The relative strength of the Premier League

Wumminator said:
Again I just ask people in this forum to read the thread before making judgements. Really interesting looking back at older pages.
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I read your op. You pretty much stated, in 2016 that the PL was overall the best league in Europe and plenty of people proved you wrong. Almost embarrassingly so but to be fair it just looked like you were on a big WUM and reeled them all in.
 
This has been brewing for a while.

I expect the PL to become increasingly dominant in the coming years.

It's simple economics.

Plus the fact that the England youth setup is widely consider to be the strongest in the world.
 
Said back then that La Liga is the strongest cause of the success of Spanish clubs in Europe. The same stands now for EPL. Actually, EPL got the highest UEFA points last season and the same is it gonna happen in this one, so it is clearly a trend. Inevitable that it was going to happen, just that it took more time than it should have.
 
KingMinger22 said:
This has been brewing for a while.

I expect the PL to become increasingly dominant in the coming years.

It's simple economics.

Plus the fact that the England youth setup is widely consider to be the strongest in the world.
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Nah it's cycles. English teams have been rebuilding since the start of the 10s, coupled with the rise of City and Spurs.

Real and Bayern have come to the end of their cycles, they need to rebuild. Barca have done well by buying well continously throughout their success.

The top 6 in the PL are the strongest top 6 in the world imo, but despite that Barca could beat any of the English teams on their day.
 
Revan said:
Said back then that La Liga is the strongest cause of the success of Spanish clubs in Europe. The same stands now for EPL. Actually, EPL got the highest UEFA points last season and the same is it gonna happen in this one, so it is clearly a trend. Inevitable that it was going to happen, just that it took more time than it should have.
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An English side has not won the trophy since 2012 and if that wasn't jammy...

Is the PL still stronger if Barcelona win out?
 
Arguably 3 of the top 5 managers in the world are at the helm of City/Liverpool/Spurs, it shouldn't be a surprise that they have managed to get through but they've done very well to do so.

EDIT: Pep would be the best in the world for me. Klopp and Poch are more debatable but i'd also have Klopp in my top 5.
 
[QUOTE="diarm, post: 23833787, member: 90032"]I think the general standard of European football is lower at the moment than it has been in some time. The English clubs have improved on where they were a few years ago but they've been helped by the likes of Madrid, Barca and Bayern falling back towards the pack.[/QUOTE]

Agree with this and I'd say apart from Liverpool even the English teams aren't as powerful as they were ten years back compared with some of those teams from 06-10. The standard of players seems to have dropped a bit. It's good for entertainment though.

I wonder if there is a specific point where you can trace the decline of these teams like United fans do with the summer of 09 (and yes i'm aware of how good Barca still are but this side seems a bit dull compared to their teams from 5-10 years ago).
 
adexkola said:
An English side has not won the trophy since 2012 and if that wasn't jammy...

Is the PL still stronger if Barcelona win out?
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United won one a couple of years back.

No, if Barca wins it only means that they are the best team in Europe. The other Spanish clubs in UCL crashed as fast as EPL's have been doing last few years.
 
Revan said:
Said back then that La Liga is the strongest cause of the success of Spanish clubs in Europe. The same stands now for EPL. Actually, EPL got the highest UEFA points last season and the same is it gonna happen in this one, so it is clearly a trend. Inevitable that it was going to happen, just that it took more time than it should have.
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Yes.

marktan said:
Nah it's cycles. English teams have been rebuilding since the start of the 10s, coupled with the rise of City and Spurs.

Real and Bayern have come to the end of their cycles, they need to rebuild. Barca have done well by buying well continously throughout their success.

The top 6 in the PL are the strongest top 6 in the world imo, but despite that Barca could beat any of the English teams on their day.
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Cycles is true.

However, in professional sports money is everything.

Eventually money will win in the long run.

It's as simple as that.

adexkola said:
An English side has not won the trophy since 2012 and if that wasn't jammy...

Is the PL still stronger if Barcelona win out?
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Which individual team takes the trophy does not dictate which league is the best.

It's already clear the PL is pulling ahead with half of the quarter finalists.

As stated before, the PL scored the most points in Europe last season also.

Bottom line is...

The PL will likely be the dominant force in Europe for the coming years with only Barca, Real and PSG (if the owners continue to heavily invest) as competition.

Bayern potentially could compete depending on the fruits of Germany's youth setup. If that isn't producing exceptionally well, we can probably write them off.

Right now, the England youth setup looks to be producing the best in Europe along with France.

That plus massive economic advantage points to a fresh PL hegemony.
 
Both Bayern and Dortmund massive disappointments. Is the German league really deteriorated that much in the last couple of years?
Less said about Schalke the better as well. Embarrassing.
 
Yup it’s clear the top teams in England are inverting the cycle. Anyway football is always about cycles, nothing new here.
 
Treble said:
I meant the PL vs the Bundesliga.
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Thought you were talking about GD in this round. Which is as impressive as 4 clubs reaching quarters. For comparison, Spain has 10:8, Italy has 5-5, while Germany has 3:17.
 
the English clubs haven't done anything yet. more the other big clubs have declined.
 
Revan said:
Thought you were talking about GD in this round. Which is as impressive as 4 clubs reaching quarters. For comparison, Spain has 10:8, Italy has 5-5, while Germany has 3:17.
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Yup, it's very impressive.
 
abdo99 said:
the English clubs haven't done anything yet. more the other big clubs have declined.
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All the big six bar probably Chelsea are better than they have been in the last 5 years or so. Last time 4 clubs qualified from the same leagues in quarters was in 2009.
 
marktan said:
The top 6 in the PL are the strongest top 6 in the world imo, but despite that Barca could beat any of the English teams on their day.
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Barcelona go into any game of football as the favourites no matter who the opposition is because of the anomaly that is Messi. It will remain that way until he eventually retires. When he does they’ll go back to being mortal. Much like Madrid after losing Ronaldo, they’ll still be a very good team, but far more beatable than they are now.
 
It works in cycles usually. England has a big advantage over all over leagues because there's far more money evenly distributed and more rich owners in the league too. It's generally been the most exciting league and most fun overall even when it was always a Spain Champions League/Europa League double. Obviously Ronaldo and Messi have had a massive say in 8 of the last 10-12 campaigns and winners and there was an era of underachievement by the English teams.

City and Pep aren't going anywhere and will continue to spend, Liverpool have been improving, getting more consistent and can likely keep star players easier now, We look like turning a corner, can spend and have some promising players, Spurs have showed very good staying power and Poch looks to be staying, Chelsea you know can always turn a corner quickly and Arsenal will aspire to just finish above Spurs so there's a good chance for the next 2-3 seasons the Premier League will more often than not have 2-3 teams going quarter-finals maybe beyond. As the influence of Ronaldo and Messi decreases with Bayern seemingly a few years away from their next top side I can see major success for English sides.

I just hope that top sides give chances to the top English players. Spurs are good for that and we've put a lot of faith in Rashford, hopefully we can add Sancho too and our youth can develop into top players too because England are also doing well at youth levels, had a great World Cup and are producing very good players to the point they look to be a very strong cup team moving forward.
 
Cloud7 said:
Barcelona go into any game of football as the favourites no matter who the opposition is because of the anomaly that is Messi. It will remain that way until he eventually retires. When he does they’ll go back to being mortal. Much like Madrid after losing Ronaldo, they’ll still be a very good team, but far more beatable than they are now.
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They have been beatable in the champions league in recent years. Juventus, Atletico, Roma have knocked them out.
I was not too impressed by them today either. They let Lyon into the game. I think better teams will hurt them.

Messi is brilliant against weaker sides and smash them. Although have not been a beast in the big games in the same way Ronaldo is. They need him to be though and maybe this is a season for him to step up again.
 
KingMinger22 said:
This has been brewing for a while.

I expect the PL to become increasingly dominant in the coming years.

It's simple economics.

Plus the fact that the England youth setup is widely consider to be the strongest in the world.
Click to expand...

Revan said:
Said back then that La Liga is the strongest cause of the success of Spanish clubs in Europe. The same stands now for EPL. Actually, EPL got the highest UEFA points last season and the same is it gonna happen in this one, so it is clearly a trend. Inevitable that it was going to happen, just that it took more time than it should have.
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KingMinger22 said:
Yes.



Cycles is true.

However, in professional sports money is everything.

Eventually money will win in the long run.

It's as simple as that.



Which individual team takes the trophy does not dictate which league is the best.

It's already clear the PL is pulling ahead with half of the quarter finalists.

As stated before, the PL scored the most points in Europe last season also.

Bottom line is...

The PL will likely be the dominant force in Europe for the coming years with only Barca, Real and PSG (if the owners continue to heavily invest) as competition.

Bayern potentially could compete depending on the fruits of Germany's youth setup. If that isn't producing exceptionally well, we can probably write them off.

Right now, the England youth setup looks to be producing the best in Europe along with France.

That plus massive economic advantage points to a fresh PL hegemony.
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Hmm... English teams in Champions League quarter-finals in the last 8 seasons
18-19 4
17-18 2
16-17 1
15-16 1
14-15 0
13-14 2
12-13 0
11-12 1

The quality of the prem has been awful the last couple of years but this year the prem has shown that it has improved a lot.
 
Stacks said:
Hmm... English teams in Champions League quarter-finals in the last 8 seasons
18-19 4
17-18 2
16-17 1
15-16 1
14-15 0
13-14 2
12-13 0
11-12 1

The quality of the prem has been awful the last couple of years but this year the prem has shown that it has improved a lot.
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The improvement is sadly Liverpool and City. They are fighting for the league and fighting for the title in europe too. Pep and Klopp two world class managers that have spent money well and improved the team. We could be up there now under Ole too, but not sure we are a giant yet. Hope we can still do big thing and step up for the big games that will come and also get in more quality in the summer.
 
The Purley King said:
Both Bayern and Dortmund massive disappointments. Is the German league really deteriorated that much in the last couple of years?
Less said about Schalke the better as well. Embarrassing.
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Bayern's decline has more to do with Hoeneß, IMO. His squad management overall has been awful and he's really oldfashioned in his views. He's a little bit like Mourinho in a way. Wants to show the whole world that he can have success his, the old school, way. Great skepticism of the new generation of conceptual managers because they make things too complicated, doesn't rate tactical managers too much and so forth. He also likes to surround himself with yes sayers which is why he chose Kovac (one of "the Bayern family") and appointed an absolute fraud as a director of sports in Hasan Salihamidzic (also one of his peers). You need to see this guy live when he's giving interviews or press conferences. A puppet on a string without any insightful, innovative or even slightly competent views on football.

The weak league and especially the lack of a real competitor was a problem for Bayern ever since their CL win. They lacked a sparring partner and you've seen that when they faced top teams. Exemplarily last year when they were the far better team against Madrid but went out regardless because of silly mistakes, like a group of young and talented but inexperienced players. But now it is different, they aren't playing well, they are simply not that good anymore.

The league in general is actually on the right track, IMO. Dortmund has really improved again under Favre and I believe once they have a little more experience, they will be an exceptional team. Unfortunately for them they had their period of bad form when the going got tough in the CL so they sold themselves under value. We (Leverkusen) also look really good under Bosz and I have the feeling something is emerging here. Leipzig is establishing themselves at the top, too. Also, there are many very good managers around (especially Nagelsmann) and players that eventually will end up at top clubs.

IMO it will all depend on Bayern's behaviour. If they open themselves for new developments again and are willing to pay for foreign talent instead of trying to steal players from league competitors, the Bundesliga will get back to where it was 3-5 years ago. If not, they will suffocate the positive development many clubs are going through right now, especially Dortmund and Leverkusen. Then we are probably heading for a similarly depressive period as the early to mid 00s where no German team was even remotely close to the European giants at all.
 
This thread was created early 2016. Klopp was just coming to terms with the league and Guardiola was just getting started. The standard of football from the top 4 is as strong as any period I can remember if you ask me.

Football always works in cycles for me. Italian football has dominated, spanish football has, English football has, German football has for a brief period.
 
Revan said:
All the big six bar probably Chelsea are better than they have been in the last 5 years or so. Last time 4 clubs qualified from the same leagues in quarters was in 2009.
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Don’t know about that. But the top two are stronger than any other in history considering they both will be over 90 points. The rest aren’t really anything special.
 
I think it's the most competitive league in the world without a doubt, if we merged all the top leagues into one probably 13-15 teams would be in the top 50.

IMO the big difference between the leagues is that the top teams in every league are great but the medium and lower teams are awfull in some leagues while in the premier all teams are competitive except 1 or 2.

If you see a match between middle table teams from La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga or Ligue 1 you will be amazed on how bad they are. While in the premier you can watch a Crystal Palace against Leicester for example and you can see some good players.

It obviously has to do with money, the huge tv contracts have make the premier league teams able to get better players while the lower teams from the other top leagues struggle to not only get but to retain quality in their teams.
 
Stacks said:
Hmm... English teams in Champions League quarter-finals in the last 8 seasons
18-19 4
17-18 2
16-17 1
15-16 1
14-15 0
13-14 2
12-13 0
11-12 1

The quality of the prem has been awful the last couple of years but this year the prem has shown that it has improved a lot.
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I am talking about the present and the coming years.

What about my post mentioned 2-8 years ago?

A turning point means a change from the previous.
 
Judas said:
Best league in the world, and soon to be the best national team in the world. Yeah we are the best. Footballs coming home.
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Spot on.

It's simple isn't it? When you're the moneyball league, you must be the strongest/best in the world.

Other leagues must follow the FA model.

But I doubt that would ever happen, because of the romanticism of English football heritage, I don't think other leagues can attract global attraction.

I believe that the success of english football was based on it's history and language, then the money came in because everyone can relate to it.
 
Zehner said:
IMO it will all depend on Bayern's behaviour. If they open themselves for new developments again and are willing to pay for foreign talent instead of trying to steal players from league competitors, the Bundesliga will get back to where it was 3-5 years ago. If not, they will suffocate the positive development many clubs are going through right now, especially Dortmund and Leverkusen. Then we are probably heading for a similarly depressive period as the early to mid 00s where no German team was even remotely close to the European giants at all.
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More players have been poached from the Bundesliga by English clubs in recent years
 
SilentWitness said:
Arguably 3 of the top 5 managers in the world are at the helm of City/Liverpool/Spurs, it shouldn't be a surprise that they have managed to get through but they've done very well to do so.

EDIT: Pep would be the best in the world for me. Klopp and Poch are more debatable but i'd also have Klopp in my top 5.
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Best? One consistently fails in Finals and bring home no silverware; and the other zero silverware to his CV. It's just branding till they win something.

Pleasing to the eye is one thing but they need to deliver success too. As dour Jose is, his Porto and Inter teams did beat the big boys when he won the CLs.
 
abdo99 said:
the English clubs haven't done anything yet. more the other big clubs have declined.
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Barca, Bayern and Real have definitely declined. At the same time, City and Liverpool have drastically improved.

It will be harder than ever for Real and Bayern to rebuild. Nether Germany or Spain are producing the talent they were a decade ago.

Cloud7 said:
Barcelona go into any game of football as the favourites no matter who the opposition is because of the anomaly that is Messi. It will remain that way until he eventually retires. When he does they’ll go back to being mortal. Much like Madrid after losing Ronaldo, they’ll still be a very good team, but far more beatable than they are now.
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City have been the bookies favourites for the CL since it kicked off and still are. So how would Barca be the favourites against them?

meamth said:
Spot on.

It's simple isn't it? When you're the moneyball league, you must be the strongest/best in the world.

Other leagues must follow the FA model.

But I doubt that would ever happen, because of the romanticism of English football heritage, I don't think other leagues can attract global attraction.

I believe that the success of english football was based on it's history and language, then the money came in because everyone can relate to it.
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The fans in England are more passionate than anywhere. Or at the very least they attend games more regularly and spend more to do so.

That's why the PL is the best league.

On a Saturday, 1.5m people in England go to a football match.

The next highest in the world is Germany at around 500k.
 
adexkola said:
More players have been poached from the Bundesliga by English clubs in recent years
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Do you think losing Pogba to Madrid or City is same? I would rather lose players to foreign clubs than the team above us.
 
I don't know... I think quality decreases with time where money is due to the fact that there are more mercenaries than real good players... it's all about speculation and agents and shit... personally i hate it!
 
Paul_Scholes18 said:
They have been beatable in the champions league in recent years. Juventus, Atletico, Roma have knocked them out.
I was not too impressed by them today either. They let Lyon into the game. I think better teams will hurt them.

Messi is brilliant against weaker sides and smash them. Although have not been a beast in the big games in the same way Ronaldo is. They need him to be though and maybe this is a season for him to step up again.
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I always have this feeling. Of course Messi has scored in big games including many Classicos. But if I think of a typical Messi performance then its a hattrick at home to Getafe or someone. Wheres Ronaldo I relate more to scoring the winner in a 2-1 win in a CL semi-final or something. Which is probably why Barca have won La Liga more than Real recently and Real have won the UCL so much.
 
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