Yep. City had to win no matter what, meanwhile Madrid could have sent in the U10s and lost 100-0 and it would have meant nothing. Of course it was harder for City
The relative strength of the Premier League
- Thread starter Wumminator
- Start date
Before this season, there was an English side in the Europa League final every other year for the past eight seasons. Two English winners, three runners up, and four clubs represented. Literally the same number of finalists as Spain in that time period. Three of the previous five CL winners were English, as well as four of the previous six runners up. Again, four clubs represented. There have been two Conference League winners. One of them is English.
This season has been one of the worst English showings in Europe for a long time, but let's not pretend that the Premier League sides haven't regularly been among the best in European competition in recent years.
And in that 8 seasons how many English sides have won the Europa League? Think it’s us in 2017 and Chelsea when they beat Arsenal. Its acted like the Premier League is so far ahead of every other league surely we would dominate Europe? That simply isn’t the case.
The English teams are simply too exhausted as the incredibly competitive league robs them of all their strength.
Anyone using what Pep and Klopp say about busy schedule as an argument should be banned from the thread. Managers who hardly ever rotate their squads and play full strength teams even in pointless games shouldn't be taken seriously when it comes to this topic:
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1806572/Live/England-FA-Cup-2023-2024-Manchester-City-Newcastle
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1802656/Live/England-FA-Cup-2023-2024-Luton-Manchester-City
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1785210/Live/England-League-Cup-2023-2024-Liverpool-West-Ham
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1790746/Live/England-League-Cup-2023-2024-Fulham-Liverpool
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1806572/Live/England-FA-Cup-2023-2024-Manchester-City-Newcastle
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1802656/Live/England-FA-Cup-2023-2024-Luton-Manchester-City
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1785210/Live/England-League-Cup-2023-2024-Liverpool-West-Ham
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1790746/Live/England-League-Cup-2023-2024-Fulham-Liverpool
You're shifting the goalposts now though. You said it was rare we had finalists in the Europa League, but we've had the joint highest number in recent seasons.
What's your criteria for "dominating" Europe? English sides have won three of the last five Champions Leagues, and two of those finals were contested solely by English clubs, and six of the last 10 finalists have been English. That's pretty dominant.
If the point you're making is that people are guilty of overstating the overall quality of the Premier League, then I agree, but you're talking out of your arse when you say English sides hadn't been (generally) the most impressive in Europe across the past 5-8 years to make that point.
Farmers league at this point.
Incredible to think you have grade A manager in Iraola and transfer like Porto top prospect Evanilson at Bournemouth. The quality at mid table is mind blowing
Yea but at the top the PL is slumping. Even City don't look amazing this season.
Whereas the other top teams are doing well?
Barcelona are doing pretty well. Real Madrid have fecked themselves, but could fix it in a bit of time. None of the PL teams look up to much for a few years.
I mean, these days you can say the same thing for Torino
Serie A middle class has closed the gap massively over the last couple seasons
Didn‘t City, Arsenal, Spurs and Villa just lose to the farmers from Sporting, Inter, Gala and Brugge? Weird timing for a bump.
It's a good league this year. Forest deserve to be up there and have signed very well and have a manager experienced in finshing top 8 in premier league.
Brighton had a dip last season but we know what they're about and loads of good attacking options in final third.
Bournemouth up and down but just taken 7 points off Arsenal, Villa and Man. City. Who'd have thought a decade ago that Brentford v Bournemouth would be a top 10 premier league fixture?! These are very small clubs when you compare them to half of the championship and even some teams in league one.
I'd like to think a few of them won't just get to 40 points and then go on holiday and they'd be some genuine ambition to push on and try to make Europe as there's an opportunity this season.
Brighton had a dip last season but we know what they're about and loads of good attacking options in final third.
Bournemouth up and down but just taken 7 points off Arsenal, Villa and Man. City. Who'd have thought a decade ago that Brentford v Bournemouth would be a top 10 premier league fixture?! These are very small clubs when you compare them to half of the championship and even some teams in league one.
I'd like to think a few of them won't just get to 40 points and then go on holiday and they'd be some genuine ambition to push on and try to make Europe as there's an opportunity this season.
Why is it so hard for most Bundesliga fans to accept that the Premier League is the strongest league by far? Sure, you can always point to single results, but looking at the UEFA 5-year rankings paints a clear picture... When was the last time that the Premier League was not the strongest League by far over a 5 year period?
Depends what you mean, we simply don't have the European record the Spanish do.
Yes we probably have the best, team for team, but we are just not as successful.
Calm down mate. I was just making fun of a weirdly timed bump.
Since there is a very high correlation between wealth and success in football it would be strange if the PL wouldn‘t be a strong league. But Spain is still the most successful league in European competitions.
From 2010 to 2017
Loving this season's prem tbh, 1 point difference between 3rd-9th after nearly a third of the season. Between 2nd-10th it's 7 points. Bournemouth aren't even in the top half despite taking 7 points off Arsenal-City-Villa.
Loads more points will be dropped by all the top teams in December and early January aswell.
Surely that's better than just three teams being miles clear of the rest and ending on 85-90 points?!
Too early to say how they're all going to do in Europe if that's how people judge the leagues.
Loads more points will be dropped by all the top teams in December and early January aswell.
Surely that's better than just three teams being miles clear of the rest and ending on 85-90 points?!
Too early to say how they're all going to do in Europe if that's how people judge the leagues.
I dont think its that strong but it's very competitive. Top level is nothing to write home about (probably true of all europe at the moment). But you have loads of teams in that dark horse territory were they'll give anyone a tough match on their day.
I think it's competitive but the matches seem a little shite this season. Just seems a slower pace with a lot of focus on ball retention.
Too much cat and mouse in the six yard box and around it, baiting the press and the new goal kick rule doesn’t help that you can play such short passes. Feels like fewer contests and 50-50s than years ago. Jonathan Wilson described it well where there are matches that seem to have all the ingredients of a thriller, but somehow don’t feel that thrilling. Brentford and a few non-elite teams aside of course.
Was like that in the Euros so I'm afraid it's just the cult Guardiola has over most emerging managers. Austria-Turkey was like a throwback to early 2000s match so that was my favourite game of the tournament.
Best games this season have involved Brighton so they're the team to watch for neutrals again.
You have a lot of Iberian managers in the league nowadays and, of course, nobody likes being a fool at such level, on the biggest stage… so, inevitably… more slow, ball keeping & less fast, direct transitions.
PL 23/24
PL 24/25
Think this is worth posting in here. It does feel like the league at that mid-level is getting more competitive every season and the gap between the PL and Championship is getting to a stage which should be of concern.
PL 24/25
Think this is worth posting in here. It does feel like the league at that mid-level is getting more competitive every season and the gap between the PL and Championship is getting to a stage which should be of concern.
I think the Premier league is the strongest it's ever been overall.
You have to give credit to historically smaller teams like Bournemouth, Brighton, Brentford Crystal Palace and Fulham for being incredibly well run and making good signings and finding a strategy that really works for them.
It was only two years ago that all three promoted teams (Fulham, Bournemouth and Forest) stayed up. If Leeds, Sheffield United and Burnley all come back up then I think all three will be able to compete a lot better than they did last time they were in the league and make the relegation battle really interesting. I think next season we may see a big club go down!
You have to give credit to historically smaller teams like Bournemouth, Brighton, Brentford Crystal Palace and Fulham for being incredibly well run and making good signings and finding a strategy that really works for them.
It was only two years ago that all three promoted teams (Fulham, Bournemouth and Forest) stayed up. If Leeds, Sheffield United and Burnley all come back up then I think all three will be able to compete a lot better than they did last time they were in the league and make the relegation battle really interesting. I think next season we may see a big club go down!
Not really, it's more that the top got much worse this year. Look at positions 2 to 5, that's where the difference is
This does seem to be the case though
I also feel Arsenal overperformed, they were not as good as their points imo.PL 23/24
PL 24/25
Think this is worth posting in here. It does feel like the league at that mid-level is getting more competitive every season and the gap between the PL and Championship is getting to a stage which should be of concern.
If ypu look at the teams Liverpool is the only team out of the first 7(!) that's getting a similar amount of points. All other teams dropped points and some have been replaced in the top of the league.
Has it though? Even a crap villa have done well in the CL and pool won all their games aside from having their under 18 squad lose to PSV.
Though I suppose even we have done well this CL, so it's not amazing evidence.
Two good teams and a lot of mediocrity. As long as there are six teams worse than Everton it's not a "relatively strong" league.PL 23/24
PL 24/25
Think this is worth posting in here. It does feel like the league at that mid-level is getting more competitive every season and the gap between the PL and Championship is getting to a stage which should be of concern.
The teams at the top have less points than last season, but those points didn't evaporate, they are distributed across mid-table teams. Not disputing the observation of the top getting worse itself, as it's obvious City declined massively. But the point tallies alone can't ever tell the story by themselves. Vikingur won the "Betri deildin" in Faror by 16 points last year. That doesn't make them an elite team, though. Likewise in Andorra there's only 7 points between 1st and 5th, that doesn't mean the league has stronger mid-table teams than EPL or Ligue 1, though. Did the top teams get worse or the mid-table teams better at taking points off of top teams? The answer can only be given by watching games, not by looking at point tallies.
Odd.
Every single public advanced metric around says they were indeed as good as their points, pretty much
Villa have Emery in charge. His teams never do great in both league and Europe at the same time. If they didn't so good in CL they'd have been better in the league. Also your last point. Villa got quite a bit of luck with their CL draw
Arsenal and City were 2nd and 3rd, and were WAY better than Arsenal and Forest are this season. I don't think I need to explain this. Likewise, Villa certainly looked a much more impressive outfit than this sad sack City team. The middle class likely did get better too, but mostly, the "missing points" are at the top of the table
As you have kinda said though, so many dangerous teams that can trip you up, it must be one of the most exhausting seasons.