To be honest I'm not motivated to argue with you as we understand lots of football (and even logic) basics differently, it's not exactly news. You don't like the comparison - fair enough, dully noted. From what I've read about him, I think this comparison is appropriate, and it's not based on one scorpion kick that I mentioned - if you really want to understand what I'm talking about, which I don't think you are, do your research. Dixi.
The Americas Draft
- Thread starter Chesterlestreet
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Dully noted to you as well. Not sure how we have disagreed on logic tbh, which seems a strange shout
.Said it before but you're a tad too defensive with these things mate, I've read about Erico previously and I just don't see that particular comparison - that's all. It seems your keeping those cards quite close to your chest so hopefully we'll see it explained in more detail during the match thread, as I always enjoy reading your views.
You are getting really tiresome with this. Football didn't start with colour TV. If you can't be arsed with the black and white fine, but there's tonnes of footage that is sufficient to get an idea on a player and contrast it against the written stuff and received wisdom.
What next? George Best is myth too?
Speaking of the devil, Best's record at United (not career, which is obviously worse for well known reasons) was 137 in 361. I'm not saying it's a bad record, it isn't, and neither is Joya's. This generation has got a bit too used to the 1gpg freaks.
Yeah, but you can go and watch an awful lot of footage of Best playing football. How much is there of Joya? Best also played wide (and was our top scorer consistently during his best years), Joya was a striker.
Played left wing too.
I mean, look at this:
It's not overly impressive. I don't like to denigrate older generations, because it happens too often and a lot of times unjustly, but this just isn't good football.
Joya isn't pre footage and it's definitely an intriguing point given how you have Andrade (there's a condensed match involving him though), Domingos and Gambetta whilst we have Zizinho and Erico.
As much as I'd love replying to some of those points raised by you, I'd much rather stay out of it here and discuss it in the match thread.
Whats really tiresome are your snide condescending remarks, exaggerations, red herrings and name calling.
Your alleged grandapa and some other Uruguayan journo you claim to know dont count as objective sources mate. Unless you want to link an article
How that clip gets named after him I'll never know. It's 30 secs waiting for kick off and an inconsequential first minute and a half.That game ended 4-2 though and it was a cracking comeback.
Funny because the only time I mentioned my grandad was related to him raving about Domingos.
There's tonnes of modern drafts, not sure what the point is of playing all time ones if you are going to bang on about players being myths, reputations not being based on facts, etc.
I've no idea what you are referring to with name calling, I said your angle was getting tiresome and it is. You are the one (once again) questioning other people's judgement, sources and motivations.
This is the last post on the matter of the double standard being espoused by some people.
This clip was used to allege Abbadie was some great winger yet its really just atrocious goalkeeping and a "schoolboy" move.
And yet Ezyaguirre is denigrated as "schoolboy defending" for this in 1963.
My point is not against pre-footage players [or limited footage players], its against a double standard being employed. Both players are playing with a relatively equal degree of intensity yet one is hyped up and the other put down due to subjective reasons.
This clip was used to allege Abbadie was some great winger yet its really just atrocious goalkeeping and a "schoolboy" move.
And yet Ezyaguirre is denigrated as "schoolboy defending" for this in 1963.
My point is not against pre-footage players [or limited footage players], its against a double standard being employed. Both players are playing with a relatively equal degree of intensity yet one is hyped up and the other put down due to subjective reasons.
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That's a bit rich talking about double standards when you were telling me I cherry pick stuff and use it out of context.
This clip was used to allege Abaddie was some great winger yet its really just atrocious goalkeeping and a "schoolboy" move.
No, it was not. It was posted as part of a much more extensive post which wasn't even focused on Abbadie. It's a good run, good dribble and good finish, but you can tell from his demeanour he was quite non-plussed about it himself.
I even acknowledged how hard it was to find proper footage of him as a winger. Yet I was playing him in his late incarnation as a disciplined right midfielder and took the time to post some examples from as big a game and rival as could be found (funny how my boys tend to do well in the high stakes games you treat as "blips that don't prove peaks").
I even translated articles in Italian for @diarm. Which is what I often do, look for everything I can put forward supporting the case and not expecting people to go on my say-so.
And yet Ezyaguirre is denigrated as "schoolboy defending" for this in 1963.
My point is not against pre-footage players [or limited footage players], its against a double standard being employed. Both players are playing with a relatively equal degree of intensity yet one is hyped up and the other put down due to subjective reasons.
I never used that clip, I don't use gifs.com. Actually, I think it's the first time I see it.
What I used was this clip of his performance for the FIFA XI, starting from ~3:50, he is the schoolboy defender donning the blue #2. Anyone watching that can tell the guy has no positional sense whatsoever, no bite, and is a bang average defender.
Well worth watching regardless of Eyzaguirre (whom I didn't even mention while you had him).
I don't get what your problem is, I thought Mazhar fecked up the other day, waited until the next day when the game had gone completely inactive and told him so. When I voted the score was 12-8 so it all had a grand impact of one vote (for you, from @mazhar
). I know how these things work, I knew there were no votes left in the game so was quite open about my views, which weren't even focused on your team but how mazhar screwed up. Bonkers.Re Erico. I see where harms is coming from in the way Erico was famed for the agile and acrobatic ways he was able to turn in crosses - a very Ibra-esque quality. That said, in terms of his other qualities and his build he's more Larsson (fantastic leap, great header, predatory goalscorer, intelligent player) for me.
There ain't much footage of him admittedly enough, but these two games should give a good idea of his quality and playing style.
Also whilst he started out as a striker, he was mostly a left winger cum wing-forward throughout his career, esp for Penarol forming a dangerous duo with Spencer, and is regarded as one of the best South American left wingers of all time.
That video does him no justice though and is one of the more bizarre player compilation videos that I've come across. If you are interested, just watch those matches. The first was an absolute must watch for me, given the players on show - Matosas, Rocha, Goncalves, Joya, Spencer, Onega, Cubilla, Abbadie, Mazurkiewicz, Carrizo, Caetano, Lezcano amongst others. Was a cracking contest nevertheless. The second match features a better individual performance by Joya imo and it's against the reigning European Cup holders Real Madrid in the Intercontinental Cup Final (he had a stormer against an Eusebio led European Cup Winning Benfica in the 1961 Intercontinental Cup Final too, scoring 2 goals in one of the legs, with his partner in crime Spencer nabbing another two).
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Very good post, thanks. I'm looking at the first video clip now.
@oneniltothearsenal our stuff are in with Chester so feel free to start whenever you like today.
Good shout, although I doubt Larsson would have Don Alfredo saying he was the best he had ever seen.
I agree though, what I gathered from @harms wasn't him being like Ibra but having the imagination to make a goal materialise out of nowhere, and the quality and resourcefulness to execute the unthinkable.
It's probably the steroids bit that confuses it. More like Ibra on acid.
Well, that part was a joke (Nordahl - Vieri). But yeah, I was talking about what you said here, although you articulated it way better than me.
Yeah got that. Thing is we can imagine how much more Vieri you get with steroids. Since this is more about flair and visualising what no one else does steroids won't cut it, LSD would.
Aye a style shout rather than a standards one. I thought Don Alfredo gave his GOAT recognition to Pedernera though? Not that it really matters though, they were the stars in a star-laden era for Argentine football.
Probably similar to van basten in terms of style - dominant in the air, technical, a penchant for acrobatic goals and the ability to do the unthinkable in the box like you stated.
There are plenty of articles on di Stefano claiming Erico was his idol and the best player he ever saw - mind, I think he said the same thing about Pedernera too.
http://www.martiperarnau.com/magazine/historias/santoral/arsenio-erico-el-idolo-de-di-stefano/
http://www.ultimahora.com/el-argentino-di-stefano-se-arrodilla-arsenio-erico-n176270.html
Not sure if this is the vid of that interview, maybe anto or a spanish speaker could help out.
EDIT: Apparently, he sent a letter to Erico in 1966, saying that he wasn't as good as Erico was or something along those lines. So yeah, needless to say di Stefano held him in high regard.
http://sanluisdeelegantesport.com/arsenio-erico-el-idolo-de-di-stefano/
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Yeah, I later thought of him as of a better comparison, less playmak-ish too
The final is up now.
I'm pretty sure I translated a fair bit of that interview when I picked Erico in the All-Time draft. @Gio, yes, he also praises Pedernera as the key to La Maquina, but it's when referring to Erico that his entire body language reverts to that of an awestruck kid and can't even find words to describe him.
A bit like how you imagine Cal? referring to Cristiano... except it's ADS and not the caf's Cal?
Great draft @Chesterlestreet . Been one of the more informational drafts that I've been a part of and the rule tweaks involving the voting and reinforcement phases worked out a treat imo.
I'm very pleased with how it all played out - but I will take very little credit for anything: It's mainly been a case of trying out ideas that have been banging about for a while now.
Special credit should be given here to @Edgar Allan Pillow - for the 3-14 upgrade model.
I agree that it's been a very informative draft - lots of players on display that we've learned more about. And in general I'm also very pleased with how the matches have played out - many genuinely interesting points have been debated, and there hasn't been much mud slinging, etc.
Yeah, great draft @Chesterlestreet well run with innovations for the better!
well done to you both guys and looking forward for your next idea @Edgar Allan Pillow . Long due draft and really interesting players that got the chance to shine.
Just mentioning this, as the idea struck me the other day: What one could do here is to threadmark particularly interesting profile/anecdote type posts - which may be of interest to people.
In the absence of a draft blog (which we've discussed before), as it were. There's a lot of great info posted in a thread like this - but reading through the whole bloody thing is obviously a bit of a pain, since much of it is just "who picked who" posts.
I'm not saying I'll actually be arsed to do this! Maybe I will. If I'm bored of an evening and devoid of beer.
But the point is that this could be done per default in future drafts - just slap a threadmark on those posts.
In the absence of a draft blog (which we've discussed before), as it were. There's a lot of great info posted in a thread like this - but reading through the whole bloody thing is obviously a bit of a pain, since much of it is just "who picked who" posts.
I'm not saying I'll actually be arsed to do this! Maybe I will. If I'm bored of an evening and devoid of beer.
But the point is that this could be done per default in future drafts - just slap a threadmark on those posts.
It's been mooted stating bias on presenting manager, but I think it'd be a good resource for many despite that. Lots including me don't know anything about a player but then get enough information (even with the bias) to be considered informative.
I reckon I'll start a thread soon.