The Americas Draft

antohan said:
:lol: @Pat_Mustard is like a kid in a candy shop with his Pool 1 players
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:D Couldn't resist. I've got the options now to field something close to the attack I wanted from the start, so whether I get pummelled by the voters next match or find myself competely unable to upgrade for the final, I've indulged the muppet within. And that's all that matters really :)
 
Pat_Mustard said:
:D... the attack I wanted from the start... And that's all that matters really :)
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Absolutely. The fun is in setting out to accomplish a certain side and executing towards that, not in picking whatever is best and end up with a winning side you have no real love for.

e.g. I'm sure you really enjoyed your British and Irish draft side, even when you knew that sticking to that homage wasn't going to win it for you.
 
Same here. From the offset I picked Passarella and achieved precisely the 3-6-1 setup that I wanted. Delgado was probably the only one that I really wanted and couldn't get. Was incredibly delighted in the end with all the alternatives I had at my disposal.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
:D Couldn't resist. I've got the options now to field something close to the attack I wanted from the start, so whether I get pummelled by the voters next match or find myself competely unable to upgrade for the final, I've indulged the muppet within. And that's all that matters really :)
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I can understand that pick. Love Tostao :)

Draw then? @Chesterlestreet
 
Semifinal 1:

Skizzo/Pat vs Enigma/Joga

Semifinal 2:

oneniltothearsenal vs Maz/Mar/R

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Agree on dates between yourselves, as per usual.
 
Aldo said:
Same here. From the offset I picked Passarella and achieved precisely the 3-6-1 setup that I wanted. Delgado was probably the only one that I really wanted and couldn't get. Was incredibly delighted in the end with all the alternatives I had at my disposal.
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I know I always complain about Passarella next to an attacking LB, but I wasn't overly convinced by the 5-man defence. With Mascherano there as well I think 4 would have been enough and you could still have Passarella charging forward if the Little Boss minded the space he left behind.

It was a superb defence, don't get me wrong, but I don't think this draft called for five at the back.

BTW, didn't want to derail the game the other day discussing Gómez-Enzo-Leonidas combinations. From what I understood you wanted Gómez behind those two with either peeling wide, something like the one on top below. An alternative is those two deeper and Gomez upfront, which I think would be a more accurate depiction of the areas they influence most. But personally I'd go with the middle option with Enzo deep and the other two upfront, while Gómez was creative in the final third, he wouldn't go deep and start moves from his own half the way Enzo did and that's something that you would absolutely need with your five at the back.

Aldo-trio-formation-tactics.png

Aldo-trio-formation-tactics.png

It's just circles and arrows though, the important thing was getting across what you wanted from each.
 
antohan said:
I know I always complain about Passarella next to an attacking LB, but I wasn't overly convinced by the 5-man defence. With Mascherano there as well I think 4 would have been enough and you could still have Passarella charging forward if the Little Boss minded the space he left behind.
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For me that setup provided full freedom to all of the following : Passarella, Carlos, Arce, Di Maria and Mascherano in their respective duties and would have brought the best out of them given their abilities. Of course it needed a lot of explanation possibly graphical to elaborate on how different phases would operate and that of course wasn't possible to do given my absence during the game. That left side of Carlos, Di Maria and Enzo was mouth watering and I was happy to get it together in the end.

As for Gomez I did pick him as the last pick to have a few options but as I said I was dead set on trying my primary setup and in the end going by your posts I was completely off the mark with Gomez's abilities so it's a good thing I didn't play him as it would have been a calamity. Had an alternative been considered Salas was ahead of Gomez in the pecking order, specially as he brought something unique to the pitch compared to the rest of my attacking unit.
 
Aldo said:
For me that setup provided full freedom to all of the following : Passarella, Carlos, Arce, Di Maria and Mascherano in their respective duties and would have brought the best out of them given their abilities. Of course it needed a lot of explanation possibly graphical to elaborate on how different phases would operate and that of course wasn't possible to do given my absence during the game. That left side of Carlos, Di Maria and Enzo was mouth watering and I was happy to get it together in the end.

As for Gomez I did pick him as the last pick to have a few options but as I said I was dead set on trying my primary setup and in the end going by your posts I was completely off the mark with Gomez's abilities so it's a good thing I didn't play him as it would have been a calamity. Had an alternative been considered Salas was ahead of Gomez in the pecking order, specially as he brought something unique to the pitch compared to the rest of my attacking unit.
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Indeed, Salas would have worked great with Enzo, much like Crespo really. In fact, I think Salas was Crespo's replacement at River and did actually work really well with Enzo IRL (or it's the Alzheimer).

I agree it brought the best out of those players, it looked very impressive. My point was in an Americas draft I wouldn't set out to get the best out of a bunch of defensive players. Mind you, if you had the time to make things click further up the pitch it would have been a platform the rest would die for. I thought that was the plan, not just to get the best out of those specific players.

In any case, opinions, everyone has one.
 
Reflecting on the format, it's interesting that, despite the effort to remove the marquee players, the semi-finals consist of 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 9th in the snake picking order (with 4th a penalty shoot-out away from it). That's purely a comment on the format rather than an underplaying of the drafting and management of the final four, who have all obviously done rather well. Not that is really a criticism of the format as such because it's been consummately run with plenty of entertaining fare and closely contested matches. More an observation than anything else.
 
antohan said:
But that's the point right there: you can make your own reinforcement luck by drafting different.

Take the Reality draft, there was a round where EAP handed us a supposedly great midfielder and while others got the very best midfielders in the draft I wound up with Gerrard. What did I do? Desperately go out and pick a second tier #10? Nope, I just picked Gotze late on and rode my luck knowing come reinforcements nobody would need a #10 and there would be plenty to pick... so I ended up picking Nedved AND Baggio because everyone else was busy upgrading their leftback and whatnot :lol:
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It depends really, because with 16 teams from the start you need some luck landing some key targets and build around that. Especially in this draft some positions are really hard to come up with depth. For example having a quality playmaker from deep that can run the game - you have Didi, Falcao, Veron and Valderrama, apart from that it's different kettle of fish or more of a #10 or attacking midfielders. RW and LB combo is also limited to quality so it really depends on who the managers prioritize.

I remember that reality draft, you got screwed by almost any DoF that was distributed. :lol: Part of the draft of course.

Gio said:
Reflecting on the format, it's interesting that, despite the effort to remove the marquee players, the semi-finals consist of 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 9th in the snake picking order (with 4th a penalty shoot-out away from it). That's purely a comment on the format rather than an underplaying of the drafting and management of the final four, who have all obviously done rather well. Not that is really a criticism of the format as such because it's been consummately run with plenty of entertaining fare and closely contested matches. More an observation than anything else.
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It's interesting indeed, however a lot of teams were eliminated after tight affairs like Aldo's Tuppet, while Boris and Mciahel Goodman reached the quarters, being 13/14th in the snake order. Jayvin and Tuppet's game in the first round was also a great turnaround ending 7-6 for Tuppet. Probably more conisidental than anything :)
 
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antohan said:
My point was in an Americas draft I wouldn't set out to get the best out of a bunch of defensive players.
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Perhaps, though the beauty of getting the best out of those 'defenders' is that in their element they make telling differences to the offensive phase and it just gives the team such a beautiful offensive undertone that the opposition would have to cope with on top of the actual offensive attackers. Like having Facchetti running up and down on the left for you, something incredibly valuable. Of course it is easier to sell first wave of attack than second or third ones but selling this team wasn't really my motive here. Given the fact that I lost on penalties without posting a single argument does show that it impressed everyone quite well.
 
Gio said:
Reflecting on the format, it's interesting that, despite the effort to remove the marquee players, the semi-finals consist of 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 9th in the snake picking order (with 4th a penalty shoot-out away from it). That's purely a comment on the format rather than an underplaying of the drafting and management of the final four, who have all obviously done rather well. Not that is really a criticism of the format as such because it's been consummately run with plenty of entertaining fare and closely contested matches. More an observation than anything else.
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You could make an argument that both Ronaldo and Garrincha should have been blocked as well, sure. The question is where does it all end.

I think we should also give credit where it is due, Enigma/Joga's side is very well built and I wouldn't be surprised if they were still here with, say, Ghiggia instead of Garrincha. Other than Kempes, 9 out of their first 10 picks started in the quarters and other than Ancheta they could all easily start in a final.

How often have we seen people getting the benefit of getting a GOAT early on and then making a complete pig's ear of it?

Then you have OneNil not exactly getting maximum value from his picks in terms of individual quality but putting together a side that looked greater than the sum of parts (a rarity).

I'd argue that bar Pat/Skizzo clearly jamming their way through the first round 100% on the back of having Fatso the 1-2-3 lineup is pure coincidence.
 
Aldo said:
Perhaps, though the beauty of getting the best out of those 'defenders' is that in their element they make telling differences to the offensive phase and it just gives the team such a beautiful offensive undertone that the opposition would have to cope with on top of the actual offensive attackers. Like having Facchetti running up and down on the left for you, something incredibly valuable. Of course it is easier to sell first wave of attack than second or third ones but selling this team wasn't really my motive here. Given the fact that I lost on penalties without posting a single argument does show that it impressed everyone quite well.
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:lol: WTF? Why?
 
Skizzo said:
Stop, stop, you're flattering us :p
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You've got stronger, but Physio should have won that game. It's no dig or shame, he drafted better overall despite not being first, which was the point being discussed.
 
Aldo said:
Perhaps, though the beauty of getting the best out of those 'defenders' is that in their element they make telling differences to the offensive phase and it just gives the team such a beautiful offensive undertone that the opposition would have to cope with on top of the actual offensive attackers. Like having Facchetti running up and down on the left for you, something incredibly valuable. Of course it is easier to sell first wave of attack than second or third ones but selling this team wasn't really my motive here. Given the fact that I lost on penalties without posting a single argument does show that it impressed everyone quite well.
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I remember trying to build a side that would just overcrowd opponent's box at some points with a great crossers in the side. Passarella was one of the defenders, Enrique was one of the midfielders etc. Had Ibrahim instead of Erico because of the unlucky criteria

My only deserved 1st round exit :lol:

Although, looking back, I would've voted for you here, I chickened out iirc. Sorry!


Edit - I hate my phone. Ibrahim, ffs
 
antohan said:
You've got stronger, but Physio should have won that game. It's no dig or shame, he drafted better overall despite not being first, which was the point being discussed.
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Ugh, I just realized I got sidetracked trying to verify that Junior award that I actually forgot to vote for Physio, I had meant to vote for him :(

I remembered that Junior played well in Italy but I didn't think he was player of the season level in Serie A in that era.
 
harms said:
I remember trying to build a side that would just overcrowd opponent's box at some points with a great crossers in the side. Passarella was one of the defenders, Enrique was one of the midfielders etc. Had Ibrahim instead of Erico because of the unlucky criteria

My only deserved 1st round exit :lol:

Although, looking back, I would've voted for you here, I chickened out iirc. Sorry!


Edit - I hate my phone. Ibrahim, ffs
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I've been knocked out 1st round every time. Think I just see tactics different to most hahaha.
 
P-Nut0712 said:
I've been knocked out 1st round every time. Think I just see tactics different to most hahaha.
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I also lost in the 1st round when me and Annah tried to do something together (my first and only experience with a co-manager), but I refuse to count this as a loss because we were by far a better team, just went a little overboard with the underappreciated greats (I'm a sore loser, I know)


I still think that on its day this team would be unstoppable, but I would've voted for Viva here too tbh. These drafts doesn't rate unbalanced teams
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/sheep-draft-harms-vs-vivajanuzaj.400832/

The fact that I slept through for the first half of the game as I was adjusting to the NY time didn't help too :lol:
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Ugh, I just realized I got sidetracked trying to verify that Junior award that I actually forgot to vote for Physio, I had meant to vote for him :(

I remembered that Junior played well in Italy but I didn't think he was player of the season level in Serie A in that era.
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I've picked Junior a few times before and that award is legit except it isn't the regular one, more like a players' foreign player of the year, or maybe it was the highest average rating according to Gazzetta or similar.

Still indicates the very high level he performed at while there.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
Would tuesday suit you and joga mate? Other than that any time over the weekend is fine for me.
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Yeah that's fine by us mate. Let's do it then.

Semifinals

TUE 9/25
Skizzo/Pat vs Enigma/Joga

WED 9/26
oneniltothearsenal vs Maz/Mar/R
 
I tend to agree with both main conclusions above, regarding draft order and GOATs:

1) Yep - the fat boy and Garrincha have stood out in terms of impact, and based purely on their reception (always a bit of a guesstimate, as we haven't heard from everyone who voted) they could have been blocked.

2) The fact that #1 through #3 are now in the semis is down to other factors beyond - simply - having the 3 top picks on board. Bit of luck, bit of skill - as anto says, we often enough see that GOATs aren't used very cleverly and end up having minimal impact in spite of their vote pulling ability.

Of course, what could always be argued is that if you end up with the top dogs (in the pool) in the final stages anyway, you might as well go with zero blocks to begin with - but I'm not convinced that applies here: The fat boy and Garrincha ended up with very experienced drafters for one thing - which is obviously pure coincidence. And on a general level I do think the chance of having, well, non-GOATs shine in the draft as such increases dramatically by removing Messadona et al from the equation. The latter isn't really all that much about making sure nobody gets a free ticket to the final - but more about those players adding very little that hasn't already been discussed to death in previous drafts.
 
antohan said:
Absolutely. The fun is in setting out to accomplish a certain side and executing towards that, not in picking whatever is best and end up with a winning side you have no real love for.

e.g. I'm sure you really enjoyed your British and Irish draft side, even when you knew that sticking to that homage wasn't going to win it for you.
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Aye that British/Irish Draft team remains one of my favourites. I'd always been a Celtic sympathiser, but I'd kind of lost touch with that due to getting sick of all the sectarian bollocks associated with the Old Firm here in Ireland. Researching that Lisbon Lions team in depth really rekindled my affection for the club, and I'm glad we stuck with that Celtic core to the end.

antohan said:
You've got stronger, but Physio should have won that game. It's no dig or shame, he drafted better overall despite not being first, which was the point being discussed.
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I didn't think we got much stronger at all between our first match and our second. Thiago Silva strengthened our central defence nicely granted, but if anything I preferred Pavoni LB/Junior CM to Junior LB/Simeone CM. Physio drafted easily the best set of Pool 2 players out of everyone, and fleshed out his team very nicely, but I still think we shaded it due to a slightly better-balanced midfield :)
 
Aldo said:
@antohan 's comments in that game are interesting. :D
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Sure, you know I've been banging on about it for years.

The likes of @Theon keep resorting to how Passarella is a great defender even if told no to get forward (which is true), or that they can take turns, but when you have Daniel and Bobby/Cabrini that's some top draft real estate and it's crazy to use watered down versions of them.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
Researching that Lisbon Lions team in depth really rekindled my affection for the club, and I'm glad we stuck with that Celtic core to the end.
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It certainly came across that way and it made me revisit them and get to know more about them out of interest.

Any team that gets their manager to stick to their guns and not just happily replace key components with sexier ones is a team worth looking into in my book.

I still think we shaded it due to a slightly better-balanced midfield :)
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Could have had a better fit than Simeone anchoring, but what really caught the eye was precisely that kid combo of El Nene and El Pibe. It was a different and compelling proposition within this draft's theme.
 
antohan said:
Sure, you know I've been banging on about it for years.

The likes of @Theon keep resorting to how Passarella is a great defender even if told no to get forward (which is true), or that they can take turns, but when you have Daniel and Bobby/Cabrini that's some top draft real estate and it's crazy to use watered down versions of them.
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I agree. :)
 
To celebrate the semi-finals lets have a brief look at one more almost forgotten legend who was unpicked. River Plate's first superstar. Bernabé Ferreyra.

52a20e97e2e66_800x0.jpg



El Mortero de Rufino.
His nick name wasn't mortar for nothing. His record transfer fee to River earned them the Millonarios moniker. He had one of the most powerful shots of the era and indeed all-time. In an interview he said "My brothers kept telling me I had to have the strongest shot in town. They made me kick the ball from morning to afternoon every day".

River tried to maximize this strong shot even further by soaking their ball in water the night before matches to make it heavier. The heavy ball combined with the Mortar's rocket shots gained a dangerous reputation. Boca keeper Juan Yustrich fainted after taking one of Ferreyra's shots to his stomach. Independiente's keeper Fernando Bello saved a Ferreyra penalty but it broke both his wrists. People have talked about how Di Stefano learned from José Manuel Moreno, its important to also note that Moreno and Pedernera's mentor was el Fiera Ferreyra. If we look at footballing mentors as like martial arts master lineages then its:

Ferreyra -> JM Moreno -> Di Stefano

more:

http://www.elgrafico.com.ar/2013/12/31/C-5026-las-cartas-de-bernabe.php

http://xenen.com.ar/2015/09/01/el-mito-bernabe-ferreyra/

Angels with Dirty Faces - Jonathan Wilson
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow said:
And I'd have taken you down, if only I'd been a bit more sober....and wiser! :(
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You got us in the long run by gift-wrapping Souness to MJJ though, as I never tire of reminding you :D.

antohan said:
It certainly came across that way and it made me revisit them and get to know more about them out of interest.

Any team that gets their manager to stick to their guns and not just happily replace key components with sexier ones is a team worth looking into in my book.



Could have had a better fit than Simeone anchoring, but what really caught the eye was precisely that kid combo of El Nene and El Pibe. It was a different and compelling proposition within this draft's theme.
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Its great to hear that we stoked your interest in the Lisbon Lions because of that draft. That's what its all about really, and we all know how many players and great sides you've introduced us to.

Agreed on Cubillas and Valderrama. The football those two would have played is just :drool: (sorry Chester). Skizzo and I talked about them as a combo very early on and I was mulling over a diamond with Valderrama at the base, flanked by two mobile ball-winners like Simeone and Vidal, but there was no way Cubillas was making it back to us for our second pick, never mind putting together all the rest.

I'm glad we got Bochini anyway, as I've had a slight obsession with him for ages. He was supposed to be our second pick in the Reserves Draft after Seeler, but it became clear most teams were sorted for a playmaker so we kept on delaying it. Things opened up perfectly for a 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 instead, and Bochini somehow ended up not getting picked by anybody :lol:. That's another team I really liked, but we got dumped out in the first round by an even better Joga team:

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