The 'Awful Squad' Brigade

[Pogue Mahone]

Exactly. You chose to avoid the point I made completely, and replied about some other point I wasn't even talking about.

I was talking about The United we know in the last 10 minutes, but you reply about something else, which is not surprising considering the blind love you have for Moyes.

How often injury time winners happen?? Again. Read my post. It is an indication, but a clear one. I gave our second leg against Real Madrid last season as well, as an example, even though we lost and didn't score late in the game. But we amounted so much pressure (even with 10 men!), something we haven't seen us doing this year. Hey Pogue, quick, turn the blind eye on this because it doesn't make Moyes look good.

The feck are you on about now? Shockingly, it's possible to discuss the fortune of the team over the past few years without getting into criticism or praise of Moyes. More fool you if you think everything I post is supposed to make Moyes looks good. Especially, when I made the explicit point that this season has been the worst of all the three seasons I discussed. A pity that went over your head.

And by the way, even to your point, we did come back in that year from two goals down to beat city, from 3 goals down to draw with Chelsea, and from 1 goal down to draw with Benfica..., but the matter of fact, we haven't gone behind in games under Fergie as much as we have been under your Moyes! At this stage last season we only had 2 losses, and the season before, only 3, this season 8! So this whole "trend started when Fergie was around" is just utter non-sense really.

Dunno if you're deliberately being thick now of if this is just more simple stuff going over your head. I specifically mentioned us coming from behind to win games. Repeatedly mentioning those games in bold is just fecking retarded.

Newsflash. We're having a terrible season under Moyes. Terrible results, historic defeats and an atrocious points tally. I haven't been living under a rock, so I'm aware of all of this. It might blow your tiny mind but it's possible to think Moyes is out of his depth and still discuss certain trends that were present before he took the reins.

 

[Danny1982]

Fair do's to you for managing to write out one of the worst responses to a post I've seen for a long time.

The point made was about us going a goal down, not losing the games. Did you even read it?

Well done for being blind and not reading the discussion from the start. I was the one who started the discussion. He was the one who changed the discussion I started about late goals to one about coming back from a goal down.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Pogue, you're one of the respected poster in here

You don't need to argue a lot using quotes from Robbie Savage, only a blind fool did not realized that we have no more fighting will, let alone the never say die attitude.

We didn't say die against Madrid last year (although we already lost technically), but this year we give up even against bottom half of the teams.

Moyes comeback (according to Robbie) comes from a game where we shouldn't be behind in the first place, it's like giving him credit for an ace student for getting a pass

The Robbie Savage quote is obviously one of those weird stats that distorts what's actually happening. I don't for one moment think we've shown much fight this season. Just threw it in there because I read it a few minutes ago and it was relevant to what was being discussed.

Most likely the reason we've won more points from a losing position than most other clubs is because we've been the strongest team to repeatedly find itself in a losing position. If anything, the City stat is the more interesting of the two.

 

[Danny1982]

The feck are you on about now? Shockingly, it's possible to discuss the fortune of the team over the past few years without getting into criticism or praise of Moyes. More fool you if you think everything I post is supposed to make Moyes looks good. Especially, when I made the explicit point that this season has been the worst of all the three seasons I discussed. A pity that went over your head.

No kidding.

Dunno if you're deliberately being thick now of if this is just more simple stuff going over your head. I specifically mentioned us coming from behind to win games. Repeatedly mentioning those games in bold is just fecking retarded.

Newsflash. We're having a terrible season under Moyes. Terrible results, historic defeats and an atrocious points tally. I haven't been living under a rock, so I'm aware of all of this. It might blow your tiny mind but it's possible to think Moyes is out of his depth and still discuss certain trends that were present before he took the reins.

It's because we weren't going behind this often! Read my previous post again. And again, this wasn't even my point.

 

[Varun]

Does seeing Mata play for us tell us anything about the performances of our own players? I think so. Mata's been good but nothing like the sensational player he was at Chelsea. Yes, he's only been here 3 months and yes he's getting used to his teammates but he doesnt look confident enough out there.

 

[Lu Tze]

I'd put a lot of last night down on Rio. He clearly believed that he could continue to be a decent back up CB. But he cannot. He cannot run, he cannot head a ball, he cannot tackle, he cannot even read the game any more, he can't organise, he has no skills at all. A one legged squirrel would be more use than him. The way he's playing now he is the worst CB in a United shirt for more than a decade.

 

[Kevin]

I believe our squad is plagued with abysmal football monstrosities and that Moyes should be absolved of any blame. Judge him next season.

 

[mancan92]

People have been ridiculing our players and their genuine quality but let's be honest last season there was no way you could say that a team like Chelsea had many outright quality players. We had and currently have more world class players than they do and more potential class players. Last year rio had one of his best seasons and terry looked like the one who was totally washed up. This season it's the other way round. Garry Cahill is as average as defender come yet he is looking a world beater. Azpilicueta has just come into his own this season because he had a manager who put 100% faith in him before that there's no way you could tell me he would be part of a title challenging team in one season.Midfield wise the only real quality cm you have is Ramirez the rest are decent at best with lampard simply not having the legs anymore. In attack at the beginning of the season all you could say is that there was potential oscar, hazard both players with potential but none had properly realised it and then the fact you don't even have a single striker worth their salt. That squad is certainly no better than ours and tbh I still believe ours is better. The only difference is they have a world class manager and we don't.

 

[bobbyf]

People have been ridiculing our players and their genuine quality but let's be honest last season there was no way you could say that a team like Chelsea had many outright quality players. We had and currently have more world class players than they do and more potential class players. Last year rio had one of his best seasons and terry looked like the one who was totally washed up. This season it's the other way round. Garry Cahill is as average as defender come yet he is looking a world beater. Azpilicueta has just come into his own this season because he had a manager who put 100% faith in him before that there's no way you could tell me he would be part of a title challenging team in one season.Midfield wise the only real quality cm you have is Ramirez the rest are decent at best with lampard simply not having the legs anymore. In attack at the beginning of the season all you could say is that there was potential oscar, hazard both players with potential but none had properly realised it and then the fact you don't even have a single striker worth their salt. That squad is certainly no better than ours and tbh I still believe ours is better. The only difference is they have a world class manager and we don't.

Spot on. Some of our players need to be replaced with better but otherwise, we would never be in this low position with a top manager.

People who say we are rubbish all of a sudden don't really understand how AF made us so good for so long. He knew how to delegate roles that weren't his strong suit. He instilled confidence, belief, desire, hunger to achieve, a philosophy and teamwork. And if a player isn't outstanding, a leader, technically amazing in their position etc, he still does a job for the team. We have had so many over the years plus depth. That's what is meant by getting the best out of the squad and what Mourinho and other top managers do so well.

 

[Glanville95]

I found it bizarre when opposition fans assess our squad and say it's relative to the position we are in. It has it's flaws - and quite a lot - but it's as if they don't objectively view the squads of those around us.

There are a lot of people lambasting our defence, then Spurs have a defence containing the likes of Naughton, Rose, Walker and Dawson. Vertonghen is their sole standout defender and he doesn't even look close to the level he was at last year. Then there's Spurs attack which speaks for itself, not even comparable to United's attack.

In regards to Everton, they have a fairly strong first eleven covering all positions, but their squad depth is still very shallow. Roberto Martinez is able to excel their team with the style he has implemented and that could easily be the case if a modern thinking coach - even himself - was in charge of United. They even have four players in Lukaku, Barry, Delefou and Traore who are all loanees - three of which are very important.

We have our obvious weaknesses, but at least we have absolute star quality with quite a few players worthy of that bracket. In comparison, Eriksen - at a stretch - is the only player between Spurs and Everton who meets that category.

It really is a flawed argument and I don't think the media and opposition fans alike, view it objectively.

 

[Rednotdead]

I found it bizarre when opposition fans assess our squad and say it's relative to the position we are in. It has it's flaws - and quite a lot - but it's as if they don't objectively view the squads of those around us.

There are a lot of people lambasting our defence, then Spurs have a defence containing the likes of Naughton, Rose, Walker and Dawson. Vertonghen is their sole standout defender and he doesn't even look close to the level he was at last year. Then there's Spurs attack which speaks for itself, not even comparable to United's attack.

In regards to Everton, they have a fairly strong first eleven covering all positions, but their squad depth is still very shallow. Roberto Martinez is able to excel their team with the style he has implemented and that could easily be the case if a modern thinking coach - even himself - was in charge of United. They even have four players in Lukaku, Barry, Delefou and Traore who are all loanees - three of which are very important.

We have our obvious weaknesses, but at least we have absolute star quality with quite a few players worthy of that bracket. In comparison, Eriksen - at a stretch - is the only player between Spurs and Everton who meets that category.

It really is a flawed argument and I don't think the media and opposition fans alike, view it objectively.

But Spurs and Everton don't have a fair number of their normal starting eleven over the age of 30. Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Carrick - that's 4 of our defensive unit out of the 5. Nobody is suggesting the squad is "rubbish" but there are certainly deficiencies that were never addressed before they became a problem.

 

[Glanville95]

But Spurs and Everton don't have a fair number of their normal starting eleven over the age of 30. Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Carrick - that's 4 of our defensive unit out of the 5. Nobody is suggesting the squad is "rubbish" but there are certainly deficiencies that were never addressed before they became a problem.

Everton have three players at the club this season who have played vital roles and they aren't even their own players. Spurs have players such as Naughton, Rose, Walker and Dawson who are regular fixtures in the team - players that are comparable to some of our weakest players.

As I said, all three teams have significant deficiencies, but I find it strange when people suggest our squad is weaker than those two sides. I simply don't see it that way.

 

[bobbyf]

I found it bizarre when opposition fans assess our squad and say it's relative to the position we are in. It has it's flaws - and quite a lot - but it's as if they don't objectively view the squads of those around us.

There are a lot of people lambasting our defence, then Spurs have a defence containing the likes of Naughton, Rose, Walker and Dawson. Vertonghen is their sole standout defender and he doesn't even look close to the level he was at last year. Then there's Spurs attack which speaks for itself, not even comparable to United's attack.

In regards to Everton, they have a fairly strong first eleven covering all positions, but their squad depth is still very shallow. Roberto Martinez is able to excel their team with the style he has implemented and that could easily be the case if a modern thinking coach - even himself - was in charge of United. They even have four players in Lukaku, Barry, Delefou and Traore who are all loanees - three of which are very important.

We have our obvious weaknesses, but at least we have absolute star quality with quite a few players worthy of that bracket. In comparison, Eriksen - at a stretch - is the only player between Spurs and Everton who meets that category.

It really is a flawed argument and I don't think the media and opposition fans alike, view it objectively.

People should be looking at this manager's total lack of ability first before throwing out the whole squad and starting again. It's perfectly clear that the players don't want to play for Moyes, so how can they be compared to anyone else on this season? Everton's team believe in what Martinez is doing. Spurs have given Sherwood his chance.

And you're right about our attack. It's also better than what Chelsea and Arsenal have got. And every team has its flaws. City's defence, for example. When we get a decent manager in, then we really will know about our players, but not now under this one.

 

[Amir]

I found it bizarre when opposition fans assess our squad and say it's relative to the position we are in. It has it's flaws - and quite a lot - but it's as if they don't objectively view the squads of those around us.

Exactly, each and every one of our rivals has clear flaws in their teams, but they have managers to at least partly overcome them, hide them behind their strongest points.

 

[Amir]

But Spurs and Everton don't have a fair number of their normal starting eleven over the age of 30. Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Carrick - that's 4 of our defensive unit out of the 5. Nobody is suggesting the squad is "rubbish" but there are certainly deficiencies that were never addressed before they became a problem.

And those four were good enough for the title last season. Did they really all just drop off so spectacularly between May and August?

 

[Goooose]

This squad is so good they don't even want to try for any other manager than SAF.

 

[bobbyf]

This squad is so good they don't even want to try for any other manager than SAF.

No, they tried to work under Moyes and he has no idea how to get the best out of them. Is that their fault he is totally incapable? Reserve your judgement till somebody much better comes in and then we will see how good they really are.

 

[Smores]

I honestly don't get why so many feel the players can't be judged. The caf has spent the last couple of seasons pointing out flaws that have only got worse but now we've got a struggling manager we aren't allowed to mention them?

This whole "Moyes Brigade" and "Moyes apologists lark is childish nonsense.

 

[Danny1982]

I honestly don't get why so many feel the players can't be judged. The caf has spent the last couple of seasons pointing out flaws that have only got worse but now we've got a struggling manager we aren't allowed to mention them?

This whole "Moyes Brigade" and "Moyes apologists lark is childish nonsense.

Because it's stupid to blame the whole team (that won multiple trophies) instead of the only man you changed.

The players have shown us in the past what they can do, Moyes hasn't.

You can criticize a few players if you want, like some of us were doing in the last few years, but that's not the reason why we're in 7th place right now, like they weren't in the last few years.

 

[bobbyf]

I honestly don't get why so many feel the players can't be judged. The caf has spent the last couple of seasons pointing out flaws that have only got worse but now we've got a struggling manager we aren't allowed to mention them?

This whole "Moyes Brigade" and "Moyes apologists lark is childish nonsense.

If we have almost the same players as last season, then we can already judge them on that. We have our opinions about who needed to be sold or to retire. But that same squad still competed over the past few seasons and haven't suddenly got worse in 3 months last summer. They cannot all be crap now.

And on this season, how can we truly judge them when they have someone so bad in charge? You're right, we have flaws and I would definitely say get rid of a few, but look at the rest of them more when (or dare I say if) they are under a much better manager.

 

[Lu Tze]

If we have almost the same players as last season, then we can already judge them on that. We have our opinions about who needed to be sold or to retire. But that same squad still competed over the past few seasons and haven't suddenly got worse in 3 months last summer. They cannot all be crap now.

And on this season, how can we truly judge them when they have someone so bad in charge? You're right, we have flaws and I would definitely say get rid of a few, but look at the rest of them more when (or dare I say if) they are under a much better manager.

I'd say Rio, Vidic and Evra - our 3 key defenders, have all fallen off a massive cliff in their ability.

 

[bobbyf]

I'd say Rio, Vidic and Evra - our 3 key defenders, have all fallen off a massive cliff in their ability.

But Moyes doesn't agree cos he didn't sign anyone to replace them. He failed to get 2 LBs (Baines & Contrao) and worse still, he did it so publically that Evra doesn't want to play for him now. Or Vidic, which is why he's leaving. Can we really judge their form after that? Rio still had a good season last year but Moyes should have signed his replacement last summer. Another balls up.

 

[Lu Tze]

But Moyes doesn't agree cos he didn't sign anyone to replace them. He failed to get 2 LBs (Baines & Contrao) and worse still, he did it so publically that Evra doesn't want to play for him now. Or Vidic, which is why he's leaving. Rio still had a good season last year but Moyes should have signed his replacement last summer. Another balls up.

Vidic and Evra are 32. Terry is 33 and having one of the best seasons of his career. That is a perfectly reasonable age for experienced squad members to be. They should not be declining to such a great extent. Ferdinand was kept on a back up, but injuries/suspensions have forced him to get games.

 

[bobbyf]

Vidic and Evra are 32. Terry is 33 and having one of the best seasons of his career. That is a perfectly reasonable age for experienced squad members to be. They should not be declining to such a great extent. Ferdinand was kept on a back up, but injuries/suspensions have forced him to get games.

Exactly. Cos Mourinho knows how to get the best out of Terry and the other older players in his squad. Our manager does not. And you have to ask why theirs are not declining likem ours are. Or why we've had so many injuries this season with this different training regime.

 

[Lu Tze]

Exactly. Cos Mourinho knows how to get the best out of Terry and the other older players in his squad. Our manager does not. And you have to ask why theirs are not declining likem ours are. Or why we've had so many injuries this season with this different training regime.

We've had tonnes of injuries with every training regime. We've had a CB injury crisis practically every year for the last 5. In any case, it was entirely infeasible for Moyes to get rid of Vidic, Evra and Ferdinand last window. That's the captain and VC you're talking about, and our most experienced defender. He would have been killed, and it would have ripped whatever heart was left out of the squad before the season even started.

 

[Rowem]

What I find amusing is that there were a lot of people who were quite vocal in the criticism of our squad the past two seasons yet many now refuse to lay any blame at all at the players.

What is it with human nature that people have to pick one side or another and then take their opinion to the extreme?

The squad has some serious fecking problems. Can I say that without being labelled part of the 'Awful Squad Brigade'? Do I have to put a disclaimer in every post criticizing the squad saying that I also think Moyes is doing an atrocious job so far? Is it really necessary?

So many pathetic little schoolgirls on here who want to make groups and make sensationalists claims that the other group has cooties. Tossers, the lot of you.

 

[bobbyf]

We've had tonnes of injuries with every training regime. We've had a CB injury crisis practically every year for the last 5. In any case, it was entirely infeasible for Moyes to get rid of Vidic, Evra and Ferdinand last window. That's the captain and VC you're talking about, and our most experienced defender. He would have been killed, and it would have ripped whatever heart was left out of the squad before the season even started.

I wouldn't have got rid of all of them either, just Rio last summer, cos of his age. That's why we needed a new CB who would also take time to gradually settle in.

Don't know about a CB crisis for the last 5 seasons. There was one where we had 6-7 out and Fletcher and Carrick and to play there for a one or two games. And something similar in another season where Evra played CB. The rest we were short of defenders for some periods. But this happens to lots of clubs.

 

[Kag]

I'm glad that this faction of idiots has slowly wormed away as the real truth has come to the fore.

The current topic of discussion is odd, too. Rio has barely played, rightfully so. Our problems, although we do concede too many, aren't down to the defence. Our cluelessness, lack of imagination and attacking cohesion is non-existent, which is a direct product of the coaching staff and their work, or lack of it. We struggle to create chances in spite of boasting incredibly creative footballers and we don't score enough goals.

Yes, Vidic has been poorer, but Evra is exactly the same as he's been for years. Carrick came off the back of his best ever season at the club, easily the most consistent central midfielder in the league. The idea that Moyes was provided a hindrance when it comes to these players in nonsense, and indicative of the need for some people to seal his stupidity. Evra and Carrick were the only "key" players there, and they aren't really the root of our problems.

 

[bobbyf]

I'm glad that this faction of idiots has slowly wormed away as the real truth has come to the fore.

The current topic of discussion is odd, too. Rio has barely played, rightfully so. Our problems, although we do concede too many, aren't down to the defence. Our cluelessness, lack of imagination and attacking cohesion is non-existent, which is a direct product of the coaching staff and their work, or lack of it. We struggle to create chances in spite of boasting incredibly creative footballers and we don't score enough goals.

Yes, Vidic has been poorer, but Evra is exactly the same as he's been for years. Carrick came off the back of his best ever season at the club, easily the most consistent central midfielder in the league. The idea that Moyes was provided a hindrance when it comes to these players in nonsense, and indicative of the need for some people to seal his stupidity. Evra and Carrick were the only "key" players there, and they aren't really the root of our problems.

I struggle to remember any good performances this season, never mind a consistent run of games when we really needed it. Moyes cannot get anything out of our players so the idea of keeping him on is ridiculous. He's even managed to coach out our free flowing attacking style by his negative tactics.

What baffles me is when even our own fans talk about how 'crap' some of our players have been for years. Yes, I agree we needed changes, that's part and parcel of any club. However, this idea of an instant 'clear out' is just a complete overreaction and would be more damaging to the team.

This group of players has somehow proved people wrong by challenging big spenders like City, Chelsea and everyone else every season, and even in Europe. How so? On paper we haven't got a better first XI than a few clubs, but then they can't play every game, it's about using the squad. And in truth, as a unit our players aren't as bad as people like to make out.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'm glad that this faction of idiots has slowly wormed away as the real truth has come to the fore.

The current topic of discussion is odd, too. Rio has barely played, rightfully so. Our problems, although we do concede too many, aren't down to the defence. Our cluelessness, lack of imagination and attacking cohesion is non-existent, which is a direct product of the coaching staff and their work, or lack of it. We struggle to create chances in spite of boasting incredibly creative footballers and we don't score enough goals.

Yes, Vidic has been poorer, but Evra is exactly the same as he's been for years. Carrick came off the back of his best ever season at the club, easily the most consistent central midfielder in the league. The idea that Moyes was provided a hindrance when it comes to these players in nonsense, and indicative of the need for some people to seal his stupidity. Evra and Carrick were the only "key" players there, and they aren't really the root of our problems.

You have to be bloody kidding. Or blind. One of the two anyway. We've defended like spanners all season long.

Why do so many people who don't rate Moyes refuse to acknowledge the flaws in the squad he inherited? It's almost as though there's only two possibilities. Either Moyes is shit. Or the squad is shit. Nothing in between. That's an absurdly black and white view to hold.

In yet more "stating the bleeding obvious" news, it's possible for a team to simultaneously struggle to create chances whilst also defending poorly.

 

[mancan92]

You have to be bloody kidding. Or blind. One of the two anyway. We've defended like spanners all season long.

Why do so many people who don't rate Moyes refuse to acknowledge the flaws in the squad he inherited? It's almost as though there's only two possibilities. Either Moyes is shit. Or the squad is shit. Nothing in between. That's an absurdly black and white view to hold.

In yet more "stating the bleeding obvious" news, it's possible for a team to simultaneously struggle to create chances whilst also defending poorly.

The problem is that every single team in the prem have glaring issues within their squad. Only city have positions in most positions but even at cb they struggle. Chelsea are riddled with issues everywhere including the fact that they don't even have a striker and we have 2 world class ones.

 

[KeninDC]

In statistics you sometimes face a problem of endogeneity-where the explanatory variables are affected by the same thing as the outcomes you're trying to measure. This is my biggest issue in evaluating our squad-do we have bad players, and that's why Moyes isn't doing well, or do we have bad players because of Moyes's poor man management and tactics? I can't disentangle this in my head, but I lean towards the idea that we have bad players because of Moyes's poor coaching.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The problem is that every single team in the prem have glaring issues within their squad. Only city have positions in most positions but even at cb they struggle. Chelsea are riddled with issues everywhere including the fact that they don't even have a striker and we have 2 world class ones.

Riddled with issues?

So they're being forced to cope with two strikers who were until recently widely acknowledged as amongst the very best in the world. As well as a 28 year old who was one of the best strikers in the league in 2011/12. Not to mention they had the luxury of sending one of the best teenage strikers in Europe out on loan, where he's scored 12 PL goals in 23 games. Boo hoo. Poor Chelsea.

What other issues are they riddled with?

 

[bobbyf]

You have to be bloody kidding. Or blind. One of the two anyway. We've defended like spanners all season long.

Why do so many people who don't rate Moyes refuse to acknowledge the flaws in the squad he inherited? It's almost as though there's only two possibilities. Either Moyes is shit. Or the squad is shit. Nothing in between. That's an absurdly black and white view to hold.

In yet more "stating the bleeding obvious" news, it's possible for a team to simultaneously struggle to create chances whilst also defending poorly.

You're right. We needed new faces in and some needed to be sold or retired last summer, but not a total clear out.

And a manager who can get the best out of the current squad. Also, who could identify where we needed strengthening and actually sign the right players for this. Our manager is the problem and until we get a much better one, we won't know for sure about the whole squad.

And all clubs have flaws, it's how they dealt with.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You're right. We needed new faces in and some needed to be sold or retired last summer, but not a total clear out.

And a manager who can get the best out of the current squad. Also, who could identify where we needed strengthening and actually sign the right players for this. Our manager is the problem and until we get a much better one, we won't know for sure about the whole squad.

And all clubs have flaws, it's how they dealt with.

You're preaching to the converted here. I think a better manager could have done a better job than Moyes has.

 

[mancan92]

Riddled with issues?

So they're being forced to cope with two strikers who were until recently widely acknowledged as amongst the very best in the world. As well as a 28 year old who was one of the best strikers in the league in 2011/12. Not to mention they had the luxury of sending one of the best teenage strikers in Europe out on loan, where he's scored 12 PL goals in 23 games. Boo hoo. Poor Chelsea.

What other issues are they riddled with?

Before mourinho sorted them out terry was completely washed up most people thought he was done. Cahill is simply an average player. Azp just replaced a completely out of sorts Ashley Cole in a position no one would of ever thought he'd excel in. I haven't even talked about luis who is one of the most up and down players in the league. Then midfield wise at the beginning of the season they only had ramirez who was class the rest are OK to decent. As I said they don't have a striker. Oscar and hazard were players with great talent but none of it realised yet and willian is a good player but not exactly top class. I'm talking about beginning of the season because at the end of the day that's what mourinho had to work with.

 

[Kag]

You have to be bloody kidding. Or blind. One of the two anyway. We've defended like spanners all season long.

Why do so many people who don't rate Moyes refuse to acknowledge the flaws in the squad he inherited? It's almost as though there's only two possibilities. Either Moyes is shit. Or the squad is shit. Nothing in between. That's an absurdly black and white view to hold.

In yet more "stating the bleeding obvious" news, it's possible for a team to simultaneously struggle to create chances whilst also defending poorly.

My point is a fair one. Our defence has been no worse than Arsenal's, or Liverpool's, or Spurs', or Everton's. A few goals in it here and there.

No, our biggest problem is the lack of goals. Our goals conceded column isn't all that worse than last season's, so it's clear from that it isn't that big of an issue, particularly in comparison with our profligacy in front of goal, whereby the difference from last season is actually massive.

The defence itself will improve the sooner we settle on a partnership that doesn't include Rio or Vidic and allow it the time to grow. There isn't fundamental problems with our defence like there has been with the midfield, for example. The talent is there, we just need to protect it with a midfield worthy of the club and watch them improve. I'm not saying it doesn't have its problems, but the notion that is in fact "woeful," or the players are woeful, is total bullshit.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Before mourinho sorted them out terry was completely washed up most people thought he was done. Cahill is simply an average player. Azp just replaced a completely out of sorts Ashley Cole in a position no one would of ever thought he'd excel in. I haven't even talked about luis who is one of the most up and down players in the league. Then midfield wise at the beginning of the season they only had ramirez who was class the rest are OK to decent. As I said they don't have a striker. Oscar and hazard were players with great talent but none of it realised yet and willian is a good player but not exactly top class. I'm talking about beginning of the season because at the end of the day that's what mourinho had to work with.

I reckon Moyes would give his left bollock to have "problems" like deciding between Ashley Cole or Azp at left-back and picking two central midfielders from Lampard, Ramires, Mikel and Luiz.

I'm not even getting into the idea that having Oscar, Hazard and Willian on his books somehow made life difficult for Mourinho.

 

[mancan92]

I reckon Moyes would give his left bollock to have "problems" like deciding between Ashley Cole or Azp at left-back and picking two central midfielders from Lampard, Ramires, Mikel and Luiz.

Ashley Cole was worse than evra last couple seasons and azp had never played the position before, how us that worse than what Moyes had to deal with? You named for players there and only one of them could be said to be class. Then the cb and strikers and immediately realise the Chelsea team is easily as messed up as ours if not worse at least we're have 2 world class strikers.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

My point is a fair one. Our defence has been no worse than Arsenal's, or Liverpool's, or Spurs', or Everton's. A few goals in it here and there.

No, our biggest problem is the lack of goals. Our goals conceded column isn't all that worse than last season's, so it's clear from that it isn't that big of an issue, particularly in comparison with our profligacy in front of goal, whereby the difference from last season is actually massive.

The defence itself will improve the sooner we settle on a partnership that doesn't include Rio or Vidic and allow it the time to grow. There isn't fundamental problems with our defence like there has been with the midfield, for example. The talent is there, we just need to protect it with a midfield worthy of the club and watch them improve. I'm not saying it doesn't have its problems, but the notion that is in fact "woeful," or the players are woeful, is total bullshit.

I hope you're right. Unless we change our style to the unrecognizable I personally think we'll depend on having a top notch defence going forward - like we had when we last fielded a team that could be justifiably called the best in Europe (which is what we always aim to be, surely).

Do we have what we need in the trio of Evans, Smalling and Jones? I don't know. I hope so, but I really don't know.