The MMA thread

Hernandez - BFA said:
Provocative - yes, as it was clearly done to get under Adesanya’s nerves. Quite common in fight build ups. But Adesanya got away with a lot of things like implying DDP isn’t truly African, calling him a “pink pig” (imagine if DDP called him the equivalent description?) etc.

Also the whole thing of trying to erase the fact he had servants. I was a fan of Adesanya before he became champ, then he started to get annoying and then became dislikable. Him losing will hopefully be a big forkful of humble for him.
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It is for a lot of fighters, not all. I would like to think that UFC is that big a brand now that it doesn't need this sort of bullshit to promote fights. Wishful thinking I admit.

9 times out of 10, fighters who have trash talked, hug and respect one another after the fight and that for me is so much more satisfying than seeing them insult one another. I understand drama and controversy will attract the broader public who don't watch UFC that often but I think it is irritating for those of us who just want to see fights for what they are. Some of the trash talking nowadays is so contrived you wonder why some of them don't just pursue a career in acting.

Hence why I love Whittaker, Pereira, Khabib, GSP, Islam and many others who just fight and don't feel the need to be controversial.

Islam and Volk for instance, so much admiration for one another before and after the fights. Amazing fights, everyone gets paid, everyone's happy.
 
predator said:
It is for a lot of fighters, not all. I would like to think that UFC is that big a brand now that it doesn't need this sort of bullshit to promote fights. Wishful thinking I admit.

9 times out of 10, fighters who have trash talked, hug and respect one another after the fight and that for me is so much more satisfying than seeing them insult one another. I understand drama and controversy will attract the broader public who don't watch UFC that often but I think it is irritating for those of us who just want to see fights for what they are. Some of the trash talking nowadays is so contrived you wonder why some of them don't just pursue a career in acting.

Hence why I love Whittaker, Pereira, Khabib, GSP, Islam and many others who just fight and don't feel the need to be controversial.

Islam and Volk for instance, so much admiration for one another before and after the fights. Amazing fights, everyone gets paid, everyone's happy.
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The issue is the UFC pay structure is largely built around how much hype prominent fighters can generate in terms of PPV buys. Conor wouldn't have made nearly as much if not for the WWE style persona he created. The shit talking is part in parcel of making more money, and as such, we shouldn't be surprised if a lot of prominent champs and leading contenders take advantage of it. There must however be a line drawn between hype and getting into physical altercations in hotels, or throwing large objects at buses, or making racially tinged remarks at fighters.
 
Raoul said:
The issue is the UFC pay structure is largely built around how much hype prominent fighters can generate in terms of PPV buys. Conor wouldn't have made nearly as much if not for the WWE style persona he created. The shit talking is part in parcel of making more money, and as such, we shouldn't be surprised if a lot of prominent champs and leading contenders take advantage of it. There must however be a line drawn between hype and getting into physical altercations in hotels, or throwing large objects at buses, or making racially tinged remarks at fighters.
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Agree with everything you said, it's a fact. The bolded bit is especially true. Some of the stuff Conor said to Khabib was simply disgusting.

Then again, more controversy, more views, more money. Khabib is a megastar and Conor helped him get there.

There are a few anomalies though such as GSP, Whittaker who are such polite men and have made loads of money and success in UFC whilst not being trash talkers.
 
predator said:
Agree with everything you said, it's a fact. The bolded bit is especially true. Some of the stuff Conor said to Khabib was simply disgusting.

Then again, more controversy, more views, more money. Khabib is a megastar and Conor helped him get there.

There are a few anomalies though such as GSP, Whittaker who are such polite men and have made loads of money and success in UFC whilst not being trash talkers.
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It's all relative but I bet the likes of McGregor, Sonnen, Colby, Diaz etc made a lot more money irrespective of success in the sport and longevity.

Obviously it's not the be all and end all but definitely being outspoken will make you a lot more money than being respectful in general.
 
predator said:
It is for a lot of fighters, not all. I would like to think that UFC is that big a brand now that it doesn't need this sort of bullshit to promote fights. Wishful thinking I admit.
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Whilst I agree as a general point, in this case I think clearly this has nothing to do with promotion. There was legitimate bad blood over what was said.

Kudos to both men for squashing it at the end of the fight, classy in victory and humble in defeat.
 
DannyCAFC said:
Whilst I agree as a general point, in this case I think clearly this has nothing to do with promotion. There was legitimate bad blood over what was said.

Kudos to both men for squashing it at the end of the fight, classy in victory and humble in defeat.
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Agreed, glad they squared it and left all the animosity in the cage.
 
Genuinely hilarious to me Izzy pointing to the ground like “let’s stand and fight”, eats 5-6 shots without landing one of his one, take down, DDP takes his back immediately and gets the tap all within 20 seconds.
 
We are live!!

GVsxlp-WQAAhYkb
 
T00lsh3d said:
I’m not, not with that card. You’ll have to do better :lol:
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:lol:

Fair play, but these underrated cards usually deliver some bangers.

Chinese Wang just murdered that Leonardo chick with a nice one punch KO. Second fastest finish in the FW division history.

Good post fight interview too.

 
Good win for Borralho. I love Cannonier but nice to have another contender in the mix at 185.

Wouldn't mind seeing him Vs Izzy.
 
Would Cain Velasquez have been a difficult matchup for Jones in his peak ?

Say, if instead of gifting Chael Sonnen a title shot through doing TUF, they did Jon X Cain for the HW belt in early 2013.
 
Luke1995 said:
Would Cain Velasquez have been a difficult matchup for Jones in his peak ?

Say, if instead of gifting Chael Sonnen a title shot through doing TUF, they did Jon X Cain for the HW belt in early 2013.
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I think Bones rises to his opponent and would have handled Cain. Maybe Aspinall has a chance as Bones has obviously aged and doesn't fight as much anymore but prime Bones (with picogram) is almost the perfect fighter.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
I think Bones rises to his opponent and would have handled Cain. Maybe Aspinall has a chance as Bones has obviously aged and doesn't fight as much anymore but prime Bones (with picogram) is almost the perfect fighter.
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Yes but the Cain who destroyed JDS seems utterly terryfing to share the cage with. Maybe that game plan would not have worked on Jones.

If you could pick one heavyweight in history to actually beat prime Bones on a perfect night is there any pick you could make with confidence ?
 
This genuinely has got me confused:

Should I discuss the UFC 5 game here or in the PS5 thread ?

I never took it there because it is obviously a very specific game so don't want to bother other type of gamers with that.
 
Luke1995 said:
Yes but the Cain who destroyed JDS seems utterly terryfing to share the cage with. Maybe that game plan would not have worked on Jones.

If you could pick one heavyweight in history to actually beat prime Bones on a perfect night is there any pick you could make with confidence ?
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Tommy Aspinall, the future goat heavyweight would be my pick.
 
Luke1995 said:
Would Cain Velasquez have been a difficult matchup for Jones in his peak ?

Say, if instead of gifting Chael Sonnen a title shot through doing TUF, they did Jon X Cain for the HW belt in early 2013.
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I think Cain before his loss against Werdum could have beaten Jones, had they faced off. He was a legit heavyweight against Jones, who - for the vast majority of his fights - had an overwhelming size and reach advantage over his opponents.

Moreover, Cain's wrestling was a factor, so it's not as if Jones would take Cain down at will if the stand-up wasn't going his way.

Having said that, who really knows. I didn't expect Cain to lose against Dos Santos the first time, and definitely didn't see him getting outclassed by Werdum.
 
Luke1995 said:
Yes but the Cain who destroyed JDS seems utterly terryfing to share the cage with. Maybe that game plan would not have worked on Jones.

If you could pick one heavyweight in history to actually beat prime Bones on a perfect night is there any pick you could make with confidence ?
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None with confidence but would like to see him fight Cain, Fedor and Ngannou. Those would have been fun fights in their prime.
Luke1995 said:
This genuinely has got me confused:

Should I discuss the UFC 5 game here or in the PS5 thread ?

I never took it there because it is obviously a very specific game so don't want to bother other type of gamers with that.
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Talk about it here if you want although I don't know if many play it. I used to but there was too many moves to learn so I gave up.
 
So, about the game...

First time I played I was like okay, who is the biggest dude in this ? Selected Stefan Struve and was sure I would dominate the fights but got KO'd in the contender series fight career over.

Then, tried some other fighters with different degrees of sucess and failure, but wanted to point out specifically how durable Anderson Silva is in the game

Managed to keep getting fights with him until 52 years old, if you're looking to have a long career take him or Strickland.
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
I think Cain before his loss against Werdum could have beaten Jones, had they faced off. He was a legit heavyweight against Jones, who - for the vast majority of his fights - had an overwhelming size and reach advantage over his opponents.

Moreover, Cain's wrestling was a factor, so it's not as if Jones would take Cain down at will if the stand-up wasn't going his way.

Having said that, who really knows. I didn't expect Cain to lose against Dos Santos the first time, and definitely didn't see him getting outclassed by Werdum.
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Yeah...

Reckon Oleksiy Oliynyk would have given Jones a scare on the ground he had some crazy submissions.
 
Luke1995 said:
Would Cain Velasquez have been a difficult matchup for Jones in his peak ?

Say, if instead of gifting Chael Sonnen a title shot through doing TUF, they did Jon X Cain for the HW belt in early 2013.
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They were different weight classes so its a bit hard to compare.

Jones is the most dominant and complete fighter we've seen, so even if he went in "heavy" to fight Cain, it would've been a great fight. Would Cain's wrestling been the difference ? Unlikely since despite his wrestling background, most of Cain's damage in his biggest wins featured his striking. The only exception was Lesnar which featured a mix of striking and wrestling.

Also worth noting (near) peak Cain was knocked out by JDS.

If you want a glimpse into how Jones would've fared against Cain, just watch the DC fights, since DC is also a big wrestling guy who trained with Cain, and is also considered one of the greats.
 
Raoul said:
They were different weight classes so its a bit hard to compare.

Jones is the most dominant and complete fighter we've seen, so even if he went in "heavy" to fight Cain, it would've been a great fight. Would Cain's wrestling been the difference ? Unlikely since despite his wrestling background, most of Cain's damage in his biggest wins featured his striking. The only exception was Lesnar which featured a mix of striking and wrestling.

Also worth noting (near) peak Cain was knocked out by JDS.

If you want a glimpse into how Jones would've fared against Cain, just watch the DC fights, since DC is also a big wrestling guy who trained with Cain, and is also considered one of the greats.
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I think Cain was slightly stronger than DC. Would the extra muscle have impacted clinch exchanges ? Jones always seems to be the stronger one.

Perhaps a better question then would be about Fedor fighting Cain. Somehow it feels like we've never truly seen Cain in the biggest fights he could possibly get.
 
Luke1995 said:
Yeah...

Reckon Oleksiy Oliynyk would have given Jones a scare on the ground he had some crazy submissions.
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Ladron de redcafe said:
I think Cain before his loss against Werdum could have beaten Jones, had they faced off. He was a legit heavyweight against Jones, who - for the vast majority of his fights - had an overwhelming size and reach advantage over his opponents.

Moreover, Cain's wrestling was a factor, so it's not as if Jones would take Cain down at will if the stand-up wasn't going his way.

Having said that, who really knows. I didn't expect Cain to lose against Dos Santos the first time, and definitely didn't see him getting outclassed by Werdum.
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I think this is a lot of post "Jones turned out to be a grade A bellend" revisionism or people simply didn't see him at his prime.

Prime Cain Velasquez was a pressure fighter who out-cardio'd all his HW opponents. He isn't going to do that vs Jones. Jones has a ridiculous record vs pressure fighters (DC, TRTor, Glover, Sonnen etc). Nobody is going to out-cardio Jones either, I don't think any camp will even think that is a viable strategy. Jones "struggles" more with long lanky rangy counter-strikers (Gus I, Reyes), not the Cain, get in your face, phone-booth, clinch style.

Cain is a very good offensive wrestler but his TDD isn't incredible. He got taken down by Brock, Cheick Kongo (lol) and Werdum (not exactly a good wrestler, pulls guard a lot of the time). DC was Cain's wrestling coach and DC got rag-dolled by Jones in the first fight, and got nowhere with his wrestling in the second.

Oliynyk would have had a "chance" if he fought 2012 Jones but since then Jones submission defensive and offensive grappling is just too much.

The only way to beat prime Jones is to knock him out in the early rounds and not get taken down before that.


Desert Eagle said:
Tommy Aspinall, the future goat heavyweight would be my pick.
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Overrated as hell, very fast striking, decent technically, apparently decent wrestling though we've never seen it. Ends a fight in round 1 but always eats big shots in the process. He isn't going to be HW Goat with a fighting style like that.

Nobody has seen his wrestling really, nobody has seen his ground game, his clinch fighting etc. All we've seen is very impressive knockouts against some one dimensional fighters. We know nothing about his cardio.


The only way to beat Prime Jones was to crack that chin so you need an outrageous power puncher who also had great take down defence, Peak Ubereem would be my bet. Ngannou would get taken down to be honest, Aspinall hasn't shown enough of his arsenal. You cannot beat prime Jones in a tactical 5 round out-point him fight.

Even then, it's a tossup because I've seen Jones eat flush uppercuts from DC and overhands from DC that knocked out Heavyweights, I've seen him eat flush headkicks to the temple and he wasn't even rocked. Cracking that chin is going to be hard.

Yeah knee in the face by prime Ubereem is the best option.
 
Luke1995 said:
I think Cain was slightly stronger than DC. Would the extra muscle have impacted clinch exchanges ? Jones always seems to be the stronger one.

Perhaps a better question then would be about Fedor fighting Cain. Somehow it feels like we've never truly seen Cain in the biggest fights he could possibly get.
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DC was Cain's coach at AKA.
 
Luke1995 said:
I think Cain was slightly stronger than DC. Would the extra muscle have impacted clinch exchanges ? Jones always seems to be the stronger one.

Perhaps a better question then would be about Fedor fighting Cain. Somehow it feels like we've never truly seen Cain in the biggest fights he could possibly get.
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You may be overrating Cain a bit to suggest he even warranted such fights. He was a very good fighter and good HW champ for a while, but his losses to JDS and Werdum, and eventually getting easily dispatched by Francis paint a picture of someone who struggled to remain great for a protracted period of time. His only claim to fame is the big win over the somewhat overhyped Lesnar and the JDS trilogy, one of which he lost.
 
Raoul said:
You may be overrating Cain a bit to suggest he even warranted such fights. He was a very good fighter and good HW champ for a while, but his losses to JDS and Werdum, and eventually getting easily dispatched by Francis. His only claim to fame is the big win over the somewhat overhyped Lesnar and the JDS trilogy, one of which he lost.
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Yeah, Cain was overrated as he was fighting in a really poor HW division.

Only decent guys were post-cycle Overeem, JDS, Bigfoot Silva and Werdum.
 
Raoul said:
You may be overrating Cain a bit to suggest he even warranted such fights. He was a very good fighter and good HW champ for a while, but his losses to JDS and Werdum, and eventually getting easily dispatched by Francis paint a picture of someone who struggled to remain great for a protracted period of time. His only claim to fame is the big win over the somewhat overhyped Lesnar and the JDS trilogy, one of which he lost.
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Cain's issues were injuries. He was not the same fighter by the time he stepped in with Ngannou. At his peak (and at sea level haha) he is undoubtedly in with a shout of being the best MMA HW of all-time H2H. He just doesn't have the type of longevity that Stipe has displayed.
 
DannyCAFC said:
Cain's issues were injuries. He was not the same fighter by the time he stepped in with Ngannou. At his peak (and at sea level haha) he is undoubtedly in with a shout of being the best MMA HW of all-time H2H. He just doesn't have the type of longevity that Stipe has displayed.
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Absolutely. He was a very good champ. I just don't put him on par with the likes of Jones, who beyond being a champ champ, is arguably one of the best ever and still undefeated (if you ask Dana that is).
 
Raoul said:
You may be overrating Cain a bit to suggest he even warranted such fights. He was a very good fighter and good HW champ for a while, but his losses to JDS and Werdum, and eventually getting easily dispatched by Francis paint a picture of someone who struggled to remain great for a protracted period of time. His only claim to fame is the big win over the somewhat overhyped Lesnar and the JDS trilogy, one of which he lost.
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Sure that could be true. I just remember that JDS's face looked like a red Shrek by the end of these fights. He ruined him.
 
DannyCAFC said:
Cain's issues were injuries. He was not the same fighter by the time he stepped in with Ngannou. At his peak (and at sea level haha) he is undoubtedly in with a shout of being the best MMA HW of all-time H2H. He just doesn't have the type of longevity that Stipe has displayed.
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Cain's win list is not that special though

JDS x 2
Travis Browne
Brock Lesnar
Bigfoot
An ancient Big Nog
 
Raoul said:
Absolutely. He was a very good champ. I just don't put him on par with the likes of Jones, who beyond being a champ champ, is arguably one of the best ever and still undefeated (if you ask Dana that is).
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You do that matchup with Matt Hamill 1000 times, it's 999 jones and 1 time Jones DQ.

It's a pretty funny "loss" given he spent half the fight in mount GNP
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Cain's win list is not that special though

JDS x 2
Travis Browne
Brock Lesnar
Bigfoot
An ancient Big Nog
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Who's is really at HW? There haven't been any greatly dominant champions like you have at a bunch of the other weights.

You could do this with anyone, this is the consensus most accomplished HW ever's resume:

1-1 with Ngannou
1-1 with JDS
Werdum
2-1 with DC (205'er)
post-USADA Overeem
Arlovski
Mark Hunt
 
DannyCAFC said:
Who's is really at HW? There haven't been any greatly dominant champions like you have at a bunch of the other weights.

You could do this with anyone, this is the consensus most accomplished HW ever's resume:

1-1 with Ngannou
1-1 with JDS
Werdum
2-1 with DC (205'er)
post-USADA Overeem
Arlovski
Mark Hunt
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Ngannou, Werdum, DC and Reem is already a much better resume than Cain.

Also, calling DC a 205'er is just intellectually dishonest man. DC only went down to 205 because a) He didn't want to have to fight Cain who was a close friend and his mentee and b) hated Jon Jones

DC is one of the greatest of all time. Something which nobody on Cains' resume can claim.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Ngannou, Werdum, DC and Reem is already a much better resume than Cain.

Also, calling DC a 205'er is just intellectually dishonest man. DC only went down to 205 because a) He didn't want to have to fight Cain who was a close friend and his mentee and b) hated Jon Jones

DC is one of the greatest of all time. Something which nobody on Cains' resume can claim.
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Have to agree with this. DC is a fecking animal in the cage. But Jones made him look ordinary. That takes some doing.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Ngannou, Werdum, DC and Reem is already a much better resume than Cain.

Also, calling DC a 205'er is just intellectually dishonest man. DC only went down to 205 because a) He didn't want to have to fight Cain who was a close friend and his mentee and b) hated Jon Jones

DC is one of the greatest of all time. Something which nobody on Cains' resume can claim.
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It wasn't an intention to belittle Stipe's resume or DC who is one of the GOAT's, I'm just saying we can pick holes in anyone's resume. You can say JDS wasn't a good win but he was on a great streak going into fight, defended the title, beat Stipe immediately after losing to Cain only 18 months before Stipe won the belt himself.,

This is despite the fact that you point you made was that Cain's resumé wasn't particularly deep, which was literally a point I'd already outlined in my post and didn't need argument.. I was stating an opinion that at peak performance Cain has the ability to beat pretty much anybody, but he wasn't able to stay healthy for long enough to prove that.
 
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