Didn't Van Gaal say Carrick was a "trainer coach of a player?"
I'd appoint him before Giggs.
I'd appoint him before Giggs.
The Argument for Giggs as our Next Manager
- Thread starter Walrus
- Start date
- Status
Excellent post @Walrus. I think he still needs to go to another club and ply his trade there before returning to United. If it fails for him, it could set us back again a la Moyes. But I could be (and probably am) wrong and, like Pep and Enrique, he could be a huge hit.
Here's the thing... We don't know if Giggs would be a success. Just like we don't know if Ancelotti, Pep or Klopp would be.
The big difference is (and so I get this as an argument against Giggs) is that those named above have proven track records. But here's the thing:
Pep delivered at a team set up for him. OK he still had to make it work and by god he did but the players were there for him. When you have Messi, Iniesta and Xavi to name just 3 then your job must be a delight! He's done a good job at Bayern but I'm not sure their fans are completely sold? I mean he's won the league but let's face it that's not hard... And this is a team that won the treble the year he came in. City will no doubt move for him when they sack Pellegrini and I think with the players there he'd do a good job.
Klopp was a huge success at Dortmund. He managed to break up Bayern's dominace for a while... And he comes across as a really good guy who's very popular with fans. But it's been mentioned that his team played counter attacking football. So for a start how could he take over LVGs possession based team? I like Klopp and would be happy if he was our next manager but I have my doubts.
Ancelotti seems like the only one I named above who for a short while could take over and probably deliver? He's done it with a number of clubs... Though for some reason it wouldn't fill me with excitement.
Other options are Blanc but he's only done it at PSG who have unlimited resources in a fairly average league. Simeone who's worked wonders for Atletico but I just feel he demands so much from his players that he can only get the very best for a season or two. And then closer to home there is maybe Monk one day? Or Martinez though that option looks less attractive by the week.
So that really brings us back to Giggs. Who as its been said knows the club, understands the size of the club, has worked under 2 great managers while learning mistakes from Moyes. He is comfortable around the club having been there for years. There's just this question mark over his experience... What to do for the best? Send him out to gain that experience where he may not look great? But does that mean he wouldn't do a great job at united? Or just give him the chance, take the risk and hope it pays off.
The big difference is (and so I get this as an argument against Giggs) is that those named above have proven track records. But here's the thing:
Pep delivered at a team set up for him. OK he still had to make it work and by god he did but the players were there for him. When you have Messi, Iniesta and Xavi to name just 3 then your job must be a delight! He's done a good job at Bayern but I'm not sure their fans are completely sold? I mean he's won the league but let's face it that's not hard... And this is a team that won the treble the year he came in. City will no doubt move for him when they sack Pellegrini and I think with the players there he'd do a good job.
Klopp was a huge success at Dortmund. He managed to break up Bayern's dominace for a while... And he comes across as a really good guy who's very popular with fans. But it's been mentioned that his team played counter attacking football. So for a start how could he take over LVGs possession based team? I like Klopp and would be happy if he was our next manager but I have my doubts.
Ancelotti seems like the only one I named above who for a short while could take over and probably deliver? He's done it with a number of clubs... Though for some reason it wouldn't fill me with excitement.
Other options are Blanc but he's only done it at PSG who have unlimited resources in a fairly average league. Simeone who's worked wonders for Atletico but I just feel he demands so much from his players that he can only get the very best for a season or two. And then closer to home there is maybe Monk one day? Or Martinez though that option looks less attractive by the week.
So that really brings us back to Giggs. Who as its been said knows the club, understands the size of the club, has worked under 2 great managers while learning mistakes from Moyes. He is comfortable around the club having been there for years. There's just this question mark over his experience... What to do for the best? Send him out to gain that experience where he may not look great? But does that mean he wouldn't do a great job at united? Or just give him the chance, take the risk and hope it pays off.
Agreed. We certainly have no particular reason to assume he'd be any good at all. None of the Fergie fledglings have exactly been pulling up trees in the managerial world and having been a top player is absolutely no indication of anything; realistically Giggs is far more likely to be another Keane, Ince, Robson, Shearer, Barnes, Souness, Maradona etc etc than something exceptionally rare like the next Guardiola.
Because he is Ryan Giggs and we all love him.
I don't think anyone can come up with a convincing argument in his favor since he hasn't managed a club at any level, yet. He has been part of the club since his childhood and part of the set-up since Fergie left, though I don't know if they are enough qualifications for him to be given the job. Then, we as fans are looking from the outside and don't have enough knowledge about the qualities that Giggs would being to the table. May be the people in charge of making these decisions will see that potential in him and are comfortable in giving him the responsiblity.
I guess what I am trying to say is that, neither will I'll be clamouring for Giggs to get the job nor will I dismiss it completely. I think we have spend enough money to develop a quality squad, that I don't fear having an off year with Giggs will be the "end" of us as a top club.
I don't think anyone can come up with a convincing argument in his favor since he hasn't managed a club at any level, yet. He has been part of the club since his childhood and part of the set-up since Fergie left, though I don't know if they are enough qualifications for him to be given the job. Then, we as fans are looking from the outside and don't have enough knowledge about the qualities that Giggs would being to the table. May be the people in charge of making these decisions will see that potential in him and are comfortable in giving him the responsiblity.
I guess what I am trying to say is that, neither will I'll be clamouring for Giggs to get the job nor will I dismiss it completely. I think we have spend enough money to develop a quality squad, that I don't fear having an off year with Giggs will be the "end" of us as a top club.
Thanks Walrus. I always enjoy our interactions too.
It gives you a far better base to judge them by though (Sir Alex).
He's not even made an argument there. He just says it 'has to happen' or 'there is a growing sense' repeatedly.
If this happens, we deserve all the shit we undoubtedly will get, and it will set us back decades. He's nowhere near ready and needs to serve an apprenticeship at a smaller club before he can even begin to think about managing us. Not everyone is a Guardiola (and even he had a two to three year apprenticeship at Barca B and was blessed with a golden generation he had been familiar with during the said apprenticeship). He needs to follow the example of Tuchel and Klopp who built their way towards the top.
There is no real argument as to why Giggs should be the new manager in that article, beyond the romantic appeal of it. Walrus made a much more reasoned case.
Maybe the real reason to have him is that it is the only way we will ever stop debating whether we should do it or not.
Maybe the real reason to have him is that it is the only way we will ever stop debating whether we should do it or not.
I want Giggs as next manager 100%. Would be hard to see anybody disrespecting him. He would keep the traditions of the club. Would play attacking football. Would be a long-term manager should be be successful. Fergie recommended.
90% of the work is done on the training pitch. Most fans dont get this and think that its just like playing FM or FIFA, pick a formation, pick players to suit and away we go.....
We have no idea of what Giggs is like with running training, his brief stint of 4 games is too short a sample to make any sensible assumptions. 3 years under LVG as well as all that time under Fergie and his coaching staff is an apprenticeship that is exceptional.
Some apprentices become brilliant, some dont reach any notable heights.
The trouble with football and management is that there are so many variables and factors that have an impact on whether a manager is successful or not. The worst thing is that 99% of managers never win anything.
We have no idea of what Giggs is like with running training, his brief stint of 4 games is too short a sample to make any sensible assumptions. 3 years under LVG as well as all that time under Fergie and his coaching staff is an apprenticeship that is exceptional.
Some apprentices become brilliant, some dont reach any notable heights.
The trouble with football and management is that there are so many variables and factors that have an impact on whether a manager is successful or not. The worst thing is that 99% of managers never win anything.
The natural successor.
Hard to take the Paul Hayward article seriously when he puts forward Beckham as a potential assistant to Giggs. Reeks of jobs for the boys. A manager with no managerial credentials, Beckham with no coaching experience.
If Giggs is good enough then he should prove it by managing a smaller club before being considered for the biggest managing job in the world with no primary managerial experience.
Yeah, I stand by what I said in my OP and since then in the thread, but a lot of these articles are just tripe.
Its all very idealist. It's a massive job that requires you to not only be comfortable handling the pressure of expectation (which Giggs may very well be) but also to be a very good manager in order to compete for titles and keep us at the top table. Whetehr Giggs can do the latter is a total unkown.
The Beckham thing is daft. These lads were great players for the club and they'll be fondly remembered but we need to look to the future. I'd hate for us to be like Liverpool were in the 90's always looking backwards to the days of the "boot room" thinking that had any bearing on where they are now.
While you and i have a different opinion on Giggs being next United manager, the arguments you posed are better than Hayward's.
That's definitely how we should sign our next manager.
I'm now starting to think Mourinho can be poached from Chelsea.
"An external Hollywood appointment...". What is more hollywood than appointing a manager because if successful the story will be nice, there is nothing more Hollywood than that, except SAF becoming a sort of Benjamin Button.
The common sense would dictate the appointment of a young but already proven and successful coach.
The common sense would dictate the appointment of a young but already proven and successful coach.
Also why is it hard to see people disrespecting him? He doesn't exactly come across as a strong personality. It's hard to see players disrespecting Fergie, Big Sam, Mourinho, Simeone more
Unless he's learning something extra from LVG im afraid with Giggs we'll just default back to 4-4-2 with very little tactical direction. Giggs will try to recreate Fergie's magic but he's no Fergie.
Hear hear.
Why do people assume that? Considering the fact that Giggs used 4-2-3-1 in two of the four matches he managed.
Having said that there's no real argument for Giggsy to be appointed as our new manager(even though we all will love him to succeed) and I don't think there's no chance that Glazers will even employ him. Our contract with Adidas means that we'll lose 25m additionally to the CL revenue(if we miss out on CL) and for that reason I do think that we'll hire a top class manager after LvG is done.
Perhaps one of the biggest arguments against Giggs is the fact that we haven't won anything for two years in a row, and there's a fair chance we might not win anything this year either, judging by the bluntness of the attack, which unless addressed on a deeper level will inhibit us against the best teams in cup competitions. Three years is a very long time for a club of United's magnitude to win nothing of great significance, which is a bit worrisome to be honest, especially given the amount of money and resources we've hemorrhaged over the past couple of seasons, or thereabouts.
Ideally, the next manager should be someone who can come in, and start winning things right-away, someone who is experienced at the level and knows how to organize a club from a sporting standpoint, is tactically thorough and diverse in the transfer market. This is why someone like a Guardiola or even Ancelotti is an appealing option once Van Gaal is replaced. They have a proven track record of providing success almost instantaneously, albeit with superior squads. The thing I'm most afraid of is the club's aura and tradition of winning vaporizing completely following another gamble at the managerial spot. Once you get into that vicious cycle of taking 'almost there' as consolation and 'we go again', there's an ever-present danger of going down the Arsenal, or worse still Liverpool way.
Look, everyone can resonate with the appeal of Giggs being the next United manager, even the most cynical ones. Not so long ago, folks were camping for Keane or Solskjaer. And from a more pragmatic viewpoint, what if instead of a fairytale (as the backers are speculating - long time manager, continuation of Fergie's legacy), we witness a horror movie reminiscent of the previous manager's regime, rife with borderline incompetence. That is well within the realms of possibility - what if instead of Guardiola or Conte, he turns out to be our version of Souness and Pirlo and Seedorf, and just burns out completely. All the possible outcomes should be borne in mind, and the club should then make a calculated decision based on sound reasoning, rather than a sense of romance.
Obviously, none of us can prognosticate what might or might not happen, but there's a reason that the top clubs in Europe go around chasing the elite managers - the likes of Guardiola, Jose, Ancelotti among a select few. Sure, every once in a while an Enrique might emerge, but look at the squad at his disposal, and look at where he had to work before he got the chance at Barcelona - 3 years at Barcelona B followed by 3 years at Roma and Celta Vigo. As for the rest of the younger ones - Simeone, Klopp, Tuchel all paid their dues at relatively smaller clubs, built up their profiles, pushed said clubs beyond what was expected of them, and rightly got high profile jobs on merit. Handing it on a silver platter to an ex-legend who hasn't proven his credentials does seem a bit unwise.
Ideally, the next manager should be someone who can come in, and start winning things right-away, someone who is experienced at the level and knows how to organize a club from a sporting standpoint, is tactically thorough and diverse in the transfer market. This is why someone like a Guardiola or even Ancelotti is an appealing option once Van Gaal is replaced. They have a proven track record of providing success almost instantaneously, albeit with superior squads. The thing I'm most afraid of is the club's aura and tradition of winning vaporizing completely following another gamble at the managerial spot. Once you get into that vicious cycle of taking 'almost there' as consolation and 'we go again', there's an ever-present danger of going down the Arsenal, or worse still Liverpool way.
Look, everyone can resonate with the appeal of Giggs being the next United manager, even the most cynical ones. Not so long ago, folks were camping for Keane or Solskjaer. And from a more pragmatic viewpoint, what if instead of a fairytale (as the backers are speculating - long time manager, continuation of Fergie's legacy), we witness a horror movie reminiscent of the previous manager's regime, rife with borderline incompetence. That is well within the realms of possibility - what if instead of Guardiola or Conte, he turns out to be our version of Souness and Pirlo and Seedorf, and just burns out completely. All the possible outcomes should be borne in mind, and the club should then make a calculated decision based on sound reasoning, rather than a sense of romance.
Obviously, none of us can prognosticate what might or might not happen, but there's a reason that the top clubs in Europe go around chasing the elite managers - the likes of Guardiola, Jose, Ancelotti among a select few. Sure, every once in a while an Enrique might emerge, but look at the squad at his disposal, and look at where he had to work before he got the chance at Barcelona - 3 years at Barcelona B followed by 3 years at Roma and Celta Vigo. As for the rest of the younger ones - Simeone, Klopp, Tuchel all paid their dues at relatively smaller clubs, built up their profiles, pushed said clubs beyond what was expected of them, and rightly got high profile jobs on merit. Handing it on a silver platter to an ex-legend who hasn't proven his credentials does seem a bit unwise.
Yes worked with Moyes... i wil never understand that argument!
I wonder why it is that we always hear people wanting Giggs as manager but there are never any calls for Gary Neville. If we are going to select somebody which as far as I can see is based on the romantic idea of an ex SAF player doing a good job Neville seems to have a lot more character, backbone and comes across as more of a leader and more insightful.
Not that i'm saying it should happen but if that's the road we are going down, do we just choose Giggs because he stuck around the longest?
Not that i'm saying it should happen but if that's the road we are going down, do we just choose Giggs because he stuck around the longest?
It's a pretty simple argument to understand. Just because one David Moyes who was a decent manager but not fit for a top club failed, managers don't suddenly no longer have to prove themselves. In every profession you have to prove yourself to be worthy of a top job. It's very rare that you can just suddenly be ready for the hot seat after interning for awhile. Where you prove yourself is another matter. But using Moyes to refute something logical makes no sense at all.
Moyes is a great example of why a coach should prove himself, Moyes was at his level at Everton, he showed us that by "only" achieving and rarely overachieve.
I just don't see the logic of gifting the biggest job in club football to a candidate who has never managed a club. I know there are examples like Pep, who have fared well, but then again he inherited Messi, Xavi, Iniesta et al.
I don't see how going off to manage the likes of a Hull or even a Southampton would in any way prepare him to take over...totally different kettle of fish...
A team that is never going to challenge for a title, he'd never get the right experience...he'd end up doing a Steve Bruce and bouncing about the lower level teams, like Wigan, Hull, etc...and once that happens, the route to United is closed forever...look at Keano, Robson, Hughes, even Ole Solskjaer...all touted as potential future United managers, and now either no longer in management, or at shit clubs, and nowhere near the job, and never will be...
When Van Gaal retires, who will realistically be available? and I'm not talking about someone who will come for a few years, and then retire, or feck off to another club...I'm talking about the potential for a long, successful regime...
A team that is never going to challenge for a title, he'd never get the right experience...he'd end up doing a Steve Bruce and bouncing about the lower level teams, like Wigan, Hull, etc...and once that happens, the route to United is closed forever...look at Keano, Robson, Hughes, even Ole Solskjaer...all touted as potential future United managers, and now either no longer in management, or at shit clubs, and nowhere near the job, and never will be...
When Van Gaal retires, who will realistically be available? and I'm not talking about someone who will come for a few years, and then retire, or feck off to another club...I'm talking about the potential for a long, successful regime...
It's easier for Barcelona to take a gamble on a Guardiola or Luis Enrique for that matter because as managers come and go, the playing style will not go through a massive and exhaustive facelift with every manager changing the whole thing on their arrival. The style might be tweaked here and there, but no massive overhauls will take place. You won't go from Guardiola's style, to Klopp's style, to Simeone's style and then back to Guardiola's style.
Who knows. We don't know if the board and owners will put the desire for a long regime over a more short term option that would guarantee (as far as such a thing is possible) success. If Guardiola is available when LvG retires, I don't think there is any doubt that we would want him, even if he doesn't stay in one place for more than a handful of years.
See this is one thing I really don't understand with the disdain for lower tier management. People bring up clubs like Hull or Sunderland, but there's no reason for him to stick to the Premier League. David Moyes has ventured out, Phil Neville is a coach at Valencia. Go join a club in the Bundesliga, or Serie A, or even the Eredivisie. Take some time to learn about the footballing cultures in different leagues, learn new tactics and approaches to the game, mingle with coaches who employ a more continental approach. Join a club with European aspirations, and then guide them to titles, or atleast be competitive. Then when you have proven yourself at a good level, and you are a bit experienced, come back and rightfully take up the job. A lot of the best coaches through the last couple of decades or so have gone through that route - Hitzfeld, Ancelotti, Hiddink, Mourinho, Heyneckes, Fergie, Wenger managed Monaco and a Japanese League club for crying out loud. No managerial job is a dead end if you get the desired results, instead of pigeon holing yourself with Hull and the likes.
The reason Keane, Bruce, Robson didn't work out is because they were not good enough. I'm sorry, they're former greats of the club but that seems the fairest assessment looking at things from a removed perspective. If they were determined about the job, they would still be pursuing them, and trying to prove themselves as worthy candidates, if not in the Premier League then abroad. Where's that desire to become a top, top manager, the kind that United needs ?
As for who might replace Van Gaal, Guardiola's contract is up next season, Ancelotti is out of a job still, and Klopp is doing the whole sabbatical bit. Those are three good to great choices, and dare I say, all three are better managers than Louis in terms of what we need next season and beyond. Every manager comes with his own set of negatives, no appointment is 100% foolproof, but those three and especially the former two are about as good as it gets in European football, particularly when it comes to clubs the size of United, and by extension Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern; and previously Juventus and Milan.
Hello all, this is my first post in the mains.
I really like this thread. While I do want our next manager to be world class names like Joachim Loew, Guardiola or Klopp, I certainly wouldn't mind Gigss for reasons you've already excellently stated.
An important thing that is often overlooked by many fans is Giggs knows SAF football and the tactical setup. From open plays to set plays to counter attacks. He can set us up to play SAF football, there is no doubt about this. The proof is the games he managed after Moyes was sacked. In less than 2 weeks Giggs was able to make the team play SAF football again and we won 4-0 against Norwich. I was really impressed by that game.
But Giggs isn't perfect. His inexperience really showed in the next 2 games where we lost to Sunderland and drew with Southampton. It was apparent that his ability to select teams is not good enough. He didn't pick the right team for the 2 games, and we dropped points because of it. It was also apparent that his ability to motivate players is also very much inferior to SAF. After the loss to Sunderland, he spoke about how the players energy was low and their performance was flat, and he couldn't explain it.
Here is the interview after the game http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/27271303
That's just not good enough. He was the manager, and he was responsible for the level of performance of the team.
But I'm willing to give Giggs the benefit of the doubt. I hope he can learn quickly and improve his team selection and motivational skills. If he can do that he'll be a great manager.
But its not all rosy. There is one thing that makes me a lot less eager about Giggs being our manager, and that is his private life. What he did to his brother was absolutely lousy and his name will forever be black in many people's eyes. I don't want United name dragged through the mud because of it. Who knows, it might affect our transfer dealings, players might not want to come to Untied to play for someone like that. In that case Gary Neville would be a better candidate.
I really like this thread. While I do want our next manager to be world class names like Joachim Loew, Guardiola or Klopp, I certainly wouldn't mind Gigss for reasons you've already excellently stated.
An important thing that is often overlooked by many fans is Giggs knows SAF football and the tactical setup. From open plays to set plays to counter attacks. He can set us up to play SAF football, there is no doubt about this. The proof is the games he managed after Moyes was sacked. In less than 2 weeks Giggs was able to make the team play SAF football again and we won 4-0 against Norwich. I was really impressed by that game.
But Giggs isn't perfect. His inexperience really showed in the next 2 games where we lost to Sunderland and drew with Southampton. It was apparent that his ability to select teams is not good enough. He didn't pick the right team for the 2 games, and we dropped points because of it. It was also apparent that his ability to motivate players is also very much inferior to SAF. After the loss to Sunderland, he spoke about how the players energy was low and their performance was flat, and he couldn't explain it.
Here is the interview after the game http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/27271303
That's just not good enough. He was the manager, and he was responsible for the level of performance of the team.
But I'm willing to give Giggs the benefit of the doubt. I hope he can learn quickly and improve his team selection and motivational skills. If he can do that he'll be a great manager.
But its not all rosy. There is one thing that makes me a lot less eager about Giggs being our manager, and that is his private life. What he did to his brother was absolutely lousy and his name will forever be black in many people's eyes. I don't want United name dragged through the mud because of it. Who knows, it might affect our transfer dealings, players might not want to come to Untied to play for someone like that. In that case Gary Neville would be a better candidate.
Last edited:
Overachieving, the best managers are able to overachieve, Klopp, Garcia and Simeone for example showed their quality by overachieving and maintain their teams where they shouldn't. it's not an easy thing, it's not a short time thing.
this
Class of 92 to manage United by commitee. 
- Status