The relative strength of the Premier League

[Jack - City Fan]

The "array" of PL winners is 6 different teams(Manchester United(13), Chelsea(5), Leicester(1), Blackburn(1), Man City(2) and Arsenal(3)). During the same period of time the Bundesliga has 6 winners(Werder(2), Stuttgart(1), Wolfsburg(1), Dortmund(5), Bayern Munich(15), Kaiserslautern(1)), La Liga has 5 winners(Real Madrid(8), Barcelona(12), Deportivo(1), Valencia(2) and Atletico(2)). The Serie A has 5 different winners(Juventus(11), Milan(6), Internazionale(5), Roma(1) and Lazio(1)).

All leagues have one team that won more than 6 titles during a decade.

Just because 6 teams have won each league doesn't necessarily mean they have the same level of competetion though surely. Isn’t the point of the article to do with money disparities? In which case it'd be accurate, looking at the PL only Arsenal and United ever had a real shot without outside investment, even Leicester won it after a big influx of money into the smaller teams slightly evened the playing field. But in other leagues there are still the huge disparities.

TLDR: Even though other leagues have teams that have also won it a lot of times, the trend in the premier league seemingly is that the wins are being spread out more than in say the 90s, which isnt the case in the spanish league or german league.

 

[giorno]

The underlying point he makes in that article is correct, but i feel like he himself falls into the false equivalency of competitiveness=strength and financial competitiveness=actual competitiveness

He mentions how the PL was won by 5 different teams -City, Chelsea, Leicester, Chelsea, City- willfully ignoring that it's 3 different clubs, the same number as in Spain over the same period.

He mentions that for a middle-tier club it should be easier to win the title than in England, since they only need to beat one team, yet the middle tier club that did manage such feat is Leicester, in the PL

He's basically calling the PL as the most competitive league in the world because of it's financial advantage, but at the same time he's also pointing out how said financial advantage hasn't translated into a stronger league yet, at all, while seemingly oblivious to it

A team like Bayern wouldn't be able to hoard all the best domestic players if they were in the PL though, their model simply wouldn't work.

Your point is too simplistic I feel as the conditions in the league don't allow fr the kind of team building that Real, Barca and Bayern have been able to do in their domestic leagues.

It's more complicated, as you say, but when you look at the way Bayern, Barcelona and Madrid built their superteams, one did it through academy and a few shrewd signings from outside the league, one did it through academy and a few massive money signings, one did it by blowing everyone else out of the water in the market for years. 5 years ago, nobody in England bar City would compete with Real Madrid in transfer fees, and even City wouldn't compete in wages offered. Plus, it was City. No star player would pick city over Madrid. The only reason City were able to get Silva, Aguero, etc, is because United, Madrid, Barcelona allowed them a free run at them

My theory has been that in the end the huge financial gap will lead to a corresponding gap in quality - but it hasn't happened yet.

There are only so many truly above average players in the world. What you say simply can't happen until the middle tier PL clubs will be able to outspend the top Italian, German, Spanish and French side by a considerable margin

Right now, the likes of Leicester, West Ham and co. aren't competing for players with Roma, Leverkusen, Valencia, etc. Though they might be able to compete financially, but in a football perspective they fall short

So they end up competing for the players these clubs deem not good enough - and usually these players simply aren't good enough. So the middle and low class of the PL are signing average/mediocre players in truth, they're just paying them as if they were much better than they are

I was making the same point about wages in another thread. Alderweirald is apparently set to turn down our offer of 110-120k/ week (ie without bonuses etc), partly as he feels he deserves more. I'm sure part of it may be trophies as well. Fair enough if he does but the reality is that this would make him one of the highest paid defenders in the world and if we're excluding the PL, behind truly elite defenders who have won it all like Pique and Ramos. If we're including the PL however....then there would still be quite a few arguably worse defenders earning more.

This is the problem that clubs in the league have.

That's the problem the clubs outside the top have. Spurs problem is they don't have the money to compete financially, right now. Inter made Toby a better offer than that apparently. It's highly likely he'll get better offers yet

Not sure about that. You look at Valencia and Sevilla, currently 4th and 5th, and you don't think that they have as good players as Liverpool and Chelsea (4th and 5th in the PL). It's not even close. Fecking Girona are 6th there. They are not comparable to Arsenal. Wouldn't say that Atleti have better players than Spurs either. And City would fancy their chances vs Barca/Madrid, if they reached the CL semis. Admittedly, they do not have a Messi or a Ronaldo but their first XI are pretty good too.

Valencia is close i'd say. But the point is more about what happens from Burnley down, compared to what happens in Spain behind Girona

 

[FootballHQ]

Not sure about that. You look at Valencia and Sevilla, currently 4th and 5th, and you don't think that they have as good players as Liverpool and Chelsea (4th and 5th in the PL). It's not even close. Fecking Girona are 6th there. They are not comparable to Arsenal. Wouldn't say that Atleti have better players than Spurs either. And City would fancy their chances vs Barca/Madrid, if they reached the CL semis. Admittedly, they do not have a Messi or a Ronaldo but their first XI are pretty good too.

Girona is surely more comparable to Burnley?

Worth noting though hardly any of the Spanish/Italian clubs have Oligarchs/whole states behind them like Man. City and Chelsea do.

Villareal and Sevilla can't just go out and spend 200m every summer, most of them sell key players each summer (Eric Bailly, Carlos Bacca etc) and they regenerate their teams by scouting well and signing players from lower down La Liga like Pablo Fornals.

Look at all the strikers Atletico sold since Torres in 2007. Think it went Torres-Forlan-Aguero-Falcao-Mandzukic-Costa-Greizmann and now back to Costa with Greizy set to leave this summer.

Chelsea freeze out and sell Costa and then apparently can't challenge for the league anymore.

I think Spanish clubs particularly just scout and build their 11s up much better so they don't fall off a cliff in league position if they have to sell a good striker or defender in the summer window. I'd say that's superior to many premier league teams who just throw money at the problem.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Which ones?

West Ham & Southampton.

 

[Acheron]

Despite England having better resources their players are also inflated so it sort of evens out at the end, specially with the English players many of them have been sold for a lot more than what it took us to sign Kroos.

 

[VorZakone]

So does City's loss today affect anyone's opinion on the PL? Have other teams shown City far too much respect? Or is it a disaster offday for City and nothing more?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

So does City's loss today affect anyone's opinion on the PL? Have other teams shown City far too much respect? Or is it a disaster offday for City and nothing more?

Klopp has a winning record against Pep, 8-6 I think. This is with far less resources than him. His style is the antidote to Pep’s, the high press forces his defenders and midfielders into mistakes whilst they insist on passing it. Add that to Pep’s terrible record away in the CL and everyone should have been betting on Liverpool tonight anyway.

You need specific players to play like Liverpool. Compare Firmino and Lukaku, one is perfect for the system and the other terrible.

 

[giorno]

So does City's loss today affect anyone's opinion on the PL? Have other teams shown City far too much respect? Or is it a disaster offday for City and nothing more?

Liverpool played an almost perfect game and city shat themselves. Nothing more

 

[SCP]

So does City's loss today affect anyone's opinion on the PL? Have other teams shown City far too much respect? Or is it a disaster offday for City and nothing more?

I can't answer that because I didn't watched the game, but as already stated Klopp already caused problems for Guardiola in the Bundesliga and he keeps doing the same in England.

I have to say something regarding Mourinho and Liverpool, at least for now he looks the only manager who can block and frustrate Klopp or Liverpool if you like, even if he gets a lot of stick in the media and by the fans, maybe Spurs with Pochettino playing a different style at Anfield can compete with them.

Reality is if Mourinho went to Anfield playing like the media or the fans keep repeating he had to, he would get the same results as Guardiola since he is in England, and that is 3 matches in Anfield = 3 defeats.

Maybe he simply isn't only a coward and maybe he analyzed well what are the strengths Liverpool has at home, and if you give them space they just kill you.

By the way, I am not a big Mourinho fan, I am just presenting facts.

 

[RobinLFC]

Liverpool played an almost perfect game and city shat themselves. Nothing more

That's too simplistic - we didn't gave them a sniff in the first half because we were far superior, but we didn't even play well in the second half, City just proved to be awful even without us forcing them into mistakes.

 

[giorno]

That's too simplistic - we didn't gave them a sniff in the first half because we were far superior, but we didn't even play well in the second half, City just proved to be awful even without us forcing them into mistakes.

Liverpool scored two goals from nowhere in 20 minutes, city collpased and liverpool proceeded tomplay them off the park rest of the first half. Then in the second they defended the result with ease against a city still reeling and devoid of ideas

 

[charlenefan]

So does City's loss today affect anyone's opinion on the PL? Have other teams shown City far too much respect? Or is it a disaster offday for City and nothing more?

Teams have shown City far too much respect this season but then again not every team can play them like Liverpool have twice this season. This Liverpool team is pretty much the antidote to City's style of play (workhorses in midfield with quality up front) most other teams have 1 but not the other (us for example have the quality up front but lack the workhorses in midfield).

Flip side to the Liverpool praise is that against teams who will sit off Liverpool their workhorses in midfield lack the quality to create for the front 3

 

[Acrobat7]

Teams have shown City far too much respect this season but then again not every team can play them like Liverpool have twice this season. This Liverpool team is pretty much the antidote to City's style of play (workhorses in midfield with quality up front) most other teams have 1 but not the other (us for example have the quality up front but lack the workhorses in midfield).

Flip side to the Liverpool praise is that against teams who will sit off Liverpool their workhorses in midfield lack the quality to create for the front 3

It‘s strange. They played a great game and, as you and others mentioned it, City‘s style fits them quite nicely. Nonetheless I would expect Barca, Real and Bayern to beat Liverpool pretty easily.

 

[charlenefan]

It‘s strange. They played a great game and, as you and others mentioned it, City‘s style fits them quite nicely. Nonetheless I would expect Barca, Real and Bayern to beat Liverpool pretty easily.

As do I because the others have adaptable managers who won't be blinded by their own beliefs like Pep is

 

[bebeanderson]

I told you guys City would be fool's gold in Europe after watching them play Girona in a friendly

Premier League doesn't test City tactically.

Liverpool will get knocked out in next round with relative ease. EPL has huge problems in level of play given their huge financial advantage.

 

[deafepl]

I think City is not that strong as it seems but most EPL teams are not suited to counter Pep's style of play. In next season, they will figure out how to stop City like they did with Chelsea when they ran away with the league by changing the system to 3 back with wingbacks.

 

[Theonas]

I can't answer that because I didn't watched the game, but as already stated Klopp already caused problems for Guardiola in the Bundesliga and he keeps doing the same in England.

I have to say something regarding Mourinho and Liverpool, at least for now he looks the only manager who can block and frustrate Klopp or Liverpool if you like, even if he gets a lot of stick in the media and by the fans, maybe Spurs with Pochettino playing a different style at Anfield can compete with them.

Reality is if Mourinho went to Anfield playing like the media or the fans keep repeating he had to, he would get the same results as Guardiola since he is in England, and that is 3 matches in Anfield = 3 defeats.

Maybe he simply isn't only a coward and maybe he analyzed well what are the strengths Liverpool has at home, and if you give them space they just kill you.

By the way, I am not a big Mourinho fan, I am just presenting facts.

All of this makes perfect sense until we consider the fact that Mourinho's treatment of Liverpool is nowhere near exclusive. He does the same with any half decent side which would indicate that it has nothing to do with a particular respect for Liverpool's abilities and more to do with a general inability to build a team that can be pro active when there is no significant individual quality difference.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

It's stronger, but still not what it was in the late 2008s at all.

City's performance today has pretty much eliminated them from best PL team ever contention(unless they Pool Pool themselves).

 

[Acole9]

I think this season has been as poor as I've ever known it, pretty much from 10th downwards have been facing the drop.

 

[Rajma]

All of this makes perfect sense until we consider the fact that Mourinho's treatment of Liverpool is nowhere near exclusive. He does the same with any half decent side which would indicate that it has nothing to do with a particular respect for Liverpool's abilities and more to do with a general inability to build a team that can be pro active when there is no significant individual quality difference.

Away from home fine, I can live with that given it yields results but at home we simply have to go for it no matter the opponent.

 

[JPRouve]

I think this season has been as poor as I've ever known it, pretty much from 10th downwards have been facing the drop.

I thought that it was me, a good quarter of the teams aren't better than their Ligue 1 equivalent and that's not a compliment. I have felt the same about Bundesliga and Serie A though.

 

[Treble]

English teams have improved and will soon challenge for the CL. Real, Barca and Bayern have aging stars and will go through rebuilding soon.

 

[SCP]

All of this makes perfect sense until we consider the fact that Mourinho's treatment of Liverpool is nowhere near exclusive. He does the same with any half decent side which would indicate that it has nothing to do with a particular respect for Liverpool's abilities and more to do with a general inability to build a team that can be pro active when there is no significant individual quality difference.

I said I am not the biggest fan of current Mourinho, sure his teams struggle or seem unable to create problems away from home, specially with stronger teams, but it is a fact untill now Klopp is struggling much more to break the way Mourinho sets his teams to play than Guardiola, if Mourinho made this type of performance City did how do you think he would be labeled in the media or here?

I don't think he sets his teams to play like this at Anfield because he is a coward, its a mix between the inability to play a different way and at the same time he seems to know what strengths Liverpool has, reading some posts here at the time it seemed United should have gone there playing with a high defensive line and it would beat Liverpool easily.

 

[Theonas]

I said I am not the biggest fan of current Mourinho, sure his teams struggle or seem unable to create problems away from home, specially with stronger teams, but it is a fact untill now Klopp is struggling much more to break the way Mourinho sets his teams to play than Guardiola, if Mourinho made this type of performance City did how do you think he would be labeled in the media or here?

I don't think he sets his teams to play like this at Anfield because he is a coward, its a mix between the inability to play a different way and at the same time he seems to know what strengths Liverpool has, reading some posts here at the time it seemed United should have gone there playing with a high defensive line and it would beat Liverpool easily.

I perfectly agree. Mourinho is much less likely to be at the end of a hammering like a Pep team. I just don't think a coach's performances can be evaluated on a stand alone opponent. Klopp seems to have Guardiola's number just like Mourinho with Klopp. I just don't think there is much to read in that except that we are talking about top managers who boast different top qualities that are more or less suited to certain opponents and/or styles.

 

[Ridge Racer]

Behold, the most competitive league in the world, which means the best of course

 

[SCP]

Behold, the most competitive league in the world, which means the best of course

No just means Real Atletico and Barcelona are playing crap.

 

[FootballHQ]

Well I prefer a title race where two teams don't shoot 90 + points tbh which still looks likely in the premier league. Loved the competiveness of La Liga in the late 90s/early 00s. Their teams were still the best in europe back then btw.

Shaping up to be a really good relegation battle aswell with Bilbao, Villareal and Valencia all only winning a game each so far.

One plus for premier league is teams below top 6 are of better quality this year. Bournemouth and Wolves are genuinely excellent teams who will probably both challenge for europa if it goes down to 7th so stronger in depth than last season imo which is important for reasonably competitive league.

 

[SCP]

Well I prefer a title race where two teams don't shoot 90 + points tbh which still looks likely in the premier league. Loved the competiveness of La Liga in the late 90s/early 00s. Their teams were still the best in europe back then btw.

Shaping up to be a really good relegation battle aswell with Bilbao, Villareal and Valencia all only winning a game each so far.

One plus for premier league is teams below top 6 are of better quality this year. Bournemouth and Wolves are genuinely excellent teams who will probably both challenge for europa if it goes down to 7th so stronger in depth than last season imo which is important for reasonably competitive league.

I think Everton has potential to improve if Bernard and Richarlison stay fit.

 

[FootballHQ]

I think Everton has potential to improve if Bernard and Richarlison stay fit.

Yeah didn't really mention them as they should be up there with their squad and history so not as big a shock as Bournemouth and Wolves challenging for 6th.

 

[Sarni]

For the best league in the history of football the quality of the bottom third has been appalling this season. 14th placed Newcastle have 9 points from 20 games and are on pace to get about 30 points for the season. If you look at Newcastle, Palace, Southampton and especially Cardiff, Huddersfield, Burnley and Fulham (despite Seri) the quality is just awful.

 

[Mb194dc]

True, all the TV money is being wasted. Teams just pay ten times as much for the same quality players. Can understand Newcastle's approach.

Bottom eams couldn't be much worse if they just played academy talent.

 

[Wumminator]

For the best league in the history of football the quality of the bottom third has been appalling this season. 14th placed Newcastle have 9 points from 20 games and are on pace to get about 30 points for the season. If you look at Newcastle, Palace, Southampton and especially Cardiff, Huddersfield, Burnley and Fulham (despite Seri) the quality is just awful.

There is a group of teams emerging at the bottom who due to their perilous premier league status, are not investing like other clubs. Huddersfield and Cardiff are welcome additions to the prem, but can’t rightly expect many points.

Fulham have had an absolute mare. The rest aren’t competing really.

 

[do.ob]

There is a group of teams emerging at the bottom who due to their perilous Premier League status, are not investing like other clubs. Huddersfield and Cardiff are welcome additions to the prem, but can’t rightly expect many points.

Fulham have had an absolute mare. The rest aren’t competing really.

Teams with under 1ppg

20th Fulham: €109m, €-104.5m net
19th Huddersfield: €49m, €-37.5m net
18th Cadriff: €31m, €-31m net
17th Southampton: €63m, €-51m net
16th Crystal Palace: €11m, €-11m net
15th Burnley: €33m, €-33m net
14th Newcastle: €35m, €+9m net


????

 

[Wumminator]

Teams with under 1ppg

20th Fulham: €109m, €-104.5m net
19th Huddersfield: €49m, €-37.5m net
18th Cadriff: €31m, €-31m net
17th Southampton: €63m, €-51m net
16th Crystal Palace: €11m, €-11m net
15th Burnley: €33m, €-33m net
14th Newcastle: €35m, €+9m net


????

Yes. Exactly.

 

[Wumminator]

What’s the current belief on the strengths of teams in Europe?

 

[Trizy]

What’s the current belief on the strengths of teams in Europe?

City are favourites still. Both Spurs and Liverpool could beat anyone on their day.

We won't get past PSG.

 

[Mb194dc]

What’s the current belief on the strengths of teams in Europe?

The top 6 in the premier league have improved a lot since the Leicester title win are now as good as any of the other top teams across Europe. All on the same level as PSG, Juventus, FCB, Real, Atletico etc. Wouldn't be surprised to see an English CL/EL winnner this year or likely both. I think Utd have a good chance against PSG, now.

La liga still has the most depth though and the most technical footballing sides in it. Outside of the top 6 in the premier league the teams are dross. Most of them rely on physicality and have little technical ability. The rules for tackling / contact aren't enforced properly in England so they get away with it and have no incentive to actually try and play football. I would also say the standard of refereeing in the premier league is far below the other top leagues. When they get in Europe teams outside the top 6 generally get shown up (Burnley etc) as the poor teams they are. Hopefully VAR will help.

I prefer watching La Liga to the premier league generally at the moment as I prefer the style of football and think it's much fairer and better refereed.

 

[Trizy]

The top 6 in the premier league have improved a lot since the Leicester title win are now as good as any of the other top teams across Europe. All on the same level as PSG, Juventus, FCB, Real, Atletico etc. Wouldn't be surprised to see an English CL/EL winnner this year or likely both. I think Utd have a good chance against PSG, now.

La liga still has the most depth though and the most technical footballing sides in it. Outside of the top 6 in the premier league the teams are dross. Most of them rely on physicality and have little technical ability. The rules for tackling / contact aren't enforced properly in England so they get away with it and have no incentive to actually try and play football. I would also say the standard of refereeing in the premier league is far below the other top leagues. When they get in Europe teams outside the top 6 generally get shown up (Burnley etc) as the poor teams they are. Hopefully VAR will help.

I prefer watching La Liga to the premier league generally at the moment as I prefer the style of football and think it's much fairer and better refereed.

I dunno about dross outside the top 6. Watford, Everton, Wolves, Bournemouth and Leicester are all decent footballing sides.

 

[RedPed]

The top 6 in the premier league have improved a lot since the Leicester title win are now as good as any of the other top teams across Europe. All on the same level as PSG, Juventus, FCB, Real, Atletico etc. Wouldn't be surprised to see an English CL/EL winnner this year or likely both. I think Utd have a good chance against PSG, now.

La liga still has the most depth though and the most technical footballing sides in it. Outside of the top 6 in the premier league the teams are dross. Most of them rely on physicality and have little technical ability. The rules for tackling / contact aren't enforced properly in England so they get away with it and have no incentive to actually try and play football. I would also say the standard of refereeing in the premier league is far below the other top leagues. When they get in Europe teams outside the top 6 generally get shown up (Burnley etc) as the poor teams they are. Hopefully VAR will help.

I prefer watching La Liga to the premier league generally at the moment as I prefer the style of football and think it's much fairer and better refereed.

I don't know why people keep peddling this myth. La Liga is as boring as feck and no way does it have the most depth. People just spin those lines to make them sound hip (not referring to you specifically). The MLS is more exciting to watch than La Liga. Sure they do have some good games but the Premier League calendar is by far a much better draw than La Liga.

 

[Mb194dc]

Do you actually watch any La Liga?

Good example is the Rayo Vallecano v Barcelona game last month. Rayo took the game to Barcelona, despite losing at the end in a way you would never see in from a bottom side in the premier league. (Equivalent to Liverpool v Fulham on current league positions). I know which I'd rather watch. https://en.as.com/en/2018/11/03/football/1541272195_779605.html

La liga is an entire season ahead of England / Italy / Germany in the UEFA coefficient table, there is a reason for that!:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficient

The premier league has the best marketing..., the worst referees, 6 very good teams and that's about it.

I also prefer how they do the fixture list in La Liga, flipping it at the half way point. Seems much fairer to all the teams.