The 'Awful Squad' Brigade

[Chabon]

9 goals in 23 starts, some of which came from the wing, is a decent return for a 21 year old. More importantly he brought so much more to our game and was a major part of our highest scoring season in a decade.

But yes, his finishing needed to improve, which is why matching that seasons figure in half the minutes is so encouraging. Give him a full season up front and he'll score 20+ goals for certain.

 

[bucky]

Yes the same Welbeck who scored 2 goals in 40 appearances last season.

So? This season he has 10 goals and 5 assists in all competitions, while not being first choice, which is completely alright for a top 4 side and a 23 year old.

 

[Chabon]

Until the derby, when Moyes in his genius decided to waste him out wide again, he had the fourth best goals per minute in the league. He's not had a start up front since the middle of January.

Its exactly the same as with Smalling. They excel in their limited opportunities in their actual positions, and then get shunted out wide to make space for underperforming old men or to cover for daft holes in the squad. And then when theyre average in those positions their stock falls amongst the unobservant.

 

[Danny1982]

No because neither of our 3 strikers should be at a top four side either, although Eto'o has actually got 11 goals and 6 assists, which isnt that bad.

I think you misunderstood the point. You are in the top 4 now, aren't you? The question is if Welbeck can get into the squad of any of the top 4 right now. In my opinion he could easily get into yours and Arsenal's.

We're not comparing our squad to an imaginary perfect squad, as we're not competing against a perfect squad, we're competing against you guys, and so the comparison should be with the current top 4 squads.

P.S. I may be misunderstanding the point myself, but I think then my point is more relevant.

 

[Blasphemy]

Welbeck is better than anyone of your current strikers.

Eto'o is still better than Welbeck as a striker imo.

 

[bobbyf]

Eto'o is still better than Welbeck as a striker imo.

Eto'o has played in his favoured position wherever he's gone. Has Welbeck ever had a proper run in our team as a striker? We would have to judge him on that, not on the left where he spent so much time last season.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Until the derby, when Moyes in his genius decided to waste him out wide again, he had the fourth best goals per minute in the league. He's not had a start up front since the middle of January.

Its exactly the same as with Smalling. They excel in their limited opportunities in their actual positions, and then get shunted out wide to make space for underperforming old men or to cover for daft holes in the squad. And then when theyre average in those positions their stock falls amongst the unobservant.

Welbeck has most recently been played out wide to allow Mata have a crack at playing as a number 10, with Rooney leading the line.

In which of the scenarios in bold does that belong?

 

[roseguy64]

while Evans can be inconsistent and I couldn't imagine him being a starter for the other top 4 teams.

Have a second look at the CBs of the top 4 teams

 

[limerickcitykid]

Welbeck has had one regular run at striker and he scored something like 7 in 7 over the Christmas period.

 

[Chabon]

Welbeck has most recently been played out wide to allow Mata have a crack at playing as a number 10, with Rooney leading the line.

In which of the scenarios in bold does that belong?

It's only the once that's happened, on Tuesday - his only other start since January coming out wide in a CL match - and eventually Moyes moved Welbeck up front, where he immediately drew the only two saves Hart had to make all night.

 

[Infra-red]

EXCLUSIVE: Blame Fergie! United chiefs believe Sir Alex left cupboard bare for beleaguered Moyes

Manchester United's patience with manager David Moyes is being driven by an increasing belief that he was handed a questionable behind-the-scenes legacy by his predecessor Sir Alex Ferguson.

One club source said post-Ferguson, ‘it was like looking behind the curtain of the Wizard of Oz and seeing there was nothing there to work with’.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-Ferguson-left-cupboard-bare-David-Moyes.html

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's only the once that's happened, on Tuesday - his only other start since January coming out wide in a CL match - and eventually Moyes moved Welbeck up front, where he immediately drew the only two saves Hart had to make all night.

He's either played wide to accomodate RvP or Mata. Neither scenario fits with what you outlined above.

I think he is clearly top four quality but not yet good enough to hold down a place in his preferred position, at United or any other top 4 team (apart from, maybe, Arsenal). Which is why his versatility is such a bonus.

Same is true of Smalling fwiw. Minus the versatility.

 

[Chabon]

Like I said, he's only started two games since January. He's deserved way more considering Van Persies nonsense.

 

[bobbyf]

EXCLUSIVE: Blame Fergie! United chiefs believe Sir Alex left cupboard bare for beleaguered Moyes

Manchester United's patience with manager David Moyes is being driven by an increasing belief that he was handed a questionable behind-the-scenes legacy by his predecessor Sir Alex Ferguson.

One club source said post-Ferguson, ‘it was like looking behind the curtain of the Wizard of Oz and seeing there was nothing there to work with’.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-Ferguson-left-cupboard-bare-David-Moyes.html

Actually it sounds like just another story from the 'deflect blame away from Moyes' brigade. Now they're trying to put it on SAF.

True or not, it doesn't explain why Moyes cannot pick a decent XI from the players who are currently at the club, or why he is tactically clueless with them or why they don't want to play for him. It also says he wants to get rid of half the squad, not the team, in summer and do what? Bring in 8 players like Fellaini? That will be very disruptive and set us back years.

And what are these problems behind the scenes? It's all very vague. Nothing left to work with? No academy or multi-million pound training facility? Doesn't Moyes know how to delegate some of these roles or have his own scouts from before? If he's been faffing about elsewhere instead of managing the first team, then he shouldn't have the job.

 

[askabob]

It's a stupid argument anyway. His Everton side, with one of their best players now playing for us, is doing better than us this season. We obviously have a much much stronger squad than them, so what is the excuse?

 

[manutddjw]

I've made lengthy posts a few times standing up for the squad that Fergie left us with, so I'm not going to bother doing it again. But really, this is all so simple.

Did Sir Alex leave us with a squad full of world class players? No he didn't. But guess what? He won with that squad and whoever took over from him should've had the ability to do be somewhat near the level Fergie had us at or they shouldn't of been given the job in the first place. This isn't a knock on Moyes, it's the same everywhere else. Moyes did great things with his Everton squad and if Martinez failed to do the same when he took over, Martinez would've faced the same scrutiny Moyes is getting currently.

 

[bobbyf]

I've made lengthy posts a few times standing up for the squad that Fergie left us with, so I'm not going to bother doing it again. But really, this is all so simple.

Did Sir Alex leave us with a squad full of world class players? No he didn't. But guess what? He won with that squad and whoever took over from him should've had the ability to do be somewhat near the level Fergie had us at or they shouldn't of been given the job in the first place. This isn't a knock on Moyes, it's the same everywhere else. Moyes did great things with his Everton squad and if Martinez failed to do the same when he took over, Martinez would've faced the same scrutiny Moyes is getting currently.

It's because some people just don't understand what made us so successful. SAF could give the impression that he'd won the game before a ball was kicked, but the players still had to go out on the pitch and do it. They still had the ability to outscore everyone and get more points and wins than rivals.

Also, other clubs's fans, journos, pundits were convinced some of our players were still very inferior to others. They have always harped on about how much better some players/squads were than ours, even when we were lifting trophy after trophy and they weren't. But now, cos this manager cannot get a tune out of our squad, they suddenly feel justified.

And what manager wouldn't want a ready made top 4 (at least) squad to take over? Or would they prefer one fighting for relegation?

 

[bosnian_red]

I've made lengthy posts a few times standing up for the squad that Fergie left us with, so I'm not going to bother doing it again. But really, this is all so simple.

Did Sir Alex leave us with a squad full of world class players? No he didn't. But guess what? He won with that squad and whoever took over from him should've had the ability to do be somewhat near the level Fergie had us at or they shouldn't of been given the job in the first place. This isn't a knock on Moyes, it's the same everywhere else. Moyes did great things with his Everton squad and if Martinez failed to do the same when he took over, Martinez would've faced the same scrutiny Moyes is getting currently.

Completely agree. It's not a criticism on Moyes to say that he shouldn't have been given the job if he can't get close to the level Fergie did. We're a top club and all top clubs need top managers in charge. Would we settle for a shit keeper if the rest of the squad was great? No, so we shouldn't settle on an average mid table manager when we are one of the biggest clubs in the world and there's an elite group of managers and type of managers who are actually suited to us and good enough to take on a team like United, Bayern, Madrid or Barca. Those 4 clubs are clearly on a different level to any other club around the world when it comes to expectation, fan base, resources and history (all of it combined, some clubs might have 1 of the aspects, but not all).

 

[mattsville]

He left a squad with a solid young core for any new coach to build around, De Gea, Rafael, Smalling, Jones, Fabio, Cleverly, Zaha, Januzaj, Hernandez, Welbeck. Players in their prime years like Rooney, Van Persie, Valencia. Tweaks needed looking at, Rio, Evra and Vidic but you could at least get a good season out of them to keep you going this while you made plans to replace them. The most important thing is, he left everyone there with a winning mentality, good solid professionals as we all know well he vetted his players meticulously before signing them. This squad isn't good enough talk is a joke, not good enough to be top dogs in Europe granted and that is where we were all looking for a new manager to perhaps advance us, but comfortably good enough, even allowing for a new manager, to be relevant and challenging domestically. Instead we are left with an aimless, dejected bunch of players. First impressions last. This core bunch of players will NEVER produce for him now, whatever has gone on behind the scenes that we are not privy to has stopped prime players in their tracks and stunted the development of our top young players. Get rid of Moyes pronto the while situation can still be rectified.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He left a squad with a solid young core for any new coach to build around, De Gea, Rafael, Smalling, Jones, Fabio, Cleverly, Zaha, Januzaj, Hernandez, Welbeck. Players in their prime years like Rooney, Van Persie, Valencia. Tweaks needed looking at, Rio, Evra and Vidic but you could at least get a good season out of them to keep you going this while you made plans to replace them. The most important thing is, he left everyone there with a winning mentality, good solid professionals as we all know well he vetted his players meticulously before signing them. This squad isn't good enough talk is a joke, not good enough to be top dogs in Europe granted and that is where we were all looking for a new manager to perhaps advance us, but comfortably good enough, even allowing for a new manager, to be relevant and challenging domestically. Instead we are left with an aimless, dejected bunch of players. First impressions last. This core bunch of players will NEVER produce for him now, whatever has gone on behind the scenes that we are not privy to has stopped prime players in their tracks and stunted the development of our top young players. Get rid of Moyes pronto the while situation can still be rectified.

Ven Persie is 30 and unable to stay fit more than a few weeks at a time, Fergie did his level best to drive Rooney out of the club and the less said about the form and confidence of Valencia coming into this season the better. If these are the only examples you can think of for players "in their prime" that Moyes inherited, then it seriously undermines your argument.

Which leaves a bunch of young players who might be good enough to be the core of a team good enough to challenge for the league (although major question marks over almost every one of them) and a bunch of 30+ year olds, from whom only Michael Carrick looked anywhere near close to his best last season.

As always, I feel obliged to add the proviso that yes, Moyes should have got more out of the squad. It's certainly capable of being higher up the league than seventh and the style and approach has been lamentable. That said, some of you need to seriously adjust your expectations and accept that we have a major rebuilding job on our hands. The type of radical overhaul that could see us going through a lean two or three seasons. If people can't accept that, I fear that no manager will ever be good enough for you lot.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

As always, I feel obliged to add the proviso that yes, Moyes should have got more out of the squad. It's certainly capable of being higher up the league than seventh and the style and approach has been lamentable. That said, some of you need to seriously adjust your expectations and accept that we have a major rebuilding job on our hands. The type of radical overhaul that could see us going through a lean two or three seasons. If people can't accept that, I fear that no manager will ever be good enough for you lot.

Well said, man.

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

@Pogue

Absolute rubbish.

If he bought the right players i.e. two midfielders, a new centre back and a new left back and perhaps a new winger, that is more than enough. Five in and Seven out (Fabio and Anderson hardly played anyway). There are always going to be passengers in any squad. A complete overhaul is nonsense. It is just an excuse for a manager who cannot motivate players and has a good number of players who simply don't think that he is up to the job.

Players like Nani and Hernandez are plenty good enough to play for this team. In Nani's case he needs a run of fitness and a manager to give him confidence. We all know that Nani is a tremendous player on form and he is entering his peak years. In Hernandez's case he needs a manager who understands his value (which is great from the bench) and how to use him. In this case Moyes has failed miserably. His cautious tactics sees him give Hernandez five minutes here and there, no wonder the players head has dropped. Hernandez is actually a diamond of a player. He may not be a total footballer or a nailed on starter but he rescued us so many times and is invaluable as a third or forth choice striker. It is a damning indictment on David Moyes that he is unable to use this player.

Unfortunately Moyes has already made two poor signings. He complains about being stitched up with the squad but he has signed a sub standard midfielder for massive money, a player that he knows intimately BTW, he should know that he is not good enough for the sharp end of elite football. He has also signed a fantastic player in Mata who unfortunately does nothing to address the issues that he has been moaning about. He basically signed Mata with no plan, he just signed him because of who he was. We need a manager with a plan!

He has already used up two of the five signings that would be required to refresh this squad. It hasn't really worked has it?

 

[BennyBlanco]

Rebuilding is a big word, personally I associate the term "rebuild" in football with a team like Tottenham, who're still in need of a good base "core" to build from on for the future, I wouldn't associate the term with say.. Arsenal who already have a solid nucleus of a squad in place, just lacking 1-3 top players plugged into it.
I would have associated our situation building up in pre-season to Arsenals, I.E. to plug in a few solid performers into to whats already there, rather than I would have say... a Spurs.

We do have a good nucleus of a team already there, some say, for example we have too many young players, well that may be true but all of those young players have title winning experience, in particular for me: DDG, involved heavily for 2 years now, and Rafael considered our 1st choice RB for several years despite still not being considered in his prime years are exceptions to the rule.

I believe as well, our squad issues are becoming magnified exponentially under Moyes, making it appear far more severe than would be the case if managed by a decent coach, ala Mourinho, who deosnt have a top tier striker yet finds ways around it, similarly Ashley Cole could have been a loss for them but he's found a reasonable solution for now while attempting to bring in Shaw in the summer, and again Terry, despite his age and lack of speed, he's put him in a position for his strengths to show and his weaknesses be masked.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

@Pogue

Absolute rubbish.

If he bought the right players i.e. two midfielders, a new centre back and a new left back and perhaps a new winger, that is more than enough. Five in and Seven out (Fabio and Anderson hardly played anyway). There are always going to be passengers in any squad. A complete overhaul is nonsense. It is just an excuse for a manager who cannot motivate players and has a good number of players who simply don't think that he is up to the job.
Players like Nani and Hernandez are plenty good enough to play for this team. In Nani's case he needs a run of fitness and a manager to give him confidence. We all know that Nani is a tremendous player on form and he is entering his peak years. In Hernandez's case he needs a manager who understands his value (which is great from the bench) and how to use him. In this case Moyes has failed miserably. His cautious tactics sees him give Hernandez five minutes here and there, no wonder the players head has dropped. Hernandez is actually a diamond of a player. He may not be a total footballer or a nailed on starter but he rescued us so many times and is invaluable as a third or forth choice striker. It is a damning indictment on David Moyes that he is unable to use this player.

Unfortunately Moyes has already made two poor signings. He complains about being stitched up with the squad but he has signed a sub standard midfielder for massive money, a player that he knows intimately BTW, he should know that he is not good enough for the sharp end of elite football. He has also signed a fantastic player in Mata who unfortunately does nothing to address the issues that he has been moaning about. He basically signed Mata with no plan, he just signed him because of who he was. We need a manager with a plan!

He has already used up two of the five signings that would be required to refresh this squad. It hasn't really worked has it?

Absolute rubbish

(we're going with over the top, one-dimensional criticism of each other's opinions, right?)

Both Nani and Hernandez were less impressive and influential last season than they had been in previous seasons. Their increased marginalisation in 2013/14 is part of an ongoing trend, not some kind of unheralded deterioration due to the malign influence of an incompetent new manager.

That's what's so fundamental to the main point I'm making. I would struggle to think of a single player who is under-performing badly this season where you couldn't see clear warning signs when Fergie was still the manager.

Actually, that's an exaggeration. Carrick and Van Persie looked all set to go on to great things this season. I wouldn't have predicted they would both struggle so much, although obviously injuries have been a big issue for both of them. Once you're past the big three oh I guess injuries are that bit harder to shake off. Oh and De Gea. He looked all set for big things and has delivered. Maybe Rafael too? Although he hasn't kicked on as hoped. Again, injuries haven't helped. Danny Welbeck? I suppose so. I was a believer anyway. Many weren't.

Not going to include any of our younger central defenders as there was such big question marks about their ability to stay fit. A pattern that's continued this season. So yeah, that's four - or at most 5 - players who didn't have some kind of cloud hanging over them while they were still being managed by Fergie. Which is a fairly damning indictment of the squad that Moyes inherited.

 

[pocco]

It's a stupid argument anyway. His Everton side, with one of their best players now playing for us, is doing better than us this season. We obviously have a much much stronger squad than them, so what is the excuse?

Alternatively, his inferior Everton squad played better football under him than we are, so what is the excuse for our players? Swings and roundabouts.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Alternatively, his inferior Everton squad played better football under him than we are, so what is the excuse for our players? Swings and roundabouts.

You could also argue that Everton - under Moyes - played better football at times last season than our current squad did under Fergie!

 

[Bross]

Alternatively, his inferior Everton squad played better football under him than we are, so what is the excuse for our players? Swings and roundabouts.

How is that swings and roundabouts?

The everton players now have a new manager and are playing better. Moyes -> another manager = better results and performances
The united players have a new manager and are playing worse. another manager -> Moyes = worse results and performances

There is a direct negative correlation between results and Moyes' presence at a club.

 

[Bury Red]

Well said Pogue. Carrick and van Persie have been shadows of the players they were last season but other than Rafael, Rooney and De Gea all the other players Moyes inherited were either in decline last season or had yet to fully prove themselves and Rooney had his own difficulties last season having been put out by RVP's presence which Moyes did a good job in defusing when it looked like he was off.

Carrick and RVP have suffered from injuries this season and maybe Moyes' tactics have affected them slightly but to me it looks like they've also lost the appetite for a fight and that's what the team as a whole have missed this season whenever we've gone behind. Moyes has erred in some areas, prior to the Olympiakos match I'd been praying he'd bring Giggs back in for weeks as despite his age he's still a capable player and has the appetite and drive that might just be enough to motivate those around him, Moyes admitted himself that he'd prematurely retired Giggs and that his inclusion was the difference in the second leg only to then leave him out against City. We've sorely lacked someone to drive the team on when things are tough ever since Keane left though and while Vidic, Neville, Scholes and Giggs drove the post Keane team on well enough their departures or dimming have left us sorely lacking a leader on the field. Rooney cares but when he's pissed off he's more likely to smack someone than drag the team up to his standard of application, Fletcher is a battler but not exactly a leader of men and Fellaini of all people looks like he gives a damn despite the abuse he's received but the rest of the players look lost when we go a goal down and that's every bit as much of a team problem as it is a Moyes problem and it was something that we suffered from last season too despite the paper over the cracks that RVP's arrival with something to prove clearly was.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, last season I fell asleep during many matches as we were dire and you knew once we'd gone 1-0 up that the match was over. This season I couldn't possibly fall asleep during a match as we're capable of throwing any lead away on our current form, I'll not say I'm enjoying this season more but perversely it's maintaining my interest far better than last season's "we're shit and we're winning" displays.

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

@Pogue

I find your 'cloud' argument to be rather facile.

Lets have a look at Chelsea and how many 'clouds' they had going into the season

Terry - Well past his best, close to being finished.
Luiz - Totally overrated player, a liability
A Cole - Another aging player on the downward spiral
Lampard - Yet another aging player on the downward spiral
César Azpilicueta - Is he really good enough for the top level?
Cahill - Another player with his top four credentials in question.
Mikel - s**t on a stick, pointless player
Torres - What a decline, a tragic shadow
Demba Ba - WTH?

That left

Hazard
Oscar

Two young player on a upwards curve.

Cech
Ivanovic
Mata
Ramires

Established and 'cloud' free players.

There were a few other squad non-entities (all clubs have them shock horror!!).

Mourinho made no marquee signings in the summer or winter window. He failed spectacularly to address the gaping hole in his squad also in the striking positions and some of the players were not even signed by him.

Yet still, despite his cloudy and inept squad he has them competing for the major honours that are but a distant dream for us. He has a vision, he has a plan and he can work well with what tools he has available to him.

 

[Chabon]

hich leaves a bunch of young players who might be good enough to be the core of a team good enough to challenge for the league (although major question marks over almost every one of them) and a bunch of 30+ year olds, from whom only Michael Carrick looked anywhere near close to his best last season.

We're never going to actually know if they don't get given a chance.

Not going to include any of our younger central defenders as there was such big question marks about their ability to stay fit. A pattern that's continued this season.

Smalling has been in 37 matchday squads this season, Jones 35. Jonny has missed a big chunk of games, yeah, but it's hist first significant injury in a few years. Like I've said a few times, it's only in recent weeks that we've actually had to use Vidic and Ferdinand. Their appearances prior to that were invariably down to Moyes preferirng to play them.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

@Pogue

I find your 'cloud' argument to be rather facile.

Lets have a look at Chelsea and how many 'clouds' they had going into the season

Terry - Well past his best, close to being finished.
Luiz - Totally overrated player, a liability
A Cole - Another aging player on the downward spiral
Lampard - Yet another aging player on the downward spiral
César Azpilicueta - Is he really good enough for the top level?
Cahill - Another player with his top four credentials in question.
Mikel - s**t on a stick, pointless player
Torres - What a decline, a tragic shadow
Demba Ba - WTH?

That left

Hazard
Oscar

Two young player on a upwards curve.

Cech
Ivanovic
Mata
Ramires

Established and 'cloud' free players.

There were a few other squad non-entities (all clubs have them shock horror!!).

Mourinho made no marquee signings in the summer or winter window. He failed spectacularly to address the gaping hole in his squad also in the striking positions and some of the players were not even signed by him.

Yet still, despite his cloudy and inept squad he has them competing for the major honours that are but a distant dream for us. He has a vision, he has a plan and he can work well with what tools he has available to him.

Sure he didn't. The 18 million quid spent on Schurrle, 32 million on Willian and 21 million on Matic was just chump change, right? Samuel Eto'o - once thought of as the best striker in Europe and all of 3 months older than arguably our best player (Carrick) last season - doesn't count either, I suppose.

By he way, the Terry renaissance is getting hype up a lot as evidence of Mourinho's genius. He's two years younger than Rio. The Rio of two seasons ago would be an invaluable member of our squad, as opposed to the increasingly immobile liability he's become in the more recent past. Frank Lampard's the same player this season as last. Someone who is only needed for the occasional cameo, with better options already in the squad. Ashley Cole is the same this season. Can you say he same about our own more senior players?

For the umpteenth fukking time, I do think Moyes should have done a lot better with the squad he inherited. Mourinho almost certainly could. I don't doubt that at least some of our players having a bad season could be playing at a much higher level in different circumstances. You're living in cloud cuckoo land, though, if you think that any manager - Mourinho included - wouldn't have decided that that squad needed significant investment to become competitive.

I think Scholes got his analysis on our squad spot on (he could have put the boot in to Moyes a bit more but let's ignore that for the moment). He's trained and played with almost everyone in our current squad and he clearly doesn't think the players who can provide solutions to the obvious deficiencies in our best XI are already at the club. Which speaks volumes really.

 

[Chabon]

The squad needed what it's needed for ages, strengthening at full back and in central midfield. Sadly, since the summer of 2012 we've spent a hundred million quid on a striker we didn't need, a winger we didn't need, a foul machine nobody needs and a number 10 who we have no room for. Obviously only half of that is Moyes' fault, but Jesus, he hasn't half doubled down on Fergie's bizarre recruitment strategy.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The squad needed what it's needed for ages, strengthening at full back and in central midfield. Sadly, since the summer of 2012 we've spent a hundred million quid on a striker we didn't need, a winger we didn't need, a foul machine nobody needs and a number 10 who we have no room for. Obviously only half of that is Moyes' fault, but Jesus, he hasn't half doubled down on Fergie's bizarre recruitment strategy.

Harsh but fair. You didn't mention Kagawa either.

I'm not sure central defence is sorted either. Although that's something that's only really become apparent in the last couple of seasons, to be fair.

In terms of pacy attacking midfielders or wingers we also seem to be a bit fecked. Again, not something you would have thought this time two years ago (although, to be fair to Fergie it was obviously on his mind, with the failed bids for Hazard and Moura)

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Actually, that's something else which is winding me up about the way the managerial change was handled. Fergie knew better than anyone the areas in which the squad needed strengthening looking in the medium to long term.

Us fans couldn't see the logic in going for Hazard or Moura but hindsight shows he knew exactly what he was doing. Why was the search for players like these apparently completely ignored in the last couple of transfer windows? Surely there should have been some kind of handover of the long term transfer strategy?

 

[#07]

Actually, that's something else which is winding me up about the way the managerial change was handled. Fergie knew better than anyone the areas in which the squad needed strengthening looking in the medium to long term.

Us fans couldn't see the logic in going for Hazard or Moura but hindsight shows he knew exactly what he was doing. Why was the search for players like these apparently completely ignored in the last couple of transfer windows? Surely there should have been some kind of handover of the long term transfer strategy?

If you look at Sir Alex's rumoured transfer targets: Hazard, Moura, Thiago, Herrera, Garay. Its clear he knew precisely what the squad needed going forward.

Given the way he handed the club over to Moyes I'd be totally stunned if he didn't say 'hey, yeah you're gonna wanna bring in players here, here and here'.

Its possible, of course, that Fergie wanted Moyes to have free reign and get to decide himself what to do. Fergie has always said the manager is the most important man at the club. Maybe he thought it best Moyes decide what players he could work with and go from there? But I remember reading that Fergie left Moyes dossiers on every player so I find it hard to believe he didn't say something about where he felt the squad needed a pick me up.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

If you look at Sir Alex's rumoured transfer targets: Hazard, Moura, Thiago, Herrera, Garay. Its clear he knew precisely what the squad needed going forward.

Given the way he handed the club over to Moyes I'd be totally stunned if he didn't say 'hey, yeah you're gonna wanna bring in players here, here and here'.

Its possible, of course, that Fergie wanted Moyes to have free reign and get to decide himself what to do. Fergie has always said the manager is the most important man at the club. Maybe he thought it best Moyes decide what players he could work with and go from there? But I remember reading that Fergie left Moyes dossiers on every player so I find it hard to believe he didn't say something about where he felt the squad needed a pick me up.

Wasn't there also rumours that we discounted Isco on the basis that he lacked pace?

Now here we are with the only quick attacking players in our squad a woefully out of form (for two years and counting) Tony V and Danny Welbeck playing out of position. It's very hard to know exactly how it all went so wrong but there's no doubt that somebody dropped the baton along the way. The idea that Moyes was supposed to start from scratch on the 1st July 2013 - assess the squad and decide who needs to come in and who isn't good enough - is just crazy. Surely a lot of these decisions could have been made beforehand so Fergie and him could work together on a strategy for our summer transfers. I guess he wanted to be his own man and Fergie didn't want to be seen to be managing the club after he retired but it all made Moyes; first season so much more complicated than it needed to be.

Of course, if it's 100% down to Moyes being a stubborn cnut and not wanting to listen to any advice from the previous manager than he's been hoist by his own petard so tough shit, really.

 

[Chabon]

I remain confident that Evans and Smalling can be an absolutely top class centre back pairing, as I think we all presumed was the idea when we signed the latter. In their first season, when Vidic was the best he's ever been but Rio was on the slide, they started just the six games together. That all seemed fair enough, but since then, despite Vidic missing huge chunks of every season, and Rio been a completely liability much of the time, we've seen our hoped for future defensive pairing start just 12 matches together in three seasons. Just look at this season, the pair of them have been fit to play together 24 times, and have had just the six games as a partnership. I mean there's some joy to be taken in how good they've looked in most of those games, but it's a fecking small sample size.

As for the rest, I think the Kagawa signing made sense as he brought something different to the squad, and was for great money too. I also didn't quite get the Hazard pursuit at the time (Nani was every bit as good back then) and in light of Januzaj's development I'm not that gutted. But Christ, if you offered me a choice between pulling off that deal and getting Van Persie, there's no fecking competition.

I've said a few times, towards the end I rather feel like Fergie gave up on long-term planning. He certainly developed an obsession with experience, and became blind to the obvious decline of certain of his old pros.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I remain confident that Evans and Smalling can be an absolutely top class centre back pairing, as I think we all presumed was the idea when we signed the latter. In their first season, when Vidic was the best he's ever been but Rio was on the slide, they started just the six games together. That all seemed fair enough, but since then, despite Vidic missing huge chunks of every season, and Rio been a completely liability much of the time, we've seen our hoped for future defensive pairing start just 12 matches together in three seasons. Just look at this season, the pair of them have been fit to play together 24 times, and have had just the six games as a partnership. I mean there's some joy to be taken in how good they've looked in most of those games, but it's a fecking small sample size.

As for the rest, I think the Kagawa signing made sense as he brought something different to the squad, and was for great money too. I also didn't quite get the Hazard pursuit at the time (Nani was every bit as good back then) and in light of Januzaj's development I'm not that gutted. But Christ, if you offered me a choice between pulling off that deal and getting Van Persie, there's no fecking competition.

I've said a few times, towards the end I rather feel like Fergie gave up on long-term planning. He certainly developed an obsession with experience, and became blind to the obvious decline of certain of his old pros.

I see the centre back dilemma in a slightly different light. I think that first Fergie - and now Moyes - consider even the old and slow versions of Rio and Vidic as a better bet than combining two our younger central defenders against the best opposition. That's looked particularly foolhardy in the season that's in it and hopefully the young guns will get a run between now and the end of the season.

This will, of course, probably depend on Jones not putting in any more of the pub footballer performance he put in against City and Smalling doing everything possible to get back to full fitness by, you know, not going out and getting steaming drunk of an evening.

Re: Hazard vs RvP I would have agreed with you at the time but I'm a terrible scout and am pretty cluless about overseas footballers. With hindsight, I couldn't have been more wrong.

 

[#07]

Wasn't there also rumours that we discounted Isco on the basis that he lacked pace?

Now here we are with the only quick attacking players in our squad a woefully out of form (for two years and counting) Tony V and Danny Welbeck playing out of position. It's very hard to know exactly how it all went so wrong but there's no doubt that somebody dropped the baton along the way. The idea that Moyes was supposed to start from scratch on the 1st July 2013 - assess the squad and decide who needs to come in and who isn't good enough - is just crazy. Surely a lot of these decisions could have been made beforehand so Fergie and him could work together on a strategy for our summer transfers. I guess he wanted to be his own man and Fergie didn't want to be seen to be managing the club after he retired but it all made Moyes; first season so much more complicated than it needed to be.

Of course, if it's 100% down to Moyes being a stubborn cnut and not wanting to listen to any advice from the previous manager than he's been hoist by his own petard so tough shit, really.

Yeah, I remember them talking about it on Revista de la Liga at the start of the season when Isco was in form. Graham Hunter, who as you know has known Fergie since the Aberdeen days, was saying Jim Lawlor and Fergie agreed Isco wasn't quick enough for United and the panel had a big laugh about it (like they knew more about United's style than Fergie and Jim Lawlor!?)

Who knows what happened in the summer. Maybe Fergie left targets he felt were open goals e.g. Thiago to give Moyes some good transfers under his belt and get some early momentum. Maybe Moyes wasn't sure those players fit the way he wanted to play? There's so many maybes and the story has changed so many times since last summer its impossible to really figure it out. We've been told both that Moyes knew he needed to do a massive rebuild before he got the job and that he wanted to assess the squad first, which I just don't get.

But Moyes seemed, at least early on, to have a clear idea of who he wanted around because some players e.g. Hernandez were quickly marginalised. So it seems hard to believe Moyes didn't have some idea of who he wanted to keep and who he wanted to get shot off.

The difficulty is as Moyes has never showed really how he wants United to play, how can you understand his decisions? If we were moving towards something like his Everton with wide men tucking in, lots of strength in the middle and width from the full backs you could understand why he wouldn't buy pacey players. But we dont look anything like that. We haven't even tried to be that.

 

[Blasphemy]

I remain confident that Evans and Smalling can be an absolutely top class centre back pairing, as I think we all presumed was the idea when we signed the latter. In their first season, when Vidic was the best he's ever been but Rio was on the slide, they started just the six games together. That all seemed fair enough, but since then, despite Vidic missing huge chunks of every season, and Rio been a completely liability much of the time, we've seen our hoped for future defensive pairing start just 12 matches together in three seasons. Just look at this season, the pair of them have been fit to play together 24 times, and have had just the six games as a partnership. I mean there's some joy to be taken in how good they've looked in most of those games, but it's a fecking small sample size.

As for the rest, I think the Kagawa signing made sense as he brought something different to the squad, and was for great money too. I also didn't quite get the Hazard pursuit at the time (Nani was every bit as good back then) and in light of Januzaj's development I'm not that gutted. But Christ, if you offered me a choice between pulling off that deal and getting Van Persie, there's no fecking competition.

I've said a few times, towards the end I rather feel like Fergie gave up on long-term planning. He certainly developed an obsession with experience, and became blind to the obvious decline of certain of his old pros.

I generally think that defending is a lot more about the system you play than the actual personnel. Within reason of course.

If you look at every side Mourinho's ever had they've all been quality defensively, no matter the personnel and at a lot of the clubs (Inter, Porto, 2nd Chelsea spell, Real) he's mostly just played the players he inherited from the last manager rather than splashing loads of money on defenders.

If we can't defend then I blame a lot of that on Moyes. I don't think Evans/Smalling/Jones are the highest level defenders by any means, all three are often pretty overrated on here but with the right manager and system they would be more than solid enough.

Yeah, I remember them talking about it on Revista de la Liga at the start of the season when Isco was in form. Graham Hunter, who as you know has known Fergie since the Aberdeen days, was saying Jim Lawlor and Fergie agreed Isco wasn't quick enough for United and the panel had a big laugh about it (like they knew more about United's style than Fergie and Jim Lawlor!?)

Well, I do think that saying Isco isn't quick enough for United is pretty idiotic too. Iniesta is as slow as Isco would he not cut it at United either?

It's perfectly fine to have someone of Isco's pace (he's not even that slow) provided you have pace in other areas. Writing off technically top level players for speed merchants and workhorses was one of Fergie's biggest flaws in his post Ronaldo career and it's why we have Young and Valencia out wide.