Thanks. Just saw it. What a cnut.
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That Oretga KO man, incredible. Ortega/Holloway should be awesome. The two clear cut best fighters in the division.
O'Malley at 23 could be a real prospect. Still early days but such an exciting watch.
Cyborg is Cyborg. It's tough to even get excited for most of her fights. The Holm one was intriguing but outside of that it's tough to care all that much so far for her UFC run. It's not just the level of talent but the fact they're feeding her fighters that are from a lower weight class for the most part. Cyborg is big even at 145. They've got to find some fighters in a similar mould rather than creating this division and then plucking Bantamweights and even a fecking woman who made flyweight just to Cyborg can be built up. Cyborg is very good but it's tough to know just how good she is because she's on a different level size/strength/build wise to so many of the women she's fighting. Nunes/Cyborg hopefully happens next. Cyborg will beat her and probably finish her IMO but it's a fight you can at least get interested and excited for.
Closing in on UFC 223. Those two title fights are going to be incredible. Only realised today that Karolina is fighting Felice Herrig on that card. I've liked Herrig for a while and she's on a decent run but I see her getting dismantled by Karolina.
O'Malley at 23 could be a real prospect. Still early days but such an exciting watch.
Cyborg is Cyborg. It's tough to even get excited for most of her fights. The Holm one was intriguing but outside of that it's tough to care all that much so far for her UFC run. It's not just the level of talent but the fact they're feeding her fighters that are from a lower weight class for the most part. Cyborg is big even at 145. They've got to find some fighters in a similar mould rather than creating this division and then plucking Bantamweights and even a fecking woman who made flyweight just to Cyborg can be built up. Cyborg is very good but it's tough to know just how good she is because she's on a different level size/strength/build wise to so many of the women she's fighting. Nunes/Cyborg hopefully happens next. Cyborg will beat her and probably finish her IMO but it's a fight you can at least get interested and excited for.
Closing in on UFC 223. Those two title fights are going to be incredible. Only realised today that Karolina is fighting Felice Herrig on that card. I've liked Herrig for a while and she's on a decent run but I see her getting dismantled by Karolina.
Poor Frankie. Deserves huge respect for passing on the title shot to fight a beast like Ortega. He started the fight very ell too, but Ortega can find a finish out of nowhere. Ortega vs Holloway will be awesome. Rooting for Ortega as I find Holloway irrationally annoying but I'd have Max as the favourite. He'll pose alot of the same problems as Edgar did in terms of workrate and crisp boxing but he's longer, more powerful and more durable at this stage of his career.
Adelaide Byrd is one of the judges tonight.
Did you hear Rogan roasting her? I know they give him a fair bit of leeway but he went in pretty hard. "she's a nice lady but so is my mom and I wouldn't want her judging a fight".
Kunitskaya obviously had no business being in there with Cyborg. Literally ever shot looked like it caused her a lot of pain. Who's next? I see Megan Anderson's name thrown around a good bit, but she hasn't been in action for a while, and that combined with the gulf in class between Cyborg her previous opponents has disaster written all over it. It makes me appreciate how tough Holly Holm is. The first person to go the distance with Cyborg since 2008 and the only person to do it over five rounds. For that reason alone, I'd like her go back to 145 at some point and give it one more shot, otherwise Cyborg will just beat up cans as she sails into retirement or wait for father time to bring her down.
It will be interesting to see how Sean O'Malley develops. He's an exciting prospect that the UFC is obviously eager to get behind, although I reckon he's in for a spanking at some point when they push him against somebody ranked much higher a bit too soon.
It will be interesting to see how Sean O'Malley develops. He's an exciting prospect that the UFC is obviously eager to get behind, although I reckon he's in for a spanking at some point when they push him against somebody ranked much higher a bit too soon.
Ortega looked so much bigger than Edgar, should Frankie be at 135?
Not sure if he'd go down much more. In fact I believe he used to fight at LW before.
Agreed. Watching a Cyborg fight is a bit like wondering which human is going to get fed to the lions next. Boring after a while. That entire division is doomed because its a one horse race without enough horses to participate.
Pretty sure that's his division. Could be wrong but I've never heard of anything about Frankie at bantamweight. Besides, that's a pretty stacked division down at 135.
Not only a competitor, either, he was the lightweight champion. He was the one who dethroned BJ Penn, which I remember well because it was the same night in Abu Dhabi when Silva wouldn't stop pissing about against Meia. BJ had his losses but only GSP in terms of recent ones, making it special to see what Edgar did. I also remember him being the first guy to knock Gray Maynard out a few fights later. The guy's an absolute legend.
Yeah but he doesn't look like he cuts much weight for 145, at 155 he must have been fighting dudes so much bigger than him that it says a lot about his talent that he was champion there for a while. To me he looks no bigger at 145 than the top 135 guys.
Lots of wear and tear, 36 isn't the best age to be cutting even more weight, and the guys down there pretty nimble and could easily UD him. Just don't see it. Far from the first time I'd be wrong, mind.
I seriously prefer the UFC in that respect. Although they don't always necessarily respect the rankings, there is a consistent enough flow of top fights to keep me invested, whereas boxing's attention grabbers were too sporadic for my liking.
But politics in UFC doesn't really work.
Boxing struggles with it cos there's so many belts and so many promoters/managers etc, TV channels with their fighters (look at Manny vs. Floyd, Golovkin vs. Canelo) whilst I don't really like the politics of it it is understandable why it happens more. The UFC is an organisation within the sport of MMA. Obviously there is owners of the company but Dana is the face of them. Essentially him politicking is him doing it with his own fighters. It doesn't make sense. Khan vs. Brook will probably happen now and fairly easily cos Hearn is representing both of them. Dana has all the power to make fights but he goes for "money" fights all the time and looks after his top fighters at the expense of others. He's not a very good promoter in that regard really. The UFC does have some structure...or it did, that's gone in recent years though. McGregor is an inactive champion, Ngannou was massively out of his depth for a heavyweight title fight, Cyborg just fought a nobody, DC is going back to heavyweight as a number 1 contender. They make fights they want to, the best vs. the best stuff is a myth really nowadays it doesn't happen.
Thought Wilder looked his usual self just against top opposition and fair fecks to him he came through. If he lands big on anyone they're going down. I reckon AJ is favourite vs. him but it would be a hard one to call.
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Agreed on all points there @Oggmonster
Of course it's understandable why it happens more in boxing. If anybody has the vaguest idea about what a sanctioning organization is and how many of them there are, conflicts of interest are clearly an inevitability of the sport. Those facts don't make it any less infuriating or off-putting that it happens to be that way.
Nor are you wrong about the UFC being one company within the MMA community, but that is precisely why I like it more. It's by far the biggest and has amassed a plethora of talent, and even after the takeover, we're still getting a consistent enough flow of top bouts e.g. Cody vs. TJ, Holloway vs. Aldo, Namajunas vs. Joanna, and Ferguson vs. Khabib and Ortega vs. Holloway coming up.
So yeah, boxing, for me, can't compete, and I can't give it a free pass for the fact that "that's the way things are." And whilst the UFC has changed its way of doing things somewhat since the takeover and people want to shit all over Dana, it still is putting on regular enough bouts between the top fighters. Some freak shows? Absolutely, but I wouldn't go as far as to call the best vs. the best stuff a "myth."
It is a bit of a myth from what it used to be though, there's plenty of stupid shite that happens in the UFC now. Conor doing anything he wants is an example (he's STILL not been stripped of a title despite fighting in boxing in the meantime...), the ludicrous amounts of "interim titles" they make, Dan Henderson got a title shot cos they fancied just carrying on a rivalry from years before, GSP came back won a title and fecked off again, they made a division for Cyborg she then can't fight and now comes back and fights no ones. They only made this division cos they were struggling for a big fight so made up a title to try and sell more PPVS (they didn't sell them either.
The UFC had the chance to capitalise on the McGregor train and really take off. I'm a huge fan of MMA but they failed with it massively. They, including Dana, had a time when Ronda and McGregor (with the likes of Jones in between) were making them a shit load of money so they milked that instead of trying to build people up with them. People shit all over Dana cos he spends his time shitting all over his fighters. He has the boxing mentality of a promoter but it doesn't work he consistently shits on the likes of Woodley and whoever else whilst making allowances for the likes of McGregor. He has his thinking all wrong and it has shown with falling numbers and people are far less interested now then they were a few years ago. He is also a complete scumbag who manipulates and uses fighters to suit himself. People can say what they want about the likes of Eddie Hearn and he's a bit of a dick I agree but he does seem to look after his fighters far more than most.
You get top level boxing fights to. Canelo vs. Golovkin in a few weeks, Joshua vs. Wlad, the Super Series, Kovalev vs. Ward (twice), Spence vs. Brook, Thurman vs. Garcia, Rungvisai vs. Estrada, Selby vs Warrington, Joshua vs. Parker, I didn't ask you nor expect you to give boxing a pass cos it's the way things are, I agree with your sentiment it's a bit tedious but it's not as bad as the UFC. I was just explaining why I think the UFc is worse, they can basically put on whatever fights they want to and choose not to, boxers and their promoters hands can be tied as is evident in the video from WIlder's manager explaining as such. Dana White has no other promoter to deal with, just himself and the UFC and we still get freakshow fights and they're out of desperation to sort out their massively falling numbers.
The initial statement regarding top fights taking place was “it doesn’t happen,” nothing about comparatively speaking, whilst the reality is fights between the top people in their respective divisions do happen, so I guess we both agree that it wasn’t true.
I also don’t buy this idea that the UFC’s all over the place like it’s made out to be. DJ cleaned out his division; the bantamweight and featherweight division have pitted the number 1 contenders against the champions; RDA will more than likely be Woodley’s next challenger after beating Lawler; sanity appears to have been restored to the middleweight division now Bisping has been dethroned i.e. Romero and Whittaker will rightfully meet again; Cormier recently defended his title against top contender Volkan Oezdemir. Sticking with that last one, he’s got no real challengers, and it just so happens that Miocic has also gone through the heavyweights. It’s not exactly absurd for DC, who has fought as a heavyweight, to step up, is it. Moving on to Cyborg, aside from Holm - who she actually did face - who exactly do you expect her to go up against to at least take her the distance? You can’t criticise the UFC if the division is new and there simply isn’t talent out there for her. I’m not even going to try and defend Dana, because the guy is a dick, but that doesn’t do anything to change all the above. It’s irritating that Conor hasn’t been stripped by now. Aside from him and Bisping, however, I’m not overly concerned by anything else that’s gone on, even if there is still plenty of bullshit in addition to that.
And I don’t really see how the video in any way vindicates boxing. If anything, it supports the criticism. It’s not really the case that his “hands are tied,” not when he says they met on 29 November, later states that they are “fine to fight in the UK, fine to fight in Vegas,” goes on to shit on boxing himself by saying that it wouldn’t be acceptable in other sports, and finishes with “he’s dodging us.” The fans want it, Deontay supposedly wants it, as would Joshua, so just get on with it. Meanwhile, UFC fans can’t wait to see DC vs. Miocic, and could realistically see TJ drop down to face MM. Freak show? They’ll be the show.
The UFC still has lots of room for improvement and I hope that Bellator can go from strength to strength to keep pushing them to improve, but none of it makes me look at boxing with envious eyes.
UFC don't have enough stars to continue growing much. If you remove Rousey, Lesnar, GSP, Jones, and Conor out of the equation, you aren't really left with much to draw from. The Fertita Brothers sold at precisely the right time imo.
Well it's an exaggeration but again people get carried away with the best vs. best stuff in UFC cos it simply doesn't always happen and that's a fact. I'd agree there used to be less politics in UFC than boxing but now I'm not to sure. I'm not defending politics either but there's no sense in the UFC having politics in it as it's 1 organisation, they've let the likes of Conor etc run wild and do what they want, they promoted that image and basically said it's the only way to get known now and as a result have got themselves in to a huge cluster feck as a result.
The Cyborg one is the easiest one to deal with. You can criticise the UFC easily for that. The division was made before UFC 208 when they had no main event, they literally created a division and a belt just to shift a few PPVs and that's pathetic. Let the division build up slowly and then make a belt, get a few fighters in, make a tournament or something don't just randomly decide your PPV is a bag of shite and create a belt for it. Again this weekend just gone they put Cyborg on a PPV to beat up some pretty much unknown fighter for the sake of selling a few PPVs there. I remember Takam vs. AJ getting slated cos it was a shit mismatch but Takam had a much better reputation than who Cyborg fought.
I'm not disputing the UFC has good fights cos it does but they do play some politics to make fights that suit them. Why not strip McGregor of his title? Why hand out interim titles all the time all of a sudden? Cos it suits them to do it, they make more money and that's it. They do stuff to suit them all the time. Why did Faber get a title shot vs. Cruz before TJ got a rematch? You could argue TJ deserved that rematch again before Cody got it. It's cos they want to create storylines. They want Faber vs. Cruz...they probably wanted Faber to win to set up TJ vs. Faber. Neither boxing nor the UFC are perfect but my original point still stands for me, the UFC doesn't need to do politics they choose to do it themselves and it's just a bit silly really.
I never tried vindicating boxing either with that video, I think the politics are stupid as well, my point was there is legitimate obstacles in the way for boxing, not once have I said I'm perfectly happy with them. I want the best fighters to fight in both boxing and MMA. Your last point I disagree with as well. Joshua vs. Parker will probably do at least two times the viewers a potential MM vs. TJ fight does and it'd probably do more than Stipe vs. DC does as well. GGG vs. Canelo is the next massive fight, I reckon that sells more than the next 3-4 UFC PPVs combined.
The final point which sums up how bad the UFC is run is look at someone like MM who you rightfully point out cleaned out a division. The P4P Number 1 fighter in the world and shock horror Dana White has shit on him in the past. He also does poorly on PPV and the UFC does absolutely nothing to promote him either. I don't buy this whole "small guys don't do well" stuff they say either cos it's simply not true. Plenty of small fighters have been massive stars. Floyd Mayweather is the highest drawing fighter ever he's hardly a giant.
"The likes of Conor" is Conor and who? I'm not seeing any real examples beyond Conor, who is an exception in many senses. Really, aside from him and Bisping, there isn't much of an "etc." there. And even when he is the exception, it has worked out very well for the UFC e.g. Nate Diaz. I was also happy to see Bisping bring GSP out of retirement. Which MMA fan doesn't want to see GSP.
The Cyborg situation makes sense. What else is the UFC going to do? Make her cut a leg off to get down to bantamweight? She's already dying to get to featherweight. Here's Brazil's biggest female star and they're not going to sign her because they don't have a division? The division would have been created at some point later down the line anyway, and they were never going to overlook her simply because it didn't exist. The fact that they're feeding her bad opposition means it's because that's all there is. It's really a stretch of the imagination to criticise the UFC for wanting to get Cyborg in there. As an aside, does anybody actually think that PPV was put on just for her? It wasn’t. Holloway was supposed to defend against Edgar. Cyborg actually stepped in at short notice, and even then it was against a girl operating as a bantamweight nowadays, so it was never going to be a vintage title match. Could just as easily have been a co-main on another PPV, then it wouldn't have been a different story. Shit happens, but Max will be back, and we'll get him against Ortega. That's going to be a great fight.
I don’t disagree that there are sometimes stupid politics happening in the UFC, but as I’ve outlined, the true contenders have been squaring off against the champions on a regular enough basis. The goof will always be the goof. The fact that boxing has its obstacles in the way bring me back to my own point – sure, it’s a shame, but that’s on them to get their shit sorted and move beyond “what can we do?” And if boxing does manage to get them in the ring and they’re doing better PPV numbers? Great. The sport that’s been established for an age is doing better than the sport that is very much still evolving (this debate aside, it’s fascinating to watch MMA developing, more so the women nowadays).
As for your final point, it’s a bit disingenuous to compare Floyd Mayweather Jr. and MM, particularly as the “small guys.” One’s small and the other is even smaller, otherwise we might as well call McGregor a “small guy,” since he faced off against Mayweather. Another, more pertinent thing that sets them apart is their own ability to sell a fight. Mayweather is great at it, whereas it’s not exactly MM’s forte. Really, you’re picking one of the best teasers of all time (great at convincing people he’ll actually lose for a change) and a guy who prefers to sit at home streaming video games. If a fighter doesn’t want to do that, good for him. It's not exactly one to be aghast at and necessarily indicative of such a badly run company. Besides, I reckon the Miocic situation would have been a better one to criticise.
In the end, the UFC's got the fights and is consistent enough about it. I'll never be truly happy until one of the Diaz brothers steps back in the octagon, but I'll make do with Khabib time for now.
Maybe, but there are still plenty of big draws for people into the MMA and not just the showbiz side of things. Who knows if all of them are even truly out. Conor has been making lots of noises recently. The guy seems to have a chip on his shoulder about Holloway. Probably doesn't like that he's been imperious since he beat him when he was barely out of his teens, or that he actually defended his title against Aldo and dismantled him a second time, whilst Conor is yet to record a single defence of a title.
Didn't Lesnar no-show a WWE event the other week and meet Dana? Not sure if that's part of some storyline.
You think Ortega vs Khabib fight could happen sometime if Ortega moves up in weight?
Think it would be some fight!
Think it would be some fight!
My point was that they have such a lopsided payment scheme where the mega stars make all the money and once you remove these stars from the equation, you will not get the sort of PPV numbers that are necessary for growth.
If you look at the below figures, they have been going sideways or backwards from their high earning years of about a decade ago. The main problem is that people aren't willing to pay for events without the big stars and also the emergence of online streams where people watch without paying. The higher numbers they had in 2015/16 were purely down to Conor/Rousey, Jones, and one Lesnar fight being active. Remove these and the numbers will fall. And they cant really count on Conor coming back because he wants ridiculous money and isn't guaranteed to stick around for long if he comes back. They simply can't afford to pay him what he made in the Mayweather fight.
http://mmadraws.blogspot.com/2018/01/ufc-look-at-ppv-numbers-by-year-and.html
2006 - 10 shows, 527,000 average
2007 - 11 shows, 458,182 average
2008 - 12 shows, 535,417 average
2009 - 13 shows, 617,308 average
2010 - 15 shows, 604,000 average
2011 - 16 shows, 405,000 average
2012 - 13 shows, 454,615 average
2013 - 13 shows, 468,846 average
2014 - 12 shows, 264,583 average
2015 - 13 shows, 578,077 average
2016 - 13 shows, 641,154 average
2017 - 12 shows, 322,083 average (using 230,000 and 325,000 buys for UFC 218 and 219 respectively)
You’ve got Jones failing drug tests, running people over and the like and gets welcomed back open arms and chance after chance. They’re happy to bring in the likes of lesnar in desperation to sell a few more PPVs. Instead of trying to promote actual regular fighters seems counter productive to me.
You can build up the division, have her fight but there’s no title yet. Establish the division. 208 was an awful card probably one of the worst ever and they gave it a title fight and made the title just to sell a few more PPVs. No one thinks Cyborg last fight was just for her everyone knows it was a last minute fight. That doesn’t mean I can’t think it was a waste of time and an awful, pointless division.
Boxing has some brilliant fights as well. You always get contenders fighting each other. Canelo vs GGG, Joshua vs Parker, Thurman vs Garcia, Spence vs Brook, Groves vs Smith coming up and that’s without thinking, it’s hardly like every fight is some political mismatch, even the original point of discussion Wilder vs AJ will happen soon enough.
Yep I agree Mayweather is much better at selling pints but the ufc never even gives people the chance and instead the face of their management constantly shits on anyone he disagrees with. The whole company has massive flaws for me.
Fantastic post and those numbers must be deeply concerning. The most damning thing is how they seem totally incapable of making stars who can regularly drive 650k to 700k in sales.
Stars like Conor and Ronda are like stardust and can only be replaced organically. The rung below that used to seem a lot more achievable.
I do wonder how much of an effect the resurgence boxing is going through has had.
Jon Jones is a screw-up, but you're criticizing the UFC for supposedly not putting on "the best vs. the best" and then expecting them to turn him away? If he's done the time and he's a big draw for a company that is in it for profit, what incentive is there to turn him away? Don't even like the guy but I'm not really getting that one.
Nothing you're saying does anything to change the fact that the UFC had to have Cyborg and giver her a title. What's the alternative to not having her officially top of a shit division? "Hey, guys, come and watch these ladies fight for shits and giggles until we think it's time to give them a championship"? Somebody tell Valentina Shevchenko she might as well also pack it up and go home. Cyborg would love that and totally be all in, and then the UFC can be a dirty, sexist organization amidst all of this new feminism stuff at the same time. It's honestly just not a good idea. Throw the title out there and watch new and exciting fighters evolve the sport as they vie for it.
Boxing undoubtedly has its matches, don't get me wrong. To talk in absolutes like "it's all so political and nothing exciting ever happens!" is dumb. However, there was a bit too much in the way of politics for my liking back when I bothered. Happily watching more and more MMA nowadays and enjoying it. Each to their own.
I wouldn't go as far as to say the UFC "never gives people the chance." Again, just an emphatic statement that doesn't hold much water. They have their chances to sell themselves e.g. the press conferences, embedded, media scrums, so I'm not buying into that one. Does the UFC always do its best? Absolutely not, but the truth lies more or less much closer to the middle than you believe.
Yep, numbers will undoubtedly suffer in their absence. The way it's gone with Rousey, Jones and Lesnar, at least they know they can move on and start at least trying to push others e.g. Khabib, Cody (two fighters who seem to have decent traction). Even the article you linked says that.
What's also worth taking from that article is this:
Worth pointing out otherwise we might jump to the wrong conclusions. The UFC's not doing too badly in selling its big shows, but those little shows are skippable e.g. of course not that many people tuned in to watch Jeremy Stephens knock Josh Emmett out. I could have told anybody that in advance.
Each to their own on Jones, it seems odd to promote a proven drug cheat as something special whilst shitting on other fighters constantly to me. I don't mind the guy either way particularly but they could use that energy on other fighters which they don't seem to do. Again my opinion is simple and I've said iti n the past and I'll never change my mind. They hit the jackpot with Ronda and Conor when they were both active, now they're not and the likes of Jones, Lesnar, GSP aren't around for a while they're a bit fecked.
Shevchenko is in a division with actual rankings though, contenders and people she can fight. Cyborg isn't, there is no rankings there never has been. It's basically lining up can after can for her to knock out and that's it. My point is you surely build a division up a bit, have actual fighters and contenders, rankings and some kind of system before starting a division up? It's not my job to work out how to do it, I don't work the UFC but do something, have an Ultimate Fighter series to create some legitimacy like they did with other divisions. I agree with the last sentiment but it doesn't happen, what exciting fights have there been? Maybe Holm vs. Cyborg was ok, it seems their plan at the moment is let Cyborg roided out her mind beat up a bunch of women who shouldn't be in there for them. I don't get how it would of been sexist to not have a title really? I don't get that at all. They have other womens divisions, they heavily promoted the biggest female athlete of all time and helped pioneer women's sports. Just not having a title doesn't make them sexist and I don't think many people would think that. Unless I misunderstood you and if so apologises.
Yep each to their own, I think people get blind sighted by some previous stuff (not saying you by the way) especially Mayweather vs. Pacquiao but for me there is loads of top level boxing matches out there but if you don't wanna watch it then that's perfectly fair enough.
Media Scrums in particular are of a massive niche. They hardly get big viewing figures with them. Granted they do the Embedded stuff and it's interesting but my point is they really put all their eggs in the Conor basket (as well as Ronda) and you can't blame them completely but at the same time let stars evolve from that. Build them up as well it is doable. Sure not everyone can be a star but there's plenty there who can be. Instead they've got the president of the organisation seemingly shitting on anyone on the roster who dares disagree with him or ask for slightly more money:
Current Heavyweight champion : http://metro.co.uk/2018/01/23/coach...tipe-miocic-explains-dana-white-snub-7251981/
Current Flyweight Champion (and P4P best fighter in the world...arguably ever) : https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2017/11...ous-johnson-tj-dillashaw-super-fight-mma-news
Current Welterweight Champion: https://www.mmafighting.com/2018/2/...woodley-is-full-of-sh-t-about-nate-diaz-fight
Current Batamweight Champion (who beat the biggest female star in any sport easily) : https://www.mmafighting.com/2017/7/...-dana-white-throws-amanda-nunes-under-the-bus
Current Featherweight Champion (who they set up a division just for her basically) : http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...oks-like-wanderlei-silva-in-a-dress-and-heels
So basically this is what the President of the UFC thinks. The guy who is meant to sell us these fighters and fights has instead decided to basically slate them all to the Media openly. They may all be dick heads and Dana may be spot on I don't know cos I don't know any of them personally but still manage them better than that. Dana is playing politics at the detriment of the organisation he heads up and that is what is odd to me....that's just the current champions as well I bet there's loads more articles out there about other fighters he's done this to (GSP is one that immediately comes to mind.)
It’s not really a question of “each to their own” on the Jones issue. The initial point of content was that the UFC isn’t putting the best against the best. If Jones has fulfilled the criteria to open the door for a return, why wouldn’t the UFC want him? You can’t boast that boxing is doing better numbers whilst at the same time expecting the UFC to turn away one of their big draws. If he’d been ducking contenders and refused to defend like Conor and Bisping, he would have been relevant to the conversation. As it is, not for me.
Again, not saying that the women’s featherweight division is good or even close to anything resembling decent. The point is, the UFC might as well have her as a champion, regardless of how bad the division is, otherwise that creates issues with the fighter herself, and they can also ward off any potential criticism e.g. accusations that the UFC is doing a disservice to their women. Even as an organization that has pioneered women’s MMA, why take the risk of even inviting that? To repeat the more relevant point, though, let’s not lose sight of what’s important here – Cyborg herself. The woman is championship material and can at least give the UFC two solid defences that will bring in the buys (Holm and Nunes), and as a business, I’d rather take that than an immeasurably bigger draw who won’t even show up for a single one. I’m absolutely positive that her taking these bouts as a champion is a bigger attraction than her taking them as somebody simply building the division. Oh, and they’ll all be cans to Valentina, so having a list doesn’t automatically make it much better i.e. is she going to draw more because there is officially a list (but not exactly what you’d call “depth”). When number 2 contender behind Valentina has a 2-2 record, I doubt it.
Dana definitely does get it wrong and could button it up a bit more. At times, he’s blatantly biased towards certain fighters to the detriment of others (he’ll personally carry Sean O’Malley to the octagon on his shoulders if the kid picks up a few more wins). I think some of it will invariably stem from him taking exception to what he considers as an insufficient performance on the part of the fighters to do their bit in the selling the fights, or putting in terrible performances and not being the champions he hopes for (I think he gets colds sweats at night thinking about Woodley-Thompson 2). It’s a bit of a “chicken or egg” paradox when looking at promotional aspect, which isn’t to say he should shit on fighters through the media. I’ve never been in his position and certainly don’t envy having to juggle hundreds of fighters’ needs and desires. In that respect, I think it’s somewhat unfair to assume he should unequivocally get behind all of his guys, because conflict in an organization that big and important is going to be inevitable. Politics rear its head in much less stressful and intricate environments. All of those things considered, the UFC still puts on a damn good show and I'm more than happy with the consistency of big fights.
The smack talk will be off the charts in the run-up to this one. Only one month. One whole month.
I'd probably say it's a stretch to definitively called a proven drug cheat the best though really, hence each to their own. I think a lot of promotion with Jones is potentially wasted energy as well because he'll inevitably feck up again. I'm not blaming them for using Jones...I like watching him fight and from a selfish point of view I wish he'd sort himself out and fight more often but it seems inevitable he won't. Maybe the UFC are stuck cos it's such a shit division as well who knows.
I don't think you can definitively say that they'd get stick for not having a women's featherweight division I can't really confidently comment on something that never actually happened either though really. My opinion is that something like that probably wouldn't happen for reasons I've explained. They've got strong depth in women's divisions (You actually said the same yourself), Rousey is the biggest female fighter ever in terms of name and one of the most recognisable female athletes in all sports and they pushed her to the moon. I personally don't see the outrage that would be caused in Cyborg not being given a division, if anything I'd imagine there would be more outrage (albeit still little to none) in letting someone like Cyborg who has such an advantage over most other women due to years of steroid abuse fight a load of cans who have no business being in there with her. The fight the other night for example was an absolute joke and a mismatch which is rarely, if ever, seen in a title fight. There's more legitimate contenders in that division than Featherweight for me. You pick number 2, fair comment. Why not number 3 with a 10-3 record? Or 4 with 19-7 (6-2 in UFC), I'm not claiming in the most stacked division in the UFC but it was granted some legitimacy by there being build up to the title. Maybe it's just me but I've no interest at all in watching Cyborg destroy people who barely belong in the UFC.
Conflict could happen and people don't get on with their bosses which Dana is but lets not pretend he doesn't create them cos he does. He had a huge impact in the Reebok stuff which essentially took away fighters massive source of income, he then pays his fighters shit most times or massively underpays them, he then goes in press conferences, media scrums etc (i.e the stuff you said is good for fighters to promote themselves) and shits all over the roster if they dare disagree with him, he sulks like a petulant child half the time as well. I'm sure his job is stressful but so are plenty of other peoples. There's a way of being professional and he is far from it, again stemming back to the original point of this whole debate...he creates the politics himself and could easily avoid it. He encouraged people to talk shit in the media by doing it himself and hyping up fighters who do it.
Jones is a very special breed of stupid. It’s a shame because whether or not he had the talent was never in question. Chance after chance and he still managed to throw it all away. As long as he had served his suspension, I never minded them calling on him. Now that he’s screwed up again, he should be slapped with a much longer suspension, one that will practically make him irrelevant, and any decision shouldn’t even be in Dana’s hands from then on. It’s for the good of anti-doping in sport as a whole, not only MMA.
I said they have depth, but the depth amounted to the girl immediately behind Shevchenko having a 2-2 record. If that’s indicative of the division as a whole, I’m not so hot on the idea that having a top 10 gives it much more credibility. Why didn’t I pick the girl ranked 3? She’s 2-3 in UFC fights, meaning it isn’t much of a counter-argument. What’s great here is that we can put any ambiguity of rankings aside and look at the evidence we do have – Shevchenko’s debut at flyweight against Priscila Cachoeira. This wasn’t just the kind of dominance St-Pierre displayed against Diaz in their fight, this was car crash television. It’s as rough as anything Cyborg has inflicted on any of her opponents. Significant strikes: 87-2. The performance was as bad at the numbers suggest. That fight should never have happened, either. Does it hold more legitimacy because it’s in a division with a top 10 ranking? After seeing what happened to the poor girl, I think not. In the meantime, realistically speaking, Cyborg could have more relevant, competitive fights at featherweight (Holm, Nunes) than Shevchenko might be able to get at flyweight in the near future. The reality is, a division doesn’t have to be deep (although ideal in the long-term), but it needs a champion who can put asses on seats. With Cyborg, they simply have that, even if the featherweight division doesn’t have longevity beyond her. The woman’s the champion and she is a draw. That’s what they need, that’s what they have.
Nobody said Dana doesn’t create conflict, so what’s the argument here. What’s worth remembering is, the UFC isn’t going to run as a company that is completely harmonized. Dana could be a placid guy, not swear in interviews, and not go tomato red as he introduces Conor with as much gusto as I’ve ever seen for anything. Problems would still arise. That's not a tacit exoneration of everything Dana does, by the way. Truth be told, I wouldn’t care for him to change very much. Even with the politics, here’s what needs to constantly be remembered – fans are still getting the fights they want and deserve, as was mentioned in a previous post. And he encouraged people to talk shit? Well, just so happens that it can sell fights. Who can complain there. There’s definitely politics working in the UFC, but they seem to be the kind that work for them more than they do against them.
Nunes/Cyborg not looking like it'll be next for the title as Nunes/Pennington is now official for 224. Gastelum/Jacare on that card too which is going to be one heck of a fight.
Pennington for a title shot... sweet Jesus, the state of that division.
what's the main event for 224? it cant be this fight...
what's the main event for 224? it cant be this fight...
feck!! I was kinda happy Ortega defeated Edgar because it's the best result for the division. The young guys taking over instead of the typical old school guys.
But now he says he wants to defeat Holloway and move up to lightweight for blah blah blah blah... the same old bullshit $$$$.
He won't get past Max Holloway though. Specially if he is already thinking that ahead into the future.
But now he says he wants to defeat Holloway and move up to lightweight for blah blah blah blah... the same old bullshit $$$$.
He won't get past Max Holloway though. Specially if he is already thinking that ahead into the future.
Agreed re point one. The problem being I don't know how seriously they take USADA, I reckon tey kind of regret doing it. I'd imagine it was done as a way of boosting the value of the company as it makes them more legitimate. They probably don't really care if everyone is juicing...the reality is I'm sure most the top level fighters are Jones is just stupid enough to get caught. I doubt Romero, Ngannou etc look like that naturally and I'm pretty sure the same applies from the heavyweights all the way down.
I agree her first fight was a joke, it was disgraceful that the UFC let her fight that fight and they should be embarrassed. Of course it does nothing for the rankings and the fight can't be justified cos there was rankings. Equally she was unranked anyway for what it's worth. It's not like they claimed she was a number 1 contender or owt in fairness but I do agree the fight should never of happened. Obviously Holm vs. Cyborg was more competitive but lets not pretend her other fights are, her fight last week was easy, her fight before Holm was easy to. They threw more than 2 punches I'll give you that but they should never of been in the Octagon with her. My view on this is probably biased cos I can't stand Cyborg to be honest though.
Wouldn't say it's an argument really more of a discussion...nothing wrong with having difference of opinions. Problems would arise course they would, I'm not doubting that for 1 minute cos the fighters are fiery as well as Dana. I seriously doubt there would be as much though. Under no circumstance should it seem ok for him to say the some of the stuff I linked to in them articles though for me though. Does it really encourage people to buy fights shit talking? It works for Conor I'd agree and maybe it generates some interest but is there loads of proven success? Kevin Lee vs. Tony Ferguson did 200k buys apparently and that was a load of shit talk, Holly Holm vs. de Radamie did the same. I don't disagree we get the fights we want to some extent (albeit there's a LW champ who everyone wants to fight and Dana is terrified of him) I actually enjoy the UFC at the moment and enjoy the fights we get. Essentially this all comes down to opinions though you've got yours and I've got mine and I don't think anyone is wrong. I stand by my original point that the politics in boxing are just as stupid, if not more so, than boxing. You disagree and that's fair enough. I nall honesty we might as well move on cos it's not really seemingly getting anywhere, both have our opinions which we're entitled to.
(No real debating below, just opinions loosely attached to previously discussed points)
I’m not sure about USADA myself. It’s not just MMA, it’s sport as a whole. I think so many are dirty, yet sport has been a pastime and a part of my life for as long as I can remember, and it’s hard to accept that they’re all at it because I need a level of denial to keep myself interested. Ngannou is dirtier than a pig rolling in its own shit, and no way should Romero look that way at his age. I’m only willing to buy into the “that guy’s got great genetics” argument for so long. As Nate would say, “everyone’s on steroids.”
On Cyborg, the ball park figure was reported for 222 and it looks like it sold well for what it was (I was more interested in Edgar-Ortega myself). Is she a cheat? I think so. I quite like her on embedded, as she comes across as quite affable, but no way has she been competing clean for most of her career. Every time the PED issue comes up, I get traumatising flashbacks of Lance Armstrong telling everybody he was the most tested cyclist and how it was disgusting that anybody dare question him. Most of them aren't just cheats, they're also full of shit.
It’s hard to know where to draw the line on “shit talking.” I think it’s something you have or you don’t, but Conor’s WWE antics have encouraged a new generation to give it a go. Kevin Lee is one who puts the “trash” in trash talker. Looking back at the build-up to that fight, I had a good laugh when Tony started talking about how he “got out of the hyperbolic chamber at Big Bear.” He and Khabib should sell well. Just hope he’s not backed up against the cage for five rounds trying to stand up like Barboza did.
Yeah I think the problem is there's so many dirty athletes in all sports I became a bit cynical about it to be honest. I kind of got immune to it on most part cos my theory is if they're all on something it's somewhat of a level playing field. It only goes out the window that when a Cyborg or someone is twice the size of everyone else in their division!
YEah agreed re Lee as well although I do find him interesting when he's not hyping up his own fights, he seems to know how the whole game works these days and is pretty good at it. He's had some funny lines in the past and hopefully as he matures he adapts into it more cos he is a really good fighter I think. I reckon Tony vs. Khabib does big numbers, it should do it's the 2 best fighters in the division and Khabib especially seems to of gotten a much bigger following over the last 12 months.
feck!! I was kinda happy Ortega defeated Edgar because it's the best result for the division. The young guys taking over instead of the typical old school guys.
But now he says he wants to defeat Holloway and move up to lightweight for blah blah blah blah... the same old bullshit $$$$.
He won't get past Max Holloway though. Specially if he is already thinking that ahead into the future.
That was always going to come. Besides Holloway is younger than him so he can keep that division on lockdown either way.
Edit: now that I've said this Holloway will end up moving to lightweight too.
feck!! I was kinda happy Ortega defeated Edgar because it's the best result for the division. The young guys taking over instead of the typical old school guys.
But now he says he wants to defeat Holloway and move up to lightweight for blah blah blah blah... the same old bullshit $$$$.
He won't get past Max Holloway though. Specially if he is already thinking that ahead into the future.
Doesn't Holloway himself have ideas about moving up? He's spoken about it in relation to new regulations about weight cutting. Not sure how much he really wants to.
Whatever happens in the future, I'm going to love seeing a game Holloway invite Ortega to trade. I'll second that about him not getting past Max.