The Americas Draft

Re: quarter finals

We'll try out the new (or old) format: Results won't be visible before voting - and votes are final (no changing your mind). I'll add a standard phrase to the OPs, instructing voters to read the arguments properly before voting, etc.
Aye great. You can add them polls Chester?
Aye - it's probably what I would've aimed for myself. Go for Passarella rather than 'Dinho, to put it like that - and with a bit of luck you've got a more or less clear edge (that people can't ignore) in the latter stages.
Passarella has a clear edge on the remaining CB's in the pool. Personally I had him, Dinho, Garrincha and Ronaldo from the start. Obviously three of those bring something to the table that you can't replicate, while Dinho was kind of a personal favorite and choice.

Paz not being picked was also a bit of a surprise for me. There are many in his position to compete with, granted, but being from pool 2 would've been a nice acquisition.
 
Paz not being picked was also a bit of a surprise for me. There are many in his position to compete with, granted, but being from pool 2 would've been a nice acquisition.

Interesting. Where did you come across him? Cracking player, be it in his wingforward or support striker incarnations. I put our exit to Argentina in '86 down to our manager persisting in not playing him and leaving it all hanging on Enzo on a solo mission. He came on once we went down and it turned the game on its head, but it was a case of too little too late :mad:
 
To be fair Córdoba has the physical attributes you'd want to face Garrincha.
Am I the only one who doesn't rate him highly as a 'defender'?

He was a brilliant athlete, but he always got overrated due to his physicality. Sure it's great to be incredibly quick (he is probably the quickest CB I've seen), strong and a heavy marker but that's as far as his game went. Clever players simply knew that and got the better of him. Shevchenko roasted him time and again in Milan derbies. Against Garrincha the first thing you need to have is anticipation. You are playing against one of the most unpredictable players of all time, you absolutely cannot put a foot wrong against him and you need that temperament and quick thinking to constantly follow him. Sure it's handy to not let him get away once he's done with you over 90 minutes it will fail with ease. Most defenders who are great athletes tend to believe in that more than they should and constantly commit themselves into challenges carelessly relying on the physical ability. I just don't find that style very reliable, e.g. I've never rated Puyol as a 'top defender'.

Guess not the first time I've expressed this, for me brains over muscle in defending ANY day of the week. Period. If you can beat your opponent's planning in your head you have won right there. The best defenders are the ones who do the job without getting noticed at all. The best example of this is Sandro Nesta, against someone like Cannavaro. Cannavaro would make the highlights reel getting some amazing tackles and headers in, when Nesta will never be in a position where he has to make a last ditch do or die tackle to save the day. He cuts you off before you are a danger. And it is why for me the art of defending cannot be mastered further than Gaetano Scirea did. Or Franz Beckenbauer for that matter. Most of the top defenders are sweepers/intelligent ones who were always on top of their opponent, for this very reason. I don't think I'll ever appreciate defenders who lacked intelligence.
 
While ranking Córdoba a bit higher than that (he was competent enough for Inter and Colombia over many years), I don't disagree and don't think anyone will argue with the premise of brains over brawn. Obviously and without wanting to eviscerate EAP's game plan before his match starts, what I didn't say there was as relevant as what I did. Again the pool has limited options to effectively resist the great man, Córdoba probably sits around the middle of those and at least can boast a dynamism and acceleration string to his bow.
 
Interesting. Where did you come across him? Cracking player, be it in his wingforward or support striker incarnations. I put our exit to Argentina in '86 down to our manager persisting in not playing him and leaving it all hanging on Enzo on a solo mission. He came on once we went down and it turned the game on its head, but it was a case of too little too late :mad:

I first came across him from old Copa highlights in 1989. You guys had an exciting team back then - Sosa, Enzo, Paz, etc. He had a great left foot and cracking set piece taker. His career in Europe didn't work out but was pretty enjoyable to watch.
 
Got Tuppet's - waiting for Patzzo.

No rush, as I won't start it until 3-ish or thereabouts at the earliest.
 
Starting it very shortly - new format an' all.

Still not 100% sure what happens when the poll closes - we'll just have to see about that - but I'm fairly sure the results should become visible after the match.
 
One was my grandfather, who was in the Uruguayan FA. The other was a journalist that, still a student, cobbled together what is probably the best archive on the 1930 World Cup. I think they both missed 1934 (it was a full boycott after the Italians boycotted the one in Montevideo), but the journo went to all the World Cups from '38 until '86 (I think, don't think he made 1990). My grandad went to 30-50-54-62-66-70, 50-54 as FA, the others out of his own pocket (probably had some perks and good contacts for tickets, etc).

Cheers! My grandpa was also one who got me into watching World Cups in '82 and appreciating the older players and nostalgia. A great memory was attending a World Cup match with him. I would love to talk with old school journos over a few whiskeys.
 


DOMINGOS

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With talk of centre backs,, the best centre defender left in the tournament should be highlighted here. He won the Uruguayan, Brazilian and Argentinian legaues between ‘32-35 and at the 1945 South American Championships he was still good enough to be voted Player of the Tournament. Here is a brief profile from Roger Kittleson.

1 Uruguay Championship (1933) National .

1 Campeonato Carioca (1934) Vasco .

1 Argentine Championship (1935) Boca Juniors .

3 Championships Carioca (1939, 1942 and 1943) Flamengo

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Background


“Domingos grew up in a large family in Bangu, where he followed his brothers into the factory and, eventually, into soccer. He played from an early age on the street that ran next to the church and, by happy coincidence, continued past the Bangu soccer field. Because the factory team was literally the only club in town, it took a while for Domingos to make it onto the first squad. His brother Luiz Antônio had been revered as a skilled and disciplined player— their father later said that Domingos was “small coffee” (café pequeno, not much) compared to Luiz Antônio— and in 1929, when the full team needed a replacement for an injured defender, he recommended Domingos.

The teenager had been a center midfielder on the junior squad, a position he liked because it gave him a full view of the field. He brought that vision— and what he had learned from using it— to defense.”


Playing Style



“Domingos da Guia was a central defender, a beque, but one who displayed more intelligence and grace than force when shutting down opponents. Indeed, observers often commented on how “serene” he looked. He watched the patterns of a match develop, stepping in to intercept a pass or tackle an attacker at precisely timed moments. This high-risk style left spectators anxious, uncertain if he would manage to get a foot in just when he needed to; he seemed to play “in slow motion,” while all around him whirled in a frenzy. Domingos, though, remained calm even when an adversary got past him; he tracked back and recovered the ball, as Zizinho recalled. His command of the game made him a star, but the structures of soccer set up barriers even to so impressive a player.” - Kittleson, Country of Football

further:

https://imortaisdofutebol.com/2013/04/25/craque-imortal-domingos-da-guia/
 
Got onenil's WU - will start the match as soon as the Tuppet-Patzzo match is over. We can't have 3 running at the same time.
 
Look at what I found searching for that old All-time All-stars game:

So, while you guys wait, I'll do a bit of legwork for @Stobzilla as I doubt he can read Spanish at all.

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Lorenzo Fernández, aka "El Patrón de la Cancha" (The Master of the Pitch) or, for anyone in Uruguay, Lorenzo. As with Obdulio, nobody will ask "Lorenzo Who?" or "Which Lorenzo?", to this day Lorenzo is Lorenzo Fernández, any other Lorenzo needs a surname. The Master of the Pitch isn't just a cool nickname, from 1930-1935 the Centenario Stadium, the largest in the world at the time, was referred to as "Lorenzo's Digs" for consistency.

A dockworker (longshoreman) by trade, he was strong and tough as nails even by the usual centre-half standards of those days. The Uruguayan team's masseusse once commented that giving him a massage was like trying to massage a lampost. Even after becoming an Olympic and World Champion he carried on working in the docks until 1932, when the professional era started.

Over the course of eight years, he won 5 Uruguayan titles with Peñarol, against a Nacional which actually had more key players in the NT but, cruciallly, not what was really called the "Iron Curtain": Peñarol's Silva-Fernández-Gestido midfield, with Andrade replacing Silva for the NT. He also won a Copa América and 4 out of 6 Lipton/Newton Cups (an yearly event with Uruguay and Argentina facing each other). Both him and Uruguay would have probably won more had the Argies not thrown their toys out of the pram after losing in 1930, deciding to pass on continental tournos until that generation was gone (1930-1935 :().

An indefatigable and courageous centre-half, Lorenzo also had a knack for scoring important goals, including the first one Peñarol scored in the professional era against their eternal rivals Nacional. With a key forward injured, he was once switched to inside left for a Copa América game and bagged a hat-trick. But it wasn't his goals but his competitiveness and sheer will to win which set him apart. He simply couldn't lose, at anything.

In the days before the World Cup, a bunch of players decided to have a game of volleyball with the loser paying for the afternoon biscuits for everyone. Lorenzo's teammates, Cea and Anselmo, decided to have a laugh and agreed they would throw the game. They just stood there, arms raised, going through the motions but not being much use. Lorenzo didn't give up, he was all over the place, ranting and raving at his partners who in turn kept commenting on what a poor game he was having. Once the game was inevitably lost, Lorenzo paid his dues, walked into his room at the training camp, packed his bags and left. At the door he came across the President of the Uruguayan FA, who asked him where he was going: "I'm going home. These guys can't even win a game of volleyball for the biscuits, no chance they can win a World Cup". He ranted on for half an hour with Mr. Narancio feeling he had been transported to a parallel universe of irrational behaviour, then run out of steam and Mr. Narancio managed to talk him back into the camp.

Another time in 1935, prior to the Copa America in Perú the players went to the dog races. A local tipster approached him and talked him into a bet, which Lorenzo won. Thrifty as he was, he banked half his winnings every turn and bet the other half, so he was well in the money after the tips proving good seven times in a row. It still didn't stop him chasing the tipster down the stand, over the fence, and around the racecourse, after the eighth tip went south.

Like Obdulio, he had a major influence in the dressing room. At half-time during the Final, with the scoreline 1-2 to the Argies, Lorenzo tells the players "If we lose this I'm going to kill each and every one of you", to which Nasazzi added "He kills you, and I bury you". Pedro Cea would later say he really would have been capable of doing it. Four years later the Italians would receive a similar threat, not from Fernández obviously, or Monti, but from Il Duce himself.

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A familiar trait/pattern with such players

Again, like Obdulio (who organised the first player strike), Lorenzo was quite vocal about the rights of his fellow professionals. In an episode which very much reminds me of Keane's final days with us, he took on the Peñarol Board after they didn't pay their wages for a couple of months. Peñarol had lost the league in 1934 and there was talk of the end of an era with many players on their last legs. Lorenzo was at the tail end of his career, 35 and making up for it with his sheer bloody-mindedness. He took on the Peñarol Board publicly, with the support of players and the fans who idolised him, in a tirade not too different to Keane's reference to prawn sandwich brigades and people who know nothing about footballl interfering with it.

A newspaper owned by the deposed previous Peñarol President latched onto it and kept adding fuel to the fire and a General Assembly was called. A few weeks prior the Peñarol Board paid up the wages, so when the Assembly came the players weren't that bothered any more but Lorenzo tore into each and every one of the Board members. Finding no backing from his fellow professionals, he tore into them as well, callling them spineless and saying it was no wonder they had lost the title...

It was so shocking that no one was surprised when he got suspended indefinitely without pay. The opposition media carried on with their political agenda and kept putting pressure on the Board calling for another Assembly for the club members to decide who stayed: the Board or Fernández. In the meantime, a crucial event: Peñarol started winning and regained the top of the table, became champions by the time the Assembly came... and fans being a fickle bunch they supported the Board, who sacked Lorenzo the next day.

It's interesting that all the way back in the 30s, the post mortem of the case (written by my grandad, a Nacional fan so quite happy to stick it in :lol:) was: "Football players... We build them up to be superhumans above us mere mortals, it gets to their head, and they forget how vulnerable they are to the fickle nature of fans and the greater political nous of their masters. Here lies Lorenzo Fernández, his reputation in tatters for displaying the same pig-headedness that always served him so well in a different arena". Some things never change.

Seems my memory was failing me the other day, I would have sworn he got the Board kicked out and then they got back in and kicked him out.
 
Brief Player Profiles (Starting XI only):

Claudio Bravo: not much introduction needed for the two-time Copa America winner. His calmness and skill on the ball is what makes him stand out, but his reflexes, positioning, and anticipation make him tough to score against. As proof of his world class ability, he was in the La Liga team of the season in his first season in Barcelona, winning the treble, and getting the Ricardo Zamora trophy for the lowest goals/game ratio (helped by the fact that he didn't concede a single goal in the first 17 La Liga matches).

Nelinho: Forever known as the man who scored THAT goal against Zoff and Italy, Nelinho is one of many Brazilian right backs who are dangerous going forward. Regardless of whether it's a cross or shot, Nelinho's kicks possess lots of bend and curve, making him a dangerous weapon going forward and a set piece threat. He also has the energy levels to go back and forth for 90 minutes and keep the opposing winger on his toes for the whole match on both ends of the pitch.

Luis Pereira: Nicknamed "Chevrolet" for his finesse on the ball and his forward strides with it (also perhaps because he was a machinist who worked in General Motors), Luis Pereira is one of the best defenders Brazil ever had. Having been unfairly made the scapegoat of the 1974 World Cup, Luis Pereira never played in another World Cup, but he continued to have success on the pitch, most notably getting the La Liga title with Atletico Madrid. On top of that, he also won the Copa del Rey in Spain as well as 3 Brazilian championships with Palmeiras. He's not one to dive into challenges wildly and make fouls, and his reading of the game, astute positioning, strong heading, and strong tackling make him tough to get past, and his composure at the back is perfect for settling nerves and building up confidence, particularly when trying to shift the momentum of the match.


Carlos Gamarra: One of the most respected South American defenders around, Gamarra gained prominence after his heroic displays at the 1998 World Cup led him to the FIFA World Cup Team of the Tournament. His positioning and anticipation made him tough to get past, and he was so clean in his defending that he did not concede a single foul in the 1998 and 2002 World Cup. With him in the team, Paraguay were almost impassable, and they probably could have been more successful if they possessed more attacking talent in their team.

Silvio Marzolini: One of the best, if not the best, left backs ever from South America, Silvio Marzolini gained fame for his performances with Boca Juniors and in the World Cup. He was first and foremost a defender as a left back, but his refined skill on the ball allowed him to join attacks as well to good effect (he times his runs to great effect and never rushed forward too soon). Naturally, however, he preferred to stay back and build attacks from the back. Defensively, he was a great man marker, and if he was ever beaten, he would always recover his position and challenge the opposing ball holder with his long legs. His impressive performances in the 1960's led Boca Juniors to 5 Argentine titles and led him to the 1966 World Cup Team of the Tournament, and the FIFA World XI in a match against Brazil in 1968.

Nestor Goncalves: When Obdulio Varela retired from football, both Penarol and Uruguay did not have to wait long before finding the perfect replacement for him in Nestor Goncalves. He was pretty much Obdulio Varela on the pitch: he was a strong leader who kept his side motivated and determined to win, he was a solid defensive midfielder who covered lots of the pitch and made it tough for the opposition to get past him, and he was a capable passer of the ball as well, more than able to play it out from the back and put attacking players through on goal. With him in the side, Penarol became one of the toughest teams to play against, and he had constant success in the 1960's, winning 3 Copa Libertadores, 2 Intercontinental Cups (beating Benfica and Real Madrid), and 7 Uruguayan Championships.

Didi: Most famous as one of the best midfield playmakers of all time, Didi was more than just a mere deep-lying playmaker. Having played in a midfield 2 for Brazil and Real Madrid, he possessed amazing energy levels that allowed him to go from box to box for the whole match. His high amounts of stamina also made him tough to contain as he'd drift around constantly in order to get on the ball and dictate the game. He is also famous for his folha seca ("dry leaf") kicking technique, bamboozling keepers and allowing him to have a respectable goalscoring record. Defensively, he relied on his positioning and reading of the game, though that did not stop him from tackling opponents and winning the ball from them.

Alcides Ghiggia: He's one of the best, if not the best, right winger Uruguay ever produced. He was a danger from the right wing whenever he played, whether it was for Uruguay, Penarol, Roma, or AC Milan. His small stature gave him great balance and allowed him to twist opposition defenders with his quick turns, close control and dribbling, and speed. An old-school winger, his crossing is quite varied and accurate, making him the perfect supplier for goalscorers like Sivori and Sanchez. Not only that, but his finishing is quite good as well, being most known for blasting shots to the keeper's near post (see his goal for the 1950 World Cup against Brazil). His low goalscoring tally has more to do with his creative nature as a winger, but whenever he would cut inside, he was always a goal threat.

Mario Zagallo: Famous for winning the 1970 World Cup as the manager, Mario Zagallo was also a great left winger in his day, winning 2 consecutive World Cups with Brazil. His tactical nous and footballing intelligence made him a great foil for the more cavalier players on the pitch, and he allowed the Brazil team be as dangerous as they were going forward with his intelligent positioning and movement from the left combined with his defensive graft. His intelligent runs pulled the opposition team out of shape, created spaces for the main danger men, and allowed him to be a goal threat as well.

Omar Sivori: The man nicknamed "El Cabezon" for his cocky nature, he probably warranted the arrogance given his magical ball skills and eye-catching performances. To go with his arrogance is his bravery, best noted by the fact that he put his socks down to his ankles whenever played football (at a time when challenges were more aggressive, this really was a brave move). However, when both his arrogance and bravery get put together, you get a player who was capable of pulling something out of nothing whenever he played. His nutmegs wooed crowds wherever he went, his dribbling dazzled both his teammates and the opposition, and his finishing made him a major goalscoring threat from all angles and distances. No wonder he was referred as the Maradona of the 1960's.


Hugo Sanchez: He's easily the best player Mexico ever had and one of the best #9's ever in football. His goalscoring record speaks for itself: 82 in 152 for Atletico Madrid, 208 in 282 for Real Madrid, and 28 in 59 for Mexico. It's not like he was just a pure poacher as well: his gift of acrobatics (he was an up-and-coming gymnast in his school days) and constant practice on the pitch made him an aerial threat as well as famous for his bicycle kicks. In his career, he won 5 Pichichis, 2 Don Balon Awards (best foreign La Liga player), and the European Golden Boot for the 1989/90 season. If that doesn't prove his goalscoring prowess and ability, then watch this goalscoring compilation:
 
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Got our write up ready to go so just let me know who to send it to and we can get started...
 
I haven't done any player profiles, I guess I probably should. Was thinking I'd do it in the game thread instead. Spoilered, obviously.
 
I haven't done any player profiles, I guess I probably should.
You don't need to cover every single player in your starting XI/squad, though. I just did that as it became a habit for me. The well-known players in your team don't really need much of an introduction anyways.

The players that you need to cover, however, are the ones who are not so well known, like what Tuppet did with Scarone. If you make good player profiles for the unknown players, they will become better appreciated and possibly used more often in future drafts.
 
You don't need to cover every single player in your starting XI/squad, though. I just did that as it became a habit for me. The well-known players in your team don't really need much of an introduction anyways.

The players that you need to cover, however, are the ones who are not so well known, like what Tuppet did with Scarone. If you make good player profiles for the unknown players, they will become better appreciated and possibly used more often in future drafts.
Ah OK. Yeah, this is my first time playing, not really up to speed with all the ins and outs of protocol.
 
What's this? Putting together player profiles is where the fun is!

Drafting > Teamsheets > Player profiles > Gamethreads
Well, of course it's lots of fun. I enjoy it myself, especially when I get to watch historical match footage and great players play against each other.

I only mentioned that as Goodman doesn't have that much time in putting them together. If he had more time, for sure, he can go ahead.
 
The drafting is fun , still would love to take it a step further and do a Skype call with 2/3 hours to pick all your players. Would be a good laugh too.
 
Hugo Sanchez is one of my favourite players. A truly great 9. His goalscoring record at Real was immense. Maybe I shouldn't be bigging up my opponent though :lol:
 
The drafting is fun , still would love to take it a step further and do a Skype call with 2/3 hours to pick all your players. Would be a good laugh too.
Yes, for sure! We need to do that at some point. The time zones could become a potential issue, but if we negotiate the time properly, it should be pretty good.