The RedCafe Boxing Thread

[Devil81]

3 rounds ahead going into the 8th? So he was 5-2 up? That’s a crazy opinion.

It’s being debated by people who have a high degree of bias. I don’t think Usyk won the margin he did, but I’m still totally convinced he won.

If you don’t agree with the result - fine, state the rounds you feel Fury won. But using the arguement “it’s debatable, look at the TV folk saying it!” is as ridiculous as saying a penalty was justifiably given to City because everyone on blue moon says it is.

Fury used his extra weight to his advantage early on in my opinion, he rolled the dice and gambled on the extra weight providing the knock out. It was obvious the further the fight went Usyk would end up dominating him as that tends to be the case with most Usyk fights and also Fury was clearly going to gas. In terms of the rounds he won the fight is now hazy in my head as I like most was drinking whilst watching the fight.

As for laughing faces and stuff, it was a close fight. That's the controversial side of it, a lot thought it would go the way of a draw but then on the face of it Usyk won a lot of the late rounds convincingly which isn't something I couldnt say about Fury's round wins. The tenth off memory was a round Fury stopped the rot a little.

Ultimately it was never a four round gap fight and biased opinions on the tv or not those guys thought similar.

 

[rimaldo]

The quality of a heavyweight era is surely defined by the quality of the fighters? How is it Fury’s fault that none of them are very good?

he’s left more than a few of the best of what’s available on the table, some after long, drawn out negotiations. not to mention some strange injuries in camps to delay fights, just go and fight chisora and wilder three times. he went over year without a defence at one point. yes he’s had his troubles out of the ring, that might explain a lot of it, but he’s been more than happy to play the game and try and swindle people out of their ppv money. both usyk and joshua should have happened years ago but he ducked them both repeatedly.

joshua, for all his faults, never acted like such a bitch. you can clearly see usyk doesn’t give a feck who he fights, he just wants to box and win. i think any love fury had for boxing went after that klitschko fight. maybe that was his everest and nothing was quite the same afterwards. he had achieved the end goal and couldn’t shift himself enough to give it a proper tilt. he just liked the money that came with it, so phoned it in. he’s a year younger than usyk, but looked like he was about ten year’s older yesterday. for me, he’s encapsulated most of what’s gone wrong this era and i can’t wait for him to disappear off into the sunset and leave the limelight for the next era who will hopefully deliver more.

 

[Gavinb33]

The quality of a heavyweight era is surely defined by the quality of the fighters? How is it Fury’s fault that none of them are very good?

It's not that they aren't good he didn't try and fight the decent ones when they were decent spending a lot of time talking a good game in the end he is in the same bracket as AJ, if they fought before AJ lost to Usyk it would have been the biggest heavyweight fight in a decade, the only heavyweight who has fought most of them without trying to duck anyone is Usyk in my opinion

 

[Pogue Mahone]

he’s left more than a few of the best of what’s available on the table, some after long, drawn out negotiations. not to mention some strange injuries in camps to delay fights, just go and fight chisora and wilder three times. he went over year without a defence at one point. yes he’s had his troubles out of the ring, that might explain a lot of it, but he’s been more than happy to play the game and try and swindle people out of their ppv money. both usyk and joshua should have happened years ago but he ducked them both repeatedly.

joshua, for all his faults, never acted like such a bitch. you can clearly see usyk doesn’t give a feck who he fights, he just wants to box and win. i think any love fury had for boxing went after that klitschko fight. maybe that was his everest and nothing was quite the same afterwards. he had achieved the end goal and couldn’t shift himself enough to give it a proper tilt. he just liked the money that came with it, so phoned it in. he’s a year younger than usyk, but looked like he was about ten year’s older yesterday. for me, he’s encapsulated most of what’s gone wrong this era and i can’t wait for him to disappear off into the sunset and leave the limelight for the next era who will hopefully deliver more.

He fought Usyk twice. So the era did get those fights eventually. Ultimately Joshua wasn’t very good. And him not being very good is as big a factor in this lame era as Fury avoiding him.

 

[Bondi77]

It was a boring fight.
Does anyone seriously think any of these two could compete with a 22yo Tyson?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's not that they aren't good he didn't try and fight the decent ones when they were decent spending a lot of time talking a good game in the end he is in the same bracket as AJ, if they fought before AJ lost to Usyk it would have been the biggest heavyweight fight in a decade, the only heavyweight who has fought most of them without trying to duck anyone is Usyk in my opinion

Usyk’s game as anything but he’s such an underwhelming heavyweight champion compared to fighters from past eras. That really sums up the low quality of the last several years. I don’t think Fury’s a great fighter either but he’s an interesting character and has been involved in some very entertaining scraps.

 

[rimaldo]

He fought Usyk twice. So the era did get those fights eventually. Ultimately Joshua wasn’t very good. And him not being very good is as big a factor in this lame era as Fury avoiding him.

and lost fairly comprehensively twice, which is probably why he’s ducked pretty much everyone else who he felt was remotely dangerous. you can just check who parker has fought to see some of the boxers fury’s managed to miss, including parker. it’s not his fault there’s not a pantheon of greats coming from this era, he’s been by far the worst at making the big fights or the medium fights not happen this era. his best performance was timing it all brilliantly grow incredibly fat off the saudi’s though. traditional ppv would have been bored with him ages ago.

 

[The Purley King]

It was a boring fight.
Does anyone seriously think any of these two could compete with a 22yo Tyson?

It was underwhelming certainly.
Usyk does have a touch of the mayweather about him. I couldn’t watch hardly any mayweather fights, the boxing equivalent of watching George Graham’s arsenal.
Mike Tyson would wipe the floor with both fury and usyk and Lennox would have schooled them both as well.
Having grown up with Tyson, Eubank, benn etc I miss those type of fights.

 

[Kazi]

Just seen an interview with Turki and he also had it 8-4 for Usyk, fair play to him

 

[Kazi]

It was a boring fight.
Does anyone seriously think any of these two could compete with a 22yo Tyson?

Sorry to be a party pooper but a 22yo Tyson proved absolutely nothing

 

[Baneofthegame]

Only saw the last six rounds, but Fury only really won one of them imo, which I believe was round 10, so not sure how the scorecards were reflected until I rewatch the first half later.

Had a genuine discussion whether AJ actually got the closest out of the two from the second fight where he couldn’t close out the last three rounds.

Anyway, congrats to Usyk, he’s a great boxer.

 

[SilentWitness]

Fury used his extra weight to his advantage early on in my opinion, he rolled the dice and gambled on the extra weight providing the knock out. It was obvious the further the fight went Usyk would end up dominating him as that tends to be the case with most Usyk fights and also Fury was clearly going to gas. In terms of the rounds he won the fight is now hazy in my head as I like most was drinking whilst watching the fight.

As for laughing faces and stuff, it was a close fight. That's the controversial side of it, a lot thought it would go the way of a draw but then on the face of it Usyk won a lot of the late rounds convincingly which isn't something I couldnt say about Fury's round wins. The tenth off memory was a round Fury stopped the rot a little.

Ultimately it was never a four round gap fight and biased opinions on the tv or not those guys thought similar.

I'm laughing because you said Fury was three up by the 8th round. That's complete guff.

 

[Dan_F]

It was a boring fight.
Does anyone seriously think any of these two could compete with a 22yo Tyson?

We’ll never know, but Tyson’s record is filled with a lot average boxers through the 80s that he ran through. The 80’s was weaker than the current era of heavyweights imo.

 

[Bondi77]

It was underwhelming certainly.
Usyk does have a touch of the mayweather about him. I couldn’t watch hardly any mayweather fights, the boxing equivalent of watching George Graham’s arsenal.
Mike Tyson would wipe the floor with both fury and usyk and Lennox would have schooled them both as well.
Having grown up with Tyson, Eubank, benn etc I miss those type of fights.

I wholeheartedly agree with you.

 

[MoskvaRed]

It was a boring fight.
Does anyone seriously think any of these two could compete with a 22yo Tyson?

Probably not but, if you are selecting one period of Tyson’s career, by the time Tyson was the same age (or slightly younger than) Fury and Usyk are now, he was an immobile punchbag for Lennox Lewis. Even by 24 he was in steep decline.

Usyk is a generational talent as a boxer but it’s difficult to make a case for him as a great heavyweight. Also, as a smaller technician, his flights lack that explosiveness and sense of jeopardy that makes great heavyweight boxing such compelling viewing.

 

[G-manc]

in the end, fury will go down in history as a very rich man for one good performance against an ancient klitschko, ducking nearly everyone else, to fight derek chisora 3 times and pad his stats. it really has been the worst heavyweight era of all time, and fury is the main cause of that.

Out of interest, who is that?

He’ll probably fight Joshua before he retires and as you’ve alluded to, it’s been a pretty poor era.

No one with a brain is going to raise an eyebrow at someone’s CV cos they haven’t fought Dominic Brezeale or Andy Ruiz.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Fury used his extra weight to his advantage early on in my opinion, he rolled the dice and gambled on the extra weight providing the knock out. It was obvious the further the fight went Usyk would end up dominating him as that tends to be the case with most Usyk fights and also Fury was clearly going to gas. In terms of the rounds he won the fight is now hazy in my head as I like most was drinking whilst watching the fight.

As for laughing faces and stuff, it was a close fight. That's the controversial side of it, a lot thought it would go the way of a draw but then on the face of it Usyk won a lot of the late rounds convincingly which isn't something I couldnt say about Fury's round wins. The tenth off memory was a round Fury stopped the rot a little.

Ultimately it was never a four round gap fight and biased opinions on the tv or not those guys thought similar.

You genuinely think Fury was up 5-2 at round 8?

 

[DixieDean]

and lost fairly comprehensively twice, which is probably why he’s ducked pretty much everyone else who he felt was remotely dangerous. you can just check who parker has fought to see some of the boxers fury’s managed to miss, including parker. it’s not his fault there’s not a pantheon of greats coming from this era, he’s been by far the worst at making the big fights or the medium fights not happen this era. his best performance was timing it all brilliantly grow incredibly fat off the saudi’s though. traditional ppv would have been bored with him ages ago.

Spot on. I've said it for ages about Fury.

 

[Lay]

That trilogy involved the most entertaining heavyweight fights in years. Without them this era would seem even less interesting. Has Usyk been involved in any classic fights!? Last night was so boring.

Maybe we would have seen both of them fight someone else. One of them should have fought AJ rather than have another fight.

 

[DixieDean]

Out of interest, who is that?

He’ll probably fight Joshua before he retires and as you’ve alluded to, it’s been a pretty poor era.

No one with a brain is going to raise an eyebrow at someone’s CV cos they haven’t fought Dominic Brezeale or Andy Ruiz.

Andy Ruiz is a good fighter. So is parker. The type of fighters fury has spent a career not fighting for versus reasons.

He was insanely overrated because he beat a limited Wilder 2 times. The nonsense written after the 3rd one will live in the memory. He deserves credit for getting thought them because of Wilders power, however, Wilders was so limited in his skill set.

 

[The Cat]

It's going to be a Fury Joshua fight next year isn't it?

Unless Fury tries going after Dubois.

 

[Lay]

and lost fairly comprehensively twice, which is probably why he’s ducked pretty much everyone else who he felt was remotely dangerous. you can just check who parker has fought to see some of the boxers fury’s managed to miss, including parker. it’s not his fault there’s not a pantheon of greats coming from this era, he’s been by far the worst at making the big fights or the medium fights not happen this era. his best performance was timing it all brilliantly grow incredibly fat off the saudi’s though. traditional ppv would have been bored with him ages ago.

Agreed. Fury took some shite fights like Chisora, Ngannou, Schwarz, Paineta, Wilder the third time when he could have faced the likes of Parker, Ruiz, AJ, even Ortiz. He avoided a lot of banana skins during his peak years

 

[DixieDean]

We’ll never know, but Tyson’s record is filled with a lot average boxers through the 80s that he ran through. The 80’s was weaker than the current era of heavyweights imo.

Correct. Tyson was a phenomenon at a young age but even his 'prime' he went the distance a couple of times.

 

[DixieDean]

Agreed. Fury took some shite fights like Chisora, Ngannou, Schwarz, Paineta, Wilder the third time when he could have faced the likes of Parker, Ruiz, AJ, even Ortiz. He avoided a lot of banana skins during his peak years

that's a good way of looking at it. I think him taking those years off made people think he was better than he was. Very good but not great. His CV just isn't there.

 

[DixieDean]

The quality of a heavyweight era is surely defined by the quality of the fighters? How is it Fury’s fault that none of them are very good?

I think there are a few very good heavy weights in the last 10 years. Outside of Usyk, no all time greats, though. The HW div through history tends to not have much talent in depth. The exception being the 90's and 70's.

 

[Bepi]

Who cares Usyk is not Mike Tyson? Nobody, really. Who cares (the most) about Fury’s loss? Mainly, his promoter, who was (possibly…) convinced it was going fixed/rigged Fury’s way in order to have the third installment and half billion dollars more to make.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Maybe we would have seen both of them fight someone else. One of them should have fought AJ rather than have another fight.

Ah yeah. 100%. It’s been a crappy era because of stuff like that. I’m just saying that Fury has probably been involved in more of the best fights from the era than anyone else.

 

[JP77]

and lost fairly comprehensively twice, which is probably why he’s ducked pretty much everyone else who he felt was remotely dangerous. you can just check who parker has fought to see some of the boxers fury’s managed to miss, including parker. it’s not his fault there’s not a pantheon of greats coming from this era, he’s been by far the worst at making the big fights or the medium fights not happen this era. his best performance was timing it all brilliantly grow incredibly fat off the saudi’s though. traditional ppv would have been bored with him ages ago.

Except he didn’t lose like that, both ridiculously close fights that split a lot of opinions.

Can we also remember Fury spent close to 3 years out of the ring after beating Klitschko after basically having a mental, suicidal breakdown and going off on a drink and drugs binge which came close to ending his life. There’s no doubt what so ever that took a few fights off of the table, years out of the ring and when he did come back he needed a few fights to get his career back on track. Then went on to take on the man that at the time was regarded as the most dangerous heavyweight in the division at the time, doesn’t sound like a man ducking fighters?

It’s clear why the AJ fight didn’t happen, money and ego. Outside of him who has he really hidden away from? I would love to see the names tbh. He’s fought Usyk. He fought the most dangerous Wilder. He fought Klitschko. It’s only really Joshua. One or two other names weren’t really even entertained by anybody.

Fury is such a huge personality that it really forms people’s opinions of his performances etc in his fights. Is he the greatest ever? No. Is he a very good fighter? Yes. And certainly one of the best heavyweights over the last 10-15 years and would likely give a good amount of the heavyweights over the years a great fight. I think there’s a lot of underrating of Fury and now a bit of overrating of Usyk if we are being honest. Fury got out smart last night in the second half the fight and the stamina wasn’t as strong as Usyk. Talent wise there’s very little in it.

 

[Zlatan 7]

You made an analogy that made absolutely no sense in the context. Apologies if I read your intentions wrong, but it seemed as if you were trying to belittle the point.

And when you rewatch, try to watch it from the perspective of what actually happened and not what "people are making out". Because Fury has his moments, I thought he was much better than the first fight at times, but the smaller man bossed him around more and controlled that ring far better and for longer. I personally think that matters a lot.

I wasn’t belittling the point, and I agree with you really, it made me think if someone like say calzage could get in with a heavy weight these days and just throw more punches and avoid being hit to be heavy weight champion.

As it is with fury, he hasn’t got the one punch power to knockout usyk and hasnt got the ability to outbox him either, he seemed aware of this and never really went after usyk anywhere near enough to win the fight. I think it’s a fight he could never win but also it wasn’t as one sided as I’ve seen made out.

I think Dubois will have more chance against usyk as Atleast he could really hurt him although being outboxed.

 

[Redlambs]

I wasn’t belittling the point, and I agree with you really, it made me think if someone like say calzage could get in with a heavy weight these days and just throw more punches and avoid being hit to be heavy weight champion.

As it is with fury, he hasn’t got the one punch power to knockout usyk and hasnt got the ability to outbox him either, he seemed aware of this and never really went after usyk anywhere near enough to win the fight. I think it’s a fight he could never win but also it wasn’t as one sided as I’ve seen made out.

I think Dubois will have more chance against usyk as Atleast he could really hurt him although being outboxed.

Yeah, Dubois would be a challenge again. I wonder if Usyk will take it?

I do agree with the rest of your post, Fury did have some good moments and the fight was closer than some think...but I don't think the scorecards are that out overall, as even though Fury looked better this time and had some moments they seemed to mainly come in rounds where Usyk had his moments too. Maybe if I watch it again, there might be an extra drawn round in there somewhere.

All in all though, I was entertained by a HW fight for once. At least Fury didn't spend the whole fight using dirty tricks (apart from his headband trunks) and we got some interesting moments.

 

[Dan_F]

There’s definitely a lack of respect from some for what Usyk has done in the last couple of years, beating much bigger men who are out of his natural weight class. He had Fury in a lot of trouble in that first fight so to say he’s boring is a strange one.

Ah yeah. 100%. It’s been a crappy era because of stuff like that. I’m just saying that Fury has probably been involved in more of the best fights from the era than anyone else.

How are you defining best fights?

 

[Balljy]

I wasn’t belittling the point, and I agree with you really, it made me think if someone like say calzage could get in with a heavy weight these days and just throw more punches and avoid being hit to be heavy weight champion.

As it is with fury, he hasn’t got the one punch power to knockout usyk and hasnt got the ability to outbox him either, he seemed aware of this and never really went after usyk anywhere near enough to win the fight. I think it’s a fight he could never win but also it wasn’t as one sided as I’ve seen made out.

I think Dubois will have more chance against usyk as Atleast he could really hurt him although being outboxed.

I think Lewis and to a lesser extent Klitschko changed the division a bit as they were big men with speed and power. The division got heavier and heavier as a result, but Usyk shows talented smaller men can still do it. It will only take the next man with size and speed to dominate that though.

I was thinking the same as you with someone like Calzaghe, the scoring system is setup for volume punching.

 

[VorZakone]

We’ll never know, but Tyson’s record is filled with a lot average boxers through the 80s that he ran through. The 80’s was weaker than the current era of heavyweights imo.

Fun decade though with Leonard, Duran, Hagler and Hearns?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

There’s definitely a lack of respect from some for what Usyk has done in the last couple of years, beating much bigger men who are out of his natural weight class. He had Fury in a lot of trouble in that first fight so to say he’s boring is a strange one.


How are you defining best fights?

Good to watch. At the end of the day this is all just entertainment.

 

[giorno]

Usyk is in conversation for CruiserW goat, moved up and cleaned out the HW division. The only time he was even in trouble was when Dubois possibly hit him below the belt - and then he ended that fight by stoppage

He's an all time great, plain and simple

 

[Red the Bear]

Usyk is in conversation for CruiserW goat, moved up and cleaned out the HW division. The only time he was even in trouble was when Dubois possibly hit him below the belt - and then he ended that fight by stoppage

He's an all time great, plain and simple

He's been a bit unlucky that through his rise in the heavy division he lacks that signature fight to help build his legendry status.

When people talk about the boxers they remember the most it's either a combination of a few hard fought, almost willing through difficulties ie hollyfield or one sided dominance ie tyson and foreman or what's usually the case a combination of both ie ali and lewis.

Now mind you usyk had both of those things at Cruiser but his heavyweight reign as impressive as is lacks that awe factor though obviously through no fault of his own as both the caliber of his opponents and his lack of punching power paired with his technical excellence precluded those things from happening.


As it stands I'd say he's displaced his predecessor klitchko as ukraines greatest heavy and is pushing his spot among the top 10 of all time.

 

[Zen]

That trilogy involved the most entertaining heavyweight fights in years. Without them this era would seem even less interesting. Has Usyk been involved in any classic fights!? Last night was so boring.

DAZN Youtube pushing last night as an "ALL TIME CLASSIC" for the highlights clip

 

[Glorio]

Except he didn’t lose like that, both ridiculously close fights that split a lot of opinions.

Can we also remember Fury spent close to 3 years out of the ring after beating Klitschko after basically having a mental, suicidal breakdown and going off on a drink and drugs binge which came close to ending his life. There’s no doubt what so ever that took a few fights off of the table, years out of the ring and when he did come back he needed a few fights to get his career back on track. Then went on to take on the man that at the time was regarded as the most dangerous heavyweight in the division at the time, doesn’t sound like a man ducking fighters?

It’s clear why the AJ fight didn’t happen, money and ego. Outside of him who has he really hidden away from? I would love to see the names tbh. He’s fought Usyk. He fought the most dangerous Wilder. He fought Klitschko. It’s only really Joshua. One or two other names weren’t really even entertained by anybody.

Fury is such a huge personality that it really forms people’s opinions of his performances etc in his fights. Is he the greatest ever? No. Is he a very good fighter? Yes. And certainly one of the best heavyweights over the last 10-15 years and would likely give a good amount of the heavyweights over the years a great fight. I think there’s a lot of underrating of Fury and now a bit of overrating of Usyk if we are being honest. Fury got out smart last night in the second half the fight and the stamina wasn’t as strong as Usyk. Talent wise there’s very little in it.

Let's not forget that episode all emerged from an extended masterclass in legendary ducking by Fury (from Klitchko for the rematch).

 

[Dan_F]

Good to watch. At the end of the day this is all just entertainment.

If that’s the metric, give me a Joshua fight to watch any day of the week.

 

[Dan_F]

Except he didn’t lose like that, both ridiculously close fights that split a lot of opinions.

Can we also remember Fury spent close to 3 years out of the ring after beating Klitschko after basically having a mental, suicidal breakdown and going off on a drink and drugs binge which came close to ending his life. There’s no doubt what so ever that took a few fights off of the table, years out of the ring and when he did come back he needed a few fights to get his career back on track. Then went on to take on the man that at the time was regarded as the most dangerous heavyweight in the division at the time, doesn’t sound like a man ducking fighters?

It’s clear why the AJ fight didn’t happen, money and ego. Outside of him who has he really hidden away from? I would love to see the names tbh. He’s fought Usyk. He fought the most dangerous Wilder. He fought Klitschko. It’s only really Joshua. One or two other names weren’t really even entertained by anybody.

Fury is such a huge personality that it really forms people’s opinions of his performances etc in his fights. Is he the greatest ever? No. Is he a very good fighter? Yes. And certainly one of the best heavyweights over the last 10-15 years and would likely give a good amount of the heavyweights over the years a great fight. I think there’s a lot of underrating of Fury and now a bit of overrating of Usyk if we are being honest. Fury got out smart last night in the second half the fight and the stamina wasn’t as strong as Usyk. Talent wise there’s very little in it.

Getting out-jabbed by someone with a 7 inch reach, 6 inch height disadvantage is quite significant. It suggests Uysk is comfortably a better boxer.