The MMA thread

tomaldinho1 said:
Why did he avoid Francis when Francis was in the ufc?
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Did he avoid him? He was out of MMA for three years. I don’t think it had anything to do with Francis. It was during that period that the UFC offered Francis a new contract but Francis moaned about wanting to make as much as top boxers so he left and would up fighting Fury and AJ.

As for Jones ducking Francis, bear in mind that Francis lost to Stipe and Derrick Lewis, so we’re not talking about someone who is so unbeatable that other top fighters would duck him.
 
Raoul said:
I don’t think he is ducking anyone. It’s Dana who makes and approves the fights (with input from his team), and if there’s anything we’ve learned it’s that Dana is going to select the matchup that garners the most PPV buys in the US. Aspinall may not be that guy and given that Jones is nearing the end of his career, he too will want maximum PPV points, which is driven by the number of buys.
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Not sure I agree that Jones vs Stipe is the most attractive fight to make for PPV, both guys have hardly been active for the last 3/4 years so not in the current sphere of MMA consciousness, Aspinall on the other hand has been fighting regularly when fit and winning in explosive fashion, plus he's pretty active on social media with his Twitter and Youtube presence, building a pretty significant fanbase across the sport.

I think Dana is giving Jones what he wants because he's trying to build his legacy as the "GOAT" of the sport which could be more beneficial in the long run in terms of keeping him as some sort of figurehead/public personality representing the company once he retires, kinda like a Jordan or Brady, so he doesn't necessarily want to push him into tarnishing that legacy at this point.
 
redom said:
Not sure I agree that Jones vs Stipe is the most attractive fight to make for PPV, both guys have hardly been active for the last 3/4 years so not in the current sphere of MMA consciousness, Aspinall on the other hand has been fighting regularly when fit and winning in explosive fashion, plus he's pretty active on social media with his Twitter and Youtube presence, building a pretty significant fanbase across the sport.

I think Dana is giving Jones what he wants because he's trying to build his legacy as the "GOAT" of the sport which could be more beneficial in the long run in terms of keeping him as some sort of figurehead/public personality representing the company once he retires, kinda like a Jordan or Brady, so he doesn't necessarily want to push him into tarnishing that legacy at this point.
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There’s probably alot of truth to that. Also, Dana simply doesn’t like Francis because Francis publicly challenged him about fighter pay, only to then reject what was reported to be a very generous deal to extend with the UFC.

Accordingly, Dana probably views him as a bit of a selfish drama queen and doesn’t want anything to do with him. That issue shouldn’t be conflated into Jon Jones ducking a fight with him, when it’s Dana who is the ultimate arbiter of what happens.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
They just need to strip him if he beats Stipe and then turns down aspinall. It’s not even a problem he ducked Francis and now is ducking Aspinall because physiologically they’re just awful match ups and his career has been at a different weight class. The issue the ufc enabling him to degrade the heavyweight title.

Would love for this to screw Dana over, the best HW clash available is Francis / Aspinall and one already quit. If the other does ufc HW is dead.
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They won't strip him, and he won't vacate it either. I can 100% see him teasing potential fights for about a year before finally announcing the Alex P. fight or retirement.
 
Luke1995 said:
They won't strip him, and he won't vacate it either. I can 100% see him teasing potential fights for about a year before finally announcing the Alex P. fight or retirement.
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After all this ‘ducking Tom’ stuff and him pushing for the Alex fight, it’d be fecking awesome if Stipe beat him
 
T00lsh3d said:
After all this ‘ducking Tom’ stuff and him pushing for the Alex fight, it’d be fecking awesome if Stipe beat him
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Does Stipe have a chance after the first round though ?

It seems like people don't believe he can be competitive after the first.
 
Luke1995 said:
Does Stipe have a chance after the first round though ?

It seems like people don't believe he can be competitive after the first.
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I don’t know why? It’s not as if he’s got Francis’s engine. Surely he can fight 5 rounds
 
Luke1995 said:
Does Stipe have a chance after the first round though ?

It seems like people don't believe he can be competitive after the first.
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He has a punchers chance. If he happens to clip Jones anything can happen. That said, Jones will be at much better reach distance that what Stipe is accustomed to and if Jon gets him to the ground, I don't think there much a 42 year old Stipe will be able to do.
 
Raoul said:
Did he avoid him? He was out of MMA for three years. I don’t think it had anything to do with Francis. It was during that period that the UFC offered Francis a new contract but Francis moaned about wanting to make as much as top boxers so he left and would up fighting Fury and AJ.

As for Jones ducking Francis, bear in mind that Francis lost to Stipe and Derrick Lewis, so we’re not talking about someone who is so unbeatable that other top fighters would duck him.
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He became a social media fighter for three years, then was fighting literally as soon as Ngannou left. Re Francis being beaten, that’s why it reflects so poorly on Jones but it was clear from Stipe 1 to 2 that Ngannou did a crash course in takedown defence. Francis just wanted to get paid, so he’d have no reason to avoid the only real payday in HW which is Jones.

The best part was when Jones was giving it the big one about how he’d fight anyone, any time and then Ngannou beat Gane and he straight away was like ‘I won’t fight again if im not paid well’.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
He became a social media fighter for three years, then was fighting literally as soon as Ngannou left. Re Francis being beaten, that’s why it reflects so poorly on Jones but it was clear from Stipe 1 to 2 that Ngannou did a crash course in takedown defence. Francis just wanted to get paid, so he’d have no reason to avoid the only real payday in HW which is Jones.

The best part was when Jones was giving it the big one about how he’d fight anyone, any time and then Ngannou beat Gane and he straight away was like ‘I won’t fight again if im not paid well’.
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Sure, but ultimately it’s Dana White who authorizes the fights so it would be on him whether these two fight. Fighters are always going to talk a big game, but at the of the day they don’t get to choose who they fight when the President of the UFC wants something else.
 
Raoul said:
He has a punchers chance. If he happens to clip Jones anything can happen. That said, Jones will be at much better reach distance that what Stipe is accustomed to and if Jon gets him to the ground, I don't think there much a 42 year old Stipe will be able to do.
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Best shot is to keep it standing and get close enough to land a bomb then.
 
Raoul said:
Sure, but ultimately it’s Dana White who authorizes the fights so it would be on him whether these two fight. Fighters are always going to talk a big game, but at the of the day they don’t get to choose who they fight when the President of the UFC wants something else.
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You know as well as I that’s not how it works. Fighters will influence what he does, as will his team as they try and create stars to market.

Jones/Stipe makes sense for the ppv numbers, the issue is simply Dana stupidly has allowed Jones to hold a major belt hostage. He’s got no intention of fighting any current/active heavyweight and Stipe is essentially retired so we’re faced with this ludicrous situation where, whoever wins, the next fight for the HW title will be Jones versus Pereira or Stipe simply vacating.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
You know as well as I that’s not how it works. Fighters will influence what he does, as will his team as they try and create stars to market.

Jones/Stipe makes sense for the ppv numbers, the issue is simply Dana stupidly has allowed Jones to hold a major belt hostage. He’s got no intention of fighting any current/active heavyweight and Stipe is essentially retired so we’re faced with this ludicrous situation where, whoever wins, the next fight for the HW title will be Jones versus Pereira or Stipe simply vacating.
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I’m not entirely sure what we’re debating here. We’ve already established that it’s Dana who approves the fights (nobody with a shred of knowledge about the UFC would credibly dispute this), so we’re left with debating why Jones didn’t actively campaign to fight Francis during his three year sabbatical when he was bulking up and taking a bit of a break.

As for Aspinall, the fight may still yet happen. The Stipe fight has been in the works for some time and has been delayed for various reasons. Aspinall just fought 3 and a half months ago, so if Jones wins and Dana approves the fight then there’s no reason to believe it wouldn’t go forward. If it winds up being Perreira, then we shouldn’t be surprised either given how Dana has a history of prioritizing fights that generate the most hype and drama.
 
Raoul said:
I’m not entirely sure what we’re debating here. We’ve already established that it’s Dana who approves the fights (nobody with a shred of knowledge about the UFC would credibly dispute this), so we’re left with debating why Jones didn’t actively campaign to fight Francis during his three year sabbatical when he was bulking up and taking a bit of a break.

As for Aspinall, the fight may still yet happen. The Stipe fight has been in the works for some time and has been delayed for various reasons. Aspinall just fought 3 and a half months ago, so if Jones wins and Dana approves the fight then there’s no reason to believe it wouldn’t go forward. If it winds up being Perreira, then we shouldn’t be surprised either given how Dana has a history of prioritizing fights that generate the most hype and drama.
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That if Jon thought he could beat Francis, he would have fought him. That if he thought he could beat Aspinall, he'd have booked that fight long ago.

The simple thing is Jones/Miocic happens. Then Jones just has the choice to fight Aspinall (I'd argue actually more of a goat defining fight, it's the hardest fight he could take) or vacate the belt. It should be simple but people are just aware of how Dana tries to manoeuvre situations and doesn't just match the No1 contender to the champ.
 
For me, the UFC should make Pereira vs Aspinall at HW as soon as feasibly possible. I am sure both would be open to taking the fight.

If Pereira loses, he's still a big star anyway and he's moved up a weight so won't have a big negative impact on future drawing power at all. If Pereira wins, the Jones fight is even bigger. If Aspinall wins, there is no other fight out there for Jones... and the Aspinall vs Jones fight becomes huge. If Jones then throws in the towel and decides not to fight again... that would look terrible for him. Even worse than it does now.
 
The fact he doesn't think there should have been an interim belt really epitomizes the level of ego we're dealing with. He was out for a whole year FFS and just expects the sport to standstill for him. :lol:

As soon as Stipe wasn't willing to Aspinall at short-notice last Nov, the belt should have been made vacant and Jones should have been given the option - fight Stipe in a non-title fight or you have the opportunity to fight for the belt immediately once you're back - exactly what happened at 205 twice with Jiri and Hill.

Unfortunately Dana rides his dick so hard he can basically do whatever he wants, despite the fact he's been a nightmare to deal with most of his career and has barely ever done anything to actually do the company a favour unlike a whole host of other fighters.
 
DannyCAFC said:
The fact he doesn't think there should have been an interim belt really epitomizes the level of ego we're dealing with. He was out for a whole year FFS and just expects the sport to standstill for him. :lol:

As soon as Stipe wasn't willing to Aspinall at short-notice last Nov, the belt should have been made vacant and Jones should have been given the option - fight Stipe in a non-title fight or you have the opportunity to fight for the belt immediately once you're back - exactly what happened at 205 twice with Jiri and Hill.

Unfortunately Dana rides his dick so hard he can basically do whatever he wants, despite the fact he's been a nightmare to deal with most of his career and has barely ever done anything to actually do the company a favour unlike a whole host of other fighters.
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Things are going to get very weird post-Stipe, especially if he wipes him.

I should think UFC will be keeping Aspinall far away from the cage, as he’ll take all of Jones thunder on the night.
 
Fortitude said:


4:30ish onward.
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He does make a few decent points. Ultimately, it doesn't make a lot of sense for Jones to be entertaining future fights when he's got a difficult one on the table two days from now. If he beats Stipe, I think that narrative could change a bit depending on whether Jones retires or not. If he continues at HW, there are really only two realistic fights available to him.
 
Funnily enough when I see the way he's acted the last week or so towards Aspinall it makes me think a fight between them is more likely because I think it would be just like Jones to be acting like this to try and start the mental warfare with Tom, he knows eyes are on him because of fight week and it feels to me like he's trying to build tension and animosity between them, Jon likes to poke and prod his opponents to try and make them psychologically compromised and Tom is such a composed and chill guy that it could be the way to make him lose his cool a bit and get frustrated if he feels he's being denied his dream of being undisputed HW champ.

Either that or he's genuinely scared to face him because some of the shit he's been saying is beyond daft and he would've been better off saying as little as possible instead of giving it so much energy if he truly does intend to deny Tom a fight.
 
All of this will be irrelevant when Stipe knocks Jones into the Netherrealm and gets on the mic to talk that gibberish he always talks.
 
Raoul said:
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Wooo. The heat keeps intensifying! I get where Jones is coming from on a number of things and he could well see Aspinall as “another Gane” as in, another young gun pretender etc. and he definitely has many who simply dislike him and want to see him beat. There’s also merit in him saying if he beat Aspinall - especially if he beat him easily - the narrative is more likely to change from young lion, dethroner and next great one to ‘just another pretender who was obviously not as good as billed.’

In terms of legacy it doesn’t do much for Jones to beat him whilst Aspinall beating Jones elevates him to another stratosphere and gives him eternal bragging rights.

Jones gambles with a lot, but his legacy means everything to him and if I had to call it, I think he’d retire if the only option post-Stipe (assuming a win) is Aspinall. In the mid and long term, only true followers of the sport would bring up Aspinall as any part of Jones’ story if he doesn’t fight him.

Age and decline has made Jon a wiser and more wary man; he evaluates the game off of what he has to lose more than what he has left to gain and the elements of risk in decisions made. From his perspective, there’s plenty to lose and a fractional amount to gain in taking on an opponent who doesn’t have that much at stake compared to him.

Having said that, if the offer is extremely lucrative - say a much higher percentage of the PPV - Jones might be tempted.
 
Fortitude said:
Wooo. The heat keeps intensifying! I get where Jones is coming from on a number of things and he could well see Aspinall as “another Gane” as in, another young gun pretender etc. and he definitely has many who simply dislike him and want to see him beat. There’s also merit in him saying if he beat Aspinall - especially if he beat him easily - the narrative is more likely to change from young lion, dethroner and next great one to ‘just another pretender who was obviously not as good as billed.’

In terms of legacy it doesn’t do much for Jones to beat him whilst Aspinall beating Jones elevates him to another stratosphere and gives him eternal bragging rights.

Jones gambles with a lot, but his legacy means everything to him and if I had to call it, I think he’d retire if the only option post-Stipe (assuming a win) is Aspinall. In the mid and long term, only true followers of the sport would bring up Aspinall as any part of Jones’ story if he doesn’t fight him.

Age and decline has made Jon a wiser and more wary man; he evaluates the game off of what he has to lose more than what he has left to gain and the elements of risk in decisions made. From his perspective, there’s plenty to lose and a fractional amount to gain in taking on an opponent who doesn’t have that much at stake compared to him.

Having said that, if the offer is extremely lucrative - say a much higher percentage of the PPV - Jones might be tempted.
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That all makes sense but if you look at it that way, what does he have to gain to fight Pereira then? Anyone's status would go into another stratosphere if you can beat Jones. If he beats Pereira then no one bats an eyelid imo as he was initially a middleweight who moved up to LHW, does he have what it takes to make his HW debut against Jones who's been at that weight for two years by then?

I think he's fighting Aspinall if the paycheck is right and he'll make easy work of him as well. If he wins against Stipe tomorrow, that is.
 
RobinLFC said:
That all makes sense but if you look at it that way, what does he have to gain to fight Pereira then? Anyone's status would go into another stratosphere if you can beat Jones. If he beats Pereira then no one bats an eyelid imo as he was initially a middleweight who moved up to LHW, does he have what it takes to make his HW debut against Jones who's been at that weight for two years by then?

I think he's fighting Aspinall if the paycheck is right and he'll make easy work of him as well. If he wins against Stipe tomorrow, that is.
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If we push the “duck” angle to the side, what Jones has said does tie in with his whole objective for the last few years. He went up to heavy to chase legacy and boost his standing, not to be there taking on all-comers. He’s evidently done with that and I think he’s closer to retirement than he is fighting all-comers and not holding up the division for the sake of honour and “doing right by others” where, legitimately, Aspinall has every right to expect a title shot.

Pereira is chasing legacy himself and if he beats Jones, he gets the scalp but also becomes the 3-division king, which is the unprecedented in the entirety of the sport to date. In terms of legacy, it holds more value to both fighters where as to Jones, the Aspinall gig holds little upside and an enormous downside, should he lose. I can see from his perspective why one is worth chasing and the other will have to be hugely incentivised given what is at stake for him.

He’s also not wrong in saying Pereira is his size as they have the same walkaround weight. If we’re honest, Stipe, Jones and Pereira would be Heavies in a world where the likes of Aspinall, N’Gannou, Gane etc. would be true Super Heavies, so I even get what he’s saying in that sense - given the choice, he’s going to opt for guys in and around his own weight and not these super athletic SHW’s.

I don’t know about him making easy work of Aspinall; Jones is slowing down and he’s not got the strike volume he used to have, coupled with weight disadvantage and Aspinall’s roundedness *and* KO power as well as heavier strikes, that looks like a very difficult fight for Jones - harder than Stipe or Alex, for sure.

With regard to Pereira in the HW division, vs. Jones and his weight, plus having the heavier striking capacity, that fight is more classical with the distance striker having to stop close range engagement at all costs and Jones having to negate the striking without getting himself knocked out - I think both would rather fight each other stylistically and size wise, than Aspinall.
 
RobinLFC said:
That all makes sense but if you look at it that way, what does he have to gain to fight Pereira then? Anyone's status would go into another stratosphere if you can beat Jones. If he beats Pereira then no one bats an eyelid imo as he was initially a middleweight who moved up to LHW, does he have what it takes to make his HW debut against Jones who's been at that weight for two years by then?

I think he's fighting Aspinall if the paycheck is right and he'll make easy work of him as well. If he wins against Stipe tomorrow, that is.
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I agree re the Pereira take, I really don't see what he gains because it's a fight everyone will expect him to win by submission quite comfortably.

We've already seen Pereira against more of a well rounded similarly sized (though not really elite submission guy) when he fought 40 year old Jan and it was pretty close. Izzy obviously KO'd him quite badly so it's not like Jones would be taking his '0', Pereira for sure has the most hype, a massive nation behind him in terms of fans but there's a general acceptance he would struggle if he goes up and meets someone that has a strong ground game. That's why, in another similar situation if we think about Dana's match making, the No1 contender for him should be Ankalaev who isn't even a pure wrestler but is vastly better there than anyone he's fought before in that regard (and we saw what happened with Ankalaev/Jan so know Ankalaev would be very dominant on the ground + we assume would not stand with Alex given the issues he had with leg kicks).

Really not sure why people think Jones is some HW monster though, he beat Gane and that's literally it. He made DC come down a weight class for him which is a bit silly when you think of how big John is and is now much older. His last LHW fights against guys who could stuff his takedowns and were a similar height/reach were really close/controversial wins and this would be going up against someone bigger than him, arguably fitter, faster and who has basically been knocking people out for fun. That's why it was such a shame he did not fight Francis because it was stylistically so interesting, one with the obvious KO advantage if they stayed standing and one with a big submission advantage on the ground.
 
redom said:
Funnily enough when I see the way he's acted the last week or so towards Aspinall it makes me think a fight between them is more likely because I think it would be just like Jones to be acting like this to try and start the mental warfare with Tom, he knows eyes are on him because of fight week and it feels to me like he's trying to build tension and animosity between them, Jon likes to poke and prod his opponents to try and make them psychologically compromised and Tom is such a composed and chill guy that it could be the way to make him lose his cool a bit and get frustrated if he feels he's being denied his dream of being undisputed HW champ.

Either that or he's genuinely scared to face him because some of the shit he's been saying is beyond daft and he would've been better off saying as little as possible instead of giving it so much energy if he truly does intend to deny Tom a fight.
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starting to get that vibe also, especially now Dana is being so adamant that Aspinall must fight the winner. You seen the crowd at the press conference singing Aspinall's name. You've the best fighter in HW history, and arguably the greatest of all time, and the crowd are singing Aspinall's name. White won't let a fight of that magnitude go. I don't see Jones retiring, I see Aspinall retiring though win or lose.
 
I've always been a fan of Jones the fighter - he's obvious a horrid man out of the octogon. I'd have wanted him to win tomorrow up until recently.

But all this build up towards the Stipe fight, and the GOAT-level ducking of Tom, has absolutely tainted my view of his legacy. He's meant to be the GOAT. This avoidance of the interim champion is not worthy of a champ. I can just about understand why he's fighting Stipe, as this fight should have happened a year ago - and its been rescheduled. But he's quite clearly ducking Aspinall because I think deep down he knows he'll lose. Making up false reasons is a piss take. Saying Tom is disrespectful and not worthy of a title shot - when in fact he's done more than what Jones did before he got himself a title shot.

Hope Stipe ends him tomorrow night - not giving Jones the satisfaction of teasing Aspinall even further.
 
Hernandez - BFA said:
I've always been a fan of Jones the fighter - he's obvious a horrid man out of the octogon. I'd have wanted him to win tomorrow up until recently.

But all this build up towards the Stipe fight, and the GOAT-level ducking of Tom, has absolutely tainted my view of his legacy. He's meant to be the GOAT. This avoidance of the interim champion is not worthy of a champ. I can just about understand why he's fighting Stipe, as this fight should have happened a year ago - and its been rescheduled. But he's quite clearly ducking Aspinall because I think deep down he knows he'll lose. Making up false reasons is a piss take. Saying Tom is disrespectful and not worthy of a title shot - when in fact he's done more than what Jones did before he got himself a title shot.

Hope Stipe ends him tomorrow night - not giving Jones the satisfaction of teasing Aspinall even further.
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It would be a bit peculiar only to start disliking him recently when he's said and done a litany of things over the preceding decade that would've done the trick for most, if they were looking for something to dislike. I like and respect him as a fighter and don't want him to lose just because of the outside of the Octagon stuff. I want him to be tested against Stipe, Perreira, and Aspinall. If he runs the table on those three then he will go from among the goats, to proper all time goat of MMA.
 
I can see why Jones is ducking Aspinall. I don't think it's because he's scared, it's because he gets nothing from it.

Lose and it's "Jones isn't the GOAT" and win and it's "Aspinall was not good enough".

But at the same time, his legacy within the hardcore fans will take a slight hit for a while if he keeps fighting but not with Aspinall.
 
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