference.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Tbh, I'd still prefer it to be 10 as in many matches (esp in later rounds) the difference would not be that wide. Two good teams with mostly voters intuition making the difference. 8/10 and 9/10 are both very good teams, but that narrow margin may well make the winning difference.
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Seconded
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
A suggestion to consider @Joga Bonito

Rather than have the usual polls to decide the winner. You can have voters post a score between 1 (barely resembles) to 10 (perfect re-creation) based on how close the team has been re-created. Ever voter gives a score to both the match participants. At the end, the scores are averaged out and manager with higher average wins.

For example everyone votes like:
Manager A: 6/10
Manager B: 7/10

Which then get average out at the end.
Click to expand...

That is definitely a nice idea and it's currently under consideration by the draft committee.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
A suggestion to consider @Joga Bonito

Rather than have the usual polls to decide the winner. You can have voters post a score between 1 (barely resembles) to 10 (perfect re-creation) based on how close the team has been re-created. Ever voter gives a score to both the match participants. At the end, the scores are averaged out and manager with higher average wins.

For example everyone votes like:
Manager A: 6/10
Manager B: 7/10

Which then get average out at the end.
Click to expand...

Drop the high and low scores to reduce outliers from determining it?
 
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