The fanbase's role in the erosion of standards

[hobbers]

I'm not buying that. How can it play a part when 50% of us wanted him sacked? Fans can influence owners and clubs for sure but in this case there was no fan pressure on Ineos. No white hankies or glazerout style demonstrations. They were given credit by the fans to make a decision either way and now they've chosen.

Latest Athletic article makes it pretty clear they were nervous about going against fan sentiment after the FA cup win.

We'll desperately need that fear of fan sentiment when ETH is sacked and Southgate is a free agent.

 

[Red Star One]

I understand that the majority of fans don't have the expectations of the Fergie era and the standards and expectations have slipped but there's a reason for that. I think fans need to be realistic in looking at our team and squad and realising we're not as good as we were and we're quite a way off challenging for major honours. Hopefully a change in the recruitment structure can change that but what do people expect with the current squad ? Do people think we'd win the treble if Pep came in tomorrow ?

No one is really expecting us to win the treble anytime soon, so I'd keep such straw men out of the discussion. What is worrying though is that we brought ETH in with clear expectations of improving our league position and eventually challenging for the title, but after couple of hundred of millions invested and two full seasons, we are further away from it than before ETH came in, and if you read the "next seasons expectations" thread, many fans seem to have lowered their expectations and would be now elated with a top4 challenge, with some fans seemingly okayish with us finishing 6-8th again, as long as we can blame it on injuries (yet we laugh at opposition fans doing the same thing) or if we win some minor trophy in a process. Change of a structure gives some hope, yes, but it is a bit ridiculous when we openly show our standards are constantly lowered and then act surprised that top young talents prefer to go elsewhere. I love United to the bits and it pains me to say it, but if I was a player there's no doubt I'd consider at least 4-5 teams in England as more ambitious, not to mention the more successful clubs overseas.

 

[The Mitcher]

I'm not buying that. How can it play a part when 50% of us wanted him sacked? Fans can influence owners and clubs for sure but in this case there was no fan pressure on Ineos. No white hankies or glazerout style demonstrations. They were given credit by the fans to make a decision either way and now they've chosen.

Because the FA Cup made the fickle goldfish memory having fans forget the entire season and a half that just happened right before their eyes.

 

[Zen86]

I understand that the majority of fans don't have the expectations of the Fergie era and the standards and expectations have slipped but there's a reason for that. I think fans need to be realistic in looking at our team and squad and realising we're not as good as we were and we're quite a way off challenging for major honours. Hopefully a change in the recruitment structure can change that but what do people expect with the current squad ? Do people think we'd win the treble if Pep came in tomorrow ?

The game is owned by oil states. Doesn’t really matter how big the club is, you’re an underdog if you’re not being bankrolled.

 

[thisisnottaken1]

Because the FA Cup made the fickle goldfish memory having fans forget the entire season and a half that just happened right before their eyes.

Nah. It definitely made the season a lot better but I still acknowledge that it was an absolute trainwreck and that we’ve been by and large pants since winning the league cup last year.

 

[the_cliff]

No one is really expecting us to win the treble anytime soon, so I'd keep such straw men out of the discussion. What is worrying though is that we brought ETH in with clear expectations of improving our league position and eventually challenging for the title, but after couple of hundred of millions invested and two full seasons, we are further away from it than before ETH came in, and if you read the "next seasons expectations" thread, many fans seem to have lowered their expectations and would be now elated with a top4 challenge, with some fans seemingly okayish with us finishing 6-8th again, as long as we can blame it on injuries (yet we laugh at opposition fans doing the same thing) or if we win some minor trophy in a process. Change of a structure gives some hope, yes, but it is a bit ridiculous when we openly show our standards are constantly lowered and then act surprised that top young talents prefer to go elsewhere. I love United to the bits and it pains me to say it, but if I was a player there's no doubt I'd consider at least 4-5 teams in England as more ambitious, not to mention the more successful clubs overseas.

Yes and this is the main point though. Without a good team you can't do much. Everyone annoyed at ineos for not sacking ETH but that's not the first issue that needs solving, let's say we got in Tuchel or Pep or Zidane or Ancelotti or even SAF out of retirement, we aren't in the position to challenge right now anyway. The whole sacking manager after manager only works when you're Abramovic's Chelsea or Madrid, when you already have a world class team and squad that can challenge in every competition. This is why I'm not so bothered about keeping ETH and not laying the blame on INEOS. Next season we're not challenging, with ETH, with Zidane, with SAF, with Ancelotti. We don't have one player that will start for Arsenal/City the two best teams in the league, that's how far away we are from them.

INEOS's real test is what happens in the transfer window and in terms of recruitment. We have a good window I'll up my expectations and have a positive outlook, have another terrible window and the future looks bleak. It's the harsh reality but it is the reality of the situation.

 

[The Mitcher]

Nah. It definitely made the season a lot better but I still acknowledge that it was an absolute trainwreck and that we’ve been by and large pants since winning the league cup last year.

That's absolutely the case, just look at the poll in the ETH thread. it was solid ETH out and then flipped within a day. That is our fanbase's problem.

 

[thisisnottaken1]

That's absolutely the case, just look at the poll in the ETH thread. it was solid ETH out and then flipped within a day. That is our fanbase's problem.

Yeah, I think people are letting that one game get to them. I’m a bit guilty of it myself, but I had my mind made up about wanting him gone even if we won it. Football fans can be very volatile.

 

[romufc]

Yes and this is the main point though. Without a good team you can't do much. Everyone annoyed at ineos for not sacking ETH but that's not the first issue that needs solving, let's say we got in Tuchel or Pep or Zidane or Ancelotti or even SAF out of retirement, we aren't in the position to challenge right now anyway. The whole sacking manager after manager only works when you're Abramovic's Chelsea or Madrid, when you already have a world class team and squad that can challenge in every competition. This is why I'm not so bothered about keeping ETH and not laying the blame on INEOS. Next season we're not challenging, with ETH, with Zidane, with SAF, with Ancelotti.

INEOS's real test is what happens in the transfer window and in terms of recruitment. We have a good window I'll up my expectations and have a positive outlook, have another terrible window and the future looks bleak. It's the harsh reality but it is the reality of the situation.

Thank you.

This is it, I keep seing fans bark on standards but does anyone expect us to challenge?

You can put anyone in charge of this club, no one will put money on us challenging. There is the problem, we are not good enough to challenge.

 

[Desert Eagle]

That's absolutely the case, just look at the poll in the ETH thread. it was solid ETH out and then flipped within a day. That is our fanbase's problem.

Maybe the mods can confirm but I thought it moved around 5-8%? Hardly this avalanche of support.

 

[hobbers]

Maybe the mods can confirm but I thought it moved around 5-8%? Hardly this avalanche of support.

It went from 15-85 after Palace to 52-48 after the FA cup final.

 

[The Mitcher]

It went from 15-85 after Palace to 52-48 after the FA cup final.

I don't think it was ever 15-85. It was 55-45 ten hag out. But it was still a stupid fickle reaction.

 

[The Mitcher]

Maybe the mods can confirm but I thought it moved around 5-8%? Hardly this avalanche of support.

It was still a complete swing and some of them even admitted they should have known better and did it purely through feelings and that's it.

 

[hobbers]

I don't think it was ever 15-85. It was 55-45 ten hag out. But it was still a stupid fickle reaction.

No it started out as being about 15-85 after 500 or so votes when it was last reset, settled at around 25-75 for a while, and then after the Newcastle and Brighton wins came down to more like 45-55.

 

[TheReligion]

Not really. Your viewpoint is an indicator of an erosion in standards of what a fan should be.

That’s not being all Top Red or whatever people say.

8th and an FA Cup win that saw us humble/embarass Liverpool and beat this City team in the final…

Far better than a season finishing 4th, with a quarter final CL exit and similar in both domestic cups.

Of course our expectations should be to win the biggest prizes. But celebrating minor victories for a few years isn’t some small time mentality. It’s just perspective.

Good post.

Hopefully some take note.

 

[alexthelion]

We rotated out. Our golden period was over when fergies retired. The reality hit for me a year before he went. Once he goes, we're on the slide. I just never saw how far down we would go.

Same after Sir Matt. This just feels like a re-run of those years.

 

[Partridge]

Same after Sir Matt. This just feels like a re-run of those years.

Agreed.

 

[Wumminator]

I’ve just read a post here suggesting that the reason they kept Ten Hag is because of fan sentiment so I genuinely have no idea what this thread is about. The Athletic have literally posted suggesting the owners are listening to our fans by keeping a successful manager, so what else are we supposed to do?

 

[Rajma]

Totally agree with the OP and ETH staying will again be largely down to the fan sentiment. INEOS is basically the same dick just in another hand.

 

[moses]

Totally agree with the OP and ETH staying will again be largely down to the fan sentiment. INEOS is basically the same dick just in another hand.

So owners listening to the fans is now a bad thing? I always thought owners not listening to the fans was a bad thing.

Or if they do listen to the fans they should listen to the fans who hate the players, the manager and the owners?

Awful thread.

 

[Wumminator]

So owners listening to the fans is now a bad thing? I always thought owners not listening to the fans was a bad thing.

Or if they do listen to the fans they should listen to the fans who hate the players, the manager and the owners?

Awful thread.

Yep.

if you actually think this, you’re on the internet too much and have lost your head.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

So owners listening to the fans is now a bad thing? I always thought owners not listening to the fans was a bad thing.

There's a balance between the two. Owners should listen to fans but shouldn't indulge all their reactionary desires. That's how we end up with someone like Woodward blowing all our money on flavor of the month signings.

 

[moses]

There's a balance between the two. Owners should listen to fans but shouldn't indulge all their reactionary desires. That's how we end up with someone like Woodward blowing all our money on flavor of the month signings.

Part of the fanbase and the away support have been behind the team and manager all season. You're dismissing their support as a 'reactionary desire' just because you want the manager sacked.

Its tricky to see what a lot of people get from being football supporters other than use it as a medium to vent frustration.

 

[moses]

Yep.

if you actually think this, you’re on the internet too much and have lost your head.

It's surreal. And tedious to read. The armchair supporters of previous generations just shouted their superior knowledge at the TV, now we have to read about how they could run and manage the club. And how Manchester United and their fans have lower standards than user23445 aged 32 posting from the box room of his parents house in Cork.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Part of the fanbase and the away support have been behind the team and manager all season. You're dismissing their support as a 'reactionary desire' just because you want the manager sacked.

Wrong. I'm calling it "reactionary" because that's what I see on this forum: huge swings in sentiment based on the latest result (e.g., the poll constantly shifting).

You're assuming bad faith because like so many others on here, you assume everyone who disagrees with you on the manager isn't a "true" supporter.

 

[Wumminator]

Wrong. I'm calling it "reactionary" because that's what I see on this forum: huge swings in sentiment based on the latest result (e.g., the poll constantly shifting).

You're assuming bad faith because like so many others on here, you assume everyone who disagrees with you on the manager isn't a "true" supporter.

The poll didn’t constantly shift.

 

[moses]

Wrong. I'm calling it "reactionary" because that's what I see on this forum: huge swings in sentiment based on the latest result (e.g., the poll constantly shifting).

You're assuming bad faith because like so many others on here, you assume everyone who disagrees with you on the manager isn't a "true" supporter.

Well it's not reactionary is what I'm saying. And the assumption I do make is that people who spend most of their time almost exclusively criticising the team and players and owners are visibly not supporting them.

I don't think that way because I don't agree with their viewpoint. It just reads that way. Joyless and constantly critical.

But also and more to the point, one can disagree without constantly insulting the club, the owners, the players and other supporters.

People who are ok with the manager staying are frequently called deluded and now reactionary. By you just now, so get off your high horse.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Well it's not reactionary is what I'm saying. And the assumption I do make is that people who spend most of their time almost exclusively criticising the team and players and owners are visibly not supporting them.

I don't think that way because I don't agree with their viewpoint. It just reads that way.

But also and more to the point, one can disagree without constantly insulting the club, the owners, the players and other supporters.

People who are ok with the manager staying are frequently called deluded and now reactionary. By you just now, so get off your high horse.

I think you're misunderstanding. I'm not saying people who want the manager to stay are reactionary. What I'm referring to as reactionary behavior is literally that - opinions based on immediate reactions that change at the drop of a hat. Whether it's relating to the manager, a player, a potential transfer, etc.

Those are the types of opinions ownership shouldn't indulge. That's how we end up blowing our entire budget on a last-minute panic signing because "hey it's not my money, just get it done".

 

[moses]

I think you're misunderstanding. I'm not saying people who want the manager to stay are reactionary. What I'm referring to as reactionary behavior is literally that - opinions based on immediate reactions that change at the drop of a hat. Whether it's relating to the manager, a player, a potential transfer, etc.

Those are the types of opinions ownership shouldn't indulge.

I'm sure if they were indulging the fans at all it'd be a bit more scientific than them just logging on to Redcafe at a time where the poll said not all of us hated him at that moment.

 

[Godfather]

I don't think it was ever 15-85. It was 55-45 ten hag out. But it was still a stupid fickle reaction.

It was almost 80% out from what I remember

 

[Sarni]

I'm not buying that. How can it play a part when 50% of us wanted him sacked? Fans can influence owners and clubs for sure but in this case there was no fan pressure on Ineos. No white hankies or glazerout style demonstrations. They were given credit by the fans to make a decision either way and now they've chosen.

It was 50% on here. Looking through other forums, twitter or Reddit it definitely seemed much more heavily tilted towards ‘keep’, even before the final. The backlash if he were sacked would definitely be there, whether significant enough for owners to have to worry about I’m not sure though.

 

[moses]

It went from 15-85 after Palace to 52-48 after the FA cup final.

What was it before the Palace defeat?

So basically the massive shift after the Palace defeat wasn't reactionary but the readjustment back after the cup final win was?

And your conclusion based on skewed data is our fans are dicks and the owners are idiots for looking at an even smaller spread of data than you did?

You think that's the reality?


Come on.

 

[stevoc]

So owners listening to the fans is now a bad thing? I always thought owners not listening to the fans was a bad thing.

Or if they do listen to the fans they should listen to the fans who hate the players, the manager and the owners?

Awful thread.

Those aren't mutually exclusive groups to be fair.

The vast majority of United fans hate the Glazers, Ineos weren't too popular amongst the support recently because of their perceived dithering with the managers decision and the possibility they could sack Ten Hag.

On the players, I don't know if there's another fanbase where large sections of it seem to constantly dislike/hate/despise the majority of their own players and this will be fans who were for and against Ten Hag staying. Usually fans who are pro manager seem to hate a lot of the players and blame them for trying to get the manager sacked or for getting managers sacked in the past. Conversely a lot of fans who dislike whoever the current manager happens to be seem to back the players more.

Ultimately it's a good thing if the owners listen to the fans and take their opinions on board as part of the decision making process (the Glazers never did). But I think most people would agree they shouldn't be basing their decisions on fan sentiment. (not saying they have in the case of Ten Hag staying).

 

[ForeverRed1]

It’s not that my expectations have slipped at all, it’s that I’ve reasoned where we are at.

We don’t run like a club that is going to win the big accolades. We don’t give the fans what they deserve despite literally being the best fan base in the world (the most loyal of a club this size).

Just because we’re man united doesn’t mean we’re entitled to anything. You’ve got to operate like a winning club to actually be one.

It’s bigger than any manager imo. It’s not standards slipping, it’s the reality of how badly we have been run and how far we have fallen. It won’t change until it is changed from the top down.

ineos offers hope but we got to hold out and see what they do now over the next couple seasons.

 

[Withnail]

There's a balance between the two. Owners should listen to fans but shouldn't indulge all their reactionary desires. That's how we end up with someone like Woodward blowing all our money on flavor of the month signings.

It wasn't reactionary at all and the premise of this thread is a bit silly in my view.

However, the owners took a coup of weeks after the Cup Final to take a look at the market and let the dust settle, then based on what they knew of Ten Hag they decided to stick with him. It's not the Glazers 2.0 and they didn't dither or jump on a band wagon as some are suggesting.

Look at who Bayern and Chelsea got in for proof of who was available. They are serious punts.

 

[moses]

Those aren't mutually exclusive groups to be fair.

The vast majority of United fans hate the Glazers, Ineos weren't too popular amongst the support recently because of their perceived dithering with the managers decision and the possibility they could sack Ten Hag.

On the players, I don't know if there's another fanbase where large sections of it seem to constantly dislike/hate/despise the majority of their own players and this will be fans who were for and against Ten Hag staying. Usually fans who are pro manager seem to hate a lot of the players and blame them for trying to get the manager sacked or for getting managers sacked in the past. Conversely a lot of fans who dislike whoever the current manager happens to be seem to back the players more.

Ultimately it's a good thing if the owners listen to the fans and take their opinions on board as part of the decision making process (the Glazers never did). But I think most people would agree they shouldn't be basing their decisions on fan sentiment. (not saying they have in the case of Ten Hag staying).

Agreed. There was one line that said something about the fans reaction on FA cup final day being a factor. A factor among a list of factors, but suddenly now we have owners to hate because they are idiots who just reacted to fan sentiment. Owners to hate, alongside the players and manager we hate. Great.

 

[romufc]

It’s not that my expectations have slipped at all, it’s that I’ve reasoned where we are at.

We don’t run like a club that is going to win the big accolades. We don’t give the fans what they deserve despite literally being the best fan base in the world (the most loyal of a club this size).

Just because we’re man united doesn’t mean we’re entitled to anything. You’ve got to operate like a winning club to actually be one.

It’s bigger than any manager imo. It’s not standards slipping, it’s the reality of how badly we have been run and how far we have fallen. It won’t change until it is changed from the top down.

ineos offers hope but we got to hold out and see what they do now over the next couple seasons.

This.

I know no one likes to hear this but we are not entitled to win trophies. It is not handed to the teams that dominated in the past that.

People talk about managers but this is beyond the manager, if you want to be the best team winning trophies, you have to be the best in all aspects, top to bottom.

Unfortunately, our fans only look at the manager and not the mismanagement of the football club over the years, where we dont have the best facilities or infrastructure.

The problem is many fans are stuck in the past, when in reality to be at the top of the mountain you have to move with the times as well.

 

[Hammondo]

This.

I know no one likes to hear this but we are not entitled to win trophies. It is not handed to the teams that dominated in the past that.

People talk about managers but this is beyond the manager, if you want to be the best team winning trophies, you have to be the best in all aspects, top to bottom.

Unfortunately, our fans only look at the manager and not the mismanagement of the football club over the years, where we dont have the best facilities or infrastructure.

The problem is many fans are stuck in the past, when in reality to be at the top of the mountain you have to move with the times as well.

100 percent but the manager has control of certain standards on the pitch, and it didn't really look like there were any.

 

[romufc]

100 percent but the manager has control of certain standards on the pitch, and it didn't really look like there were any.

Correct, he wants to win trophies, that is what this manager wants. He keeps saying good isnt good enough, its all about winning.

Mitigating circumstances this season but no fan I have seen here has excused him for his mistakes.

People think backing the manager means blindly but no, his talent ID is rubbish and his ste up in most part last season was rubbish. It needs to be improved massively.

 

[Hammondo]

Correct, he wants to win trophies, that is what this manager wants. He keeps saying good isnt good enough, its all about winning.

Mitigating circumstances this season but no fan I have seen here has excused him for his mistakes.

People think backing the manager means blindly but no, his talent ID is rubbish and his ste up in most part last season was rubbish. It needs to be improved massively.

I didn't say any of that though.