The 'Awful Squad' Brigade

[Danny1982]

I generally think that defending is a lot more about the system you play than the actual personnel. Within reason of course.

If you look at every side Mourinho's ever had they've all been quality defensively, no matter the personnel and at a lot of the clubs (Inter, Porto, 2nd Chelsea spell, Real) he's mostly just played the players he inherited from the last manager rather than splashing loads of money on defenders.

If we can't defend then I blame a lot of that on Moyes. I don't think Evans/Smalling/Jones are the highest level defenders by any means, all three are often pretty overrated on here but with the right manager and system they would be more than solid enough.

Spot on. Totally agree.

 

[fishfingers15]

Of course it's Fergie's fault. We have a terrible, imbalanced squad. Moyes is doing his best to set it right. You feckers are out of your bloody mind.

 

[Rowem]

So how does everyone actually rank our squad then? Rather just going backwards and forwards about what or who is to blame. Blame-hungry animals that we are.

I'd say we have a lot of strength in depth compared to all the other sides, even compared to City. However I think our first XI is probably the 4th best in the league. With proper management we should be pushing our way towards the top. Moyes has therefore drastically underperformed in taking us to 7th, however there are also significant improvements that can be made.

What say you?

 

[Lu Tze]

So how does everyone actually rank our squad then? Rather just going backwards and forwards about what or who is to blame. Blame-hungry animals that we are.

I'd say we have a lot of strength in depth compared to all the other sides, even compared to City. However I think our first XI is probably the 4th best in the league. With proper management we should be pushing our way towards the top. Moyes has therefore drastically underperformed in taking us to 7th, however there are also significant improvements that can be made.

What say you?

Same. 4th. With improvements over the summer 2/3rd.

 

[Blasphemy]

So how does everyone actually rank our squad then? Rather just going backwards and forwards about what or who is to blame. Blame-hungry animals that we are.

I'd say we have a lot of strength in depth compared to all the other sides, even compared to City. However I think our first XI is probably the 4th best in the league. With proper management we should be pushing our way towards the top. Moyes has therefore drastically underperformed in taking us to 7th, however there are also significant improvements that can be made.

What say you?

I assume you mean behind Liverpool not Arsenal?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I thought 4th or 5th at the beginning of the season, allowing for dropped points due to getting used to a new manager.

Mata's improved us but didn't expect Vidic, Evra and Rio to all hit the wall in the same season - so that will be a problem next season. Plus, if Moyes goes we've got teething pains of a new manager all over again.

Soooooo... Without any new signings in the summer we'll be fighting it out for fifth. How much higher we aspire to finish will depend on how well we perform in the summer transfer window and whether or not we get rid of Moyes.

 

[soapythecat]

I thought 4th or 5th at the beginning of the season, allowing for dropped points due to getting used to a new manager.

Mata's improved us but didn't expect Vidic, Evra and Rio to all hit the wall in the same season - so that will be a problem next season. Plus, if Moyes goes we've got teething pains of a new manager all over again.

Soooooo... Without any new signings in the summer we'll be fighting it out for fifth. How much higher we aspire to finish will depend on how well we perform in the summer transfer window and whether or not we get rid of Moyes.

I have been hounded in another thread for saying that I thought the club would struggle to finish 4th at the start of the season. There will be nothing between 5th and 7th come end of May, so we are pretty much where I would have this squad.

People knock me for this, but I didn't see many, if at all any, people on here suggesting that this 100-200m required to rebuild to get competitive is nonsense.

If there is any good to come out of this season will be how much it has highlighted the need for major transformation. It won't happen in the summer, but the club must now be aware of how big a rebuild is needed.

A rubbish season but definitely exciting times ahead (if CEO pulls his finger out).

 

[steffyr2]

We have a team of mismanaged players -- Rio played too often and then too little, players too many to mention who are played in the wrong position, wrong formations.....

Honestly, I've wondered lately if Moyes sees his best path to keeping his job is to make the players look bad, because no one would set the team up that way if they wanted to win.

At the end of last year, people were talking about our young team full of budding stars -- plus all the money stored up for the new manager to use.

What have we got this year? A cool room full of iPADs.

 

[Rowem]

I assume you mean behind Liverpool not Arsenal?

Why do you assume that?

 

[fishfingers15]

In my opinion, we have the third best squad in the league with potential to beat City who had a new manager in charge with no Premier League experience.

I thought 4th or 5th at the beginning of the season, allowing for dropped points due to getting used to a new manager.

Mata's improved us but didn't expect Vidic, Evra and Rio to all hit the wall in the same season - so that will be a problem next season. Plus, if Moyes goes we've got teething pains of a new manager all over again.

Soooooo... Without any new signings in the summer we'll be fighting it out for fifth. How much higher we aspire to finish will depend on how well we perform in the summer transfer window and whether or not we get rid of Moyes.

Mental post. Are you serious? How have we regressed in an year with additions of Mata and Fellaini to 4th/5th in the League. That's behind Arsenal and Liverpool. If our new expectation is that we'll be 'fighting it out' for the fifth position, with no new signings with the same manager, that's some job the new management has pulled on our fans. Basically we are saying, we are 7th now and with some luck we'll improve a position or two in the league. Where's the improvement from the new coach then?

Allowing dropped points doesn't apply for City, Everton, Chelsea and Spurs now? All the three changed managers, one in the middle of the season.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

So how does everyone actually rank our squad then? Rather just going backwards and forwards about what or who is to blame. Blame-hungry animals that we are.

I'd say we have a lot of strength in depth compared to all the other sides, even compared to City. However I think our first XI is probably the 4th best in the league. With proper management we should be pushing our way towards the top. Moyes has therefore drastically underperformed in taking us to 7th, however there are also significant improvements that can be made.

What say you?

Pretty much this, yes.

However, there are too many X factors even in our best on paper XI for my liking. CB partnership, Evra at LB, any CM pair we can sport. And then there's the unfortunate fact that Rooney and RVP are nowhere near the fearsome combination they should be.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Mental post. Are you serious? How have we regressed in an year with additions of Mata and Fellaini to 4th/5th in the League. That's behind Arsenal and Liverpool. If our new expectation is that we'll be 'fighting it out' for the fifth position, with no new signings with the same manager, that's some job the new management has pulled on our fans. Basically we are saying, we are 7th now and with some luck we'll improve a position or two in the league. Where's the improvement from the new coach then?

What word from the phrase "at the beginning of the season" did you struggle with?

I'm putting you on ignore, to save us both some grief. Cheerio.

 

[Kag]

Second best squad in the league.

De Gea
Rafael Smalling Jones Evra
Carrick Fellaini
Januzaj Mata Kagawa
Rooney

...is the second best starting XI in the league provided it was played regularly, confident and managed by coaches that were worthy of working with such quality. Talent is obvious to those that can see it, not to mention those that don't harbour the grass is greener syndrome that boast a refusal to understand potential other problems and faults in other teams, only choosing to scrutinising the bad and badder (sic) in ours.

 

[fishfingers15]

What word from the phrase "at the beginning of the season" did you struggle with?

I'm putting you on ignore, to save us both some grief. Cheerio.

"At the beginning of the season" absolutely makes no difference to that post.

Best news of the day so far.

 

[fishfingers15]

Second best squad in the league.

De Gea
Rafael Smalling Jones Evra
Carrick Fellaini
Januzaj Mata Kagawa
Rooney

...is the second best starting XI in the league provided it was played regularly, confident and managed by coaches that were worthy of working with such quality. Talent is obvious to those that can see it, not to mention those that don't harbour the grass is greener syndrome that boast a refusal to understand potential other problems and faults in other teams, online choosing to scrutinising the bad and badder (sic) in ours.

Well yea, but we are 4th or 5th and we could be potentially fighting for 5th in the new season. I'm in no way against Moyes, but if we are saying we are targeting 5th for the new season if no new signings are made, then we might as well give up now.

 

[ItsEssexRob]

@Pogue

I find your 'cloud' argument to be rather facile.

Lets have a look at Chelsea and how many 'clouds' they had going into the season

Terry - Well past his best, close to being finished.
Luiz - Totally overrated player, a liability
A Cole - Another aging player on the downward spiral
Lampard - Yet another aging player on the downward spiral
César Azpilicueta - Is he really good enough for the top level?
Cahill - Another player with his top four credentials in question.
Mikel - s**t on a stick, pointless player
Torres - What a decline, a tragic shadow
Demba Ba - WTH?

That left

Hazard
Oscar

Two young player on a upwards curve.

Cech
Ivanovic
Mata
Ramires

Established and 'cloud' free players.

There were a few other squad non-entities (all clubs have them shock horror!!).

Mourinho made no marquee signings in the summer or winter window. He failed spectacularly to address the gaping hole in his squad also in the striking positions and some of the players were not even signed by him.

Yet still, despite his cloudy and inept squad he has them competing for the major honours that are but a distant dream for us. He has a vision, he has a plan and he can work well with what tools he has available to him.

Im confused I take it you are talking about the questions before the season started? because Cesar has been one of the outstanding players in the EPL this season, let alone good enough for top 4.

 

[Kag]

Well yea, but we are 4th or 5th and we could be potentially fighting for 5th in the new season. I'm in no way against Moyes, but if we are saying we are targeting 5th for the new season if no new signings are made, then we might as well give up now.

I don't know if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me?

A quality manager with creative coaching staff would have this team fighting for every single trophy. I'm absolutely sure of that. Thought it before, still think it now and will still think it when Moyes is sacked and these players are rewarded with staff worthy of their pedigree and skill. Sadly, there's more chance that a few of them will get sold.

 

[Kag]

Im confused I take it you are talking about the questions before the season started? because Cesar has been one of the outstanding players in the EPL this season, let alone good enough for top 4.

He said "going into the season." He's spot on, by the way. Jose has worked with any 'problems' and helped rectify them with answers. Moyes looked at ours, whinged and offered nothing.

 

[Rowem]

Second best squad in the league.

De Gea
Rafael Smalling Jones Evra
Carrick Fellaini
Januzaj Mata Kagawa
Rooney

...is the second best starting XI in the league

Wow, that's optimistic.

 

[fishfingers15]

I don't know if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me?

A quality manager with creative coaching staff would have this team fighting for every single trophy. I'm absolutely sure of that. Thought it before, still think it now and will still think it when Moyes is sacked and these players are rewarded with staff worthy of their pedigree and skill. Sadly, there's more chance that a few of them will get sold.

I was agreeing with you, but was a bit sarcastic to anyone who thinks we have the 5th best squad. You can't claim that Ferguson is a managerial genius for guiding the team to winning the Premiership and then go on and knock him for leaving an imbalanced squad to Moyes.

 

[Kag]

Wow, that's optimistic.

It isn't. It's based on the fact that it has previous excellence across the league for other clubs - Mata, Fellaini. Potential and raw quality - Rafael, Smalling, Jones and De Gea, all of whom have demonstrated quite often that they are very good at their jobs. Then there's the arguably most promising teenager in football. Then there's Rooney. I didn't even include the monster of a forward that Van Persie, a player so talented, but one that can't play with Rooney.

Those players, minus the best players at Everton and Chelsea, managed to win the league by 11 points last season and finished over twenty points ahead of a team that now lies a point off the top - Liverpool. Not optimistic at all. It's perfectly reasonable based on all statistical and visual evidence prior to the appointment of our resident clown.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It isn't. It's based on the fact that it has previous excellence across the league for other clubs - Mata, Fellaini. Potential and raw quality - Rafael, Smalling, Jones and De Gea, all of whom have demonstrated quite often that they are very good at their jobs. Then there's the arguably most promising teenager in football. Then there's Rooney. I didn't even include the monster of a forward that Van Persie, a player so talented, but one that can't play with Rooney.

Those players, minus the best players at Everton and Chelsea, managed to win the league by 11 points last season and finished over twenty points ahead of a team that now lies a point off the top - Liverpool. Not optimistic at all. It's perfectly reasonable based on all statistical and visual evidence prior to the appointment of our resident clown.

The fact that Liverpool are right up there with the (improved) squads of Chelsea and City this season goes to show that their position relative to us last season is completely irrelevant.

Painful to admit (and it really does fecking pain me) but Liverpool's best XI players have proven themselves to be comprehensively better than our best XI. And that's compared to other teams in the league, not just head to head against us. It's the strength in depth which lets them down and will hopefully be exposed when they're competing on two fronts next season.

People really need to stop banging on about the 11 point gap last season being a reflection of where we should be now. City, Chelsea and Liverpool are all much better teams now than they were last season. Even Arsenal have improved a good bit. Of all the traditional top 4/5 teams I'd say only Spurs have stayed at about the same level (probably disimproved slightly) If we could do some weird experiment where we replayed this season with Fergie still in charge I reckon we'd find it a much much harder slog than many would imagine, especially once you factor in the injuries to our best players (Carrick and RvP).

 

[soapythecat]

It isn't. It's based on the fact that it has previous excellence across the league for other clubs - Mata, Fellaini. Potential and raw quality - Rafael, Smalling, Jones and De Gea, all of whom have demonstrated quite often that they are very good at their jobs. Then there's the arguably most promising teenager in football. Then there's Rooney. I didn't even include the monster of a forward that Van Persie, a player so talented, but one that can't play with Rooney.

Those players, minus the best players at Everton and Chelsea, managed to win the league by 11 points last season and finished over twenty points ahead of a team that now lies a point off the top - Liverpool. Not optimistic at all. It's perfectly reasonable based on all statistical and visual evidence prior to the appointment of our resident clown.

For a start, we finished above City who were managed by a bloke who many said was under achieving. Been proven right this season as city playing to where most think their ability is.
Chelsea this season managed by a guy who is probably as good as they come. You could say they were under achieving last season.
You mention Liverpool. Finished the season strongly and many pundits/press etc all said if they could start well will be in with a shot of top 4.
Comparing City and Chelsea to us last season, is the same as comparing them to us this season. We are under achieving this season where they are where we think their ability is.
Evertons 2nd best player last season now plays for us but struggled with injury. Only now is he showing patches of what he can do.
Chelseas arguably best player is playing out of position as we already have a good player in his position.
This comparing us to others last season is not entirely valid in my eyes. We achieved whilst others under achieved. Others have stepped it up this season and are hitting their limits and we are under achieving for one reason and another.
I don't think we have the 2nd best squad in the league. I doubt you would find another football fan, who didn't support Man Utd, who shared your view (i'm sure there are a few United fans who would disagree too).

 

[Kag]

The fact that Liverpool are right up there with the (improved) squads of Chelsea and City this season goes to show that their position relative to us last season is completely irrelevant.

Painful to admit (and it really does fecking pain me) but Liverpool's best XI players have proven themselves to be comprehensively better than our best XI. And that's compared to other teams in the league, not just head to head against us. It's the strength in depth which lets them down and will hopefully be exposed when they're competing on two fronts next season.

People really need to stop banging on about the 11 point gap last season being a reflection of where we should be now. City, Chelsea and Liverpool are all much better teams now than they were last season. Even Arsenal have improved a good bit. Of all the traditional top 4/5 teams I'd say only Spurs have stayed at about the same level (probably disimproved slightly) If we could do some weird experiment where we replayed this season with Fergie still in charge I reckon we'd find it a much much harder slog than many would imagine, especially once you factor in the injuries to our best players (Carrick and RvP).

And under a manager and coaching staff that had the talent and imagination to manage an inherently attacking team like United then we would have improved, too. Had Smalling and Jones started weekly from the outset, and Sir Alex not interrupted their progress too, then they would have improved akin to Henderson and Allen at Liverpool. And speaking of those two, they aren't so much better, if they are at all, than somebody like Cleverley.

What Brendan Rodgers has done is come and instilled a belief in them that Moyes could only dream of doing. Instead, our man has just belitted some of our lot. As for their playing abilities, he's also introduced a philosophy, an attacking one, with clear and obvious systematic work done on the coaching field, that has allowed these once berated players an opportunity to flourish, improve and play an important part in a very, very good attacking unit. Henderson, in particular. Swap he and Cleverley and Henderson would look shite here, while Cleverley would look better over there.

They have been comprehensively better than our XI because they play like a team, whereas we don't. The manager is the guy that can make that happen. However, in no way is there more talent in that team, absolutely no chance. The only player I'd take from that lot and into our starting XI who I wouldn't want to improve upon in the Summer would be Suarez.

I don't think we have the 2nd best squad in the league. I doubt you would find another football fan, who didn't support Man Utd, who shared your view (i'm sure there are a few United fans who would disagree too).

Of course I won't. We currently lie in seventh and the entire country has been told all season our title-winning champions are infact a collection of retards. Alan Hansen says so. As far back as last Summer I was vehement in that this United squad wasn't too far away from something incredibly special. I thought we need Sir Alex to modernise our play a little, as well as sign one or two quality midfielders. Other than that I was excited. Given we've added Mata, Fellaini and Januzaj to those players, I remain confident. David Moyes has sapped that away from me and, more importantly, the players.

 

[Eugenius]

As I've said before, the cracks were showing last year and the squad perhaps wasn't as good as suggested by our league performance, and our rivals were considerably weaker.

However, it was obvious what we needed - a left back, a partner for Carrick and then a creative midfielder, whether another CM or winger/playmaker type. Get those signings right and our squad would easily be competitive with City's and Chelsea's. Maybe we wouldn't win the league but we would challenge and then lay the basis for the likes of Jones, Smalling, Rafael, De Gea and Welbeck to push on a level and then be in a position to challenge the elites of Europe again. I'm sure that's how Fergie would have seen it.

It's not as if Moyes didn't see what we needed but not getting Coentrao was a cock-up, spending almost £30m on Fellaini who has done nothing to solve our CM issues was another massive cock up; if anything he exacerbates the lack of urgency, drive and creativity in our midfield. And he got Mata, but you have to wonder whether he's got the pace to play in the wider positions or if he'll get to play behind the striker. Either way, Moyes has bought him without knowing how to get the best out of him. Ironically, Fergie used to get slaughtered for saying there was no value in the market when talking about players, he was fecking right by the looks of the Fellaini deal.

So he's basically spent £65m on players that don't fit into our team and hasn't made any changes to the way we play to try and get the best out of them. Look at Rodgers for example, everyone was wondering how he'd fit Sturridge and Suarez together but he's seamlessly switched to a diamond which is even getting good form out of cloggers like Henderson and Allen. You'd have to attribute blame to Moyes there.

And then with existing players, he's been unlucky with injuries and age but he's obviously not motivating players as he should. RVP does not look like he enjoys playing under Moyes.

 

[ItsEssexRob]

He said "going into the season." He's spot on, by the way. Jose has worked with any 'problems' and helped rectify them with answers. Moyes looked at ours, whinged and offered nothing.

Ok fair enough.

 

[Rowem]

It isn't. It's based on the fact that it has previous excellence across the league for other clubs - Mata, Fellaini. Potential and raw quality - Rafael, Smalling, Jones and De Gea, all of whom have demonstrated quite often that they are very good at their jobs. Then there's the arguably most promising teenager in football. Then there's Rooney. I didn't even include the monster of a forward that Van Persie, a player so talented, but one that can't play with Rooney.

Those players, minus the best players at Everton and Chelsea, managed to win the league by 11 points last season and finished over twenty points ahead of a team that now lies a point off the top - Liverpool. Not optimistic at all. It's perfectly reasonable based on all statistical and visual evidence prior to the appointment of our resident clown.

Januzaj, Fellaini and Evra are glaring weaknesses in that XI. You then have two CBs who can't have played more than half a dozen PL games together at CB, a player out of position, and a CM-partnership that doesn't compliment eachother at all.

Our squad has lots of depth and some players with amazing potential, but as a first XI we're clearly some way off having the 2nd best in the league.

 

[Kag]

Januzaj, Fellaini and Evra are glaring weaknesses in that XI. You then have two CBs who can't have played more than half a dozen PL games together at CB, a player out of position, and a CM-partnership that doesn't compliment eachother at all.

Our squad has lots of depth and some players with amazing potential, but as a first XI we're clearly some way off having the 2nd best in the league.

I quantified that by saying that game time, confidence and proper coaching will make a massive difference. See, what you've done is really scrutinise our team there, but not in a way you, or others, would scrutinise a rival side. Primarily, it's because we don't watch enough of these teams to go into as much detail as we would United. However, from the outside, I still see a Chelsea side that came into this season with a Terry who looked finished, a central defender as their best right back in Ivanovic, a Cahill who looked only a squad player, and a Luiz that has been dismissed as a liability by many. Their best midfield was a quite good Ramires and 35 year old former attacking midfielder in Lampard. This is all without mentioning the desperate need to replace Drogba. This team is now top of the league. Top. We lie in seventh.

Evra, Felliani/Carrick and Januzaj would need improving upon, and I completely agree that left back, central midfield and a speedy goalscoring wide player would be beneficial. However, I absolutely maintain that the team I put out could play some smashing football, as well as win compete and maybe win the title, if we had a better manager. If we had a Mourinho, perhaps.

 

[Rowem]

I quantified that by saying that game time, confidence and proper coaching will make a massive difference. See, what you've done is really scrutinise our team there, but not in a way you, or others, would scrutinise a rival side. Primarily, it's because we don't watch enough of these teams to go into as much detail as we would United. However, from the outside, I still see a Chelsea side that came into this season with a Terry who looked finished, a central defender as their best right back in Ivanovic, a Cahill who looked only a squad player, and a Luiz that has been dismissed as a liability by many. Their best midfield was a quite good Ramires and 35 year old former attacking midfielder in Lampard. This is all without mentioning the desperate need to replace Drogba. This team is now top of the league. Top. We lie in seventh.

Evra, Felliani/Carrick and Januzaj would need improving upon, and I completely agree that left back, central midfield and a speedy goalscoring wide player would be beneficial. However, I absolutely maintain that the team I put out could play some smashing football, as well as win compete and maybe win the title, if we had a better manager. If we had a Mourinho, perhaps.

Of course game time, confidence and coaching will make a difference but at this moment in time you can't just say that our first XI is the 2nd best in the league.

You conveniently forgot to include Matic for Chelsea, btw. So much for detailed and unbiased scrutiny.

 

[Amir]

So he's basically spent £65m on players that don't fit into our team and hasn't made any changes to the way we play to try and get the best out of them.

That's probably the worst thing and most damning regarding the future. This isn't about scouting or the academy or the players he was left with. He thought Fellaini was right for us, and he bought Mata when he clearly doesn't know exactly how to use him. And now we're supposed to give him tons more money to "rebuild" a squad that never needed rebuilding?

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

So how does everyone actually rank our squad then? Rather just going backwards and forwards about what or who is to blame. Blame-hungry animals that we are.

I'd say we have a lot of strength in depth compared to all the other sides, even compared to City. However I think our first XI is probably the 4th best in the league. With proper management we should be pushing our way towards the top. Moyes has therefore drastically underperformed in taking us to 7th, however there are also significant improvements that can be made.

What say you?

I'm not sure it matters. Some players seem to have decided to not play for Moyes from the get go. No different than children not liking their new step mother.

The squad has a serious problem in defense do to age and the CM problem has been there for years. We are a 4th place caliber team and less so with players who aren't pulling their weight. Throw in a rather inept manager and you've got seventh. But it's clearly a combination problem.

The most ridiculous thing on the Caf is people saying it's all Moyes fault or all the players fault. It's not one or the other.

 

[Kag]

Of course game time, confidence and coaching will make a difference but at this moment in time you can't just say that our first XI is the 2nd best in the league.

You conveniently forgot to include Matic for Chelsea, btw. So much for detailed and unbiased scrutiny.

I clearly said "Chelsea came into the season." My entire argument is based on the comparison of clubs when entering the season and what the managers have therefore done to combat any problematic issues as the season has gone on. Mourinho combated them with answers, as did Rodgers, leading to the rapid improvement of a number of players. Moyes met his problems with pessimism, amongst his many other faults so far. He isn't offering answers, apart from we're undergoing a "rebuild" even though apart from a couple of nice toys in midfield, it was never, ever needed.

 

[Rowem]

I clearly said "Chelsea came into the season." My entire argument is based on the comparison of clubs when entering the season and what the managers have therefore done to combat any problematic issues as the season has gone on. Mourinho combated them with answers, as did Rodgers, leading to the rapid improvement of a number of players. Moyes met his problems with pessimism, amongst his many other faults so far. He isn't offering answers, apart from we're undergoing a "rebuild" even though apart from a couple of nice toys in midfield, it was never, ever needed.

So why have you been including Mata for us?

Whatever. I even agree about Moyes. I just don't think our first XI is as good as the top sides, even allowing for the Moyes-factor.

 

[mattsville]

The fact that Liverpool are right up there with the (improved) squads of Chelsea and City this season goes to show that their position relative to us last season is completely irrelevant.

Painful to admit (and it really does fecking pain me) but Liverpool's best XI players have proven themselves to be comprehensively better than our best XI. And that's compared to other teams in the league, not just head to head against us. It's the strength in depth which lets them down and will hopefully be exposed when they're competing on two fronts next season.

People really need to stop banging on about the 11 point gap last season being a reflection of where we should be now. City, Chelsea and Liverpool are all much better teams now than they were last season. Even Arsenal have improved a good bit. Of all the traditional top 4/5 teams I'd say only Spurs have stayed at about the same level (probably disimproved slightly) If we could do some weird experiment where we replayed this season with Fergie still in charge I reckon we'd find it a much much harder slog than many would imagine, especially once you factor in the injuries to our best players (Carrick and RvP).

If SAF was still the manager with the same squad we would be in and around the top now, no question about it, everybody knows that. The same slog under SAF? We haven't finished outside the top 3 with various squads since the inception of the Premier League, unlikely to happen this season would you not think under the same manager? What has changed. The manager. The dipper players are not comprehensively better than our players. Who out of their team would get in ours, suarez on ability (would never have the pox though), coutinho has been impressive for the most part and I would take sturridge instead of Hernandez as he has more to his game, but he wouldn't be a starter. The rest of them to a man, no chance. They have been better managed with a clear plan and direction, they have one game a week granted, loaded their team with pacey attacking players and are going with the principle we will score more than we concede. In laymans terms, they are utilising the strengths of the players they currently have successfully. Moyes is not.

 

[limerickcitykid]

At the moment I'd probably take any of Gerrard, Henderson, Lucas or at a push Allen for our midfield too.

I'd rank our squad in around 3rd-5th. Arsenal, Liverpool and us are close imo. Our best starting XI has a weak midfield, players out of position and a front-line that doesn't seem to work together. Neither Chelsea or City have as many holes in their team for me. I think our squad depth is massively overstated on here too. We have no back-up RB, Buttner at LB, our starting CMs are hardly up to scratch let alone our starters and if you put Kagawa and Mata as starting wingers the back-up is Young, Valencia, Nani and Januzaj. Young and Valencia have been awful, Nani is inconsistent and always injured and Januzaj is great but he is still only a young lad. Our only depth is at CB and striker and then you can say we are lacking the top quality first choice CB. Arsenal might not have the depth at CB but in CM they have Ramsey, Wilshere, Arteta, Flamini and Ox as an option who I'd take over any of our CMs bar Carrick and with Carrick's season so far I'd take most of them over him too.

You then look at wingers / wide AMs and Arsenal's best are I'd say Cazorla and Walcott. You then have Podolski, Ox, Gnabry, Rosicky, and Wilshere. Again I'd have any of them over Valencia or Young. So Arsenal are short at CB but Kosc and Mertesacker are rarely absent and I rate them very highly and weak up front with only Giroud. They are strong though in CM and the AM/Winger spots and decent at full-back. Quite even to our strengths and weaknesses.

The other teams have all improved this season. Chelsea and City had problems with managers last season and have settled with new top managers that have brought their teams to the next level. The we beat them by 11 points argument is completely flawed as their is hundreds and thousands of factors that go into how many points you get in a season and your table position. Fergie lifted a good team to a great team and most top managers would have us around 3rd place maybe pushing for title as you can see now top 3 or 4 is all very close. Now you see Moyes who is doing a poor job taking a 3-5th squad to 7th.

 

[RedRover]

I have been hounded in another thread for saying that I thought the club would struggle to finish 4th at the start of the season. There will be nothing between 5th and 7th come end of May, so we are pretty much where I would have this squad.

People knock me for this, but I didn't see many, if at all any, people on here suggesting that this 100-200m required to rebuild to get competitive is nonsense.

If there is any good to come out of this season will be how much it has highlighted the need for major transformation. It won't happen in the summer, but the club must now be aware of how big a rebuild is needed.

A rubbish season but definitely exciting times ahead (if CEO pulls his finger out).

Agree with this for the most part.

For me the big issue is the number of key players on the turn and a few who probably feel that they will be moved on next summer.

It's tough for a new manager when a team is in transition. He has to try and get everyone pulling in the same direction - despite a number of those players knowing they will soon be replaced. It isn't going to make him popular nor make for a happy atmosphere. Big changes are coming and a few players are likely not willing to accept it.

He inherited a team in decline, although he probably should be doing better. He has found himself in the odd position of having to plan for this summer early this season because the summer was a shambles and January is difficult to do major business. He's not handled it well but it's a tough ask.

Midfield and defence need rebuilding for me. Some of that should have been addressed over the last couple of years.

 

[Danny1982]

Agree with this for the most part.

For me the big issue is the number of key players on the turn and a few who probably feel that they will be moved on next summer.

It's tough for a new manager when a team is in transition. He has to try and get everyone pulling in the same direction - despite a number of those players knowing they will soon be replaced. It isn't going to make him popular nor make for a happy atmosphere. Big changes are coming and a few players are likely not willing to accept it.

He inherited a team in decline, although he probably should be doing better. He has found himself in the odd position of having to plan for this summer early this season because the summer was a shambles and January is difficult to do major business. He's not handled it well but it's a tough ask.

Midfield and defence need rebuilding for me. Some of that should have been addressed over the last couple of years.

That's wrong. And that's not what SAF thought about the squad when he left it by the way. He was even talking about the prospects of winning 3 titles in a row.

Our team isn't a team in decline, and we've already added very good pieces to it since SAF left. A good manager will have us challenging for the title easily imo.

 

[Stack]

That's wrong. And that's not what SAF thought about the squad when he left it by the way. He was even talking about the prospects of winning 3 titles in a row.

Our team isn't a team in decline, and we've already added very good pieces to it since SAF left. A good manager will have us challenging for the title easily imo.

I think Fergie was about to have to go on a rebuild for a couple of seasons. Not a team in decline but not one capable of winning 3 in a row.

 

[Danny1982]

I think Fergie was about to have to go on a rebuild for a couple of seasons. Not a team in decline but not one capable of winning 3 in a row.

At least that was his target for this squad. That's what he thought of them, good, young, and won't gonna need much rebuilding to compete for another title (and another one after that).

When you listen at the tone he left with, and the reality we find ourselves in now, it's amazing that people are still putting the effort to try and get the two extremes closer to each other. They're not just "moving the posts", they are taking the whole goal to the other side of the field.

I bet even in SAF's worst nightmare about this squad he thought they'd still finish 3rd.

 

[Stack]

Ignoring all the drivel about if the squad was good enough or wasnt good enough to win titles. Ignoring all the waffling over if its an ageing squad or if its a squad needing a rebuild the bottom line for me has become the quality of our football and its just not been good enough. Little patches in games here and there where it looks like we can play a bit but then those have just been fleeting glimpses.
if we could just string together an entire half where we looked like an exciting team with menace I think people would have a bit of hope going forward. Trouble is if you ignore all the other stuff our football has just been awful.