7th.
He has no excuses, and was very lucky to make it as long as he did as manager.
The Overlap | Fan Debate Christmas Special
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He has no excuses, and was very lucky to make it as long as he did as manager.
I agree, but I also think the players have to shoulder some of that blame. They basically sulked because Moyes wasn’t Sir Alex. It had to be a big name that took over, Jose or someone. Little old David Moyes was never going to command the respect of the serial winners in that dressing room.
It could have been salvaged even after Moyes, but Van Gaal and Woodward chose to do a madness and clear out basically the entire team so they could sign Rojo, Falcao, Di Maria, Darmian etc.
He's an average manager.
And to be fair he actually spent more in his 11 months at the club than Ferguson ever did in a 12 month period.
How so?
It isn't though, a genuine top manager given the time and resources Van Gaal, Jose, Ole or especially Ten Hag were given would have did better. We've carried on with an outdated club structure expecting managers to be Alex Ferguson.
Moyes was promised Bale, Fabregas, Ronaldo, and a few others... and got nobody. At the very end, they brought over his emotional support animal, Fellaini. Moyes should have walked away then and there, because the writing was already on the wall, and he was never going to succeed (or even be given the time). It's like if you hired a builder to make a house for you, and then when he shows up, you give him nothing but sliced cheese to work with.
Promised what now?
I always thought that Moyes has been a very good manager at Premier League level, but was simply not good enough for the Man Utd job, especially following on from Fergie.
And clearly David Gill leaving at the same time after 10 years as chief executive didn’t help.
The fact that his Man Utd team in 2013/2014 were 7th (both by the time he was sacked at and at the end of the season), while his Everton team in 2012/2013 were 6th (again both at that same stage of the season and by the end of it) was telling.
With all due respect to Everton, clearly when a manager leaves them for Man Utd, they shouldn’t be leading them to a lower Premier League position even if it’s by one place.
And clearly David Gill leaving at the same time after 10 years as chief executive didn’t help.
The fact that his Man Utd team in 2013/2014 were 7th (both by the time he was sacked at and at the end of the season), while his Everton team in 2012/2013 were 6th (again both at that same stage of the season and by the end of it) was telling.
With all due respect to Everton, clearly when a manager leaves them for Man Utd, they shouldn’t be leading them to a lower Premier League position even if it’s by one place.
Considering up until that point the club had never spent more than around £50m in one window. On what planet were we signing Ronaldo, Bale and Fabregas in one window. He wasn't promised anything, that was his list of (unrealistic) transfer targets.
It would be like Amorim rocking up and saying I want to sign Haaland, Mbappe and DeJong next summer.
I disagree, the job as a manager is to get the players to perform. Yes a lot of the players were on their way down but not from champions to 7th. Some of the stories about him in the job (taking the players to train in a park) and nearly causing a stampede on tour were just ridiculous and basically told the players that the job is way too big for him.
If you watch this podcast Moyes says the club did as much as they could with Bale and Fabregas... Fabregas told them that he'd sign if he didn't start the first game of the season and they pushed as hard as they could on Bale and ultimately he wanted to go to Madrid. Nobody knows the exact truth on Ronaldo but that most likely fell apart when SAF left.
The big mistake was sticking to Fabregas and Bale when both had preferred outcomes that weren't United. That's on Moyes as much as Woodward or the club.
That alone disqualified him for the job. Fabregas was an unlikely possibility, the rest pipe dreams. He also thought a 6 year contract meant he would get 6 years irrespective of results. Absolute delusional. Ultimately, he is just a mid table to Europaleague manager at best.
Who was to blame for not selling Rooney and getting Mata in the summer? We eventually bought Mata, while we had to endure Rooney till 2017. That move probably cost us around 100 million. Thanks Moyes and Ed.
It's often repeated but who at the club wanted to sell Rooney?
Ferguson certainly didn't, Gill I don't know but I doubt it. Moyes and Wooodward obviously didn't want to sell him. People seem to forget at the time it was Rooney who wanted to leave, not the other way around.
Moyes was not even on my list of people I wanted to take over after Fergie. Even with Bale and Fabregas the wheels would have come off before too long, but the fall would have been more gradual. Either way, he was the wrong man for the job - and - they almost guaranteed an early failure by promising certain superstars and delivering... Fellaini.
I didn't say the club wanted to let him go. That was the mistake that cost us millions. It is not entirely on Moyes. Definitely Woodward has the biggest share. But any manager if an offer that good arrives, should insist selling him.
Well in that case then no one was to blame for not letting him go then, if no one at the club wanted to sell him.
It’s a bit of both. Yeah it’s his job to motivate them ultimately, but if the players were playing to the top of their abilities, they wouldn’t have finished 7th. The buck stops with Moyes, and he rightly lost his job, but the players still threw the towel in.
Is this true?
I always thought Fergie set it up to move him on, knowing his best days were behind him. Or is my memory wrong there?
Maybe Fergie did, maybe Fergie didn't. I don't think there's any concrete evidence and certainly no one ever mentioned it.
I think it's people just idolizing Fergie.
Are we going to assume that the kitman has the same voice as the manager then? Moyes had a voice but he didn't understand that Rooney was rapidly declining. So how come the manager don't have any share of blame if he doesn't understand that his player is not up to the standards and don't push for his sale?
No,no,no, don't question the players.
As I've said it's often repeated on here but its a myth. It was Rooney who wanted to leave. Ferguson and the club seemed adamant they wouldn't let him leave. Not the other way round.
You've lost me mate.
Rooney had just had a good season in 2012-13. Why would Moyes just in the door push to sell Uniteds biggest star?
That season consistently over the course of it. United were very successful against the bottom 10 sides. But as I remember we only won 2 out of 18 games vs the other top half teams.
So when we had the vastly superior players we more often than not won. But when the teams were closer and tactics and management was a factor we were more often than not out thought and outclassed tactically.
So did the players just throw the towel in, in August? Because I don't think we won our first game against a top 10 side until I believe November.
Do you not think that points to us having a manager out of his depth?
Fair enough - in hindsight we should’ve moved him on and rebuilt properly
In hindsight we should have done a lot of things. Hiring Moyes being the first of many bad decisions.
For what it's worth I still can't figure out what people's problem with Rooney was back then. Yes he'd declined but was still a very productive player.
12-13 - 16/14 G/A 37 Games
13/14 - 19/20 G/A 40 Games
14/15 - 14/06 G/A 37 Games
15/16- 15/05 G/A 42 Games
109 Goals and Assists in 156 games isn't bad in my book for a declining player.
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When did I say we didn’t have a manager out of his depth?
To be fair I'm asking a question not making a statement.
You did say the players threw in the towel, (considering how poor we were against decent teams thot whole season) at what point of the season did that happen in your opinion?
Hard to say, the back to back home defeats to Newcastle and everton stick in the mind though. I think that’s when a lot of fans turned as well, myself included. A few other results as well, back to back home drubbings off city and Liverpool, 3-0 each. We just looked like we’d given up.
The point at which Moyes should have been sacked but in what became a United tradition we allowed him to stumble on.
For me none of those stick out as particularly bad performances in the context of that season. We were similarly inept every time we came up against any sort of decent side right from the first game of the season. Which to me doesn't really point to a problem on the players side, it's not like they threw the towel in and gave up on Moyes in September, when we lost 2 games to Liverpool and City in a fortnight.
This was our results that season against the top 10 from another thread, 3 wins from 18 games. Abysmal:
Form vs Top 10 & Bottom 10
01 MU 0 - 0 Chelsea-----------------01 MU 4 - 1 Swansea City
02 MU 0 - 1 Liverpool----------------02 MU 2 - 0 Crystal Palace
03 MU 1 - 4 Manchester City---------03 MU 1 - 2 West Bromwich Albion
04 MU 1 - 1 Southampton------------04 MU 2 - 1 Sunderland
05 MU 3 - 2 Stoke City---------------05 MU 3 - 1 Fulham
06 MU 1 - 0 Arsenal------------------06 MU 2 - 2 Cardiff City
07 MU 2 - 2 Tottenham--------------07 MU 3 - 0 Aston Villa
08 MU 0 - 1 Everton-----------------08 MU 3 - 1 West Ham United
09 MU 0 - 1 Newcastle United-------09 MU 3 - 2 Hull City
10 MU 1 - 2 Tottenham--------------10 MU 1 - 0 Norwich City
11 MU 1 - 3 Chelsea-----------------11 MU 2 - 0 Swansea City
12 MU 1 - 2 Stoke City--------------12 MU 2 - 0 Cardiff City
13 MU 0 - 0 Arsenal-----------------13 MU 2 - 2 Fulham
14 MU 0 - 3 Liverpool----------------14 MU 2 - 0 Crystal Palace
15 MU 0 - 3 Manchester City--------15 MU 3 - 0 West Brom
16 MU 4 - 0 Newcastle----------------16 MU 2 - 0 West Ham
17 MU 0 - 2 Everton---------------------17 MU 4 - 1 Aston Villa
18 MU 1 - 1 Southampton-----------18 MU 4 - 0 Norwich
----------------------------------------------------19 MU 0 - 1 Sunderland
----------------------------------------------------20 MU 3 - 1 Hull City
P: 18 W: 03 D: 05 L: 10------------------P: 20 W: 16 D: 02 L: 02
GF: 16 GA: 28 GD: -12-------------------GF: 48 GA: 15 GD: +33
14 PTS From possible 54 PTS------------50 PTS From possible 60 PTS
01 MU 0 - 0 Chelsea-----------------01 MU 4 - 1 Swansea City
02 MU 0 - 1 Liverpool----------------02 MU 2 - 0 Crystal Palace
03 MU 1 - 4 Manchester City---------03 MU 1 - 2 West Bromwich Albion
04 MU 1 - 1 Southampton------------04 MU 2 - 1 Sunderland
05 MU 3 - 2 Stoke City---------------05 MU 3 - 1 Fulham
06 MU 1 - 0 Arsenal------------------06 MU 2 - 2 Cardiff City
07 MU 2 - 2 Tottenham--------------07 MU 3 - 0 Aston Villa
08 MU 0 - 1 Everton-----------------08 MU 3 - 1 West Ham United
09 MU 0 - 1 Newcastle United-------09 MU 3 - 2 Hull City
10 MU 1 - 2 Tottenham--------------10 MU 1 - 0 Norwich City
11 MU 1 - 3 Chelsea-----------------11 MU 2 - 0 Swansea City
12 MU 1 - 2 Stoke City--------------12 MU 2 - 0 Cardiff City
13 MU 0 - 0 Arsenal-----------------13 MU 2 - 2 Fulham
14 MU 0 - 3 Liverpool----------------14 MU 2 - 0 Crystal Palace
15 MU 0 - 3 Manchester City--------15 MU 3 - 0 West Brom
16 MU 4 - 0 Newcastle----------------16 MU 2 - 0 West Ham
17 MU 0 - 2 Everton---------------------17 MU 4 - 1 Aston Villa
18 MU 1 - 1 Southampton-----------18 MU 4 - 0 Norwich
----------------------------------------------------19 MU 0 - 1 Sunderland
----------------------------------------------------20 MU 3 - 1 Hull City
P: 18 W: 03 D: 05 L: 10------------------P: 20 W: 16 D: 02 L: 02
GF: 16 GA: 28 GD: -12-------------------GF: 48 GA: 15 GD: +33
14 PTS From possible 54 PTS------------50 PTS From possible 60 PTS
Your memory wasn't wrong. By the end of the season, Van Persie was clearly the number 9 and Shinji Kagawa was improving and showing what he can do as the 10. Fergie didn't want to make the decision though as he felt it should be left to Moyes to decide.
That was a few years before that Rooney pushed to move and Fergie played a blinder to turn it around and keep him.
It was later on Fergie was setting it up so the next manager could sell him if he wanted.
Moyes instead double downed on keeping him.
People see that little Moyes interview and still try and defend himm
Oh he needed more time, oh if only he'd got Ronaldo, Bale and Fabregas. That might have got us to 6th!
Oh he needed more time, oh if only he'd got Ronaldo, Bale and Fabregas. That might have got us to 6th!
This is a stretch.
If we had Gill, who understood football much better than Woodward, the new managers would've had a chance.
Instead we had Woodward and his kamikaze plans.
What do you mean?
No this was in 2013 mate, as I said it's a myth that Ferguson or anyone at the club were trying to offload him.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/22502958
No one would have fared any better with dithering Dave than Woodward did.
Though I suspect Gill wouldn't have let Van Gaal take a chainsaw to the squad and make a complete clusterfeck of it.
I don’t think it’s a stretch at all. Just largely forgotten about in the years that have since passed.
Gill did not adequately prepare the club for the transition from Ferguson to a new manager. That’s clear as day.
To be fair I think things would have been different had Gill A, had more notice and B been staying in the role as CEO. He'd talked many times about the profile of manager he'd go after to replace Ferguson and it was basically everything Moyes was not. The Glazers fecked up letting Fergie pick his successor. And if we're being honest while he earned to go out however he wanted SAF put the club in a bit of a tight spot by leaving it March to tell the club he was retiring.