I'm on board for that one, WAR Crocop!
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I'm on board for that one, WAR Crocop!
More like an 8 year diet. I doubt he could realistically cut to middleweight at this stage and maintain a half decent challenge against a half decent fighter.
Styles do make fighters alright. I can see Maynard beating Edgar again. I don't want to see it happen, nor do I think the UFC will, but I can see Maynard taking him down in every round and keeping him there. I'd expect Penn to beat Maynard 9 times out of 10.
I was very disappointed with Penn last night. He kept making the same mistakes over and over again. It was a woeful performance. He is the kind of guy I could just see retiring because he is not the best anymore.
Joe Lauzon was fantastic last night. I'd love to see him face another top contender.
Toney's done with the UFC.
Pathetic excuse for a fight.
Fair play to Randy though. He didn't do anything silly. 47 years old too
Fair play to Randy though. He didn't do anything silly. 47 years old too
As far as I knew it was a 1 fight thing
This is part of the reason boxing people don't take MMA guys seriously. You are seriously classing last night as a victory for MMA? Having said an even bigger victory I'm guessing so and it seems a dumb ass thing to say.
Dana White knew what he was doing putting him in there and knew it wouldn't be competitive so he need to put any angle he could on it ie Boxing vs MMA. For goodness sake they even doctored his press pictures to give the impression that he had been working hard.
Let me clear up some things before you cum on your keyboard lol
1) that was the heaviest Toney ever fought at and he was obviously out of shape. however "UFC analysts" kept repeating that Toney is at the best shape of his career.
2) Toney was never known for a KO punch but "UFC ...analysts" kept repeating that Toney has a "boxing power punch"
3) Toney is probably one of the most talented fighters but his accomplishments will probably not merit a HOF election but "UFC analysts" kept repeating that Toney is "one of the greatest boxers of all time"
4) Toney held a title at three weight classes (middle, supermiddle, cruiser) but "UFC analysts" kept repeating that Toney is a "five division, 11-time boxing champion"
5) Toney defeated a old, shot Evander Holyfield but "UFC analysts" only mention Toney KO'ing Holyfield without regard for the condition of Holyfield during the fight.
Toney is known for slacking off during training and with just 9 months in MMA if you didn't see this coming or class this as a victory you may as well go kick a kid in the nuts and call yourself a tough guy.
Put an MMA guy in a boxing ring, the same thing would happen... they are two different sports.
He wouldnt need to. Anderson could make light heavy. The question is, could Toney? And... No probably not. So catchweight.
By the way the only reason I said Anderson Silva is because he has the best head movement in mma. So he could slip some of Toney's shots and pose problems on his feet.
Unfortunately, White is not stupid enough to allow that to happen.
Anderson Silva wanted to fight RJJ, seeing how shot Roy is now there is a chance Dana may let him!
Even this version of Roid would knock him into Bolivian.
I didn’t think it was a victory for MMA, that’s just the spin Dana would have in perhaps giving Toney a shot at someone else, which obviously he isn’t. I wanted Toney to beat Couture so he could get a fight with a Crocop or a Silva or someone who’d stand with him because having a guy just take him down and choke him out is a cheap route to take when there are guys around who would be interested in testing themselves against a boxer of Toney’s caliber. Like I said, some great fights around for Toney in MMA and I wouldn’t have minded him being successful at all despite what people might say about it damaging the legitimacy of MMA
Only an idiot would say otherwise. Couture said so himself, I think White did too, and they were both falling over themselves to say how much they respect boxing.
I didn't hear any remotely credible MMA analyst claim that Toney was in the best shape of his career, although he was a whole pound lighter than he was for the first Rahman fight.
That being said I've always liked Randy (might have said so in here previously) and he was extremely gracious. Very few people who dislike that man and I have utmost respect for him.
That's their job though. Hyping up the main event. They also failed to mention that Couture is a shadow of his former self. Honesty won't put bums on seats.
I don't think many (any?) UFC fans would have given Toney much of a hope, or considered the fight as some kind of test of the best that boxing can offer against the best that MMA can offer. Both men are over the hill as fighters and I'm sure any fan who is even vaguely knowledgeable about either sport would have realised this.
It was an interesting match-up and that's about it. No great surprise how it ended. Be great if Toney got his arse in gear and really worked hard on his MMA and got another crack at fighting in the octagon, because he's an exciting fighter to watch on his day. I guess it's not very likely though.
What day is that? 1995? Toneys done with MMA, and MMA doesn't need an overweight novice getting his ass whopped on. One freakshow in a year is enough. Dont' get me wrong. Toney's been a great boxer, but his last great fight took place a LONG time ago. There's a reason he's not with any legit boxing promoter. It's long been known that Toney doesn't give two fecks about getting into shape anymore...and the results are pretty self evident. He's had his time to shine, and back in the day he could wreck some serious contenders. But he stopped looking great a long time ago. Boxing fans knew this would happen, and more importantly they knew James Toney wasn't representing boxing. He was representing James Toney.
Coutoure vs Toney was a straight cash grab for all the newbie fans who weren't around to watch the old UFC's which had a boxer actually come into the cage with one boxing glove on and got his ass handed to him. Boxer vs Wrestler ...Wrestler will win 9 times out of 10. You don't need to watch a PPV to know that.
(that said, I did secretly hope James would get lucky and catch Coutoure with a clean shot)
He won't. Anderson has a contract with the UFC and they won't risk having their P4P King get into a ring where he could get embarrassed by a boxer who's well past his prime, but still got enough to give Anderson a fight. Without the Muay Thai, BJJ and Judo Anderson isn't as dangerous an opponent, and Dana knows this.
Um...no, it wouldn't. It would be a massacre. Anderson Silva is an elite MMA striker, and Toney is a lumbering, flat footed boxer who's last fight at 180-200lbs was more then 15 years ago. It wouldn't be magical. Silva would decimate him with leg kicks and choke him out.
The fight that Toney did want, and the UFC denied was him and Chuck Liddel. Dana was smart enough to realize that even with Chucks wrestling background there was a good chance Chuck would keep the fight standing and play into Toneys hands. A prime chuck might actually give Toney a fight, but Chucks chin is now as strong as crumpled tin foil and there would have been a serious risk that Toney could have knocked him the feck out. That's why Dana in the interest of protecting the UFC and getting rid of Toney once and for all gave him the worst possible matchup. A savvy, all American wrestler.
Agreed.
BJ needs to seriously evaluate where he went wrong and makes some changes.
1) First off. Get rid of your cornermen. They are all a bunch of yes men who don't have a fecking clue what's going on in the fight.
2) Get with a new team. Come on BJ...leave the island and go train with a group of guys who will challenge you. You're naturally talented, but lazy as feck (reminds me of a certain Bulgarian who plays for us - who in fairness is now looking a lot better).
3) Ask yourself if you really have the sac to climb back to the top of the mountain. BJ tends to get all depressed after his ego is brought crashing back to earth. He's made his money and i think he was pretty well of to begin with (think his family itself was pretty well off). If your hearts not in it, it will show and you will lose fights.
I was very disappointed in BJ. As someone who has followed him from his early days I was expecting him to make adjustments and give Edgar a real fight. I realize that there are some fighters that just have their opponents number, but BJ hasn't looked right in both his fights against Edgar. There is a lack of passion in his eyes, and the hunger that he had when he faced much tougher guys in the past seems to have gone. If he can't find that, he might as well quit. He's already established his legacy...it's all good if you say nuffs nuff and go enjoy the rest of your life in the sun.
If Chael Sonnen can land some punches on Anderson and drop him, then Toney is going to land and drop him harder. Even if he has to eat a leg kick to land a straight. Toney would touch anyone's face in a stand up fight - Anderson Silva has good head movement which would allow him to avoid a few strikes and thats what would make the fight interesting as he could and would stand with him. This is the only interesting standup fight they could have given him in my opinion as Toney would find more holes in other fighter's strike defence.
Silva vs Toney would be interesting. Silva hasn't even fought a truly elite level MMA striker, which is why there's a eagerness to pit him against Belfort, and he has looked sloppy lately and lost exchanges with Maia and Sonnen, two opponents he was expected to humiliate standing. Could just be that Silva didn't respect their standup and it'd be different for Toney, but you could also suspect that age is catching up with Silva and his reflexes are dulling.
Plus Silva has shown an interest in boxing, wanted to fight Roy Jones Jnr under boxing rules and says he will fight him once he'd finished in the UFC. I think he could be brazen enough to make a fight with Toney a strict boxing match even if it did take place in the cage, like Sylvia promised with Mercer.
Whether Toney could get into shape for the fight is another question. But I'd definitely pay to see that fight, it would be fascinating. Course it'd be pretty sexual to see Silva get KO'd. Now Toney is out of the picture hopefully Belfort will do it, if Sonnen can't beat him 2nd time round.
Plus Silva has shown an interest in boxing, wanted to fight Roy Jones Jnr under boxing rules and says he will fight him once he'd finished in the UFC. I think he could be brazen enough to make a fight with Toney a strict boxing match even if it did take place in the cage, like Sylvia promised with Mercer.
Whether Toney could get into shape for the fight is another question. But I'd definitely pay to see that fight, it would be fascinating. Course it'd be pretty sexual to see Silva get KO'd. Now Toney is out of the picture hopefully Belfort will do it, if Sonnen can't beat him 2nd time round.
I thought myself that it was a little unbecoming of the belittling boxing took from people who like to talk at the U.F.C. As CLK has pointed out they will go to embarrassing lengths to prove that they are tougher and better.
They build the 'Prime Boxer' with false stats and when the inevitable happens they gloat, it is a little off putting or so I thought.
They build the 'Prime Boxer' with false stats and when the inevitable happens they gloat, it is a little off putting or so I thought.
That makes absolutely no sense at all. Basically you're saying that you think a past his prime, really overweight boxer has the same reflexes, speed and fluidity that a prime, 2 time all American wrestler does? You're dreaming mate - he just doesn't. The only people who think Toney was this knockout machine with one punch knockout power are guys who have never actually followed too much boxing and got their info from the UFC countdown show and bought into the UFC hype that with 4lbs gloves Toney would knock people out. They see the 'lights out' moniker and assume James is like Tyson. But he was never that sort of fighter. He never had that sort of power even in his prime. He's always been one to stand in the pocket and use the slip and roll to evade punches. In many ways his stance and his style is a throwback to the old school way of boxing. But this also means he's ripe to be taken down and pounded out (which Randy did with great ease). Toney was just the wrong style of boxer to cross over into MMA, and a lot of boxing fans knew long before the fight took place how exactly it would end.
Maybe if Toney was 15 years younger, your argument would hold weight. But he's not. When was the last time you actually watched Toney in the ring with someone? He's not going to pressure Anderson like Chales did, he doesn't have that spring in his step, or the speed to go in like that without fear of getting clipped...are you kidding me? Look at how heavy and flat footed he looked. If he charged Silva, he'd get a knee to the jaw and be put into a muay thai clinch. (did you watch Rich Franklin vs Silva? Or Silva vs Leben? - that, but 100x worse).
The reason Anderson got caught by Chaels punch was because he was anticipating the shot and looking to sprawl. This gave Chael the opportunity to suprise him with the hands. Anderson isn't used to guys attacking him full force, and that's what Chael did as soon as the bell rung. That's why Silva got caught, because he had no time to guage the timing, the guy was on him like white on rice.
What exactly is Toney going to do to surprise Anderson? He can't shoot. He can't kick, he can't grapple, he can't submit. So all Anderson has to do is keep out of his range (something Anderson has done with a high degree of success against much faster opponents like Forrest Griffin, Nate Marquart and Dan Henderson, etc). and punish Toney with leg kicks. Wait for a takedown, and then submit him (because his sub defence is virtually non existent).
I dunno how you think Toney vs Silva would be an interesting fight. It would be completely one sided and Silva wouldn't even get touched on his way to destroying Toney. We won't even talk about how Toney makes weight for a catchweight fight. He walks around at 260-possible 270. Anderson would be crazy to go higher then 210. So Silva wouldn't have to cut any weight (since he walks around at 200-210), and Toney would have to cut 50lbs. Factor that in, and you wonder if the weight cut alone would kill Toney.
It's a fight that just wouldn't get sanctioned mate...nobody would think its fair.
Going back to Chael though...he's the only man to truly punish Anderson, but he came to ring with many weapons and a style that just matches up badly with the spider. A relentless wrestler with a high endurance,a good chin, a very powerful shot and decent ground & pound. Those are a lot of strong tools that don't match up well with some of the things Silva is not good in (one being, his rather weak defensive guard). Toney has none of those things. He's one dimensional in the worst possible way. Get him to the ground and you've taken away 99% of his abilities and exposed him to all sorts of danger.
There are plenty of good fights the UFC could have given Toney if they actually saw him as a viable long term prospect, or if Toney himself wanted to make a career out of MMA. But he didn't and the UFC knew they had one chance to market the hell out of a ex-elite championship boxer because the public caught on that pure boxing and mma is two completely different things.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but real fight fans generally appreciate boxing and MMA as two separate skill sets. Only the knobheads looked at it as MMA vs Boxing, or UFC vs Boxing. There's no comparison between the two. Boxing has its place, and if you take an MMA guy into a boxing ring and apply the restrictions that boxers face, the MMA guy will probably lose. Same is true visa versa. Toney vs Coutoure didn't prove anything as far as which sport is tougher. It was a freakshow, and it made everyone involved a lot of money. That's all. Nobody from either camp (boxing, mma) who follows the sport learnt anything new and as far as I saw Couture and the UFC and Dana white were pretty quick to not make it a big deal (thanking Toney for having the balls to step into the areana and accept the fight when most other boxers wouldn't, and visa verse with mma guys).
Sonnen is quite slow. Toney's hands are faster than most UFC fighters. He would catch Silva at some point in a stand up fight and no doubt whatsoever it'd be harder than Chael Sonnen's left. Because he's never been known for his standup just his wrestling and ground and pound.
Where are you getting all this from? It's complete rubbish. Toneys a 42 year old boxer. The speed is the first thing that goes, and his went a long time ago. Yes, he can generate a lot of power with his punches, but that requires a boxing stance, the shoes, a lot of things. This notion that his hands were faster cause he's a boxer, or cause he hits a speed bag and looks impressive...it's meaningless in a ring where the rules don't favor boxing.
Plus, what makes you think Silva would stand up with Toney? If you're going to win a fight you don't play to your opponents strengths, you exploit his weakness. Silva would use his BJJ and grappling to bring Toney down the same way that Couture did.
Silva is a superior fighter to couture,so i'm not sure how you think Toney would do better against Silva when he was completely outclasses by Randy.
BTW. Sonnen isn't slow, and his standup wasn't bad considering he did stand with Silva and didn't look overawed. He's got a pretty well rounded game for a MMA fighter, and if his sub defence was a little better he'd have been crowned the champion that night.
Sonnen isnt known for his striking in mma let alone in a striking only sport. Anderson could beat Toney on his feet and always wants his opponent to strike with him. He'd enjoy it. Maybe he would end up taking Toney down if he was losing a standup fight, but he's pretty much the only mma fighter who wouldnt look to do it as soon as possible because he could stand with him.
And at the end of the day its not like it would be for the title so perhaps it wouldnt matter so much that Anderson would divert from his normal gameplan to just strike even if he was losing. And Anderson could always go for something creative and catch him off guard. Sonnen is slow.
And at the end of the day its not like it would be for the title so perhaps it wouldnt matter so much that Anderson would divert from his normal gameplan to just strike even if he was losing. And Anderson could always go for something creative and catch him off guard. Sonnen is slow.
I saw a post-match interview with Dana White (actually, it's posted in this thread) and he wasn't gloating at all. He made it very clear that it was Toney that wanted this fight. I also think Couture handled himself very well, before and after the fight.
As for who is "tougher and better", I don't think that's even up for debate. A boxer will always lose in the octagon, unless he's spent a looooong time learning new skills. That's not to slag off boxers in general. I'm sure the best boxers could comfortable out-box the best MMA fighters. They just have a more narrow skill-set and can't cope when the fight goes to the ground (nor are they able stop the fight going to the ground)
I've a lot of time for boxing but it's a completely diffferent sport, with completely different rules. Expecting boxers to step into the octagon and beat former UFC world champions would be like expecting Rio Ferdinand to be able to turn out for the English rugby team.
My friend used to have one on DVD. Pat Smith and Royce Gracie got to the final. It was quality!
If I remember correctly, there were very few rules and I'm sure Gracie broke somebody's arm in one of the earlier rounds. People were fighting in their martial arts uniforms.
One of the fights involved a sumo wrestler.
Poor cnut got battered.
Poor cnut got battered.
UFC 1
I probably used the wrong word when I said gloating but I still find it off putting. It is true that Toney wanted this specific fight (to get a big pay day one would imagine) but if he didn't fight Couture, White would have had him fight some-one else which would have been equally embarassing. Toney got to choose the fight but he was always going to fight someone.
It was billed as Boxing vs MMA when it really isn't. But you are right they are just two completely different sports and it is White's job to make U.F.C as popular as he can.
Again it was pretty much Toney himself as the driving force behind "boxing vs MMA" just to generate interest, buyrates and more dollars for himself. Most of the time the UFC said it wasnt that at all, or tried to steer away from it. But when it came to marketing the fight for the event... Well if one of the fighters keeps talking about it, you'd be a bit silly not to use it to generate interest wouldnt you?
I mentioned those two points in my post Ekeke.
Toney was trying to get as much money for one final big pay day and it is White's job to generate as much interest as possible.
Toney was trying to get as much money for one final big pay day and it is White's job to generate as much interest as possible.
I think CLK raises some very valuable points. You don't put a boxer in a ring with an MMA guy and not mention it. It wasn't just 'knobheads' who saw it as Boxing vs MMA it was the whole point of the fight, it was a marketers dream.
I was essentially trying to make the same point as you in saying that they are two completely different sports and shouldn't be compared, so I actually agree with you. I'm sorry I wasn't clearer in my post but I was basically trying to get at the same thing as you.
WWE's Batista is following Lesnars and Lashleys into MMA.
He'll follow Lashley to becoming a bit of a laughing stock. He'll also have to come off the roids.
I read a little on Batista recently and he's more like another Pudzilla isn't he? A bodybuilder with no background in wrestling or anything, unlike Lashley (?)
Thinking back to the Pudz vs Sylvia fight but thinking back it is troubling the way Pudz gassed, it really looked like he was dying out there. I suppose Batista will have the same problems, especially being over 40. Kind of worrying.
Thinking back to the Pudz vs Sylvia fight but thinking back it is troubling the way Pudz gassed, it really looked like he was dying out there. I suppose Batista will have the same problems, especially being over 40. Kind of worrying.
James Toney is NOT an elite MMA striker. James Toney USED to be an Elite Boxer. If you can't recognize that there is a fundamental difference between an elite MMA striker (who can knee, kick, change levels, use a completely different stance) from a boxer then i'm not sure how we can have this discussion.
The problem is people think an elite boxer, is an elite mma striker. THEY ARE WRONG.
I wasn't saying Toney was elite level MMA striker. I said Silva hasn't even fought an elite level MMA striker despite having a reputation as the best, and so it'd be interesting to see him pitted against guys who would actually test his stand up.
Went on to say Toney would test his stand up as there's a good chance Silva would treat it like a boxing match, considering he's been so eager to fight high calibre boxers under boxing rules but has been prevented from doing it by the UFC, who won't let him take the risk outside of the cage. In recognition of Toney not being an MMA striker.