The RedCafe Boxing Thread

[mr.suave]

That was the most I have seen Wlad hit in years. He was actually marked up around the face.

How much did you win?

£35. £7 bet - high stakes shit!

Made it a bit sweeter though, as did Haye's interview where he practically had to be coerced into admitting Wlad had fought a much better fight. A bit of class in defeat wouldn't have gone amiss.

And I agree that Mayweather will beat Pacquiao. Pacquiao doesn't look quite so spectacular when he's up against someone with timing and accuracy. Marquez gave him fits (although that's partly because he was willing to to hold his ground and exchange shots when he needed to) and Mosley made him look sloppy simply by fighting off the back foot. Even Cotto had some success in the first couple of rounds by keeping things tight and working the jab.

The way to beat Pacquiao is by boxing intelligently and who does that better than Floyd?

 

[Stretch]

I actually didn't think Haye did that badly considering how most of the world held the view that he doesn't belong on that level (Brits aside ) He gave Vlad the biggest fight he's had in years and he actually landed some decent blows. I thought Vlad would wrap it up in a few rounds.

 

[Neutral]

£35. £7 bet - high stakes shit!

Made it a bit sweeter though, as did Haye's interview where he practically had to be coerced into admitting Wlad had fought a much better fight. A bit of class in defeat wouldn't have gone amiss.

Think he realizes that himself now....

mrdavidhaye david haye
Thanks so much to all my fans for supporting me. It truly means so much. I did the best I could, but my best wasn't good enough. Sorry.

mrdavidhaye david haye
Wladamir was the better man last night.He did exactly what he needed to win decision. He's a great fighter, and a hard man to beat.Respect.

 

[Adzzz]

Floyd UD all day long, IMO. He is the best in the world, whereas I feel Pac is a little one dimensional. It just so happens that most guys can't handle that dimension. Marquez showed what a good boxer can do against Pac, and Floyd is on another level to him again.

Nah I do agree, my head tells my Floyd will just deliver a boxing masterclass. Boxers beat brawlers and all that. I just have a gut feeling Pac will fight like a man possessed. However, as you say, lesser boxers than Money have been ok with Pacman.

What a fight though.

 

[Zarlak]

Floyd UD all day long, IMO. He is the best in the world, whereas I feel Pac is a little one dimensional. It just so happens that most guys can't handle that dimension. Marquez showed what a good boxer can do against Pac, and Floyd is on another level to him again.

But can Floyd defend against Pac when he goes into a frenzy? He's won't be fighting an opponent he can take his time with. I can't call that fight. I think Mayweather if I had to pick only because as you say, he's the best however if there's one person that could really throw him off balance and mess up a game plan I think it's Pacman.

 

[apotheosis]

Putting aside the injury, he was average. Of course, you have to factor in that his opponent outweighed him by over 2 stone, hits like a truck, has barely lost a round in years, and is widely regarded as the number one guy in the division. Something that seems to have escaped your notice. Still, why give Wlad any credit, it's much easier to shit on Haye.

No it didn't escape my notice Lance. I fully accept all the factors you have given as relevant reasons why it was a difficult fight for Haye.

But he should have had this fight 2 years ago except for injury, so to go into this one after all the shite he talked, without a noticeable gameplan other than to run round the outside of the ring, before launching a glaringly obvious right hand, is imo unacceptable.

I am taking nothing away from Vlad, he fought the way he always fights, methodically and with little variety behind his jab. However, Haye should have at least attempted to get on the inside to deliver his power punches, even if it meant taking a couple to deliver a few of his own.

He may still not have won, but at least he would have forced Vlad to operate under unfamiliar conditions. He didn't though, he allowed Vlad to fight to his strengths and offered precious little resistance. Haye got through a few times, but it was unsustained attacks, getting inside was the only real chance Haye had to use his power and hurt Klitschko.

TBH it is the only way any shorter fighter can combat an opponent with a superior reach. There really is no other way Haye could have won this fight, without simply hoping for a lucky punch, which is what he ended up hoping for.

That is my issue Lance, not that he lost, but the manner of his performance. It was a safety first, cowardly approach that right from the get go had a sobering inevitability about it. He should have gone for it, if not from the start then at least when he had little else too lose.

Haye is a better boxer than Vlad, but the tactics he used on Sat never gave him any chance to prove it. If he were to get a rematch, would he fight the same way, i doubt it somehow. So my analysis was not ignorant, it was well considered and the main points were true, though my disappointment may have over dramatised them a little.

 

[Spoony]

Of course it was safety first...otherwise he'd have got KO'd in the early rounds. And from what I've seen of Haye he looks like a counter attacking fighter, so an aggressive approach was never going to happen. His gameplan was pretty obvious - stay out of trouble and hope an overhead right connects. Most sane people knew he was far too small....the rest were simply wishful thinking. It's best he calls it a day, because he's got next to no chance of beating Vlad's bro.

 

[starman]

You write all that and then come out with this:

Haye is a better boxer than Vlad

First off, who is "Vlad"?? Vitali & Wladimir are two different people

Wlad is clearly the better boxer. Being elusive, fast and throwing shots from awkward angles does not attribute him being a better boxer, or whatever made you come to your conclusion. Haye doesn't even have a jab, ffs.

Wlad is a brilliant technician and has one of the best jabs there been, certainly amongst heavyweights. He is extremely underrated due to his boring style.

 

[apotheosis]

Of course it was safety first...otherwise he'd have got KO'd in the early rounds. And from what I've seen of Haye he looks like a counter attacking fighter, so an aggressive approach was never going to happen. His gameplan was pretty obvious - stay out of trouble and hope an overhead right connects. Most sane people knew he was far too small....the rest were simply wishful thinking. It's best he calls it a day, because he's got next to no chance of beating Vlad's bro.

Yet bigger than Holyfield................

 

[apotheosis]

You write all that and then come out with this:



First off, who is "Vlad"?? Vitali & Wladimir are two different people

Wlad is clearly the better boxer. Being elusive, fast and throwing shots from awkward angles does not attribute him being a better boxer, or whatever made you come to your conclusion. Haye doesn't even have a jab, ffs.

Wlad is a brilliant technician and has one of the best jabs there been, certainly amongst heavyweights. He is extremely underrated due to his boring style.

No he is underrated because he has not fought anyone of note. Great fighters become great only after beating other great fighters.

You are confusing better with more effective. It's not being fast or elusive or having more variety of punches that makes Haye better, it's having the skill to have a choice of options how he fights. Wlad is very effective but has a no frills traditional one dimensional Eastern European style.

I am not knocking him for that, but he can only box one way, he is nowhere near as effective fighting on the inside, which i personally feel is where Haye's superior skills and speed would have given him the advantage.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Yet bigger than Holyfield................

How did he do against super HW fighters again? Bowe and Lewis.

Spoony pretty much dealt with your last bout of stupidity.

 

[starman]

No he is underrated because he has not fought anyone of note. Great fighters become great only after beating other great fighters.

You are confusing better with more effective. It's not being fast or elusive or having more variety of punches that makes Haye better, it's having the skill to have a choice of options how he fights. Wlad is very effective but has a no frills traditional one dimensional Eastern European style.

I am not knocking him for that, but he can only box one way, he is nowhere near as effective fighting on the inside, which i personally feel is where Haye's superior skills and speed would have given him the advantage.

I am not saying whether Wlad is great or not, I am disputing his skills,which I think are far superior to Haye's. Ricardo Lopez is great, or considered a great boxer, yet he never beat any other "great" fighters, simply because he was born to a new division and a division the America's didn't care for, much like the current HW scene.

And I am not confusing anything, your basically saying being more spectacular is why Haye is a better boxer?Okdokey.

You clearly have never watched Wlad pre-Stewart, when he was a lot more reckless, the guy has tons of different punches in his artillery.

And you say hes not as good as Haye on the inside, just like Haye not be as good on the outside, and thats not because of Wlads reach, that because Haye has no jab.

 

[africanspur]

Anyone who says that Wladmir has only one dimension has clearly never watched his earlier fights. He has a lot of strings to his bow and is actually a very technically accomplished boxer. His problem was that he left himself too open and he has a poor chin and that he fights in a division where, even at its worst, people hit like jackhammers.

So he went from being a boxer who could knock you out very quickly but also get knocked out very quickly himself to a boxer who made up for those weaknesses by fighting from long distance and hitting you with his piston jab. He's made himself a durable champion and one who wears down his opponents and then knocks them out anyway.

Its not pretty but its effective. Keeps him a champion, preserves his looks and more importantly his brains.

 

[apotheosis]

How did he do against super HW fighters again? Bowe and Lewis.

Spoony pretty much dealt with your last bout of stupidity.

Holyfield lost twice against Bowe and won once, and drew and lost against Lewis and beat both George Foreman and Larry Holmes. Not bad considering according to you no smaller fighter can ever hope to hold his own against a bigger opponent.

No he didn't. He gave a credible analysis from a certain point of view, but it is far from definitive. Haye had the power to hurt Wlad, but didn't give himself a chance to show it because he stayed on the outside giving Wlad the chance to dominate the fight.

You may not agree with that but it is not stupid to suggest it. Going on the inside, negates Wlad's jab and offers Haye the chance to land more than single shots. Considering Haye's power was his only chance of winning, giving himself a better opportunity to unleash it, is surely a more logical tactic rather than simply running round the ring waiting for an inevitable points defeat. That is stupidity!

I concede that over 10 fights the advantage would show in favour of the larger man, but over 1 fight anything can happen and imo Haye's tactics never gave himself any real chance, that is all i am saying. You may think otherwise but you cannot say for certain what would have happened. Wlad has been floored before and could well have been again, or Haye may have got knocked out himself, all i am suggesting is the way he fought he never had any chance at all.

 

[apotheosis]

I am not saying whether Wlad is great or not, I am disputing his skills,which I think are far superior to Haye's. Ricardo Lopez is great, or considered a great boxer, yet he never beat any other "great" fighters, simply because he was born to a new division and a division the America's didn't care for, much like the current HW scene.

But that is why he is not a great, because he was in an unfashionable division, fighting in almost anonymity. How are Wlad's skills superior? He has no variety in his punches, there are no combinations, poor head movement, poor footwork, no variation between punching to the head and body. It is a couple of jabs followed by a right cross almost every single time. He is certainly no Ali that's for sure.

And I am not confusing anything, your basically saying being more spectacular is why Haye is a better boxer?Okdokey.

It's nothing to do with being spectacular, it is about having the adaptability to box by instinct, varying your attacks, confusing your opponent, with clever movement and unexpected combinations from a variety of angles.

You clearly have never watched Wlad pre-Stewart, when he was a lot more reckless, the guy has tons of different punches in his artillery.

Reckless he may have been, skilled i very much doubt. If he has such variety then why is there so little evidence of it. No uppercuts, no head to body variation, from what i saw against Haye not much idea really. When he got Haye close he was very poor at executing any type of shot. He just sets himself with the left to throw a right, as basic as it gets imo.

And you say hes not as good as Haye on the inside, just like Haye not be as good on the outside, and thats not because of Wlads reach, that because Haye has no jab.

Of course it's his reach. Do you think if Haye had had a 3 or 4 inch advantage he wouldn't have made use of his jab? I now feel like i am championing Haye, which i'm not and never intended too. I thought overall Klitschko thoroughly deserved the win and regardless of what Haye did Wlad probably still would have won, but i just felt Haye never asked enough questions of Wlad and never gave himself a chance by fighting Wlad's type of fight.

Imo he should have tried to get inside more and land 2 or 3 punches at least before going on his toes again. On the inside it would have been harder for Wlad's longer arms to match the speed of Haye. He could still have ran around the outside inbetween but it would have at least given Wlad something less predictable to worry about. That's all, many may not agree, but i have never seen a smaller man win a fight against someone with such a height and reach advantage, by fighting them on the outside as opposed to closer quarters.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Holyfield lost twice against Bowe and won once, and drew and lost against Lewis and beat both George Foreman and Larry Holmes. Not bad considering according to you no smaller fighter can ever hope to hold his own against a bigger opponent.

Except, of course, that I never said that. But by all means continue to make shit up.

No he didn't. He gave a credible analysis from a certain point of view, but it is far from definitive. Haye had the power to hurt Wlad, but didn't give himself a chance to show it because he stayed on the outside giving Wlad the chance to dominate the fight.

You may not agree with that but it is not stupid to suggest it. Going on the inside, negates Wlad's jab and offers Haye the chance to land more than single shots. Considering Haye's power was his only chance of winning, giving himself a better opportunity to unleash it, is surely a more logical tactic rather than simply running round the ring waiting for an inevitable points defeat. That is stupidity!

I concede that over 10 fights the advantage would show in favour of the larger man, but over 1 fight anything can happen and imo Haye's tactics never gave himself any real chance, that is all i am saying. You may think otherwise but you cannot say for certain what would have happened. Wlad has been floored before and could well have been again, or Haye may have got knocked out himself, all i am suggesting is the way he fought he never had any chance at all.

You are unbelievably naive if you think Haye didn't try the obvious "get on the inside" tactic. All of Wlad's opponents talk about doing it. Very few successfully manage it. I will point you to what Paulie Malignaggi had to say about the fight.

“I just got back from Germany yesterday. It was a big event, but the fight was a little dull. I actually thought David Haye gave a good effort, I don’t know what they wanted the guy to do. He was trying to set Klitschko up and trying to get Klitschko to commit.

Klitschko’s very good at what he does; he’s very disciplined and he won’t come out of his own shell. David tried to set him up in all kinds of ways; I don’t know what people where watching. I saw the fight live, with my own eyes, and David was trying to set him up in all kinds of ways it just wasn’t working. It’s more so you have to commend Wladimir Klitschko."

Boxingscene

 

[apotheosis]

Except, of course, that I never said that. But by all means continue to make shit up.

You are clearly implying it Lance, if not then what is your point? You have dismissed any criticism of Haye. Agreed with Spoony who said he was clearly too small to have any chance. Dismissed Holyfiled against SHW's. So what is your point?

You are unbelievably naive if you think Haye didn't try the obvious "get on the inside" tactic. All of Wlad's opponents talk about doing it. Very few successfully manage it. I will point you to what Paulie Malignaggi had to say about the fight.

Alright then by getting on the inside, i meant while still standing up! Not rolling around on the floor like a Barcelona DM any time he got within a yard. He managed to even get Wlad a point deducted by throwing himself to the floor every time a haymaker missed. His tactics were piss poor Lance, just deal with it, he didn't try hard enough and didn't risk enough to get on the inside.

Fair play to Malignaggi if that's how he saw it, but myself and others including Frank Warren saw it differently. We saw a big mouth who didn't have the balls to go to war to back up his pre fight predictions. If only he had the courage of a Hatton to back up his skills, then we might actually have a serious contender to the Klitschko brothers.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

You are clearly implying it Lance, if not then what is your point?

No, I am not. Stop making shit up. As for my point, it has remained the same since I made the mistake of replying to you. You are clueless.

You have dismissed any criticism of Haye. Agreed with Spoony who said he was clearly too small to have any chance. Dismissed Holyfiled against SHW's. So what is your point?

No, I haven't. Again, stop making shit up.

Alright then by getting on the inside, i meant while still standing up! Not rolling around on the floor like a Barcelona DM any time he got within a yard.

That was an obvious tactic to deal with Wlad grabbing him and putting his weight on top of him. Which he does in every fight. When he tried to do it, Haye took a knee. Do you require everything to be pointed out to you?

He managed to even get Wlad a point deducted by throwing himself to the floor every time a haymaker missed. His tactics were piss poor Lance, just deal with it, he didn't try hard enough and didn't risk enough to get on the inside.

There you go again. He wasn't allowed to execute his tactics because of what Wlad was doing. It was blatantly obvious.

Fair play to Malignaggi if that's how he saw it, but myself and others including Frank Warren saw it differently. We saw a big mouth who didn't have the balls to go to war to back up his pre fight predictions. If only he had the courage of a Hatton to back up his skills, then we might actually have a serious contender to the Klitschko brothers.

Frank Warren?? AKA The most bitter "person" in British boxing? That guy? Christ. Is there any level you won't stoop to? You have even been throwing around words like "cowardly."

It is embarrassing. I am now done with this, and you.

 

[Nanderson]

Pacquiao is a completely different fighter now than he was when he fought Marquez. He's going to KO Marquez in November. He has an excellent chance to beat Floyd, who has slowed somewhat. Floyd will still be slight favourite but right now I think Pacquiao edges it. Too busy, quick and powerful not to land on Floyd. Floyd is the better boxer, but Pacquiao is far from one dimensional. Bit of an idiotic thing to say, really.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Pacquiao is a completely different fighter now than he was when he fought Marquez. He's going to KO Marquez in November. He has an excellent chance to beat Floyd, who has slowed somewhat. Floyd will still be slight favourite but right now I think Pacquiao edges it. Too busy, quick and powerful not to land on Floyd. Floyd is the better boxer, but Pacquiao is far from one dimensional. Bit of an idiotic thing to say, really.

I am frankly SHOCKED that you would think that.

 

[Zarlak]

'Even Frank Warren agrees with me!'

That's like saying that cheating on your missus is okay because Ashley Cole agrees with you.

 

[Deleted 20801]

Mayweather all day, week and year long. He's in another class to any boxer alive. As much as I respect and like Manny, I can't see it happening for him, Floyd is the best there is.

 

[anything about now]

Floyd UD all day long, IMO. He is the best in the world, whereas I feel Pac is a little one dimensional. It just so happens that most guys can't handle that dimension. Marquez showed what a good boxer can do against Pac, and Floyd is on another level to him again.

I'll bet you anything that Pac will win via a split decision. Floyd will display his usual defensive masterclass but Pac will get a few shots through. It will be a close fight and i'm almost positive they will try to milk them for a couple more rematches. It's going to be one of the biggest fights in our lifetime.

I'm a PBF fan myself, but i can't see any rematches if Floyd wins, whereas if his record is ruined, he'll do anything to make up for it.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

I'll bet you anything that Pac will win via a split decision. Floyd will display his usual defensive masterclass but Pac will get a few shots through. It will be a close fight and i'm almost positive they will try to milk them for a couple more rematches. It's going to be one of the biggest fights in our lifetime.

I'm a PBF fan myself, but i can't see any rematches if Floyd wins, whereas if his record is ruined, he'll do anything to make up for it.

If it happens, you're on.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

Surely if we've learnt anything in Boxing over the years it's never to bet against Mayweather?

 

[KM]

 

[ha_rooney]

 

[Rooney1987]

Just heard on Radio 1 news Khan/Mayweather fight maybe on next year any truth to this.

 

[ha_rooney]

There have been a few rumours of Khan-Mayweather for several months. I'm not a boxing expert, but I think Floyd would destroy Khan. Besides boxing needs Pacquiao-Mayweather to happen, so Amir can bugger off.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Khan needs to concentrate on getting past Judah first.

 

[Adzzz]

khan vs Mayweather would be horrendous for Khan.

 

[The Black Pearl]

Khan would seriously need to bulk up for that fight if it was to take place, he looks a lot lighter than Mayweather although saying that he is taller. Still wouldn't stand a chance though.

 

[Rooney24]

Former world champion Ricky Hatton arranges a news conference for 1300 BST where he says he will make a "major announcement".

For God sake I hope this isn't for a comeback, but cant think its going to be much else!

 

[Rado_N]

He's moving in to Sumo.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Former world champion Ricky Hatton arranges a news conference for 1300 BST where he says he will make a "major announcement".

For God sake I hope this isn't for a comeback, but cant think its going to be much else!

I hope not. He could very well end up getting seriously hurt.

 

[Deleted 20801]

Just heard on Radio 1 news Khan/Mayweather fight maybe on next year any truth to this.

What?!

Why on earth would Khan take that fight? He will never be able to beat Mayweather, ever. It would be complete humiliation for him.

 

[Eyepopper]

Jaysus, surely Hatton wont try a comeback...

Might have to be in the heavyweight division if he does

(probably going to announce his official retirement)

 

[Deleted 20801]

I'm not sure what's more dangerous. Khan taking on Mayweather or Hatton getting back in the ring.

Both things should be made illegal.

 

[Adzzz]

Hatton vs Khan? Hope not, cheap way of raising Khans profile. Ricky would have destroyed him 4/5 years ago.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Hatton vs Khan? Hope not, cheap way of raising Khans profile. Ricky would have destroyed him 4/5 years ago.

Nah. Khan has Judah next and that is no certainty. Then he should be gunning for Bradley to unify the division. After that, the plan is to move to 147.

Hatton would need numerous tune up fights before taking on anyone at that level.