The 'Awful Squad' Brigade

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/20571835

We beat City nearly with the same team last year, at the Emptihad, that got humilated yesterday. I know they've improved and everything but that's the big difference. Bar a few players (Rooney, Januzaj maybe DDG) have played on their usual level for Moyes.

If some players were against him I'd say ok ship them out and let those play who back him and he deserves our patience. But we can't buy a whole new squad. We already Vidic on a free, who was our best player yesterday.
 
An Irish Red said:
Good managers get players playing above themselves; just look at Swansea or Southampton for proof of that. Our players haven't just magically turned useless over night, it's all to do with how they are coached and how they are instructed to play.

We could have brought Messi and Ronaldo on last night and it wouldn't have made a jot of difference.
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For maybe a few games. Over a season better players will defeat average players. I'm willing to concede the argument, but has there every been a situation where for an entire season, a team overperformed in the league? We've seen it before, recently promoted team shoots up the table, only to come back down.
 
adexkola said:
Barcelona won La Liga with a man stricken with cancer at the helm. No... they strolled to a league title. The lack of managerial input showed in the Champions League, where they stumbled to a semi final before being destroyed by Bayern. So they were able to defeat regular run of the mill teams. I was very depressed yesterday, but I cannot make the leap in logic to the conclusion that Moyes is causing half the team to perform way below standards. feck Moyes... yes... but some performances have been inexcusable.
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You can't compare the technical coaching the players at Barca receive with what our players most likely get here now though. Just look at the difference in passing options for the man on the ball, it's like night and day. They are actually coached to play technical football which our players are clearly not under Moyes.

If Barca had Alexis Sanchez anchored out on the wing trying to hit crosses from deep to Messi they wouldn't be winning anything either, as well as that.
 
adexkola said:
Barcelona won La Liga with a man stricken with cancer at the helm. No... they strolled to a league title. The lack of managerial input showed in the Champions League, where they stumbled to a semi final before being destroyed by Bayern. So they were able to defeat regular run of the mill teams. I was very depressed yesterday, but I cannot make the leap in logic to the conclusion that Moyes is causing half the team to perform way below standards. feck Moyes... yes... but some performances have been inexcusable.
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I think a lot of the players have lost confidence in Moyes.
 
Man for man we have a better squad than Liverpool.

Their manager favours possession based attacking football. He talks his teams up and instills confidence in them.

Our manager likes his teams compact, long balls into the box. He talks of "trying", "hoping" and "making it difficult for the other team".

That's why they are scoring goals at will going for the title after years in the wilderness. While we are scraping wins due to set pieces and are going into the wilderness after years of titles.
 
adexkola said:
....

Rooney, Januzaj. Maybe DDG. That's not much, but at least get the facts straight?
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DDG isn't better than last season IMO. Januzaj of course it is.

Rooney argument is a bit strange. He is undoubtedly better than last season. And better than in 2010-2011 season (when he had a good 3-4 months spell preceded by pure mediocricity). However he has been this season worse than in any other season and significantly worse than in 2005-2006, 2007-2008, 2009-2010 and 2011-2012. I am not sure that we can give credit to Moyes for Rooney playing worse than in half of seasons here, just because he is playing better than last year.
 
kouroux said:
We need to find players of quality and who were in situations similar to Mata (not playing in the first 11 of their team and therefore available for the right money). It's gonna be impossible to buy players who regularly feature in the starting 11 of their top teams.
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Plenty of them to choose from to be fair - Coentrao, Song, perhaps even Di Maria.
 
Revan said:
Didn't Vidal just signed a new contract worth 10+m for year?

It depends how much Glazers will spend but at the end of the day it depends if we will have competition from other clubs. Lets say Bayern decides to not offer more than 6m for Kroos. We decide to offer 10m. But then at-least one of Chelsea/City/Barca/Madrid/PSG will match that offer. We are talking for one of the best midfielders in the world. Why would Kroos choose us? All those teams are miles better than us, play better football, have better managers and are located in more exciting cities (well, bar City). I think that the same goes for Fabregas, if Barca would have accepted our offer, a lot of clubs would have matched it. We usually lost (bar RVP, Berba and Young - all players in whom City was interested though they weren't a big team when we signed the first two) even with Sir Alex who almost guaranteed trophies and with UCL. Without neither of them, our chances likely will be lower.

And I am not even counting what may happen in the summer. I would be surprised if some of the players who will depart won't talk to media about how bad Moyes is. They always do. Even in cases when the manager is better. Doesn't neccesarily mean that our targets will get affected from that, but it may give double thoughts to them. If the legends about his training methods and tactics are even half true and come from reliable sources (like (ex-)United players who might be friends with the targets), I guess that a lot of players will avoid him like the plague.

The other debate has been done to death and we are in completely different sides. I was more being curious why you think that Moyes is a good manager.
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Well, what you're saying above would be disadvantages any manager would face. Until we become what looks like a shoe-in for the CL (like Bayern) or a glamorous location (like all those others), what we can offer a player will be money and the possible aura of a historically great football club. The managers who can pull players by virtue of their personal magnetism are few and far between. There are posters here suggesting we hire old man Trap now - the fact is that the grand majority of managers out there won't make a huge difference in terms of pulling power. The most important factors for any player will be money and the chance to win trophies.

The bold part: I've always liked Moyes as a manager. He has always struck me as clever enough, ruthless enough, adaptable enough. I don't see him as a stone age tactician. I see him as a man who follows the developments in the game and who is willing to change his approach in tune with the qualities of the players he has to his disposition. He has been underwhelming at United so far. I'm not pleased at all with what he has accomplished. But I see mitigating circumstances. And I hope he'll come good for us. That's about it. But I'm not willing to wait around forever for him to come good. As I've said before, he should get this season and the summer window. We need to be there or thereabouts next season - if not he has blown his chance. Provided he is properly backed up financially, that is. And I believe he will be.
 
adexkola said:
For maybe a few games. Over a season better players will defeat average players. I'm willing to concede the argument, but has there every been a situation where for an entire season, a team overperformed in the league? We've seen it before, recently promoted team shoots up the table, only to come back down.
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Well if thats the case we have had newly promoted form for 3 years... So please explain??
 
Raoul said:
Perhaps it does, but the question is whether such sudden changes in form are attributable to each individual or whether they are environmental (Manager/tactics/atmosphere).
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Indeed. And that remains unclear on the whole. But to state the fact that we have players who have played in three CL finals (going back six years) in the squad is really neither here nor there.
 
kouroux said:
I have rarely seen a more obvious than this one where a manager clearly affects badly the performances of his players.
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Aye, but maybe after 26 years with one manager some United fans no longer understand that it's no actually unreasonable to expect a new manager to do some decent work.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
As I've said before, he should get this season and the summer window. We need to be there or thereabouts next season - if not he has blown his chance. Provided he is properly backed up financially, that is. And I believe he will be.
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I just don't think it should be set in stone that he gets 'X amount of time'. It depends on the situation. It looks like in the summer we could be losing the likes of RVP, Hernandez and Kagawa, who in two years at United never had a manager who fully knew how to use him. It would be a huge shame and I'm just not optimistic enough about Moyes to accept that. So if it's him or this trio, among others, I'll pick the players to stay and him to go.
 
Of course our squad could be better, but Moyes and his apologists seem to be under the impression you need a perfect squad with perfect balance in order to do a competent job. Chelsea's centre back options of an ancient Terry, Playstation Luiz and average Gary Cahill weren't considered up to much but here they are boasting the best defence in the league. Their strikers are so bad their manager mocks them behind closed doors. Central midfield options of Mikel, Essien, Lampard and Ramires were underwhelming. And yet a top class manager can overcome the fact he's not got a world class player in every position to top the league anyway.

adexkola said:
My point is that league performance is a strong indication of the quality of the team. I don't think we are massively underperforming.
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If Mourinho had taken over United and Moyes took Chelsea in the summer, you could basically reverse the clubs current situations, I'm sure of that.
 
Amir said:
I just don't think it should be set in stone that he gets 'X amount of time'. It depends on the situation. It looks like in the summer we could be losing the likes of RVP, Hernandez and Kagawa, who in two years at United never had a manager who fully knew how to use him. It would be a huge shame and I'm just not optimistic enough about Moyes to accept that. So if it's him or this trio, among others, I'll pick the players to stay and him to go.
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I see your point. Personally I don't place any of those three players in a "crucial" category, though. RVP is easily the best of them and I really hope he isn't unsettled, as they say. But as a goal provider in the most advanced role we still have Rooney, who I consider to be equally valuable to us - if not more. Hernandez is a very likeable player who also happens to be a great poacher. But he is hardly the player you want to sack your manager over. Nor is Kagawa, who has so far seemed incapable of putting himself about enough in a team that will likely never allow him to perform his Dortmund role of old.
 
Dominos said:
If Mourinho had taken over United and Moyes took Chelsea in the summer, you could basically reverse the clubs current situations, I'm sure of that.
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Agree with this hugely.

Those people who said they wouldn't pick Mourinho as he "Only" guarantees 2-3 years success, I honestly want to round up and force them to watch our "worst of" compilation. And perhaps beat them around the head a lot.

It doesn't take a hindsight king to see a guy with a colossal ego who wins everywhere he goes was a perfect next manager. Not some guy who'd never won anything.
 
Sandikan said:
Agree with this hugely.

Those people who said they wouldn't pick Mourinho as he "Only" guarantees 2-3 years success, I honestly want to round up and force them to watch our "worst of" compilation. And perhaps beat them around the head a lot.

It doesn't take a hindsight king to see a guy with a colossal ego who wins everywhere he goes was a perfect next manager. Not some guy who'd never won anything.
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To be fair, lots of people had doubts about Mourinho but how many suggested Moyes would be a better option?

Lots of us have tried to understand why Moyes was chosen once he was in place but I can't think of anyone who campaigned for him to replace Fergie.

On a side note, this is very good and kind of reflects where I'm at now.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/feb/26/david-moyes-manchester-united-manager-job
 
Yes and no. SAF made this team look better than it was, apart from the attack, the team is only good to average, and many of you massively overrate your defender prospects.

Its not an awful squad and when confident they should be in the top four, but I dont think this is a title winning team for any manager other than SAF or maybe Jose.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
To be fair, lots of people had doubts about Mourinho but how many suggested Moyes would be a better option?

Lots of us have tried to understand why Moyes was chosen once he was in place but I can't think of anyone who campaigned for him to replace Fergie.

On a side note, this is very good and kind of reflects where I'm at now.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/feb/26/david-moyes-manchester-united-manager-job
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I think most people who welcomed Moyes - over Maureen - did so because they felt it was a better long-term option. Which means they bought into the long-term strategy, basically. That's what I did myself, at any rate. I liked the idea of Moyes, Fergie's chosen man, with the latter still around to provide him with guidance and all that.

I don't recall anyone holding Moyes forth as the obviously best candidate for the job, regardless of any strategies or circumstances. And we all knew very well that he didn't come with a great CV - as did the board. So bringing up that point again and again, as some people do, is a bit tiresome. He wasn't hired because he was the best qualified candidate in terms of trophy haul - everybody knows this.
 
Dominos said:
Of course our squad could be better, but Moyes and his apologists seem to be under the impression you need a perfect squad with perfect balance in order to do a competent job. Chelsea's centre back options of an ancient Terry, Playstation Luiz and average Gary Cahill weren't considered up to much but here they are boasting the best defence in the league. Their strikers are so bad their manager mocks them behind closed doors. Central midfield options of Mikel, Essien, Lampard and Ramires were underwhelming. And yet a top class manager can overcome the fact he's not got a world class player in every position to top the league anyway.


If Mourinho had taken over United and Moyes took Chelsea in the summer, you could basically reverse the clubs current situations, I'm sure of that.
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Nope. I don't think Chelsea would drop to that level. Would they be on top with Moyes instead of Mourinho? I don't think so. Would they be 7th? No. Rob tends to agree.
 
Amir said:
Aye, but maybe after 26 years with one manager some United fans no longer understand that it's no actually unreasonable to expect a new manager to do some decent work.
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What Fergie has done was having set the bar very high for United. Many United fans did not know the feeling of being mid table. SIGH
 
ItsEssexRob said:
Yes and no. SAF made this team look better than it was, apart from the attack, the team is only good to average, and many of you massively overrate your defender prospects.

Its not an awful squad and when confident they should be in the top four, but I dont think this is a title winning team for any manager other than SAF or maybe Jose.
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That's a worry. No question about it.
 
ItsEssexRob said:
Yes and no. SAF made this team look better than it was, apart from the attack, the team is only good to average, and many of you massively overrate your defender prospects.

Its not an awful squad and when confident they should be in the top four, but I dont think this is a title winning team for any manager other than SAF or maybe Jose.
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I agree with this. Rafael, Smalling, Cleverley are all massively overrated here. They have been responsible for so many goals. Evra hasn't been good enough.

I think on the whole we have been judging players on how well they can play rather than how well they are playing. Bit more ruthlessness needed, but there's nowt we can do at the moment.
 
When was the last time we scored an injury time winner under Moyes?

We used to do it a lot more often, when our squad was much better.
 
Danny1982 said:
When was the last time we scored an injury time winner under Moyes?

We used to do it a lot more often, when our squad was much better.
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In the league at least we haven't scored a goal after 80 minutes that has made a difference.
 
Danny1982 said:
When was the last time we scored an injury time winner under Moyes?

We used to do it a lot more often, when our squad was much better.
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Two seasons ago, someone started a thread about how come we never win games after going behind. Last season that was turned on it's head and we won a bunch of games after conceding first.

The common theme has been conceding the first goal far too often. A trend that continued - not started - this season.
 
adexkola said:
Nope. I don't think Chelsea would drop to that level. Would they be on top with Moyes instead of Mourinho? I don't think so. Would they be 7th? No. Rob tends to agree.
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AVB who had more credentials than Moyes near enough dragged Chelsea to that level. Absolutely no reason to think Moyes couldn't manage it as well given how out of his depth he is here, and there would possibly be even under more pressure and scrutiny at Chelsea with their inpatient fans and owner. They'd certainly be lagging behind Liverpool, maybe not 11 points, but then again they could be even worse.
 
adexkola said:
:lol: it just pulls me back in
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I should be doing my homework but the fact that I have never experienced something like this as a supporter of Manchester United just keeps bringing me back. As bad as the sitaution is, it's constantly keeping me on my toes waiting for what's going to happen next
 
adexkola said:
My point is that league performance is a strong indication of the quality of the team. I don't think we are massively underperforming.
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We don't need a manager at all then because things will even itself out during a season without one anyway. The answer is still sack Moyes then because by this argument we don't need him.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Two seasons ago, someone started a thread about how come we never win games after going behind. Last season that was turned on it's head and we won a bunch of games after conceding first.

The common theme has been conceding the first goal far too often. A trend that continued - not started - this season.
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The point is not about conceding first, is it?

The point is quite clear. Are you telling me that you recognize that it's Manchester United playing these days in the last 15 minutes of a game when we're behind under Moyes?

We needed 2 goals against Real Madrid last year with 10 men and we showed much more fight than this cr*p.
 
Im sorry but looking at the Chelsea squad compared to ours I dont see how there is any difference in quality at all. We have a great strike force while they might aswell have no strikers. Midfield they are strong but even then think about the players they have. Only Hazard, Oscar and Ramirez are class the rest are worse than our options We boast Mata as well as Kagawa who have to potential to be similarly frightening . Defensively Smalling, Jones, Vidic, Ferdinand are all easily as good as Terry, Luiz or Cahill.Ivanovic is better than our full backs but Azpilicueta is worse than both our options only difference is his manager has installed him with confidence. For me roles reversed Mourinho has us top whilst Moyes has Chelsea in 7th.
 
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ItsEssexRob said:
Yes and no. SAF made this team look better than it was, apart from the attack, the team is only good to average, and many of you massively overrate your defender prospects.

Its not an awful squad and when confident they should be in the top four, but I dont think this is a title winning team for any manager other than SAF or maybe Jose.
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Worth pointing out 4 points separate Liverpool and Chelsea. If we should be in the top 4, that'd put us within a whisker of top spot.

The quality of the squad is being looked at through the Moyes era perspective. Again, Mourinho turns his team into the best defensively in that league pretty much anywhere he goes, which he's done with you lot again. He'd have our young defenders outperforming the majority of the leagues, I've no doubt about it. We could also have easily claimed your squad was shit when AVB was making a mockery of your league form.
 
redevil2 said:
What Fergie has done was having set the bar very high for United. Many United fans did not know the feeling of being mid table. SIGH
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I don't think we have a problem with midtable (though we're not really there, being sixth...). It's just about getting the best out of what we have.
 
redevil2 said:
What Fergie has done was having set the bar very high for United. Many United fans did not know the feeling of being mid table. SIGH
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Why would we accept to be midtable when we know we're much better than this?!

We're United fans, not Moyes fans.
 
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