The RedCafe Boxing Thread

Glorio said:
I think it's more about the engine than focus. He couldn't capitalise because he didn't have gas in the tank to do so. Usyk's engine is unmatched by heavyweights and he knows that as long as he keeps the pace up and pressures them relentlessly, they can't keep up.
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I have to disagree, the first fight was definitely about lack of focus for Fury, I know Usyk's engine is ridiculous but Fury was completely dominant in the middle part of that fight, and then he started wasting energy and time clowning around. Normally Fury has got a good engine too - not to the level of Usyk, but still very good - as evidenced by him recovering from the knockdown and boxing well again in the final round of the fight.

In the second fight he definitely ran out of gas, he came in too heavy and negated his own strengths to try to turn into a one punch KO artist, something he'll never be.
 
AdNani said:
Prime Klitschko beats fury quite comfortably on points in my opinion, very underrated.
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Klitschko was incredibly one-note. He was chinny and robotic, and relied a lot on his size and friendly judges. Fury beat him because he's better than Klitschko at being Klitschko.
 
Fortitude said:
Yeah but not better boxers; that's the first time he's experienced superior boxing and if you have a whole body of work predicated on being outright better at something than those you face, it's got to be a shock to the system.

It's not really about being the most powerful puncher with regard to Usyk, but having enough power to dissuade and distract, which he has proven with everyone at HW except Whyte - who incidentally has the punch resistance a tier or two lower than those from the 90's and 70's - and it has played a huge factor in how he has been approached by fighters who have relied on their size throughout their careers.

It's one thing to be outgunned or outboxed, but in combination, it presents a very different kind of puzzle and I think that is being underestimated in terms of why Fury had the approach that he did, and that's with being mindful of his own tank and awareness of Usyk's already being superior let alone with the added weight to contend with.
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Fury wasn't outgunned by Usyk though, if by that you're meaning "hits harder". In terms of individual punching power neither are elite, with Fury having a slight edge. The main difference in the second fight is that Fury would take at least 2 for every 1 he landed, but that's a lot to do with him taking the wrong approach to it.

As for outboxed, Usyk definitely outboxed Fury in this fight, but the previous fight was very even, with both dominating for periods and Fury likely costing himself the win by clowning around while he was on top and letting Usyk back into it. That's why it's so bizarre he came in with this hay(e)maker approach when more of the same without the silliness and mistakes would have been a much better approach. Even in terms of their stamina, while Usyk's ridiculous tank is in a class of it's own, Fury's is still elite, in the first fight he recovered from the KD and boxed well in the final round.
 
The Hilton said:
Klitschko was incredibly one-note. He was chinny and robotic, and relied a lot on his size and friendly judges. Fury beat him because he's better than Klitschko at being Klitschko.
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To be fair after he got under steward he devoloped a mean jab and great ring generalship, admittedly he did abuse the clinching free getaway card but still.

Also he packed one he'll of a punch, among the very best, a hard beat for anyone.
 
Fury vs Joshua would generate broad attention and relatively good money imho, just spinning it as one-in-one-out elimination game for the upcoming couple years at the top of the HW divsion? Also consider Usyk could really move down to cruiser, again, after another match at HW against the big hitter, English speaking Dubois.
 
Red the Bear said:
To be fair after he got under steward he devoloped a mean jab and great ring generalship, admittedly he did abuse the clinching free getaway card but still.

Also he packed one he'll of a punch, among the very best, a hard beat for anyone.
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I'm not saying he was a pushover or anything, he was very good at what he did, but Fury was a hard counter for him really, so much of Klitschko's game was about using his size and reach, which Fury took away from him.
 
Bepi said:
Fury vs Joshua would generate broad attention and relatively good money imho, just spinning it as one-in-one-out elimination game for the upcoming couple years at the top of the HW divsion? Also consider Usyk could really move down to cruiser, again, after another match at HW against the big hitter, English speaking Dubois.
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Do you really see Usyk moving back down? I thought last weekend he finally looked like he had built up to being a solid looking HW, albeit still small in the context of Fury, Joshua etc.

There’s not really much pull to go back down either, is there?
 
youngrell said:
Do you really see Usyk moving back down? I thought last weekend he finally looked like he had built up to being a solid looking HW, albeit still small in the context of Fury, Joshua etc.

There’s not really much pull to go back down either, is there?
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He has (maybe) outgrown the role of the villain in this bubble? Forcing / luring him into a match vs Dubois to make amendment for the missed Fury III installment would serve him no good, either he wins or loses imho.
 
The Hilton said:
I have to disagree, the first fight was definitely about lack of focus for Fury, I know Usyk's engine is ridiculous but Fury was completely dominant in the middle part of that fight, and then he started wasting energy and time clowning around. Normally Fury has got a good engine too - not to the level of Usyk, but still very good - as evidenced by him recovering from the knockdown and boxing well again in the final round of the fight.

In the second fight he definitely ran out of gas, he came in too heavy and negated his own strengths to try to turn into a one punch KO artist, something he'll never be.
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You're overselling the clowning around. A lot of that was for show, it's not like he was ahead as Usyk had definitely dominated the start of the fight. When he had success between rounds 4 to 6, to sustain it he'd have to keep up with Usyk who with that amateur-type pendulum stance is always a moving target, and he couldn't keep up, especially considering Usyk was always punch-busy even then.
 
The Hilton said:
Klitschko was incredibly one-note. He was chinny and robotic, and relied a lot on his size and friendly judges. Fury beat him because he's better than Klitschko at being Klitschko.
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Fury beat Klitschko because Klitschko was past his best, the fact he was getting on and gave AJ and Fury a great fight says it all,

Great Jab, great power, ring IQ he was a great, if not very entertaining fighter. In his pomp he comfortably beats both and Usyk in my opinion
 
AdNani said:
Fury beat Klitschko because Klitschko was past his best, the fact he was getting on and gave AJ and Fury a great fight says it all,

Great Jab, great power, ring IQ he was a great, if not very entertaining fighter. In his pomp he comfortably beats both and Usyk in my opinion
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There was a rumour flying before the first Usyk - Joshua fight that Usyk was at Fury's camp and Usyk was running rings round Klitchko so much in front of a fair number of onlookers that they pulled Usyk and kicked him out :lol:

Not saying that means he'd definitely win, but the man is special

Edit:
Link - https://www.talksport.com/boxing/94...klitschko-sparring-anthony-joshua-boxing/amp/
 
Glorio said:
There was a rumour flying before the first Usyk - Joshua fight that Usyk was at Fury's camp and Usyk was running rings round Klitchko so much in front of a fair number of onlookers that they pulled Usyk and kicked him out :lol:

Not saying that means he'd definitely win, but the man is special
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I'd have Usyk winning. Klitchko was very efficient behind his jab and was a great champion but I'd back Usyk to find the way around it.
 
Glorio said:
There was a rumour flying before the first Usyk - Joshua fight that Usyk was at Fury's camp and Usyk was running rings round Klitchko so much in front of a fair number of onlookers that they pulled Usyk and kicked him out :lol:

Not saying that means he'd definitely win, but the man is special

Edit:
Link - https://www.talksport.com/boxing/94...klitschko-sparring-anthony-joshua-boxing/amp/
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Yeah, at the time i thought it was rubbish but now I lean towards it being true.
 
youngrell said:
Do you really see Usyk moving back down? I thought last weekend he finally looked like he had built up to being a solid looking HW, albeit still small in the context of Fury, Joshua etc.

There’s not really much pull to go back down either, is there?
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Around the first fight he complained about all the bulking up to be at HW. But there's really not a lot of reasons to go back at CW, financially or legacy wise.
 
youngrell said:
Do you really see Usyk moving back down? I thought last weekend he finally looked like he had built up to being a solid looking HW, albeit still small in the context of Fury, Joshua etc.

There’s not really much pull to go back down either, is there?
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Usyk has supposedly been struggling to stay within the HW limit. He's naturally a cruiser blowing up to reach the heavier division. It's a testament to his boxing skills that his disparity in weight compared to those he's sharing the ring with is almost never a talking point.

Being consistently 30-40 even 50 pounds lighter is ridiculous. Any other weight class and the fight wouldn't be sanctioned under such instances. I wouldn't class Usyk as the best ever but he's certainly the best heavyweight of the 21st century subjectively.
 
AdNani said:
Fury beat Klitschko because Klitschko was past his best, the fact he was getting on and gave AJ and Fury a great fight says it all,

Great Jab, great power, ring IQ he was a great, if not very entertaining fighter. In his pomp he comfortably beats both and Usyk in my opinion
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We'll have to agree to disagree here, in his prime he was still chinny and robotic. He also didn't give Fury a great fight, he didn't get anywhere near him really.

Usyk would demolish prime Klitschko, his jab-grab-repeat tactics wouldn't work against someone with such good footwork.
 
Glorio said:
You're overselling the clowning around. A lot of that was for show, it's not like he was ahead as Usyk had definitely dominated the start of the fight. When he had success between rounds 4 to 6, to sustain it he'd have to keep up with Usyk who with that amateur-type pendulum stance is always a moving target, and he couldn't keep up, especially considering Usyk was always punch-busy even then.
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Fury didn't "have success" in rounds 4 to 6, he was basically hitting at will. Usyk had started brighter agreed but, ahead or not, Fury was in total control. The issue is that he was getting progressively sillier as the rounds went on, he got way too overconfident as he was having it pretty easy, and took his foot off the gas. Usyk making adjustments contributed too, but Fury had the fight at his mercy and let it slip.
 
The Hilton said:
Fury didn't "have success" in rounds 4 to 6, he was basically hitting at will. Usyk had started brighter agreed but, ahead or not, Fury was in total control. The issue is that he was getting progressively sillier as the rounds went on, he got way too overconfident as he was having it pretty easy, and took his foot off the gas. Usyk making adjustments contributed too, but Fury had the fight at his mercy and let it slip.
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No he was never in total control. Being silly during breaks in action doesn't mean he took his foot off. He was doing all that exactly to sell this idea. To keep on catching the ultra mobile Usyk, he'd have had to expend a lot of energy, and that's a often overlooked factor.
 
Glorio said:
No he was never in total control. Being silly during breaks in action doesn't mean he took his foot off. He was doing all that exactly to sell this idea. To keep on catching the ultra mobile Usyk, he'd have had to expend a lot of energy, and that's a often overlooked factor.
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He was creating the breaks in action though, by being silly instead of pressing the issue, he absolutely took his foot off the gas.

People tend to underestimate Fury's tank when fit, the first fight is a great example, he was able to recover from the knockdown and box well again in the 12th, his engine might not be at the level of Usyk, which is in a class of it's own, but it's still elite for a heavyweight.
 
The Hilton said:
He was creating the breaks in action though, by being silly instead of pressing the issue, he absolutely took his foot off the gas.

People tend to underestimate Fury's tank when fit, the first fight is a great example, he was able to recover from the knockdown and box well again in the 12th, his engine might not be at the level of Usyk, which is in a class of it's own, but it's still elite for a heavyweight.
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I don’t think he took his foot off the gas, he simply didn’t have the gas to keep throwing. Had he been able to sustain his attacks, I think he could have stopped or at least dropped Usyk during those early-middle rounds of the first fight. But, he didn’t have it in him.
 
AdNani said:
Fury beat Klitschko because Klitschko was past his best, the fact he was getting on and gave AJ and Fury a great fight says it all,

Great Jab, great power, ring IQ he was a great, if not very entertaining fighter. In his pomp he comfortably beats both and Usyk in my opinion
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There isn't a fighter in the history of heavyweight boxing who would beat Usyk comfortably. Usyk's skill set would cause problems for absolutely everyone.

Not saying that he beats the absolute best, but he's causing issues for everyone. Including Vladimir. Who he outboxes, comfortably.
 
M15 Red. said:
There isn't a fighter in the history of heavyweight boxing who would beat Usyk comfortably. Usyk's skill set would cause problems for absolutely everyone.

Not saying that he beats the absolute best, but he's causing issues for everyone. Including Vladimir. Who he outboxes, comfortably.
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100%. Usyk is a great boxer in any era. The guy’s so underrated it’s unbelievable. IMO he’s even currently the best pound for pound boxer in boxing.
 
M15 Red. said:
There isn't a fighter in the history of heavyweight boxing who would beat Usyk comfortably. Usyk's skill set would cause problems for absolutely everyone.

Not saying that he beats the absolute best, but he's causing issues for everyone. Including Vladimir. Who he outboxes, comfortably.
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Was worded poorly I didnt mean he beats Usyk comfortably, I just meant he beats fury and Joshua comfortably and wins the Usyk fight.

I would say Lewis has the least trouble with Usyk, but like you say he gives the very best a very good fight.
 
Usyk is great but he's more Mourinho or 93 Milan. By which I mean he hasn't got the attacking flair of Brazil or Real or Barca, Man Utd etc. In boxing terms he us very tactical. He knows when to push to nick rounds and he knows when to shut up shop when the opponent is in the ascendancy. Add to that he has elite stamina. Especially at heavyweight. I'm sure he would give any boxer in history a tough match but for me he lacks that level of aggression and knock out power to be truly great. Maybe that's just me.
 
youngrell said:
I don’t think he took his foot off the gas, he simply didn’t have the gas to keep throwing. Had he been able to sustain his attacks, I think he could have stopped or at least dropped Usyk during those early-middle rounds of the first fight. But, he didn’t have it in him.
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That's revisionism for me, the clowning around was clear for all to see, he was back to boxing really well in the 12th round so he clearly did have the gas.
 
The Hilton said:
That's revisionism for me, the clowning around was clear for all to see, he was back to boxing really well in the 12th round so he clearly did have the gas.
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It’s not revisionism, you can probably check back at my comments on the night or the day after and see I said similar.

Watch the fight back, or just those middle rounds. If he’d been able to sustain his output I think he could’ve got the job done. The clowning wasn’t his downfall IMO.
 
youngrell said:
It’s not revisionism, you can probably check back at my comments on the night or the day after and see I said similar.

Watch the fight back, or just those middle rounds. If he’d been able to sustain his output I think he could’ve got the job done. The clowning wasn’t his downfall IMO.
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Well if it isn't revisionism, then it's just incorrect in my book, that opinion isn't borne out by the facts. Fury won the final round on all 3 of the judges' scorecards, after recovering from the knockdown, so he clearly had enough gas in the tank.

The clowning around is what cost him, he let Usyk back in to the fight, and led to the knockdown that unarguably cost him the fight.
 
Floyd is supposed to be coming back with a rematch against Victor Ortiz as part of a 3 fight deal with Saudi
 
T_Model101 said:
Floyd is supposed to be coming back with a rematch against Victor Ortiz as part of a 3 fight deal with Saudi
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I read some interview with Ortiz a few months ago where he came up with this utterly nonsense story about fighting on a Top Rank show and not knowing his opponent until he stepped in the ring.

Literally would not happen and he got so many details wrong around the fight and the event. Doesn't seem like he should be getting punched in the head still...

Really hope all this circus nonsense following boxing around comes to an end soon.
 
T_Model101 said:
Floyd is supposed to be coming back with a rematch against Victor Ortiz as part of a 3 fight deal with Saudi
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Did you get that info from the Benson account ? Because Benson sold his account to Turki to transform it into the new Ring one and some jokester created a fake Benson account who a lot of people (including outlets) fell for.
 
Plastic Evra said:
Did you get that info from the Benson account ? Because Benson sold his account to Turki to transform it into the new Ring one and some jokester created a fake Benson account who a lot of people (including outlets) fell for.
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Yep.Sucked me in too obviously :lol:
 
T_Model101 said:
Yep.Sucked me in too obviously :lol:
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Hard to avoid because boxing journalism is a lot of recycling and his tweets get laundered by others.

Floyd was maybe supposed to fight Ortiz in MX but that was changed to Gotti III... II.

Teremoana gets another R1 TKO. Fun guy that seems to enjoy being there. We'll see how he goes through the step ups but giant man with relatively fast feet and hands males for a good prospect.
 
T_Model101 said:
Yep.Sucked me in too obviously :lol:
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Hard to avoid because boxing journalism is a lot of recycling and his tweets get laundered by others.

Floyd was maybe supposed to fight Ortiz in MX but that was changed to Gotti III... II.

Teremoana gets another R1 TKO. Fun guy that seems to enjoy being there. We'll see how he goes through the step ups but giant man with relatively fast feet and hands makes for a good prospect.

Very scary KO dealt by Opetaia. Seems we may get the Zurdo fight next and that's great.
 
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