The RedCafe Boxing Thread

Habs said:
Agree completely with what you've said. Just because you're the best of a shit bunch of heavyweights doesn't automatically make you world class. I like AJ, he's a decent fighter but nobody seems to call it like it is with him and the hype around him is unreal. He's skills are average at best, poor head movement and barely throws any feints, he's getting by mainly because of his physical attributes. He has improved from earlier on in his career which he deserves credit for, but the division is really poor. He almost lost to a 40 year old Klitschko, seriously hurt by Whyte and Povetkin for me gave him a serious test. None of these guys at those stages of their careers were world class heavyweights, especially if youre comparing them to the names you guys are throwing out.

Someone mentioned above that they would've loved to see Ali/Forman against Joshua, he would've got absolutely murdered by any of the top 5/6 heavyweights of that era.
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Sound man, I like AJ but the hype around him is absolutely crazy. He just doesn't have the skills of the all time greats. The only thing I disagree with your post is that he's likely beat Ali and Fraizer simply because he is huge compared to them. They would likely be Cruiser weights in modern terms. However as a boxer P4P he would be destroyed by those guys and by the likes of Lewis as well. I'll admit that I'm a little salty about his Gold medal when he clearly lost to Erislandy Savon but after the Conlan result I've come to accept that amateur boxing is as corrupt as the professional sport.

I really just think that being the best in the World doesn't necessarily make you World Class (even though that sounds silly). Also at this point AJ hasn't yet beat his 2 biggest threats so he hasn't even achieved that status yet.
 
giorno said:
Technique means jack once he lands the right hand. And as poor as his technique, he throws from weird angles and his speed and reach give him a chance to land it on anybody. And AJ's defence is poor.
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I don't get why this is so hard to understand. Wilder is unconventional and doesn't conform to purist definitions of how proper fighters are supposed to punch. That may not work for most fighters but it does for him.
 
TMDaines said:
He’s only 20-odd fights into his career and has beaten everybody he could, including the best of the past 15 years and an all-time great. Give him a chance. He could potentially have Wilder, Fury, Whyte and Usyk in the next two years. We’ll review then.
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This and the heavyweight division desperately needs a star.
 
giorno said:
Technique means jack once he lands the right hand. And as poor as his technique, he throws from weird angles and his speed and reach give him a chance to land it on anybody. And AJ's defence is poor.
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Raoul said:
I don't get why this is so hard to understand. Wilder is unconventional and doesn't conform to purist definitions of how proper fighters are supposed to punch. That may not work for most fighters but it does for him.
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Technique means a lot against quality opposition though, don't you think? There's no point in all that knock out power, if you are getting picked to pieces. Fact is, Wilder has fought absolutely no-one worth mentioning. The most skilled boxer he came up against was an out of shape Ortiz, who very nearly took him out. An unorthodox style is all well and good, and I have nothing against it whatsoever - it makes for entertainment -, but his foot work, head movement and defence are just downright terrible. His shitty punching technique is the least of his problems, considering he generates so much power from it. The bigger worry is how wide open he leaves himself half the time, and his glass chin.

In a Wilder vs Joshua fight, Wilder's entire hope of winning rests on connecting with one big shot. If he doesn't land it, Joshua will certainly outbox him, because he's a much better fighter. Personally, I really want to see a Joshua - Wilder fight as it has the potential for a real slug fest. And should be great fun. However, I think Fury is going to frustrate the hell out of Wilder, until he starts swinging ever more recklessly, leaving himself completely open to the counter.

For the record, I am not a purist at all. I'm happy to be proven wrong by Wilder, but for my money, what I've seen of him so far, he's a complete chancer.
 
I don’t think anyone is talking about Joshua as if he is an all time great... he’s just getting a lot of support because he’s a British heavyweight champion and justifiably considered the man to beat in the division right now. He also looks the part and comes across well.

Is anybody even saying that he isn’t beatable? Lewis was an all time great but he still got knocked out by McCall and Rahman. Wladimir got knocked out by Sanders and Brewster... that’s heavyweight boxing and part of the attraction.

Also, the division isn’t just lower quality now... it hasn’t been strong since the 90’s.
 
He's great entertainment, isn't that what we all want? To be excited by the action? I find some of the comments around AJ just bizarre tbh he knocks people out that's what heavyweights are supposed to do, thats why we all love em. It's high risk and high reward but we get to see brutal finishes like last night. I'll watch the smaller guys to appreciate the aesthetic but the big boys are there to bring the fireworks and he does it.

The wilder and fury fights will again be fantastic entertainment and I can't wait to see them, both fascinating fights for different reasons.
 
The lengths many people go to, to discredit Joshua is a bit silly. Of course he’s beatable. Nobody would suggest otherwise. But he knocks blokes out for fun. 23 fights in and he’s disposed of Klitschko, Parker and Povetkin. He’s clearly game for any fight and I think it’s quite hard to knock the guy.
 
pocco said:
Povetkin visibly tired and was trying to win with single big shots, which became a bit predictable. Earlier on he was putting punches together and swarming him a lot more, which brought results. If Povetkin was also 28, I reckon he could have beat AJ. At 39 he couldn't keep up the tempo.

These last few fights just make me think even more that AJ is very beatable. The only question is whether there's anyone with the quality, outside of Fury who I think schools him, or Wilder who could spark him if he lands.
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I totally get what your saying mate

But again like I said, he can only fight and adjust his fight to whats in front of him at that time

He had a 39 year old Povetkin infront of him, not a 28 year old Povetkin, how do you know AJ's performance last night in those 1st rounds would have panned out exactly the same if it was against a 28 year old Povetkin to the point Povetkin could have beaten him??? you don't know that mate

It would have been a totally different fight preparation wise.

Job done for AJ
 
ZupZup said:
I don’t think anyone is talking about Joshua as if he is an all time great... he’s just getting a lot of support because he’s a British heavyweight champion and justifiably considered the man to beat in the division right now. He also looks the part and comes across well.

Is anybody even saying that he isn’t beatable? Lewis was an all time great but he still got knocked out by McCall and Rahman. Wladimir got knocked out by Sanders and Brewster... that’s heavyweight boxing and part of the attraction.

Also, the division isn’t just lower quality now... it hasn’t been strong since the 90’s.
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You make a great point, there hasn't been a heavyweight fighter in history who hasn't been at least sparked by an opponent's punch. It's a risk which comes with the territory. Not that I'm saying Joshua is an all-time great or anything, but I think criticism of him is a little bit overboard. He's clearly the most impressive heavyweight right now.
 
I thought he was poor last night until the finishing round but you can't knock his ability to negotiate a crisis. He's had sticky patches in 2-3 fights and always found a way to win.

Sky's arse-licking of everything he does is cringeworthy.
 
Just as annoying as the people that over rate AJ to the hilt (mainly only the media tbf) are the people so upset by the coverage be gets that they discredit him to the extent it ruins their argument.

Joshua is obviously a very good heavyweight (even if he is heavily reliant on his power) and he's still only very young. He's beaten everyone he's fought and mostly via knockout. Even when we say that the majority he's fought aren't all time greats, they've still been among the top of the decision currently.

Even if he beats the likes of Wilder he won't get the credit he should from some. It isn't Joshua's fault that he can't go back in time and tight Prime Tyson, Kiltch, Hollyfield etc etc.

He's a young, entertaining fighter that knocks out opponents and has shown he's vulnerable to getting hurt himself. Perfect entertainment.
 
Kag said:
The lengths many people go to, to discredit Joshua is a bit silly. Of course he’s beatable. Nobody would suggest otherwise. But he knocks blokes out for fun. 23 fights in and he’s disposed of Klitschko, Parker and Povetkin. He’s clearly game for any fight and I think it’s quite hard to knock the guy.
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I think the no mentioning of Fury suggests he’s not quite game for any fight.

It is a bit weird how every win gets caveated with a ‘this is such a shit heavyweight division’ though. I personally quite like all 3 of Fury, Wilder, and Joshua.
 
RedFish said:
Arghh, got to go to work...hope I don't hear any spoilers before I get back home. Predicting Joshua KO round 7.
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Oh yeah baby , 5 grand !!!! Well, I don't bet but I wish I had :lol:
Joshua is so vulnerable, he flirts with danger and you just never know. I thought he was a couple of heavy shots away from being out down in the 2nd. Anyway, feck that. Onwards to becoming undisputed!! Or maybe not!
 
endless_wheelies said:
I have this feeling too. Then I think he'll beat Joshua. Just can't imagine anyone ever being able to land one on him, everyone who's sparred with him says the same.
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Unless they've got the mad skills of Steve Cunningham...
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Joshua said he wants the winner of Fury - Wilder.
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I don't think he did. He said he wants Wilder.

I see fast Eddie is trying to justify not mentioning Fury by saying he's 'boring'. Of course everyone would much rather see a rematch with Dillian Whyte - not.
 
G-manc said:
I don't think he did. He said he wants Wilder.

I see fast Eddie is trying to justify not mentioning Fury by saying he's 'boring'. Of course everyone would much rather see a rematch with Dillian Whyte - not.
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Yes he did. Then when asked who his preference was, he said Wilder. Hearn is right, Fury is a relatively boring fighter to watch.
 
ivaldo said:
Yes he did. Then when asked who his preference was, he said Wilder. Hearn is right, Fury is a relatively boring fighter to watch.
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It's a blatant swerve and totally irrelevant.

Does he honestly think people would rather see a rematch with Dillian Whyte than Joshua fight Fury?
 
G-manc said:
It's a blatant swerve and totally irrelevant.

Does he honestly think people would rather see a rematch with Dillian Whyte than Joshua fight Fury?
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It's not a blatant swerve. He literally said he'd fight the winner out of Fury and Wilder. What part aren't you getting?

Does that automatically make it a more entertaining fight? People would prefer to see Wilder v AJ.
 
ivaldo said:
It's not a blatant swerve. He literally said he'd fight the winner out of Fury and Wilder. What part aren't you getting?

Does that automatically make it a more entertaining fight? People would prefer to see Wilder v AJ.
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I meant on Hearn's part.

Parker is like watching paint dry and he made that fight and the only half decent fights Kiltshcko were in was when he was getting dropped.
 
G-manc said:
I meant on Hearn's part.

Parker is like watching paint dry and he made that fight and the only half decent fights Kiltshcko were in was when he was getting dropped.
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So what are you disagreeing with? Are you telling me Fury is a more exciting to watch than Whyte or Wilder?
 
I don't get why people are using this fight to draw hypotheses for Wilder. What stood before that fight about a potential clash between the two is exactly the same as after and nothing that happened last night changes that.

There's been no mention of how Povetkin set his shots up and the use of footwork and switching of pivot to change the angulation of attack, both of which Wilder is literally incapable of doing, so why would you just conclude on the end-outcome of a shot when the means to set them up are completely disparate between someone like Wilder vis-a-vis Povetkin?

I'm not a Joshua fan, but you can't knock him for moving in a straight line and taking on all-comers whilst amassing experience and an ever-improving set of scalps. None of these are impressive fighters, but Joshua is the one making the most legitimate moves and not ducking opponents (Wilder) or picking and choosing when to dip in and out of the sport (Fury) and instead of knocking him for what he does or does not do once in the ring, credit should be given for him being in there in the first place to take on all that scrutiny, whilst ultimately legitimately trying to improve himself. You can't blame that on a hype train, as from a writing perspective, he is the one who deserves absolutely all the credit for the path he's taking on.
 
ivaldo said:
So what are you disagreeing with? Are you telling me Fury is a more exciting to watch than Whyte or Wilder?
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I don't think Whyte is any more entertaining - no. Wilder perhaps because he can punch but he's terrible on the eye.

I don't understand why Dillian Whyte is even in the equation - he's already been beaten by Joshua who has improved ten-fold since then whist he was lumbering around like a drunk to see out his last fight.
 
G-manc said:
I don't think Whyte is any more entertaining - no. Wilder perhaps because he can punch but he's terrible on the eye.

I don't understand why Dillian Whyte is even in the equation - he's already been beaten by Joshua who has improved ten-fold since then whist he was lumbering around like a drunk to see out his last fight.
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How on Earth can you not find Whyte a more entertaining boxer? He actually goes for knockouts, likes to trade.

Because he's a significantly improved boxer. There's a reason Wilder ducks him.
 
Fortitude said:
I don't get why people are using this fight to draw hypotheses for Wilder. What stood before that fight about a potential clash between the two is exactly the same as after and nothing that happened last night changes that.

There's been no mention of how Povetkin set his shots up and the use of footwork and switching of pivot to change the angulation of attack, both of which Wilder is literally incapable of doing, so why would you just conclude on the end-outcome of a shot when the means to set them up are completely disparate between someone like Wilder vis-a-vis Povetkin?

I'm not a Joshua fan, but you can't knock him for moving in a straight line and taking on all-comers whilst amassing experience and an ever-improving set of scalps. None of these are impressive fighters, but Joshua is the one making the most legitimate moves and not ducking opponents (Wilder) or picking and choosing when to dip in and out of the sport (Fury) and instead of knocking him for what he does or does not do once in the ring, credit should be given for him being in there in the first place to take on all that scrutiny, whilst ultimately legitimately trying to improve himself. You can't blame that on a hype train, as from a writing perspective, he is the one who deserves absolutely all the credit for the path he's taking on.
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Yup. Also can’t knock him for the division being a bit shit.....it’s true, but it’s used as a stick to beat him with, as if it’s his fault
 
I thought Joshua looked pretty good
The neagtivity towards him is due to the fact many (casuals) underestimated Povetkin.
Defending against Povetkin trying to knock you out from the start is always going to be difficult and was bound to have some succuss due to the awkwardness of his punches (Spoilers like Wlad are the only ones that can truley shut down fighters like that from the start). You could see Joshua making adjustments and controlling the distance as the fight went on (yes Povetkin was tiring a bit, but that was also down to Joshua body work).

And the finish, thats some serious power turning it on like that.
 
Fury has blocked Joshua on twitter and deleted all his instagram rantings from last night about them wanting nothing to do with him. :lol::lol:

Obviously going to come out with “I’m not giving them the time of day because they don’t want anything to do with the gypsy king.. the lineal heavyweight champion. The real heavyweight champion.....:boring:”
 
Joshua looked to me like he was biding his time somewhat. Povetkin looked good and I felt won 3 perhaps even 4 rounds but Joshua looked like he was in control and confident about what he’d do. He’s maturing as a fighter and trying to become more complete. He’s still a work in progress.

I’m seeing a number of people saying “If he fought Wilder like that...”, well styles make fights and you prepare for the opponents different and according to their style. Wilder has poor footwork, average defense, can’t fight backing up and isn’t a thinking fighter. He has poor Boxing IQ chances are Joshua being that patient and deliberate just boxed him too easily and both possessing similar power, similar chins and similar hearts it’s logical that Joshua would set him up for a KO as he’d likely hurt Wilder first.

Wilder isn’t a guy you go toe to toe with because that’s his chance and he is very wild and will swing like crazy.

Fury if he can get back to something of his best is a far bigger style problem than anyone in the division. I do think Fury will stall out and perhaps not even take a Joshua fight though.
 
Inter Yer Nan said:
Joshua looked to me like he was biding his time somewhat. Povetkin looked good and I felt won 3 perhaps even 4 rounds but Joshua looked like he was in control and confident about what he’d do. He’s maturing as a fighter and trying to become more complete. He’s still a work in progress.

I’m seeing a number of people saying “If he fought Wilder like that...”, well styles make fights and you prepare for the opponents different and according to their style. Wilder has poor footwork, average defense, can’t fight backing up and isn’t a thinking fighter. He has poor Boxing IQ chances are Joshua being that patient and deliberate just boxed him too easily and both possessing similar power, similar chins and similar hearts it’s logical that Joshua would set him up for a KO as he’d likely hurt Wilder first.

Wilder isn’t a guy you go toe to toe with because that’s his chance and he is very wild and will swing like crazy.

Fury if he can get back to something of his best is a far bigger style problem than anyone in the division. I do think Fury will stall out and perhaps not even take a Joshua fight though.
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Paulie Mallignaggi said in the UK commentary after the knockout that Joshua spent the fight jabbing Povetkin in the stomach, eating away at his energy and taking the attention away from his head and then when the moment arrived.......
 
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