Surely a certain someone should be added to the restrictions, I rate him at least as highly as Cristiano
The Remake Draft
- Thread starter Joga Bonito
- Start date
No sucking up to the committee, son!
But thanks. We'll see how well you all like us a bit further down the road.
He was discussed in the other thread.
Key part is that he isn't that useful in a purely tactical sense. You can use his individual quality to upgrade a position in your team - but that's it. You can't use him directly against an opponent - the whole dynamics is different in this draft, individual players don't matter to the extent they normally do.
Shame I missed out on this, would have been a bit of fun.
Glad to see La Maquina making an appearance too, especially after researching them into the early hours of the night on more than one occasion.
Good luck all!
Glad to see La Maquina making an appearance too, especially after researching them into the early hours of the night on more than one occasion.
Good luck all!
You can be my AM if you want, this is my 1st one since the newbies
Monday through Friday I'm pretty much MIA for now, so wouldn't be much help for you unfortunately. I'll have to stick to watching this one from afar. Cheers for the offer though!
Still a bit odd to have C.Ronaldo banner and not Luis Ronaldo. To me the second one is better and not much difference in terms of tactical outlay. Anyhow won't make such a difference.
Trust me , I'm going to do it proud.
Well, the one you have to block is Messi - as he's the one who can make a potentially
disproportionate difference: He can fill certain roles no other player in the pool can, and so forth.
The rationale for blocking C. Ronaldo is different – it's convention, for one thing: You block the one, you block the other. And he's a player who tends to divide opinion in a way that's often just tedious, not very interesting, etc. So, blocking him has a “better safe than sorry” function if you will.
And he is more useful than his namesake in this context, since he can function on both flanks in distinctly different (tactical) roles, as well as being someone you can field more centrally in several formations.
Can we get the picking order and kick this off?
Post 53 is the running order,
Is this confirmed ? I thought it would be fairer to do another randomizer
Sorry, I didn't look at it properly saw it and just thought it was the running order.
It's not confirmed as the running order, gents.
Joga will either confirm it or do another randomizer when he shows up. There's no rush here - the original scheme was to kick this off around Tuesday, so we're actually ahead of schedule.
Joga will either confirm it or do another randomizer when he shows up. There's no rush here - the original scheme was to kick this off around Tuesday, so we're actually ahead of schedule.
Anyone not playing in the draft able to do the randomiser for us to get this started?
Research time
CR7 you can use on the flanks I give you that but his namesake is a complete forward. Would fit as a #9 in pretty much every single of those formations(and best player of the pool IMO).
Either way not too fussed about this. The one you definitely had to block was Messi no second thoughts about it.
The formation blueprints will probably have to be sorted out before it kicks off officially - and there might be one or two minor details to sort out in addition to that.
Patience, sir.
It will kick off shortly - and meanwhile there should be plenty of general research to do.
Surely we can't kick off without the formation blueprints, especially given the nature of the draft and lack of tactical flexibility.
The jargon in here is fantastic .
When you say formation blueprint , do you mean the way your team HAS to line up ?
When you say formation blueprint , do you mean the way your team HAS to line up ?
The formation is known. Tactics you need to research. Surely if they get the formation wrong, it a point to the negative. What more do the mods need to do?
An example (ideally the most typical one) of how the (classic) team you've been allocated lined up. It's not more complicated than that. In most cases the examples will be obvious: Lineups from famous finals, mostly.
In theory you could have been told to – freely – compose a máchina style team, leaving it entirely up to you to interpret what a máchina style team is, but too much freedom (of interpretation) can easily lead to pointless bickering about technicalities: With a blueprint, there's a concrete starting point everyone has to acknowledge. Your task becomes simpler: Draft players who are suited to playing the given roles in a particular, historical XI.
The result will – hopefully – be a better understanding of what that team was all about, what sort of players featured in those roles, how it all fit together, etc.
I think it was Joga that mentioned that there can be tactical(or possibly formation) tweaks here and there, so that(if it is still on) needs to be clarified to what extend, a bit before kicking off IMO. Not asking for mine per say, but for example the Austrian Wunderteam I've seen variations in terms of formation - for example Sindelaar's position - up top/false 9 or withdrawn CF behind the 2 inside forwards.
That begs the question - should there be a formation layout in the OP that the managers have to follow, for example we have to put the exact formation in regards to that specific blueprint year, or we have some creative freedom and move some positions a bit, but keeping the shape?
At least this is what I didn't think was cleared in the OP. I don't mean that every one gets a formation, tactics and everything else just to fill 11 spots, just some fine details. I'll give you an example, this time with the WW one. It's again based on ideology and for example it is based on 2 withdrawn inside forwards as main source of creativity but they are close to the center of the pitch - and that can help in wide areas. In other words if I have to recreate it positional wise(strictly) do I try to fit in 2 forwards(because the system back then played withdrawn forwards) or I can field 2 box to box players capable of roaming to the flanks?
The other question is - I can still keep to the metodo and stick to the ideology but in terms of modern conversion I can easily depict it as 4-1-2-3 or even lopsided 4-3-3 and gif it all up to with/without the ball to the WW formation. Will that be considered an issue because we have to field the exact historical formation in the OP?
In the OP itself is about tactics and style of play, but is doesn't say about fielding a strict formation, just following the blueprint of the ideology.
That and what Chester said later about posting certain additional formations for some of the systems.
Do we pick players most like our set up, With Gerd Muller in 1972 I would need to pick a player like him? Be pointless picking one like Eusebio for example?
More on blueprint/player style replication
As said above, this blueprint business isn't all that complicated. It's just the most typical incarnation of the team in question, represented by a formation illustration.
There's your blueprint: Example Rovers, 2065.
Where does Example play? What's his basic role? What sort of player is he? Fast/slow/technical/physical? And so forth. Now, dig up a suitable candidate for filling that role of his. And do the same for his team mates.
The main task of the managers here is one of casting, you could say – not one of messing about too much with the actual system.
There's your blueprint: Example Rovers, 2065.
Where does Example play? What's his basic role? What sort of player is he? Fast/slow/technical/physical? And so forth. Now, dig up a suitable candidate for filling that role of his. And do the same for his team mates.
The main task of the managers here is one of casting, you could say – not one of messing about too much with the actual system.
One sec, the blueprints and the picking order are coming right up and the drafting will kick off on 25th May 15:00 GMT. Use the next two days wisely for research purposes.
Please keep in mind that researching for certain set-ups is going to be more harder and more intensive, relative to the more modern set-ups anyway. So if you are certain about your set-ups or have finished researching, you can begin to work on the in depth profile of your set-up - which you can post in the draft thread itself, later on.
Please keep in mind that researching for certain set-ups is going to be more harder and more intensive, relative to the more modern set-ups anyway. So if you are certain about your set-ups or have finished researching, you can begin to work on the in depth profile of your set-up - which you can post in the draft thread itself, later on.
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Picking Order & Tactical set ups
Picking order
1) Tuppet = Inter Milan, 1964.
2) paulscholes18 = West Germany, 1972.
3) crappycraperson = AC Milan, 1989.
4) Downcast = Juventus, 1983.
5) harms = Ajax, 1995.
6) DavidG = River Plate, 1941.
7)Šjor Bepo = West Germany, 1990.
8) Gio = Hungary, 1953.
9) Enigma_87 = Italy, 1934.
10) P-Nut0712/mazhar13 = Brazil, 1982.
11) Raees/anant = Austria, 1934.
12) NoPace = Arsenal, 1931.
13) Brwned = England, 1966.
14) Kazi = Brazil, 1958.
15) Edgar Allan Pillow = Barcelona, 1992.
16) MJJ/VivaJanuzaj = Dynamo Kiev, 1975.
Tactical Set-ups to Remake
1) Catenaccio - Inter Milan 1964/Helenio Herrera (1-3-4-2)
2) Germany 1972 - Helmut Schön (4-3-3)
3) AC Milan 1989 - Sacchi (4-4-2)
4) Zona Mista - Juventus 1983/Giovanni Trapattoni (Lop-sided 4-4-2)
5) Ajax 1995 - LVG (3-3-1-3)
Kluivert and Seedorf shall be chosen
http://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/1019796
6) La Maquina River 1941 - Renato Cesarini (3-2-5)
Rodolfi to be used
7) Germany 1990 - Beckenbauer (3-5-2)
8) Mighty Magyars - Hungary 1953/Sebes (3-2-1-4)
9) Metodo - Italy 1934/Pozzo (2-3-2-3)
10) Brazil 1982 - Tele Santana (4-2-2-2)
11) Austrian Wunderteam - Austria 1932/Meisl (2-3-5)
World Cup Semi-final, 03-06-1934.
12) WM - Arsenal 1931/Chapman (3-2-2-3)
13) Wingless wonders - England 1966/Sir Alf Ramsey (4-1-3-2)
14) Brazil 1958 - Feola (4-2-4)
15) Dream Team - Barcelona 1992/Cruyff (3-4-3)
16) Dynamo Kiev 1975 - Lobanovsky (4-1-3-2)
[/QUOTE]
1) Tuppet = Inter Milan, 1964.
2) paulscholes18 = West Germany, 1972.
3) crappycraperson = AC Milan, 1989.
4) Downcast = Juventus, 1983.
5) harms = Ajax, 1995.
6) DavidG = River Plate, 1941.
7)Šjor Bepo = West Germany, 1990.
8) Gio = Hungary, 1953.
9) Enigma_87 = Italy, 1934.
10) P-Nut0712/mazhar13 = Brazil, 1982.
11) Raees/anant = Austria, 1934.
12) NoPace = Arsenal, 1931.
13) Brwned = England, 1966.
14) Kazi = Brazil, 1958.
15) Edgar Allan Pillow = Barcelona, 1992.
16) MJJ/VivaJanuzaj = Dynamo Kiev, 1975.
Tactical Set-ups to Remake
1) Catenaccio - Inter Milan 1964/Helenio Herrera (1-3-4-2)
2) Germany 1972 - Helmut Schön (4-3-3)
3) AC Milan 1989 - Sacchi (4-4-2)
4) Zona Mista - Juventus 1983/Giovanni Trapattoni (Lop-sided 4-4-2)
5) Ajax 1995 - LVG (3-3-1-3)
Kluivert and Seedorf shall be chosen
http://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/1019796
6) La Maquina River 1941 - Renato Cesarini (3-2-5)
Rodolfi to be used
7) Germany 1990 - Beckenbauer (3-5-2)
8) Mighty Magyars - Hungary 1953/Sebes (3-2-1-4)
9) Metodo - Italy 1934/Pozzo (2-3-2-3)
10) Brazil 1982 - Tele Santana (4-2-2-2)
11) Austrian Wunderteam - Austria 1932/Meisl (2-3-5)
World Cup Semi-final, 03-06-1934.
12) WM - Arsenal 1931/Chapman (3-2-2-3)
13) Wingless wonders - England 1966/Sir Alf Ramsey (4-1-3-2)
14) Brazil 1958 - Feola (4-2-4)
15) Dream Team - Barcelona 1992/Cruyff (3-4-3)
16) Dynamo Kiev 1975 - Lobanovsky (4-1-3-2)
[/QUOTE]
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Yeah, no tactical tweaks and variations allowed which is stated in the OP. So, the basic formation and the overall balance, interplay and ideology of the set-up has to be replicated. You'd be free to show tactical moves (false 9 dropping deep, formation transitions etc) and whatsoever went on in the system in the OP of your match-thread under the 'Specific Tactical Manoeuvres' segment.
So using your example, you have to use 2 withdrawn inside forwards to stay true to the original set-up, instead of tweaking it tactically.
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Yeah, the player fits are paramount and they will have to be replicated as best as possible.
Think there are one or two others from the draft discussion thread who've offered to be AMs.
Both the lists were randomised, first the manager list for the picking order and then the set-ups list. The corresponding set-ups from the randomised tactical set ups list were then assigned to the randomised manager list. You can find both the initial lists in the draft discussion thread.
Clarification on OP
Because some in the draft committee are a bit worried that some of you guys maybe didn't really get what you got yourself into here. So please read the op very carefully and if you're not sure what we want from you, ask before you make your first pick. There really are no stupid questions and there's still time left before we kick it off.
In short, we want you to look into these historical football sides, understand what was unique about them and work out the tactical nuances that made them special. Then try to recreate that in your team. Don't just build a 442 if the team you have to rebuild was a 442. Look into the specific things some of the players offered which made it work and excel.
A modern example would be Ancelotti's CL winning 442/433 side with Di Maria playing a really unique role. If you had to rebuild that, your task would be to create a similar left wing dynamic that we've seen in that team between Ronaldo, Di Maria and Marcelo. Don't just pick any quality fullback/winger/wide midfielder you can find, but try to find players who could offer that kind of play in theory, even if they aren't necessary elite players.
In short, we want you to look into these historical football sides, understand what was unique about them and work out the tactical nuances that made them special. Then try to recreate that in your team. Don't just build a 442 if the team you have to rebuild was a 442. Look into the specific things some of the players offered which made it work and excel.
A modern example would be Ancelotti's CL winning 442/433 side with Di Maria playing a really unique role. If you had to rebuild that, your task would be to create a similar left wing dynamic that we've seen in that team between Ronaldo, Di Maria and Marcelo. Don't just pick any quality fullback/winger/wide midfielder you can find, but try to find players who could offer that kind of play in theory, even if they aren't necessary elite players.
I get this and an easy example would be if your building a side that plays to a target man you'd be doing better recruiting Andy Carroll than Aguero. Easiest way I can find of explaining it.
Remember that part and parcel of this thing is to pay homage to great historical teams/systems: The latter is already there, you don't have to worry about that beyond doing research on your team/system, trying to determine precisely what sort of team/system it was – what tactical nuances made it what it was, as Balu suggests above.
So, you go about re-creating these teams by re-creating the various roles in the XI, using modern players who have traits which resemble those of the historical players they fill in for (so to speak).
The challenge is to research the roles: Who did what in this team – and who can you draft that will provide as much of the same as possible? If you can re-create the role using a player of similar individual quality – excellent. If you can do it using an even better player – even more excellent. In many cases neither will be possible, however – and in those cases drafting a solid footballer who possesses the traits (but not the quality) will be much smarter than drafting an outstanding footballer who does not possess the traits to the same degree.
So, you go about re-creating these teams by re-creating the various roles in the XI, using modern players who have traits which resemble those of the historical players they fill in for (so to speak).
The challenge is to research the roles: Who did what in this team – and who can you draft that will provide as much of the same as possible? If you can re-create the role using a player of similar individual quality – excellent. If you can do it using an even better player – even more excellent. In many cases neither will be possible, however – and in those cases drafting a solid footballer who possesses the traits (but not the quality) will be much smarter than drafting an outstanding footballer who does not possess the traits to the same degree.
Exactly. That's it - but from now on, let's remember not to name any eligible players.
My only question would be how does the voting works ? Say both team have created a side which resembles closely with the tactical templates given, with all players fitting in nicely. What would you as a voter would use as a tie breaker, individual quality or which team would win a real match ? because in that case, there are some systems which might employ players who are both quality and play in the positions the systems requires. While other teams face the trade off between quality and tactical fit.
As a contrived example, say that if a tactics demand for a target man, while other tactic allow for a fast dribbling striker or a poacher, now the best target man available is Vieri while the best fast striker is Pele, wouldn't that put the first tactic in an automatic disadvantage ?
I doubt that the teams will be flawless, the playerpool is simply too small and too weak to recreate these teams perfectly. So whoever convinces me best that his team resembles the original, gets my vote. I can't guarantee you that someone might not read the rules and just votes for Pele > Vieri based on their individual quality of course, but I think the majority of the voters should and we'll certainly try to make it as clear as possible in the match threads and the polls.
I think we simply have to leave the finer calculations to the voters: The basic question is simple: Which team is the best remake. If you, as a voter, think they're equally well/poorly re-created, you have to either call it a draw (as you normally would in a draft), or come up with a deciding factor of some kind.
Personally, I would look at individual quality – but not in the sense you suggest. I'd look at the different roles and to what extent the managers have succeeded in replicating (and perhaps even upgraded on) the individual quality of the original players.
To use a variation on your example, I'd look at the players who actually play the Pelé and Vieri roles: How close is the player in the former role to Pelé? He'll be below that level in all likelihood, but how far below? And the same for the Vieri role: Here the manager may have drafted a player who is closer to the original's level – but given that this level is lower than Pelé's to begin with, you have to factor that in...and so forth.
Sounds good, thanks for explanation guys. Is the drafting started then ? I can make the pick now.