The Biden Presidency

Yes, I get that, but why :lol: ?

To rephrase my original question: What was the original logic behind giving Presidents the power to pardon?

To balance out the judicial branch. The entire thinking behind the US system is to obtain a precarious balance between the powers of the judicial, executive and legislative branches of government. The founders were afraid of one branch being infiltrated and resulting in tyranny. The pardon power is part of that.

If the judiciary was infiltrated and a group managed to gain too much power in the courts, they might try to abuse their position by forcing lawmakers into making legislative decisions through threat of criminal persecution. The pardon power takes away that risk. Another point, made salient by President Washington is that justice at its best is also blind, and through the pardon power the president can take political and national security considerations into account. Washington's first pardon signalled that the pardon power should generally be used by the exectuive branch to strive to apply "tenderness and mercy on government" whenever possible.

The pardon power is not unlimited though, during the discussion of its implementation its limits was an important topic. In their view the threat to use the power to adhere to, give comfort and aid to an enemy of the USA, or cover up the president's own illegal activities by pardoning people he advised to comit crimes for him - could in itself be grounds for impeachment. Which is where the counter balance to pardons come in. The legislative branch can impeach a president for using, or even threatening to use, pardon powers to cover up crimes he himself is connected to. Hence the vagueness in the constitution

- fun fact; one article of impeachment against Andrew Johnson was the misdemeanor of speaking disrespectfully to congress.

Article 10: That Johnson had on numerous occasions, made "with a loud voice, certain intemperate, inflammatory, and scandalous harangues, and did therein utter loud threats and bitter menaces ... against Congress [and] the laws of the United States duly enacted thereby, amid the cries, jeers and laughter of the multitudes then assembled and within hearing"
 
Why are so many of you parroting this when nobody suggested any such thing?

People suggested that Harris would be better than Biden on this issue, and lots better than Trump, but nobody suggested that Biden would do a 180 as soon as the election was over. If you ever expect any US President to fully take the Palestinian side, especially while Hamas and Hezbollah still exist (and not even then most likely), then you are dreaming. The real comparison for US citizens on this issue was who would be least terrible for Palestinians, Harris or Trump? Anyone who thought Trump plainly hasn't been watching or remember his last term - remember him moving the Embassy to Jerusalem?

Several people have in the election thread.
 
That’s not a response to what he said. Nobody said what you initially posted. Lots of people did say that the dems were really in a difficult position. That they simply couldn’t restrain Israel for electoral reasons. That if it weren’t in play, Biden would have been able to do more.

This was and is obvious rubbish.
Maniak just said that is exactly what was claimed.
 
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To balance out the judicial branch. The entire thinking behind the US system is to obtain a precarious balance between the powers of the judicial, executive and legislative branches of government. The founders were afraid of one branch being infiltrated and resulting in tyranny. The pardon power is part of that.

If the judiciary was infiltrated and a group managed to gain too much power in the courts, they might try to abuse their position by forcing lawmakers into making legislative decisions through threat of criminal persecution. The pardon power takes away that risk. Another point, made salient by President Washington is that justice at its best is also blind, and through the pardon power the president can take political and national security considerations into account. Washington's first pardon signalled that the pardon power should generally be used by the exectuive branch to strive to apply "tenderness and mercy on government" whenever possible.

The pardon power is not unlimited though, during the discussion of its implementation its limits was an important topic. In their view the threat to use the power to adhere to, give comfort and aid to an enemy of the USA, or cover up the president's own illegal activities by pardoning people he advised to comit crimes for him - could in itself be grounds for impeachment. Which is where the counter balance to pardons come in. The legislative branch can impeach a president for using, or even threatening to use, pardon powers to cover up crimes he himself is connected to. Hence the vagueness in the constitution

- fun fact; one article of impeachment against Andrew Johnson was the misdemeanor of speaking disrespectfully to congress.
How can federal judicial be Infiltrated when the judges are appointed by the president?
 
Theoretically, yes.

In practice, nothing will happen. In NY, Trump was scheduled to be sentenced on Nov. 26. It was postponed indefinitely. And I bet that all charges will be dropped at some point.
The charges cannot be dropped, the case has already been tried and a verdict reached, all that remains is the sentence, which of course is probably not going to happen
 
Did they? Why would anyone say that? Given that he wasn't up for election why would that matter?
Because the excuse precedes Biden dropping out as the nominee.

When he was the nominee, anyone's hands were tied. When he wasn't, Harris could change course. Someone must have forgotten to tie her knot well.
 
Because the excuse precedes Biden dropping out as the nominee.

When he was the nominee, anyone's hands were tied. When he wasn't, Harris could change course. Someone must have forgotten to tie her knot well.
Was it? If so, so what? Biden was no longer the Dems candidate.

We will now never know, but Harris seemed very likely to be more moderate in her support of Israel. And Trump will be worse than Biden and Harris for sure. The man who moved the US embassy to Jerusalem.

Voting for Trump when you want Palestinians to be better off is like Turkeys voting for a second annual thanksgiving and Christmas.
 
To balance out the judicial branch. The entire thinking behind the US system is to obtain a precarious balance between the powers of the judicial, executive and legislative branches of government. The founders were afraid of one branch being infiltrated and resulting in tyranny. The pardon power is part of that.

If the judiciary was infiltrated and a group managed to gain too much power in the courts, they might try to abuse their position by forcing lawmakers into making legislative decisions through threat of criminal persecution. The pardon power takes away that risk. Another point, made salient by President Washington is that justice at its best is also blind, and through the pardon power the president can take political and national security considerations into account. Washington's first pardon signalled that the pardon power should generally be used by the exectuive branch to strive to apply "tenderness and mercy on government" whenever possible.

The pardon power is not unlimited though, during the discussion of its implementation its limits was an important topic. In their view the threat to use the power to adhere to, give comfort and aid to an enemy of the USA, or cover up the president's own illegal activities by pardoning people he advised to comit crimes for him - could in itself be grounds for impeachment. Which is where the counter balance to pardons come in. The legislative branch can impeach a president for using, or even threatening to use, pardon powers to cover up crimes he himself is connected to. Hence the vagueness in the constitution

- fun fact; one article of impeachment against Andrew Johnson was the misdemeanor of speaking disrespectfully to congress.

It's rock paper scissors. The best thought out plans will always have loopholes to be manipulated.
 
Blue collar people or indeed any other voter have already voted. Trump will now do whatever he want to benefit himself. He won't even have to show restrains to try to get elected again. Hunter Biden's pardon makes zero difference.
I really hope you're right, but it does give me a massive deja vu about talking points from propagandists in Poland that actually stuck for years.
 
I really hope you're right, but it does give me a massive deja vu about talking points from propagandists in Poland that actually stuck for years.
If it weren't Trump it might. But Trump will do anything and everything to benefit himself. He doesn't need an excuse.
 
He's a person who has been the victim of a relentless political hit campaign for like 5 years. It was the laptop nonsense for most of that time until their key witness admitted in court it was basically all bullshit. They tried everything until they were lucky enough to find something that stuck. They then wouldn't even let him plead guilty, so they could drag it on for the show of it, then sentenced him over and above the norm for what he was convicted of.

Corruption all the way through. The people who have been doing this are about to seize total control of the US and have been openly stating they are going to go after all their opponents. Its likely they won't leave Hunter alone, their focus on him has been a winning strategy (somehow) so they'll continue with it.

It seems like a proper use of presidential pardon powers tbh and the fact that he's his son probably shouldn't effect the decision. Remains to be seen whether it'll even matter however, when they control the courts...
That's olympics levels in terms of mental gymnastics.
 
If it weren't Trump it might. But Trump will do anything and everything to benefit himself. He doesn't need an excuse.
It's not a binary situation though. He still needs to respond to pressures from electorate and from within the party to some extent, even if it much smaller than other politicians. And this pardon feels like a talking point that will stick very well for the next few years.
 
Did they? Why would anyone say that? Given that he wasn't up for election why would that matter?
They said it when he was up for election. It became obvious once he wasn't that his policy on gaza was out of principle and not of electoral necessity. That's why it became sort of a joke. Biden believes and supports the genocide and I'm yet to see any of those making up excuses for him on the caf admit so.
 
"The other guy is worse" might work when you're talking about an election where you realistically have to pick either of them, but it doesn't apply here. What he did was hypocritical and wrong, and the fact that Trump is even more hypocritical and more wrong doesn't have any effect on that.

Your second argument is... better? I don't really agree with it, but at least it's an argument.

I would usually agree, that two wrongs don't make a right, but in this case, in terms of pardons, it is many wrongs from Trump and one from Biden.

Just look at the list of people Trump pardoned... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_granted_executive_clemency_by_Donald_Trump
most did far worse than Hunter Biden.

And we know he will pardon the J6 rioters who beat on police.

Trump has lowered the bar to such a level now in terms of decency and breaking of any norms.

Why should Biden and the Democrats always be the ones that have to "go high" when they go low? Where has this got them?
 
I would usually agree, that two wrongs don't make a right, but in this case, in terms of pardons, it is many wrongs from Trump and one from Biden.

Just look at the list of people Trump pardoned... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_granted_executive_clemency_by_Donald_Trump
most did far worse than Hunter Biden.

And we know he will pardon the J6 rioters who beat on police.

Trump has lowered the bar to such a level now in terms of decency and breaking of any norms.

Why should Biden and the Democrats always be the ones that have to "go high" when they go low? Where has this got them?
Why does it have to "get them" anything? They should do it do it because it's the right thing. And I dont accept the comparisons to Trump here, that’s just whataboutism at the end of the day. This is Biden being hypocritical and doing something bad, Trump doesn't come into it for me.
 
I would usually agree, that two wrongs don't make a right, but in this case, in terms of pardons, it is many wrongs from Trump and one from Biden.

Just look at the list of people Trump pardoned... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_granted_executive_clemency_by_Donald_Trump
most did far worse than Hunter Biden.

And we know he will pardon the J6 rioters who beat on police.

Trump has lowered the bar to such a level now in terms of decency and breaking of any norms.

Why should Biden and the Democrats always be the ones that have to "go high" when they go low? Where has this got them?

Why? It's simple, do they want to live in a democracy that enacts proper conduct? Either they do or they don't and the conduct of the political opposition makes no difference to the answer.

There's nothing worse than people treating politics as if it was tribal team sport. I'm amazed anyone is defending this bullshit from Biden.
 
I would usually agree, that two wrongs don't make a right, but in this case, in terms of pardons, it is many wrongs from Trump and one from Biden.

Just look at the list of people Trump pardoned... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_granted_executive_clemency_by_Donald_Trump
most did far worse than Hunter Biden.

And we know he will pardon the J6 rioters who beat on police.

Trump has lowered the bar to such a level now in terms of decency and breaking of any norms.

Why should Biden and the Democrats always be the ones that have to "go high" when they go low? Where has this got them?
Because it is the right thing to do. Sometimes it's that simple.
And they really, really don't always go high. They go low a little less often and obviously than the Republicans. That's it.
 
Why does it have to "get them" anything? They should do it do it because it's the right thing. And I dont accept the comparisons to Trump here, that’s just whataboutism at the end of the day. This is Biden being hypocritical and doing something bad, Trump doesn't come into it for me.

It has to get them something because this is politics. If Hunter had not been pardoned, what would have happened? Kash Patels FBI and Pam Bondi's DOJ would have used him as a rag doll for the next four years thus soiling current Democrats with Hunter Biden drama that has absoloutly nothing to do with them. They have used Hunter Biden as a boogeyman when he really is just a sad addict - that would have continued as it is fodder for the right wing networks which would be used to distract from the imminent chaos of the upcoming Trump administration. It will be they that use the whataboutism when Trump is committing crimes and breaking norms in 2025 and beyond, as they would have just dragged Hunter Biden up to face more congressional enquiries or slapped him with more FBI investigations.

Biden did the "right thing" by picking Merrick Garland as AG when the GOP Senate screwed him over by not allowing him to be confirmed to SCOTUS.
Biden did the "right thing" by then not putting any pressure on Garland to ensure a speedy prosecution of Trump's J6 crimes.
Garland did the "right thing" by taking his sweet ass time when investigating Trump.
Where did it get them? Nowhere. And Trump got of free from any of the 100+ charges he was facing.

I dont see where the Biden hypocrisy comes from? Did he criticize Trump's pardons?
I see the hypocrisy coming from the right, who are up in arms about this pardon, yet seem to be cool with a convicted criminal, who has evidaded over 100 criminal charges and been found liable by a jury of his peer to have committed sexual assault, taking the Presidency in 6 weeks time.
 
Because it is the right thing to do. Sometimes it's that simple.
And they really, really don't always go high. They go low a little less often and obviously than the Republicans. That's it.

If you were President, would you trust that your son would be treated fairly by a Trump DOJ, FBI and a GOP House and Senate, knowing that he has already been used as a political punching bag for the past four years and more?
 
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If you were President, would you trust that your son would be treated fairly by a Trump DOJ, FBI and a GOP House and Senate, knowing that he has already been used as a political punching bag for the past four years and more?
Does it even matter? We vote people into office under the presumption that they will uphold or establish a rule of law, that they are willing to do what’s right in moments of great difficulty. We vote them, because we expect them to adhere to the highest moral standards possible. We vote them, precisely because we expect them to be better than us.
So what I would do doesn’t matter at all. Because I didn’t run for office and never would. Because I never gave a promise to not do exactly what Biden now has done. It’s pure moral bankruptcy on Biden‘s part. It’s hurting the rule of law and accomplishes nothing other than the erosion of what’s left of moral standards in US politics.
It doesn’t surprise me that some are willing to defend this.
But I will be completely honest and direct about about people excusing this: doing so means they do not care about the rule of law and democracy in itself. It proves that they view politics as nothing more than a way to get what they want, by whatever means necessary.

Its inexcusable. The damage Biden has caused by this is gigantic. The Dems will have an incredibly hard time to recover from this.
 
They said it when he was up for election. It became obvious once he wasn't that his policy on gaza was out of principle and not of electoral necessity. That's why it became sort of a joke. Biden believes and supports the genocide and I'm yet to see any of those making up excuses for him on the caf admit so.
It doesn't make it any better if it were due to electoral necessity. I think once people excuse murdering tens of thousands of children as part of the political game, there's no way back.
 
I can’t wait for the people who defend this to come out with criticism of Trump‘s nepotism and corruption in the future. The mental gymnastics will be more impressive than anything Simone Biles has done at her floor routines.
 
Does it even matter? We vote people into office under the presumption that they will uphold or establish a rule of law, that they are willing to do what’s right in moments of great difficulty. We vote them, because we expect them to adhere to the highest moral standards possible. We vote them, precisely because we expect them to be better than us.
So what I would do doesn’t matter at all. Because I didn’t run for office and never would. Because I never gave a promise to not do exactly what Biden now has done.

Great way to avoid a simple question.

It’s pure moral bankruptcy on Biden‘s part. It’s hurting the rule of law and accomplishes nothing other than the erosion of what’s left of moral standards in US politics.
It doesn’t surprise me that some are willing to defend this.
But I will be completely honest and direct about about people excusing this: doing so means they do not care about the rule of law and democracy in itself. It proves that they view politics as nothing more than a way to get what they want, by whatever means necessary.

Its inexcusable. The damage Biden has caused by this is gigantic. The Dems will have an incredibly hard time to recover from this.

So explain to me how it is fine for Trump to do exactly the same and how The GOP never even had to consider recovering from Trump pardoning friends and family?
 
Maniak just said that is exactly what was claimed.

No they didn’t. This roundabout circle is pointless.

Multiple people claimed on here, well before the election, when there was no talk of Biden stepping down, that his policy on Gaza was informed mostly by electoral concerns.

Then he stepped down and the dems lost. And his policies are exactly the same. This is not even about Harris.

It’s all irrelevant anyway now but Bidens legacy is going to be straight trash and this pardon is just the cherry on top.
 
Great way to avoid a simple question.



So explain to me how it is fine for Trump to do exactly the same and how The GOP never even had to consider recovering from Trump pardoning friends and family?
I’ve answered your question. You’re just unhappy about the answer you got.

I never claimed anything Trump did was fine.
 
I would also like to point out, that the party that claims to fight for the rights of those who become affected by gun violence, now can proudly claim to have a president who pardoned someone who was found guilty of illegally possessing a firearm while abusing drugs.
 
I can’t wait for the people who defend this to come out with criticism of Trump‘s nepotism and corruption in the future. The mental gymnastics will be more impressive than anything Simone Biles has done at her floor routines.

You have zero consideration of context here.

Did Trump pardon Charles Kushner because he feared The Democrats were going after him? No.
Did he pardon Kevin McCarty's wife, Mary McCarty because Biden would go after her? No
Dd he pardon Jeanine Pirro's husband of a huge tax fraud because he thought Dems would go after him? Again, no.

Does Biden fear the same for his son? Yes, because of who Trump is, what he has said re Hunter, what has gone before re Hunter being used as a political punching bag, and who Trump is appointing in key positions such as AG and FBI chief.

Had a "regular" non-vindictive Republican president (a George Bush type) be about to be sworn in, then i have no doubt that Biden would not have pardoned Hunter. I have no doubt that he would have allowed justice to play out, but we know that Trump and his allies would not have allowed Hunter to receive fair treatment. It is in their interest to continue to have Hunter Biden in the news for the next four years.
 
I’ve answered your question. You’re just unhappy about the answer you got.

I never claimed anything Trump did was fine.

No, you dodged the question.

I asked....

If you were President, would you trust that your son would be treated fairly by a Trump DOJ, FBI and a GOP House and Senate, knowing that he has already been used as a political punching bag for the past four years and more?

And you gave me a soliloquy about you not being President and expecting better from those who are. All fine and well, but that is not an answer.

The crux of this is that Trump cant be trusted to treat Hunter Biden fairly, so Biden had to take action to pardon his son.
 
You have zero consideration of context here.

Did Trump pardon Charles Kushner because he feared The Democrats were going after him? No.
Did he pardon Kevin McCarty's wife, Mary McCarty because Biden would go after her? No
Dd he pardon Jeanine Pirro's husband of a huge tax fraud because he thought Dems would go after him? Again, no.

Does Biden fear the same for his son? Yes, because of who Trump is, what he has said re Hunter, what has gone before re Hunter being used as a political punching bag, and who Trump is appointing in key positions such as AG and FBI chief.

Had a "regular" non-vindictive Republican president (a George Bush type) be about to be sworn in, then i have no doubt that Biden would not have pardoned Hunter. I have no doubt that he would have allowed justice to play out, but we know that Trump and his allies would not have allowed Hunter to receive fair treatment. It is in their interest to continue to have Hunter Biden in the news for the next four years.

Ah right so when you think about it it's actually Trumps fault that Biden is abusing his position to pardon Hunter :lol: