Sorry but that's mental.
You keep mentioning our "2 world class strikers" as the best element of our squad yet they can't even form a decent partnership! (a problem that pre-dated Moyes)
The 'Awful Squad' Brigade
- Thread starter Sarni
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Sorry but that's mental.
You keep mentioning our "2 world class strikers" as the best element of our squad yet they can't even form a decent partnership! (a problem that pre-dated Moyes)
I cant even begin to recollect the number of times I thought to myself over the last few seasons saying "If it weren't for fergie, there isn't a chance in hell for this squad to be competing for the title". United fans have forever blamed fergie for not signing top players when ronaldo and tevez left. Even now for majority of the fans, the 2008 double winning squad played the best football we have played in the last decade.
Ignore the fact that I talked about their whole squad. Yes our striking options is our best area on the pitch. I'm comparing the two squads when Moyes and mourinho took over.
Well, for one, despite having had at last two of the three available for 36 of our fixtures, we've only put out a pairing of our younger centre backs 12 times. Moyes has instead preferred to make heavy use of a player who was past it years ago and another who has so obviously mentally checked out that he's more likely to provide a red card than a world class performance.
Is this accounting for them being deployed as RB's to cover Rafael's injuries?
We played carrick cb, smalling rb half the season, we have to play buttner vs bayern and we have giggs (our best CM) and cleverly, young and valencia as first team footballers and we are expecting the team to be beating City. That sentence there should make people think 'yeah in fairness we do need to improve the squad over summer to compete'. I don't know if there's any other response
On a handful of those occassions, yeah, but then the only reason they've had to is because Moyes refused to play Fabio and then sold him. Fabio hasn't been great of late, but, like the other 19 starting right backs in the premier league, he's a better full back than Chris Smalling is.
I like both Smalling and Jones but there's been a depressing amount of evidence, this season and last, that they're both still a work in progress. Predictably, Rio is getting (deserved) dog's abuse for his inept performance against City but Jones fell a loooooong way short of convincing anyone he should have started more games this season. Evans is probably the only young central defender of the three to consistently look like producing a better performance than Rio or Vida have produced on their rare good days this season.
The problem is a lot of people talk about players like a kid would. So and so is average, so and so is world class, but it doesnt work like that.
Aside from the very best ie Ronaldo Messi etc, what makes players great or average or decent is very thin, its not as clear cut as you think.
What made people get the idea Cahill was an average defender? The fact that he was at Bolton? Or the fact that during his tenure with Chelsea aside from the CL win our defence was rather average? Suddenly he looks like a rock, so technically he had that ability all along, but needed the system, confidence and experience to show it.
Even under SAF, Uniteds defence has been rather suspect for a couple of years now,dating to that season where you kept conceding 2 goal leads but eventually won the title still, so the defence isnt a case of digressing just because of the change in management. Those seasons defence was sugar coated by the attack, last season in particular when many losses or draws were turned into wins late on by a stunning RVP.
This season aside from the problems of the change in staff, the defence and midfield is not getting bailed out and its being shown up. There arent really any changes needed to the wings or the attack and obviously the GK, but I would be worried trusting my future to Jones, Smalling, Fellaini, Cleverley, Welbeck and Rafael, all but Rafael are unproven and been rather poor this season, Rafael has shown glimpses, but remains in average overall form. From what I saw over the past few games I would be concerned about how many of the players seem to make basic footballing mistakes such as poor passing failing to control a ball and falling over.
Its a massive exaggeration to say the squad is awful, and clearly not true, its a top four squad, but at the same time people calling a lot of these players 'brilliant' when they clearly arent is skirting over the issues, an issue that any manager who comes in will still have.
Aside from the very best ie Ronaldo Messi etc, what makes players great or average or decent is very thin, its not as clear cut as you think.
What made people get the idea Cahill was an average defender? The fact that he was at Bolton? Or the fact that during his tenure with Chelsea aside from the CL win our defence was rather average? Suddenly he looks like a rock, so technically he had that ability all along, but needed the system, confidence and experience to show it.
Even under SAF, Uniteds defence has been rather suspect for a couple of years now,dating to that season where you kept conceding 2 goal leads but eventually won the title still, so the defence isnt a case of digressing just because of the change in management. Those seasons defence was sugar coated by the attack, last season in particular when many losses or draws were turned into wins late on by a stunning RVP.
This season aside from the problems of the change in staff, the defence and midfield is not getting bailed out and its being shown up. There arent really any changes needed to the wings or the attack and obviously the GK, but I would be worried trusting my future to Jones, Smalling, Fellaini, Cleverley, Welbeck and Rafael, all but Rafael are unproven and been rather poor this season, Rafael has shown glimpses, but remains in average overall form. From what I saw over the past few games I would be concerned about how many of the players seem to make basic footballing mistakes such as poor passing failing to control a ball and falling over.
Its a massive exaggeration to say the squad is awful, and clearly not true, its a top four squad, but at the same time people calling a lot of these players 'brilliant' when they clearly arent is skirting over the issues, an issue that any manager who comes in will still have.
This is true. Unfortunately Evans is also the player with the least potential of the three, so there's less of a long term upside from making him first choice. It'll be interesting to see what we do at CB next season but I suspect we'll be looking to bring in another first choice player as we'll struggle to get any real consistency from any combination of Jones/Smalling/Evans. It is a problem area, despite the relatively good level of talent those three possess.
I've thought this too, but what's weird is the last 7 years had been the greatest in the clubs history, and in the domestical league at least, the greatest in any English Clubs history
Not only that, but we managed to brush off challenges from two new very strong clubs (with the tons of money they have), and still stayed at the top, relegating a club that was at our level but stood still after the emergence of the new challengers (Arsenal) to a consistent 4th place finish.
So it's not that we just remained at the top with that squad, we actually improved over the previous 10 years.
I'd say De Gea, Rafael, Carrick, Kagawa, Januzaj, Mata, Fellaini, Rooney, RvP and Welbeck are top 4 material.
Some of the names left out that list may be bemusing but at the moment I don't class Jones/Smalling/Evans as top top players. They most likely will be or can be on their day but their still developing especially in the case of Jones/Smalling while Evans can be inconsistent and I couldn't imagine him being a starter for the other top 4 teams.
Also I feel if Fellaini was playing for Chelsea instead of Matic or for Arsenal he would of stood out as good top 4 player, he is struggling in our system at the minute and with our poor form. This season is a write of for him but next season is when we can judge him and I feel he will show his worth. Even Mata has struggled at us so far and there's no doubting his ability.
De Gea is the best keeper in the Premiership for me, and Rooney & RvP are in the top 5 strikers. Welbeck is not far behind Sturridge who is banging in the goals for Liverpool, he's a number 9 who will never really get a true run of games there.
Although I believe our two CM's are good players, they are not compatible together. We need a creative midfielder and a box-to-box midfielder. Fellaini and Carrick in a two man midfield would never work therefore lies our problems in terms of creativity. Also they struggle due to the system we play and the poor form of our wingers.
Our defence is another massive problem. There is no dominant figure in the back, most strikers would fancy their chances against any pairing of our CBs which would of never happened a few years, also the same with most wingers v Evra these days. Even during Fergie's last year, we were leaking goals far too easily.
Some of the names left out that list may be bemusing but at the moment I don't class Jones/Smalling/Evans as top top players. They most likely will be or can be on their day but their still developing especially in the case of Jones/Smalling while Evans can be inconsistent and I couldn't imagine him being a starter for the other top 4 teams.
Also I feel if Fellaini was playing for Chelsea instead of Matic or for Arsenal he would of stood out as good top 4 player, he is struggling in our system at the minute and with our poor form. This season is a write of for him but next season is when we can judge him and I feel he will show his worth. Even Mata has struggled at us so far and there's no doubting his ability.
De Gea is the best keeper in the Premiership for me, and Rooney & RvP are in the top 5 strikers. Welbeck is not far behind Sturridge who is banging in the goals for Liverpool, he's a number 9 who will never really get a true run of games there.
Although I believe our two CM's are good players, they are not compatible together. We need a creative midfielder and a box-to-box midfielder. Fellaini and Carrick in a two man midfield would never work therefore lies our problems in terms of creativity. Also they struggle due to the system we play and the poor form of our wingers.
Our defence is another massive problem. There is no dominant figure in the back, most strikers would fancy their chances against any pairing of our CBs which would of never happened a few years, also the same with most wingers v Evra these days. Even during Fergie's last year, we were leaking goals far too easily.
'Brushed off' is a very polite way to put it.
Fellaini??? You must be joking. Never a top player. Average at best and not consistent enough. No improvement on our current midfield and a liability. Why do you think Chelsea or Arsenal didn't come in for him last summer? Cos up against even mid table clubs he gets found out. We should be looking for much better midfielder, one that plays there every week and leads by example. Fellaini will never be this.
True but I think the standard of the pl changed drastically after ronaldo left. Chelsea were still struggling trying to replace Jose and city hadn't still signed Mancini. Even after Mancini took charge at City it was mostly a two horse race for the title.
I know. Says it all really. Another good reason to sack him.But Fellaini was bought by Moyes
The 'squad' debate suffers because of the extremes that the media have gone to to discredit our squad. Everybody can see the flaws and deficiencies, but it is by no means an awful squad.
Our best XI can match any team in the PL on paper. The problem lies, ultimately, with how the squad is utilised.
Our best XI can match any team in the PL on paper. The problem lies, ultimately, with how the squad is utilised.
It's not that weird.
With Rio, Vidic and Evra at their best our defence was second to none. Arguably the best in the world. That's a big fecking deal. Made all the difference in a number of seasons. Especially in Europe.
Scholes was a key CM for most of those years, with Giggs still a regular contributor when we needed a bit of magic to open teams up.
All of these players were world class (by any definition) and all of them have gone over the hill at more or less the same time. Have any of them been adequately replaced? I used to think so but these last two seasons has me not so sure.
At a level below them you had Carrick in his footballing prime and Fletcher at his workaholic best. Plus cameo contributions from a flaky but occasional big game performer like Hargreaves.
Compare those midfield options with what we have now you can see why we looked so strong a few years back but so vulnerable more recently.
Come on. Any team? Do you really believe that?
On paper is the key term. City's is probably better, I guess.
DDG
Rafael - Jones - Evans - Evra
Carrick - Fletcher
Mata - Rooney - Kagawa
RVP
On paper, that looks pretty good to me. Rafael - Jones - Evans - Evra
Carrick - Fletcher
Mata - Rooney - Kagawa
RVP
My overall point is that we do not have an awful squad, we have a flawed squad, but one whereby if used properly, could be quite successful. Domestically, at least.
I wonder if this is true and if it is to me it in addition to Fergie asking the fans to be patient with Moyes at the beginning of the season indicates Fergie understood the size of the problem for utd over the next couple of seasons. http://thepeoplesperson.com/2014/03...w-manchester-united-players-need-to-be-sold/?
I agree we don't have a flawed squad. But in the long term we would need 2 CMs who are mobile and good defensively, and a new, better CB and a LB. And of course, somebody who knew how to manage them.
I am guessing that fergie thinks fellaini was the wrong buy..
I think City's is quite a lot better.
Goalkeepers - Pretty even really, both good keepers who make the occassional mistake.
Defence - Aside from the woeful Demichellis City's defence is comfortably better. Clichy's better than Evra these days, while Zabaleta is better than Rafael. Kompany is quite a lot better than Jones or Evans.
Midfield - Fernandinho/Toure vs Carrick/Fletcher. A total no contest in City's favour.
Wingers/AM - Navas has more about him than Valencia/Young. Same with Silva being better than Mata this season at least. Nasri's better than Kagawa as well, in English football anyway.
Strikers - Rooney/RVP/Hernandez/Welbeck vs Aguero/Negredo/Dzeko/Jovetic. I think Aguero's probably the best there by a whisker and I'd take Dzeko, Jovetic and Negredo over Hernandez or Welbeck but there's not too much in it. The main different is that RVP/Rooney don't work as a partnership where as Aguero/Negredo have been quality together.
Absolutely no chance.
I dunno. In my most optimistic moments that XI looks great. When I think back on the reality of the last couple of seasons it looks kind of poor.
Every member of that back four is either constantly getting injured or over the hill. Fletcher's a shadow of his former self. RvP's back to his sick note Arsenal days and both Mata and Kagawa are playing in positions where they've hardly set the world on fire. We've also no guarantees Carrick will get back to the form of last season, bearing in mind his age.
When even our best XI is so obviously flawed on paper it is a bit of a worry.
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On paper though Mata Rooney RVP does look good. Kagawa hasnt been able to prove himself fully in the EPL though and the rest bar DDG are fading or a concern.
The same Welbeck who justified dropping Rooney against Real Madrid last season. Yeah right.
Welbeck is better than anyone of your current strikers.
A couple of years ago Welbeck was first choice striker for a team which got 89 points and missed out on the title by a whisker. Since then he's improved every aspect of his game substantially.
No chance he'll ever be good enough for a top four team, really?
No chance he'll ever be good enough for a top four team, really?
He's got buckets of potential, but has he ever actually stuck his fecking tongue down your fecking throat?
Thats not exactly saying much.
I dont fecking know why you fecking ask to be fecking honest.
(but seriously, I don't even know what the sentence means)
9 League goals that season (according to wiki). Some first choice striker.
So he's clearly more than top 4 material then, and he has potential to become a regular starter for a title winning side.
Yes the same Welbeck who scored 2 goals in 40 appearances last season.
No because neither of our 3 strikers should be at a top four side either, although Eto'o has actually got 11 goals and 6 assists, which isnt that bad.