The Americas Draft

oneniltothearsenal said:
This draft got me thinking a little more about how times change. Today, the Ballon d'Or is seen as almost the definitive last word on the rankings of elite players every year at least in any sort of official capacity since obviously everyone has opinions. But its still just one group from France Football. In the 1980s and before a lot of other magazines were held in equal regard as far as their journalist polling for great players and tournament ratings. El Grafico from Argentina, Guerin Sportivo from Italy, Kicker from Germany and others were generally just as respected as France Football. Then you also had a lot of newspapers from every country doing their own journal polls for player of the year.
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The Ballon d'or was always an award given through a points system with respected football writers from all over Europe voting. It's never been a group from France Football as far as I know. Usually the German voter was the main journalist of the kicker magazine. That's why it was always valued higher than the other awards. It really was voted by all the relevant countries. For example, when Stanley Matthews won the first ever Ballon d'or, the following 16 nations voted:

There were 16 voters, from Austria, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, England, France, Hungary, Italy, the Netherlands, Portugal, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, West Germany and Yugoslavia.

Of course it was only about European players up to the early 90's, so it wasn't relevant for South American players. Not sure what the equivalent for South America would be up until the Ballon d'Or became open for all players and not just European.
 
Skizzo/Pat 1. Ronaldo (BRA) 2. L. Junior (BRA) 3. Joya (PER) 4. Bochini (ARG) 5. D. Pereyra (URU) 6. R. Pavoni (URU) 7. J. Altafini (BRA) 8. Rattin (ARG) 9. P. Forlan (URU)

Enigma/Joga 1. M.Garrincha (BRA) 2. J.Zanetti (ARG) 3. D.Godin (URU) 4. Zito (BRA) 5. Ruben Sosa (URU) 6. J. Veron (ARG) 7. M.Kempes (ARG) 8. A. Ancheta (URU) 9. Branco (BRA)

oneniltothearsenal 1. Zico (BRA) 2. Domingos Da Guia (BRA) 3. Socrates (BRA) 4. Leonel Sánchez (CHI) 5. Eyzaguirre (CHI) 6. Careca (BRA) 7. R. Marcos (CHI) 8. Júlio César da Silva (BRA) 9. Marinho Chagas (BRA)

Tuppet 1. Romario (BRA) 2. L. Monti (ARG) 3. V. Andrade (URU) 4. Perfumo (ARG) 5. Hector Scarone (URU) 6. Roberto Matosas (URU) 7. Deco (BRA) 8. A. Sastre (ARG) 9. O. Caetano (URU)

Aldo 1. D. Passarella (ARG) 2. R. Carlos (BRA) 3. E. Francescoli (URU) 4. O. Ruggeri (ARG) 5. J. Mascherano (ARG) 6. Leônidas Da Silva (BRA) 7. F. Arce (PAR) 8. A. Di María (ARG) 9. W. Martínez (URU)

EAP/Sjor 1. Djalma (BRA) 2. O Varela (URU) 3. Neymar (BRA) 4. I Cordoba (COL) 5. P Rocha (URU) 6. Tostao (BRA) 7. Jair da Costa (BRA) 8. A Angelilo (ARG) 9. Hugo de Leon (URU)

Physio 1. H. Chumpitaz (PER) 2. T. Cubillas (PER) 3. C. Valderrama (COL) 4. Julinho (BRA) 5. G. Delgado (PER) 6. D. Simeone (ARG) 7. E. Cambiasso (ARG) 8. L. Artime (ARG) 9. Canhoteiro (BRA)

Gio 1. Ronaldinho (BRA) 2. Nasazzi (URU) 3. Erico (PAR) 4. Zizinho (BRA) 5. Pedernera (ARG) 6. Mauro Silva (BRA) 7. Gambetta (URU) 8. Bellini (BRA) 9. José Leandro Ferreira (BRA)

Maz/Mar/R 1. Didi (BRA) 2. Hugo Sanchez (MEX) 3. Marzolini (ARG) 4. Néstor Gonçalves (URU) 5. C. Gamarra (PAR) 6. Ghiggia (URU) 7. Zagallo (BRA) 8. Mauro Ramos (BRA) 9. Jorge Burruchaga (ARG)

MounchesterUtd 1. Chilavert (PAR) 2. Rivelino (BRA) 3. Vidal (CHI) 4. Kaka (BRA) 5. W. Samuel (ARG) 6. Zamorano (CHI) 7. José Macia Pepe (BRA) 8. A. Gallego (ARG) 9. Marcelo (BRA)

DavidG 1. Cafu (BRA)2. Rivaldo ( BRA) 3. T. Silva ( BRA) 4. Aldair ( BRA) 5. Clodoaldo ( BRA) 6. Julio Cesar Romero ( PAR) 7. Michele Andreolo ( URU) 8. Radamel Falcao ( COL) 9. Juan Pablo sorin (ARG)

Raees 1. P.R. Falcao (BRA) 2. Jairzinho (BRA) 3. J.M. Moreno (ARG) 4. P. Montero (URU) 5. R. Ayala (ARG) 6. A.Recoba (URU) 7. Orsi (ARG) 8. Pedro Petrone (URU) 9. V.Benitez (PER)

Boris 1. Schiaffino (URU) 2. J.L. Andrade (URU) 3. Gerson (BRA) 4. A. Spencer (ECU) 5. J. Melendez (PER) 6. Nestor Rossi (ARG) 7. F. Loustau (ARG) 8. Jorginho (BRA) 9.

Mciahel Goodman 1. C. Alberto (BRA) 2. G. Batistuta (ARG) 3. Lucio (BRA) 4. Dunga (BRA) 5. O. Ardilles (ARG) 6. Riquelme (ARG) 7. Crespo (ARG) 8. OPEN 9.

Jayvin 1. Redondo (ARG) 2. L. Suarez (URU) 3. Sivori (ARG) 4. Cueto (PER) 5. R. Marquez (MEX) 6. Maicon (BRA) 7. J. Velasquez (PER) 8. Tarantini (ARG) 9.

P-Nut/Downcast 1. N. Santos (BRA) 2. J.E. Santamaría (URU) 3. Dani Alves (BRA) 4. Alexis Sánchez (CHI) 5. Cerezo (BRA) 6. Luis Edm. Pereira (BRA) 7. D. Forlan (URU) 8. A.Quintano (CHI) 9.


@BorisDeLeFora
 
I've asked Chester about the eligibility of a player, would I be just as well throwing him up here and see what people think? Like, either I can have him or no one can, so it won't really make a difference I don't think.
 
Right, this is going down the Deco route, although I'm not sure it is as strong a claim, anyhow...

Pepe

He was born in Brazil and moved to Portugal at age 18. He made no senior appearances in Brazil and never represented any Brazilian youth teams.

After 5 years in Portugal he gained citizenship and declared for Portugal. In the mean time apparently he rejected a call up in 2006 for the Brazilian national team, one year before he would become eligible to play for Portugal.

Thoughts?
 
Balu said:
players up to the early 90's, so it wasn't relevant for South American players. Not sure what the equivalent for South America would be up until the Ballon d'Or became open for all players and not just European.
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South American footballer of the year, surely? Also voted by journalists
 
BorisDeLeFora said:
Right, this is going down the Deco route, although I'm not sure it is as strong a claim, anyhow...

Pepe

He was born in Brazil and moved to Portugal at age 18. He made no senior appearances in Brazil and never represented any Brazilian youth teams.

After 5 years in Portugal he gained citizenship and declared for Portugal. In the mean time apparently he rejected a call up in 2006 for the Brazilian national team, one year before he would become eligible to play for Portugal.

Thoughts?
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No problems whatsoever IMO. He was a product of Corinthians youth academy and was only eligible for Brazil until aged 24ish I think.
 
If deco is eligible surely so is pepe.
 
I don't see a difference between the case of Deco & Pepe. No objection as far as I'm concerned.

But the ruler is Chesterlestreet.
 
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harms said:
South American footballer of the year, surely? Also voted by journalists
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Isn't that a bit of a weird one, given out by two different newspapers at times with different rules? I guess the El Mundo version could count, but the newer one shouldn't because only players playing in South America are eligible.
 
Raees said:
I'll go with Victor Benitez of Peru. DM for the 1963 European cup winning side for AC Milan
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I was considering him but opted for Velasquez instead. A very highly regarded player by all accounts though and apparently he could play as a defender too which would have been handy.
 
Here is my response when asking about Pepe

More controversial than Deco, I'd say. Never played at senior level in Brazil (which I have gone on record with as a minimum requirement of sorts). Then there's this:

Pepe never represented his native Brazil in any youth category. However, according to the player's father, in 2006 he was contacted by coach Dunga about a possible call-up, which he declined, stating that once he obtained Portuguese citizenship he would join its national team.



I dunno - I'd have to think about it some more. But unless you're formally requesting it, as it were, I'll just say "probably not" at this stage.

Fwiw I had no intention of picking him it came around the time I asked if Marius tresor could be considered ( lived in Guadeloupe until he was 19, a country which is now considered part of concacaf)
 
Balu said:
The Ballon d'or was always an award given through a points system with respected football writers from all over Europe voting. It's never been a group from France Football as far as I know. Usually the German voter was the main journalist of the kicker magazine. That's why it was always valued higher than the other awards. It really was voted by all the relevant countries. For example, when Stanley Matthews won the first ever Ballon d'or, the following 16 nations voted:

There were 16 voters, from Austria, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, England, France, Hungary, Italy, the Netherlands, Portugal, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, West Germany and Yugoslavia.

Of course it was only about European players up to the early 90's, so it wasn't relevant for South American players. Not sure what the equivalent for South America would be up until the Ballon d'Or became open for all players and not just European.
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Fair point on Kicker but then that differs from other magazines.

The Ballon d'Or was not more respected until the mid 1990s and beyond. I meant it was only one group of journalists voting. South American Footballer of the Year was voted on by journalists also. So was the Guerin Spotivo d'Or. In the 1980s maybe in Germany the Ballon more respected than Kicker but that wasnt the case elsewhere. Also if you read my post i wasnt just talking about world player of the year awards but also things like World Cup , Copa and tournamnet ratings ( which were also voted on by journalist fyi ). They offer other perspective and remind that France Football was not the be all , end all authroity
 
Pat_Mustard said:
Victor Benitez was our backup if someone got to Rattin before us. So fecking glad to finally have picked the minimum number of Pool 2 players. @Physiocrat did well snapping them up early, for peace of mind as much as anything.
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It wasn't my deliberate plan throughout. I wanted a top class defender to begin as defenders have been my Achilles heal before. Then my other top options went and picked accordingly. I was conscious of it but wasn't a master plan by any stretch
 
Jayvin said:
I was considering him but opted for Velasquez instead. A very highly regarded player by all accounts though and apparently he could play as a defender too which would have been handy.
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I wanted someone with proven European credentials but held of from picking him. W going to pick Sorin first.
 
Balu said:
Isn't that a bit of a weird one, given out by two different newspapers at times with different rules? I guess the El Mundo version could count, but the newer one shouldn't because only players playing in South America are eligible.
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Yeah, I'm talking about 1971-1986.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Fair point on Kicker but then that differs from other magazines.

The Ballon d'Or was not more respected until the mid 1990s and beyond. I meant it was only one group of journalists voting. South American Footballer of the Year was voted on by journalists also. So was the Guerin Spotivo d'Or. In the 1980s maybe in Germany the Ballon more respected than Kicker but that wasnt the case elsewhere. Also if you read my post i wasnt just talking about world player of the year awards but also things like World Cup , Copa and tournamnet ratings ( which were also voted on by journalist fyi ). They offer other perspective and remind that France Football was not the be all , end all authroity
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Oh yeah, fully agree with that. Maybe I misunderstood your post. But I don't think people take France Football's rankings for tournaments that seriously. It's really just that one award that is highly regarded and certainly more than it should be.
 
IMHO, the Ballon d'Or is only seen as a reference regarding the ranking of the top 3 players, generally 3 offensive players.

Does anyone still remember the #5 in 2013?

Then, a nomination could be viewed as a reference.

A single ranking including GKs, defenders, midfielders & attackers is of limited value.
 
Will be heading to bed in the next hour, is there anyone I can send my picks to if Goodman doesn't make an appearance soon?
 
Jayvin said:
Will be heading to bed in the next hour, is there anyone I can send my picks to if Goodman doesn't make an appearance soon?
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Yeah I'll be around
 
What I said above was that a minimum of sorts when it comes to the spirit of the draft would have to be matches at senior level. And if the player does not have that - he'll have to have something else. Something which makes the football connection obvious, so that picking the player in this draft makes some sense.

Pepe doesn't have that. He never played senior football in Brazil - and rejected a call-up for Brazil because he preferred to play for Portugal. The connection, football wise, isn't all that obvious, in other words.
 
Grand, I'll take Felipe Luis.

As I am on my phone could someone please update the list? Thanks
 
Skizzo/Pat 1. Ronaldo (BRA) 2. L. Junior (BRA) 3. Joya (PER) 4. Bochini (ARG) 5. D. Pereyra (URU) 6. R. Pavoni (URU) 7. J. Altafini (BRA) 8. Rattin (ARG) 9. P. Forlan (URU)

Enigma/Joga 1. M.Garrincha (BRA) 2. J.Zanetti (ARG) 3. D.Godin (URU) 4. Zito (BRA) 5. Ruben Sosa (URU) 6. J. Veron (ARG) 7. M.Kempes (ARG) 8. A. Ancheta (URU) 9. Branco (BRA)

oneniltothearsenal 1. Zico (BRA) 2. Domingos Da Guia (BRA) 3. Socrates (BRA) 4. Leonel Sánchez (CHI) 5. Eyzaguirre (CHI) 6. Careca (BRA) 7. R. Marcos (CHI) 8. Júlio César da Silva (BRA) 9. Marinho Chagas (BRA)

Tuppet 1. Romario (BRA) 2. L. Monti (ARG) 3. V. Andrade (URU) 4. Perfumo (ARG) 5. Hector Scarone (URU) 6. Roberto Matosas (URU) 7. Deco (BRA) 8. A. Sastre (ARG) 9. O. Caetano (URU)

Aldo 1. D. Passarella (ARG) 2. R. Carlos (BRA) 3. E. Francescoli (URU) 4. O. Ruggeri (ARG) 5. J. Mascherano (ARG) 6. Leônidas Da Silva (BRA) 7. F. Arce (PAR) 8. A. Di María (ARG) 9. W. Martínez (URU)

EAP/Sjor 1. Djalma (BRA) 2. O Varela (URU) 3. Neymar (BRA) 4. I Cordoba (COL) 5. P Rocha (URU) 6. Tostao (BRA) 7. Jair da Costa (BRA) 8. A Angelilo (ARG) 9. Hugo de Leon (URU)

Physio 1. H. Chumpitaz (PER) 2. T. Cubillas (PER) 3. C. Valderrama (COL) 4. Julinho (BRA) 5. G. Delgado (PER) 6. D. Simeone (ARG) 7. E. Cambiasso (ARG) 8. L. Artime (ARG) 9. Canhoteiro (BRA)

Gio 1. Ronaldinho (BRA) 2. Nasazzi (URU) 3. Erico (PAR) 4. Zizinho (BRA) 5. Pedernera (ARG) 6. Mauro Silva (BRA) 7. Gambetta (URU) 8. Bellini (BRA) 9. José Leandro Ferreira (BRA)

Maz/Mar/R 1. Didi (BRA) 2. Hugo Sanchez (MEX) 3. Marzolini (ARG) 4. Néstor Gonçalves (URU) 5. C. Gamarra (PAR) 6. Ghiggia (URU) 7. Zagallo (BRA) 8. Mauro Ramos (BRA) 9. Jorge Burruchaga (ARG)

MounchesterUtd 1. Chilavert (PAR) 2. Rivelino (BRA) 3. Vidal (CHI) 4. Kaka (BRA) 5. W. Samuel (ARG) 6. Zamorano (CHI) 7. José Macia Pepe (BRA) 8. A. Gallego (ARG) 9. Marcelo (BRA)

DavidG 1. Cafu (BRA)2. Rivaldo ( BRA) 3. T. Silva ( BRA) 4. Aldair ( BRA) 5. Clodoaldo ( BRA) 6. Julio Cesar Romero ( PAR) 7. Michele Andreolo ( URU) 8. Radamel Falcao ( COL) 9. Juan Pablo sorin (ARG)

Raees 1. P.R. Falcao (BRA) 2. Jairzinho (BRA) 3. J.M. Moreno (ARG) 4. P. Montero (URU) 5. R. Ayala (ARG) 6. A.Recoba (URU) 7. Orsi (ARG) 8. Pedro Petrone (URU) 9. V.Benitez (PER)

Boris 1. Schiaffino (URU) 2. J.L. Andrade (URU) 3. Gerson (BRA) 4. A. Spencer (ECU) 5. J. Melendez (PER) 6. Nestor Rossi (ARG) 7. F. Loustau (ARG) 8. Jorginho (BRA) 9. Filipe Luis (BRA)

Mciahel Goodman 1. C. Alberto (BRA) 2. G. Batistuta (ARG) 3. Lucio (BRA) 4. Dunga (BRA) 5. O. Ardilles (ARG) 6. Riquelme (ARG) 7. Crespo (ARG) 8. OPEN 9.

Jayvin 1. Redondo (ARG) 2. L. Suarez (URU) 3. Sivori (ARG) 4. Cueto (PER) 5. R. Marquez (MEX) 6. Maicon (BRA) 7. J. Velasquez (PER) 8. Tarantini (ARG) 9.

P-Nut/Downcast 1. N. Santos (BRA) 2. J.E. Santamaría (URU) 3. Dani Alves (BRA) 4. Alexis Sánchez (CHI) 5. Cerezo (BRA) 6. Luis Edm. Pereira (BRA) 7. D. Forlan (URU) 8. A.Quintano (CHI) 9.

@Mciahel Goodman
 
RULE (ELIGIBILITY)
To keep things simple towards the end here, you may regard what was said above as a RULE: If a player is not capped for a CONCACAF/CONMEBOL team, he needs matches (senior level) for a club in the region in order to be eligible. Junior level is not sufficient.

SEE ADDITIONAL NOTES
 
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Chesterlestreet said:
To keep things simple towards the end here, you may regard what was said above as a RULE: If a player is not capped for a CONCACAF/CONMEBOL team, he needs matches (senior level) for a club in the region in order to be eligible. Junior level is not sufficient.
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Just to be clear with this rule, said player must also be born in one of the countries in the CONCACAF/CONMEBOL, right?
 
mazhar13 said:
Just to be clear with this rule, said player must also be born in one of the countries in the CONCACAF/CONMEBOL, right?
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Yeah seems to be an addition to the OP rules
 
mazhar13 said:
Just to be clear with this rule, said player must also be born in one of the countries in the CONCACAF/CONMEBOL, right?
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Yes.

Eligible:

1. Has caps for relevant teams.
2. Born in the region AND has matches on senior level for club(s) in the region.

Beyond that "spirit of the draft" still applies, of course. So, not ALL players in categories 1 and 2 are necessarily eligible. One example being what I touched on earlier: The French players. Tresor, who has been mentioned, was born in the region and played for a local team on the face of it. However, Guadeloupe is a territory of France, had no proper national team at the time (and still doesn't if by "proper" we mean recognized by FIFA/eligible for WC qualification) - and the league he played in was ultimately governed by the FFF. In other words, the actual connection to the region isn't what it looks like at first glance.
 
Maspoli.

Skizzo/Pat 1. Ronaldo (BRA) 2. L. Junior (BRA) 3. Joya (PER) 4. Bochini (ARG) 5. D. Pereyra (URU) 6. R. Pavoni (URU) 7. J. Altafini (BRA) 8. Rattin (ARG) 9. P. Forlan (URU)

Enigma/Joga 1. M.Garrincha (BRA) 2. J.Zanetti (ARG) 3. D.Godin (URU) 4. Zito (BRA) 5. Ruben Sosa (URU) 6. J. Veron (ARG) 7. M.Kempes (ARG) 8. A. Ancheta (URU) 9. Branco (BRA)

oneniltothearsenal 1. Zico (BRA) 2. Domingos Da Guia (BRA) 3. Socrates (BRA) 4. Leonel Sánchez (CHI) 5. Eyzaguirre (CHI) 6. Careca (BRA) 7. R. Marcos (CHI) 8. Júlio César da Silva (BRA) 9. Marinho Chagas (BRA)

Tuppet 1. Romario (BRA) 2. L. Monti (ARG) 3. V. Andrade (URU) 4. Perfumo (ARG) 5. Hector Scarone (URU) 6. Roberto Matosas (URU) 7. Deco (BRA) 8. A. Sastre (ARG) 9. O. Caetano (URU)

Aldo 1. D. Passarella (ARG) 2. R. Carlos (BRA) 3. E. Francescoli (URU) 4. O. Ruggeri (ARG) 5. J. Mascherano (ARG) 6. Leônidas Da Silva (BRA) 7. F. Arce (PAR) 8. A. Di María (ARG) 9. W. Martínez (URU)

EAP/Sjor 1. Djalma (BRA) 2. O Varela (URU) 3. Neymar (BRA) 4. I Cordoba (COL) 5. P Rocha (URU) 6. Tostao (BRA) 7. Jair da Costa (BRA) 8. A Angelilo (ARG) 9. Hugo de Leon (URU)

Physio 1. H. Chumpitaz (PER) 2. T. Cubillas (PER) 3. C. Valderrama (COL) 4. Julinho (BRA) 5. G. Delgado (PER) 6. D. Simeone (ARG) 7. E. Cambiasso (ARG) 8. L. Artime (ARG) 9. Canhoteiro (BRA)

Gio 1. Ronaldinho (BRA) 2. Nasazzi (URU) 3. Erico (PAR) 4. Zizinho (BRA) 5. Pedernera (ARG) 6. Mauro Silva (BRA) 7. Gambetta (URU) 8. Bellini (BRA) 9. José Leandro Ferreira (BRA)

Maz/Mar/R 1. Didi (BRA) 2. Hugo Sanchez (MEX) 3. Marzolini (ARG) 4. Néstor Gonçalves (URU) 5. C. Gamarra (PAR) 6. Ghiggia (URU) 7. Zagallo (BRA) 8. Mauro Ramos (BRA) 9. Jorge Burruchaga (ARG)

MounchesterUtd 1. Chilavert (PAR) 2. Rivelino (BRA) 3. Vidal (CHI) 4. Kaka (BRA) 5. W. Samuel (ARG) 6. Zamorano (CHI) 7. José Macia Pepe (BRA) 8. A. Gallego (ARG) 9. Marcelo (BRA)

DavidG 1. Cafu (BRA)2. Rivaldo ( BRA) 3. T. Silva ( BRA) 4. Aldair ( BRA) 5. Clodoaldo ( BRA) 6. Julio Cesar Romero ( PAR) 7. Michele Andreolo ( URU) 8. Radamel Falcao ( COL) 9. Juan Pablo sorin (ARG)

Raees 1. P.R. Falcao (BRA) 2. Jairzinho (BRA) 3. J.M. Moreno (ARG) 4. P. Montero (URU) 5. R. Ayala (ARG) 6. A.Recoba (URU) 7. Orsi (ARG) 8. Pedro Petrone (URU) 9. V.Benitez (PER)

Boris 1. Schiaffino (URU) 2. J.L. Andrade (URU) 3. Gerson (BRA) 4. A. Spencer (ECU) 5. J. Melendez (PER) 6. Nestor Rossi (ARG) 7. F. Loustau (ARG) 8. Jorginho (BRA) 9. Filipe Luis (BRA)

Mciahel Goodman 1. C. Alberto (BRA) 2. G. Batistuta (ARG) 3. Lucio (BRA) 4. Dunga (BRA) 5. O. Ardilles (ARG) 6. Riquelme (ARG) 7. Crespo (ARG) 8. OPEN 9. R. Maspoli

Jayvin 1. Redondo (ARG) 2. L. Suarez (URU) 3. Sivori (ARG) 4. Cueto (PER) 5. R. Marquez (MEX) 6. Maicon (BRA) 7. J. Velasquez (PER) 8. Tarantini (ARG) 9.

P-Nut/Downcast 1. N. Santos (BRA) 2. J.E. Santamaría (URU) 3. Dani Alves (BRA) 4. Alexis Sánchez (CHI) 5. Cerezo (BRA) 6. Luis Edm. Pereira (BRA) 7. D. Forlan (URU) 8. A.Quintano (CHI) 9.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Also, why is @Jayvin tagging me instead of Boris?
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He presumably thought Boris had - officially - picked Pepe. In which case it would've been your turn.

He didn't factor in that Skizzo bribed me into convinced me with great and logical arguments to ruling Pepe ineligible, though.
 
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