The relative strength of the Premier League

Amar__ said:
Neither of those players are close to great. Neither of them would probably start for any of top teams in Spain. Some of them are talented, yes, but it's really quite embarassing to the league that quite new young acadamy players like Arnold and Robertson are already one of the best in the league in their position.
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If you’re talking about a group of players it should be “none” of those players, not “neither”.

Robertson isn’t a young academy player. He is a established premier league left back who is a very good player.

Trent is one of the best young players in the world in his position.

Henderson has just captained his side to the Champions league final.

It baffles me how you can claim that these players mean that Liverpool are poor. They’re all clearly better than the players I mentioned for Betis. Those players are mostly at the very end of their careers and will have physically declined.

In the last month Barcelona have signed Assou Ekotto. It doesn’t make their squad poor.
 
gaucho_10 said:
Let it all out while you can. Knock out stages of European football competitions are near. It's about time for you to go back to sleep in this thread until August.

I'm calling it the Wummminator's boom bust cycle.
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Ironically last August/September were two of the only months I didn’t post in this thread but fair enough.
 
Wumminator said:
If you’re talking about a group of players it should be “none” of those players, not “neither”.

Robertson isn’t a young academy player. He is a established premier league left back who is a very good player.

Trent is one of the best young players in the world in his position.

Henderson has just captained his side to the Champions league final.

It baffles me how you can claim that these players mean that Liverpool are poor. They’re all clearly better than the players I mentioned for Betis. Those players are mostly at the very end of their careers and will have physically declined.

In the last month Barcelona have signed Assou Ekotto. It doesn’t make their squad poor.
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I am calling them out individually, but English isn't my first language so you would probably know better.

Trent just showed up in the game and is already one of the best fullbacks in the league, tells you all about strength of the league in some positions.

They are not poor, but Milner, Henderson are average and wouldn't start for any top team, and Lovren is even worse than poor, he is shit.
 
Amar__ said:
I am calling them out individually, but English isn't my first language so you would probably know better.

Trent just showed up in the game and is already one of the best fullbacks in the league, tells you all about strength of the league in some positions.

They are not poor, but Milner, Henderson are average and wouldn't start for any top team, and Lovren is even worse than poor, he is shit.
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I don’t rate Trent that much, but I also don’t think he’s one of the best in the league.
 
Wumminator said:
I don’t rate Trent that much, but I also don’t think he’s one of the best in the league.
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I don't rate him either, but he is. Both him and Robertson, which is really disappointing.
 
Amar__ said:
I am calling them out individually, but English isn't my first language so you would probably know better.

Trent just showed up in the game and is already one of the best fullbacks in the league, tells you all about strength of the league in some positions.

They are not poor, but Milner, Henderson are average and wouldn't start for any top team, and Lovren is even worse than poor, he is shit.
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Of course he is. However if he is so bad, then how come he played in a European Cup final only months ago, and the World Cup final too. No offence, but il go with Klopp and the Croation National Manager.
 
Amar__ said:
Yeah, I thought he was bit younger tbf, I was wrong.
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I agree with the point you’re making though. I think the English teams look good atm, but a lot of PL fans will write off foreign teams and leagues, underrate players because they haven’t heard of them. I don’t watch as much foreign football outside of the big clubs, but when I did I always found the quality underrated by some PL fans.
 
Cascarino said:
I agree with the point you’re making though. I think the English teams look good atm, but a lot of PL fans will write off foreign teams and leagues, underrate players because they haven’t heard of them. I don’t watch as much foreign football outside of the big clubs, but when I did I always found the quality underrated by some PL fans.
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Eventually, english clubs will probably catch up top European clubs, mostly because they are generating far more money than the rest, but I think that they are still behind. What's interesting is that lower clubs are far worse than before for some reason, even though it shouldn't be like that because they earn a lot. West Ham are one of the richest clubs in the world ffs. And lower clubs being better than their counterparts in Spain, Germany, Italy was always strong argument in favour of Premierleague, just see Wumminator's post from few years ago.


Obi-Red-Kenobi said:
Of course he is. However if he is so bad, then how come he played in a European Cup final only months ago, and the World Cup final too. No offence, but il go with Klopp and the Croation National Manager.
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Mate, he is really bad. Majority of Liverpool fans don't like him, even though they think their every player is the best in the world. Croatians don't like him either and like to laugh at him, but they simply don't have anyone better.
 
Amar__ said:
Eventually, english clubs will probably catch up top European clubs, mostly because they are generating far more money than the rest, but I think that they are still behind. What's interesting is that lower clubs are far worse than before for some reason, even though it shouldn't be like that because they earn a lot. West Ham are one of the richest clubs in the world ffs. And lower clubs being better than their counterparts in Spain, Germany, Italy was always strong argument in favour of Premierleague, just see Wumminator's post from few years ago.




Mate, he is really bad. Majority of Liverpool fans don't like him, even though they think their every player is the best in the world. Croatians don't like him either and like to laugh at him, but they simply don't have anyone better.
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I think this season will be interesting, depending on how Liverpool and Man City do in Europe, can probably add a resurgent United depending on how they fare against PSG.

Regarding your second point about Lovren, I completely agree, he’s a weak link, but he wouldn’t be in their first 11. Gomez is an outstanding young talent imo and it’s a shame about the most recent injury news.
 
Wolves could actually do quite well in europa next season if they strengthen sufficently (and you'd assume with their ambitions they'd target some good players).

Leicester have lots of young english players so again wouldn't be the worst club to go into europa although they need to sort out the fans indifference to Puel.

Please not Eveton. Had so many campaigns in europe when they've barely done a thing.
 
Amar__ said:
What's interesting is that lower clubs are far worse than before for some reason, even though it shouldn't be like that because they earn a lot. West Ham are one of the richest clubs in the world ffs. And lower clubs being better than their counterparts in Spain, Germany, Italy was always strong argument in favour of Premierleague, just see Wumminator's post from few years ago.
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Not to long ago English top teams were really weak (Leicester says hello) and people who were in denial or wumminating created this narrative that PL top teams weren't weak, but it was actually a case of bottom teams being super awesome. While the continental Superteams just looked good thanks to weak opponents.

Now that Guardiola and Klopp have brought City and Liverpool to a respectable level and Spurs have continued to improve, it's no surprise that their opponents suddenly look worse.

A lot of PL clubs are really inefficient with their money. Everton and West Ham in particular seem to love burning money.
 
Wumminator said:
The idea that the clubs lower down the division are worse than ever is laughable.
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It's a tough one. City reached 100 points last season. Liverpool may just get to 95 this season. The rest of the league clearly isn't doing as well aa it should in this regard. Maybe the other top teams have dropped in terms of their ability to beat the leading sides.

I disagree with you in general about this topic. La Liga has been the best league in terms of quality for ages now. This trend now seems to be changing with the big teams in Spain slowing down and the EPL having some of the best coaches right now. But let's see if it manefests properly the way it did for La Liga over the last decade.

The problem with your argument has always been that it purely based on spending, names and your familiarity, while ignoring the actual football played by the respective football teams. Everton is a great example provided above. Plenty of spending. Mediocre team.
 
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Wumminator said:
The idea that the clubs lower down the division are worse than ever is laughable.
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They aren't. They're also not better than ever either, and certainly not better than their italian/spanish counterparts for the most part. Most PL sides are suffering from too much money issues. It happened in Italian football around the turn of the millennium too. There just aren't that many true top end players, and those don't stay long away from top sides. Having so much money means PL sides are more likely to overpay for good players rather scouting for similarly good but significantly cheaper, less established and thus riskier ones. But ultimately, they aren't in the market for the Higuains, Dembeles, Arthurs of the world. They have to settle for Sigurdsson, Arnautovic, etc...those guys aren't any better than, say, Ilicic or Banega or Belotti
 
Mb194dc said:
Compare top v bottom goal difference v 10 years ago, gap will be hugely wider if trends continue.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_Premier_League

Then let us consider Huddersfield stayed up last season, and Burnley finished 7th scoring less than a goal a game, and subsequently got thrashed by Olympiacos.
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The talent in that Burnley squad simply couldn’t justify putting enough into the Europa league. Certainly not as much as Olympiakos.
 
Wumminator said:
The talent in that Burnley squad simply couldn’t justify putting enough into the Europa league. Certainly not as much as Olympiakos.
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Maybe the simple answer is they are worse than Olympiakos.
 
SCP said:
Is it?
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I was actually agreeing with you. Well...trying to, I guess. :lol:

It is Burnley ffs. They didn’t go out because they were focusing on the league. They went out because they are absolutely worse than Olympiakos.
 
Acrobat7 said:
I was actually agreeing with you. Well...trying to, I guess. :lol:

It is Burnley ffs. They didn’t go out because they were focusing on the league. They went out because they are absolutely worse than Olympiakos.
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Ok we share the same feeling. Well, at least us. :lol:
 
4 English teams in the final 8 is a real possibility now.

PL might overtake La Liga in the next 2-3 years, if it has not already.
 
Treble said:
4 English teams in the final 8 is a real possibility now.

PL might overtake La Liga in the next 2-3 years, if it has not already.
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It might well be this year, with Madrid declining.

To Wum the @Wumminator , does the fact that now EPL teams are doing better in UCL means that EPL is worse than in the last few years. I mean, it worked that way with La Liga, right?
 
English team should be reaching final this year with what's left now. Most likely still for me Man. City.

Could well be all English tie in next round, Man. United/Spurs anyone?:D
 
Revan said:
It might well be this year, with Madrid declining.

To Wum the @Wumminator , does the fact that now EPL teams are doing better in UCL means that EPL is worse than in the last few years. I mean, it worked that way with La Liga, right?
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To be honest, there may be an element of truth. While the league needs to be strong to instill an element of competitiveness, too much competition can kill you and having a lower level competition domestically may be helpful to prepare some matches... arg, what do I mind, I am just happy United goes all the way through.
 
Gasolin said:
To be honest, there may be an element of truth. While the league needs to be strong to instill an element of competitiveness, too much competition can kill you and having a lower level competition domestically may be helpful to prepare some matches... arg, what do I mind, I am just happy United goes all the way through.
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I don't believe it for a single minute. In fact, I think that all our deep runs in UCL have happened while we were also fighting for EPL title.
 
Revan said:
It might well be this year, with Madrid declining.

To Wum the @Wumminator , does the fact that now EPL teams are doing better in UCL means that EPL is worse than in the last few years. I mean, it worked that way with La Liga, right?
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When did I say that?

CL is just not a great way of measuring the best team in the world. Neither is Europa League. Elements of luck in both.

It’s just clear the prem is better. Quality of players dictates that.
 
The top sides in the premier league look stronger now. A lot of other big teams in europe have declined a bit too. Not sure about the overall quality of the league though.
 
Paul_Scholes18 said:
The top sides in the premier league look stronger now. A lot of other big teams in europe have declined a bit too. Not sure about the overall quality of the league though.
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The rest are terrible. 7th placed team is 30pts 1st. Barcelona have a 30pt gap from the 15th placed side. Liverpool have lost once yet lost 3 times in the group's of CL and will probably have lost 4/8 after Bayern game....
 
Wumminator said:
When did I say that?

CL is just not a great way of measuring the best team in the world. Neither is Europa League. Elements of luck in both.

It’s just clear the prem is better. Quality of players dictates that.
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Serious? Liverpool have lost nearly half their CL games and thus far lost 1 out of 30 EPL matches. The league is a joke mate. OGS has lost zero games in 14.....
 
KingMinger22 said:
I strongly disagree that La Liga has more depth than the PL.

In fact, quite the opposite.

La Liga's lowly teams are running on budgets that are less than Gareth Bale's wages. It's simply impossible for them and the coined up PL teams will continue to pillage talent from other leagues.

City are favourites for the CL at the bookies, as they have been all season. Liverpool are fourth. I think both look very strong contenders.

I think 3 out of 4 the PL teams will go through the next round, with United the likeliest to go out.
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Current two bottom teams are on 14 and 17 points. With fixtures Huddersfield and Fulham have left I doubt Huddersfield will get to 20 and Fulham may only just get past that.

Already with less games played Huesca are on 22 points and rising.

I agree this season there really isn't much between top 4 in Spain and England (infact I'd say actually top 6 is of higher standard in premier league generally) but bottom half in La Liga is much more competitive against the top teams and that will be reflected in the overall points totals end of season.
 
La liga this season has a lot of mid-table teams that are really good and have a clear way to play influenced by their managers, most of them have been years coaching them: Betis under Setien, Getafe under Bordalas, Eibar under Mendilibar or Alaves under Abelardo are great examples of very well coached teams. Valencia & Leganes started poor the season but are improving lately.

The top6 in the Premier league have no chance against Atletico or Barça. Maybe City or Liverpool can beat them if they are lucky, but I would not bet on that. The other 4 teams just can't (well if they are lucky 100% like United against PSG they can, but in a normal game they just don't).

Also you just don't measure the league level based on 1 season. La liga has been better since Ronaldo's United, Benitez's Liverpool and Drogba & co Chelsea dissapeared. Almost 10 years since that.
 
Br1_ovi said:
La liga this season has a lot of mid-table teams that are really good and have a clear way to play influenced by their managers, most of them have been years coaching them: Betis under Setien, Getafe under Bordalas, Eibar under Mendilibar or Alaves under Abelardo are great examples of very well coached teams. Valencia & Leganes started poor the season but are improving lately.

The top6 in the Premier league have no chance against Atletico or Barça. Maybe City or Liverpool can beat them if they are lucky, but I would not bet on that. The other 4 teams just can't (well if they are lucky 100% like United against PSG they can, but in a normal game they just don't).

Also you just don't measure the league level based on 1 season. La liga has been better since Ronaldo's United, Benitez's Liverpool and Drogba & co Chelsea dissapear.
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I'd give City a good chance versus you over two legs.
 
What has City done in CL? Just asking. They were eliminated by every decent team they faced.
 
Br1_ovi said:
What has City done in CL? Just asking. They were eliminated by every decent team they faced.
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& you've not won it since Neymar left & Suarez was in ludicrous form. You bottled it versus Roma last year, while City at least went out to a good side (:D). More experienced manager, better squad, and a striker that doesn't stink up the place 90% of the time. No Messi, but still, over 2 legs? I don't think this statement...

The top6 in the Premier league have no chance against Atletico or Barça. Maybe City or Liverpool can beat them if they are lucky, but I would not bet on that. The other 4 teams just can't (well if they are lucky 100% like United against PSG they can, but in a normal game they just don't).
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... is remotely true.
 
cyberman said:
So has this Barca side.
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Half the current team (T.Stegen, Pique, Alba, Busquets, Rakitic, Messi, Suarez) won it 4 seasons ago. That's not too much but better than City :) I hope Atletico and Barça met english teams and avoid each other nect round.
 
Br1_ovi said:
Half the current team won it 4 seasons ago. That's not too much but better than City :) I hope Atletico and Barça met english teams and avoid each other nect round.
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4 years is a long time though. City have had a better record since then with their one semi final appearance.
I'll even say it now, Lyon are going to eliminate you in my opinion.
 
We'll see. At the end almost every year in the last decade we have a spanish champions in the CL & EL.

I know most of you are english but come on, last 5 years:
2014 Madrid CL & Sevilla EL
2015 Barça CL & Sevilla EL
2016 Madrid CL & Sevilla EL
2017 Madrid CL & United EL
2018 Madrid CL & Atletico EL

If it's not clear which league has the best top teams ok. We can argue about the mid-rable teams or relegation level teams, but not the top teams.
 
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