The fanbase's role in the erosion of standards

[Crimson King]

This.

I know no one likes to hear this but we are not entitled to win trophies. It is not handed to the teams that dominated in the past that.

People talk about managers but this is beyond the manager, if you want to be the best team winning trophies, you have to be the best in all aspects, top to bottom.

Unfortunately, our fans only look at the manager and not the mismanagement of the football club over the years, where we dont have the best facilities or infrastructure.

The problem is many fans are stuck in the past, when in reality to be at the top of the mountain you have to move with the times as well.

We also have to remember that we were a very well run club at one point which led to and then built upon a lot of success. Unfortunately, that success led to a hostile takeover by vulture capitalists who used the legacy of that success as their personal piggy bank.

Whereas City were bought to be a PR machine. The best way to do that is by attracting the best players, playing attractive football and winning trophies. Their owners have more money than God. The only reason they have to show that they make any money at all is because the rules say they have to, and even then they've flaunted and broken those rules.

I personally don't want the latter to own United, even though it's a better guarantee of success, which means I just have to hope for a better version of the former. Someone who values success on the pitch as well as off of it. I think SJR does value that, but it's going to take time in a race we're already behind in, and our biggest rival have a huge wealth advantage on top of that.

 

[Mockney]

It was still a complete swing and some of them even admitted they should have known better and did it purely through feelings and that's it.

No it started out as being about 15-85 after 500 or so votes when it was last reset, settled at around 25-75 for a while, and then after the Newcastle and Brighton wins came down to more like 45-55.

So the negative ones were the correct fickle emotional reaction, but the positive ones were the incorrect fickle emotional reaction?

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

The on-line fans seem more toxic for some reason. And there is certainly a 'spoilt' section of support who want instant success....it's the same at most clubs.

At the majority of games the support has been consistently positive.

A few dickheads amongst the 70,000 but that is normal from that demographic.

 

[Yagami]

The on-line fans seem more toxic for some reason. And there is certainly a 'spoilt' section of support who want instant success....it's the same at most clubs.

At the majority of games the support has been consistently positive.

A few dickheads amongst the 70,000 but that is normal from that demographic.

As a Mancunian who, like yourself, has been going to games for decades, I couldn't disagree more.

What's the worst an online fan does? Insults our players, owners, etc? Well, not only do match going fans say things so much worse in person, they actively do stupid stuff, too. Like invading Old Trafford before a game against Liverpool, attacking Ed Woodward's house, fighting each other at games.

You can say "a few dickheads" but it's a fair few dickheads more than the online fanbase which gets an unnecessary bad wrap from my fellow match goers.

 

[hobbers]

So the negative ones were the correct fickle emotional reaction, but the positive ones were the incorrect fickle emotional reaction?

No. The negative ones were correct because they will have been based on 14 months of shite performances and embarrassing results.

The positive ones were fickle and emotional and will likely end up costing the club dearly because they were based on one game of football.

 

[Stroll with the Stars]

We also have to remember that we were a very well run club at one point which led to and then built upon a lot of success. Unfortunately, that success led to a hostile takeover by vulture capitalists who used the legacy of that success as their personal piggy bank.

Whereas City were bought to be a PR machine. The best way to do that is by attracting the best players, playing attractive football and winning trophies. Their owners have more money than God. The only reason they have to show that they make any money at all is because the rules say they have to, and even then they've flaunted and broken those rules.

I personally don't want the latter to own United, even though it's a better guarantee of success, which means I just have to hope for a better version of the former. Someone who values success on the pitch as well as off of it. I think SJR does value that, but it's going to take time in a race we're already behind in, and our biggest rival have a huge wealth advantage on top of that.

Spot on. The effects of the leveraged buyout and 19 years of Glazer incompetence won't be reversed overnight.

 

[moses]

No. The negative ones were correct because they will have been based on 14 months of shite performances and embarrassing results.

The positive ones were fickle and emotional and will likely end up costing the club dearly because they were based on one game of football.

But they weren't based on 14 months. You quoted the poll numbers after a big swing towards ETH out, post the Palace debacle.

 

[nickm]

No one is really expecting us to win the treble anytime soon, so I'd keep such straw men out of the discussion. What is worrying though is that we brought ETH in with clear expectations of improving our league position and eventually challenging for the title, but after couple of hundred of millions invested and two full seasons, we are further away from it than before ETH came in

The error we made, that we did not really take on board before ETH was appointed, was that ETH was never going to be able to do that alone. We needed a management team, not just a manager, because football is too specialised and technical now, for one person. Our expectations were right but our methods were wrong. We signed a lot of good managers, who all failed because the structure was wrong. So let's get the structure right and see if that makes a difference.

 

[hobbers]

But they weren't based on 14 months. You quoted the poll numbers after a big swing towards ETH out, post the Palace debacle.

There wasnt a big swing, the poll was reset. They were trending out more and more with each reset.

Also, I dont give a shit about United fan polls. It's only relevant because the Athletic articles and others said Ineos were influenced by fan sentiment. If we had competent owners it wouldnt be relevant.

 

[TheLord]

I'd think that, by in large, we have the most tolerant, patient fanbase among all European top sides - sometimes to the detriment of the club's progress. It surely affects some decisions like firing the manager (timlely), for instance.

 

[frostbite]

This is the 13th page, and SAF finished 13th once. Coincidence?

 

[moses]

There wasnt a big swing, the poll was reset. They were trending out more and more with each reset.

Also, I dont give a shit about United fan polls. It's only relevant because the Athletic articles and others said Ineos were influenced by fan sentiment. If we had competent owners it wouldnt be relevant.

It was one section of one line listing different factors and lots of fans ran with it to hate the owners. Winning trophies should be a factor. I can't believe that needs to be stated.

 

[stevoc]

Agreed. There was one line that said something about the fans reaction on FA cup final day being a factor. A factor among a list of factors, but suddenly now we have owners to hate because they are idiots who just reacted to fan sentiment. Owners to hate, alongside the players and manager we hate. Great.

A lot of people on here read headlines without reading further and take them as gospel. And then proceed to overreact to them.

I blame social media for the most part. It's built an instant reaction culture, which we're probably all guilty of to verying degrees.

 

[LawmanMan]

Bar the fans jumping on Ferguson’s successor in the space of under a season, I don’t see how fans can be blamed for anything. Fans aren’t out there taking training or buying players.

Going after Moyes so quickly played a large part in killing the unique culture of the club. Having Woodward in charge was basically like having an arsonist in charge of looking after an art gallery.

 

[lex talionis]

Bar the fans jumping on Ferguson’s successor in the space of under a season, I don’t see how fans can be blamed for anything. Fans aren’t out there taking training or buying players.

Going after Moyes so quickly played a large part in killing the unique culture of the club. Having Woodward in charge was basically like having an arsonist in charge of looking after an art gallery.

But Moyes actually was in over his head the moment he took the job. The endless dithering over scouting reports, worship of Jagielka, the panic buy of Fellaini for more than we could have him for the week before, the horrifying tactics, the blank stare at journalists, the defeat after defeat and deteriorating standards of play.

Blame Ferguson for Moyes and if you must Woodward as well, but not the fans.

 

[LankyHoggie]

But Moyes actually was in over his head the moment he took the job. The endless dithering over scouting reports, worship of Jagielka, the panic buy of Fellaini for more than we could have him for the week before, the horrifying tactics, the blank stare at journalists, the defeat after defeat and deteriorating standards of play.

Blame Ferguson for Moyes and if you must Woodward as well, but not the fans.

Total hindsight, I know, since I was against Moyes succeeding Sir Alex, however, we probably would’ve been in a far better place if Moyes stayed for 2-3 more seasons.

Moyes had an excellent transfer record both at Everton and West Ham, according to all reports Kroos was basically a done deal.
Even the two players Moyes signed (Mata and Fellaini) provided us with memorable moments and contributed to the FA Cup and Europa League wins further down the line.

Also, regarding Jagielka, Rio Ferdinand said recently those rumors about the Jagielka videos were total nonsense.
I think it was Vidic who said that the issues with Moyes were him not being certain how he wanted to play (press high / mid block / low block), but I reckon a lot of the dithering both in playing style and transfers had a lot to do with the length of contract he was given.

Either way, we’ll never know, but I am certain Moyes would’ve put the LvG / Jose / Ole money to far far better use.

 

[Partridge]

The furore of online fans is to be expected given the dross we have seen for the last 10 years. I can't speak for others, but the "Disney world for adults" message still irritates me..the succession of idiots for managers and players we have gone through is mental.

 

[NLunited]

The erosion of standards: it all depends on what you think those standards are.

Football has not been the first consideration at MU since the Glazers took over. It all starts from there.

As one of the biggest clubs in the world, we should be challenging for the title every year. However, that is not possible right now.

Saying that is not an ‚erosion of standards‘, but acknowledging that the club has been mismanaged for over ten years, with dire consequences.

Fixing that will take a lot of time (realistically: about five years). It looks like we are starting to be run as a football club again since INEOS came in.

It is unhelpful to keep harping on about standards during this process, unless of course INEOS does not know what it is doing. So far, we have appointed widely respected people at the top.

Spoiled brat behaviour will keep us in trouble longer, or at least make the process more unpleasant. Support the club.

 

[Sarni]

Total hindsight, I know, since I was against Moyes succeeding Sir Alex, however, we probably would’ve been in a far better place if Moyes stayed for 2-3 more seasons.

Moyes had an excellent transfer record both at Everton and West Ham, according to all reports Kroos was basically a done deal.
Even the two players Moyes signed (Mata and Fellaini) provided us with memorable moments and contributed to the FA Cup and Europa League wins further down the line.

Also, regarding Jagielka, Rio Ferdinand said recently those rumors about the Jagielka videos were total nonsense.
I think it was Vidic who said that the issues with Moyes were him not being certain how he wanted to play (press high / mid block / low block), but I reckon a lot of the dithering both in playing style and transfers had a lot to do with the length of contract he was given.

Either way, we’ll never know, but I am certain Moyes would’ve put the LvG / Jose / Ole money to far far better use.

The notion that Moyes would have come good if he were given more time, that has been repeated on here numerous times, is something I honestly can’t wrap my head around. It is a concept once more built around the idea that the only factor that plays any role in manager becoming good is time, and that literally any manager is going to be great if they are allowed multiple years.

He took a team that just won the league to 7th, was completely out of his depth and no amount of time would have fixed that. If anything he was allowed to stay for too long which meant we agreed to write off a season in which we could have very plausibly still made it to a CL spot if we had pulled the trigger earlier.

LVG was a better manager for us, while obviously still being nowhere near good enough and arguably dragging us back as well.

 

[LankyHoggie]

The notion that Moyes would have come good if he were given more time, that has been repeated on here numerous times, is something I honestly can’t wrap my head around. It is a concept once more built around the idea that the only factor that plays any role in manager becoming good is time, and that literally any manager is going to be great if they are allowed multiple years.

He took a team that just won the league to 7th, was completely out of his depth and no amount of time would have fixed that. If anything he was allowed to stay for too long which meant we agreed to write off a season in which we could have very plausibly still made it to a CL spot if we had pulled the trigger earlier.

LVG was a better manager for us, while obviously still being nowhere near good enough and arguably dragging us back as well.

I never said Moyes would be winning titles or European cups if he was given more time, or turn into an elite manager.
I was specifically talking about his transfer record, and I do believe that Moyes would’ve built a far better team than LvG did with the same funds.

Bypassing LvG and going from Sir Alex to even the same Mourinho via 2-3 years of Moyes, would’ve been far more organic rebuild than hiring a manager with an entirely different football philosophy.

I remember Mourinho saying that he would’ve never sold some of the players LVG got rid of.

Understandably, that Moyes season turned sour quickly, and the club had no other choice but to sack him, but again, in total hindsight, none of us at the time knew or expected how bad the next 10 years were going to get.

 

[LawmanMan]

I never said Moyes would be winning titles or European cups if he was given more time, or turn into an elite manager.
I was specifically talking about his transfer record, and I do believe that Moyes would’ve built a far better team than LvG did with the same funds.

Bypassing LvG and going from Sir Alex to even the same Mourinho via 2-3 years of Moyes, would’ve been far more organic rebuild than hiring a manager with an entirely different football philosophy.

I remember Mourinho saying that he would’ve never sold some of the players LVG got rid of.

Understandably, that Moyes season turned sour quickly, and the club had no other choice but to sack him, but again, in total hindsight, none of us at the time knew or expected how bad the next 10 years were going to get.

They did have a choice. People just want instant gratification. The Moyes season simply underlined how weak the squad had gotten under Sir Alex. But a few good quality signings would have made more of a difference than the profligacy under LVG.

 

[Rista]

Finishing 7th with a squad of champions - "fans just want instant gratification". Gotta love how some things never change.

 

[LordSpud]

I think there's a difference in dropping of standards Vs accepting where we are at the moment. I actually think it's quite admirable to accept this current shite for what it is and perhaps it's foolish to hope and assume that good times will return. But this entitled view that a load of people share that we should be top even now just seems pre-Klopp RAWKish where despite not being anywhere near the title for 20 odd years, a large portion of their weird fanbase still saw them as the top boys.

Be humble people.

Actually further to that, the Pool fans believe they are the best team in the league even now. One title in 30 years.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Moyes treated the United job like he was still at Everton. I cringed when he said City are the level we aspire to be at, or that Liverpool were the favourites going into the game. That underdog mentality was never going to translate well with a squad full of multiple PL winners.

 

[MancunianAngels]

This thread is essentially full of people who wouldn't say boo to a goose in real life moaning that people who spend their entire lives watching United aren't trying to burn the ground down because we aren't as good as we were a few years ago.

 

[Hammondo]

Moyes treated the United job like he was still at Everton. I cringed when he said City are the level we aspire to be at, or that Liverpool were the favourites going into the game. That underdog mentality was never going to translate well with a squad full of multiple PL winners.

But it's clearly obvious that we were already behind by then.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

But it's clearly obvious that we were already behind by then.

It was clear that we were behind under Ole, but whenever an interviewer tried to bait him into saying that, he'd respond with something like "when you're Manchester United, you go into every game expecting to win". That mentality is partly why his record vs the top 4 was far better than Moyes'.

 

[Hammondo]

It was clear that we were behind under Ole, but whenever an interviewer tried to bait him into saying that, he'd respond with something like "when you're Manchester United, you go into every game expecting to win". That mentality is partly why his record vs the top 4 was far better than Moyes'.

Yea but him not facing up to reality is why there was no progression, only regression. It's all nice to be arrogant and have a big mouth, but that doesn't help you improve, it's just a hype job.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Yea but him not facing up to reality is why there was no progression, only regression. It's all nice to be arrogant and have a big mouth, but that doesn't help you improve, it's just a hype job.

We marginally progressed during Ole's first two seasons, whereas we only regressed under Moyes. Ole didn't treat United like he was managing Molde, whereas Moyes treated United like Everton. Hence there was no belief from the get-go.

 

[mintyred]

We marginally progressed during Ole's first two seasons, whereas we only regressed under Moyes. Ole didn't treat United like he was managing Molde, whereas Moyes treated United like Everton. Hence there was no belief from the get-go.

He's been managing Everton for a long time so of course there is going to be an adjustment period. Ole had support from Phelan and co, otherwise, he probably would have done what he'd done before at Molde n Cardiff.

 

[Hammondo]

We marginally progressed during Ole's first two seasons, whereas we only regressed under Moyes. Ole didn't treat United like he was managing Molde, whereas Moyes treated United like Everton. Hence there was no belief from the get-go.

We didn't at all progress under ole, we simply stagnated at best going nowhere. Good managers don't need to bullshit, or rely on a hype job.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

We didn't at all progress under ole, we simply stagnated at best going nowhere. Good managers don't need to bullshit, or rely on a hype job.

He's the only United manager post-Fergie to achieve back-to-back top 4 finishes.

 

[ArmaDino]

He's the only United manager post-Fergie to achieve back-to-back top 4 finishes.

He's also the only manager to be part of the club for more than 1 year and not win a trophy. You have that as well.

 

[glazed]

If all the fans had refused to give their money to the club while the Glazers were in charge, the Glazers would have had to sell the club. But instead they continued to buy the product at the same rate even though it was objectively poorer quality. This is what economists call inelastic demand. Make a shit chocolate bar you go bust. Make a shit football team you make more money.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

He's also the only manager to be part of the club for more than 1 year and not win a trophy. You have that as well.

We were talking about progression/regression. If trophies are the best marker for progress, then I guess Ten Hag made progress last season.

 

[ArmaDino]

We were talking about progression/regression. If trophies are the best marker for progress, then I guess Ten Hag made progress last season.

Neither are league positions really.

LVG finished 4th then 5th.

Mourinho finished 6th, 2nd and would have finished 6-8th if he stayed.

Ole finished 3rd, 2nd, and would have finished in the bottom half if he stayed.

So in a way, yes you can say that ETH made progress being the first manager since SAF to win back to back trophies.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Neither are league positions really.

LVG finished 4th then 5th.

Mourinho finished 6th, 2nd and would have finished 6-8th if he stayed.

Ole finished 3rd, 2nd, and would have finished in the bottom half if he stayed.

So in a way, yes you can say that ETH made progress being the first manager since SAF to win back to back trophies.

based on what? We were 7th in the table when he was sacked.

 

[ArmaDino]

based on what? We were 7th in the table when he was sacked.

Based on the fact that fecking relegation fodder Watford put 4 past us. The reason we were 7 was because we started the season very strongly, but fizzled out shortly after.

The way our results were going at the time, we would have finished 11th at best.

 

[Juice Juiced]

Moyes was trash.

And if you wanna read good story about fans?
Let me tell you one. Our local club was kinda good in Yugoslavian league. Would win cup or be around...

War happened club is strugling, they first kill our basketball team...
Man was coming to save us...But fans didn't like him because he wasn't from this town. Fans throw fitties... They get what they wanted... Club is now yo-yo, and all of those fans... Don't go to games anymore. Fan's are morons.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

You can see the erosion by the sheer amount of we should keep posts about our players. Just ridiculous