The Americas Draft


Point a) covers it . But since at least 3 of us have been told we can't pick Thuram , David's or John barns ....
 
I'm okay with it. He started his football career at Brazil and even made 2 appearances for Corinthians. He may not have played much of his career in a CONMEBOL club(s) or nation, therefore going against the spirit of the draft (IMO), but it's still not as bad as Thuram, for example. For me, this is a similar case to di Stefano and Monti, and Monti was allowed to be picked.
 
From a certain (and very plausible) perspective, Deco is a Brazilian who opted to play for Portugal. His being selected for the latter was a matter of some controversy – which further emphasizes his connection to Brazil. He played at senior level (albeit briefly) both before and after he left for Europe. In short, there is an obvious connection there – he's a plausible representative of Brazilian football. He's also a representative of Portuguese football, obviously, but that is neither here nor there. Many players will be a bit of both in this draft.
 
Yeah it's the players that haven't been allowed that clouds it for me. The way I understood it was the the reason for not requiring caps was so uncapped players could be picked. Not so you could get players that were born there but spent the majority of their career representing a different national team and playing in a different league.
 
I'm happy with Deco. He's clearly Brazilian. It's not like he was born to Portuguese parents in Rio on their first anniversary, then went back home to Lisbon
 
Chesterlestreet said:
All players who a) were born in or b) have represented a nation that is a current CONMEBOL or CONCACAF member are eligible, with the exception of those listed as BLOCKED below.
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Chesterlestreet said:
NOTE ON ELIGIBILITY: All picks must be made in accordance with the spirit of the draft. Players should be plausible representatives - in football terms - of the region they were born in. If they are not, they will be rejected, regardless of being formally eligible as per the rules (see above). Make sure that you clear a potentially controversial player with the draft master before picking him.
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P-Nut0712 said:
Yeah it's the players that haven't been allowed that clouds it for me. The way I understood it was the the reason for not requiring caps was so uncapped players could be picked. Not so you could get players that were born there but spent the majority of their career representing a different national team and playing in a different league.
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DavidG said:
A can I intend on opening further now
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It's not a yes/no type situation here. Deco obviously has far more ties to South America, than for example, Seedorf or Edgar Davids or Thuram who all were born in this region but represented another country and had absolutely no other ties. Though technically not in spirit of the draft, I can accept Deco more than others I mention above.
 
DavidG said:
I'd agree but if Gio and EAP don't have a problem with it what chance have we got .
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The criteria seems fairly straightforward though - Chester opened it up to include players who were born in the Americas as well provided they had a genuine connection to that area. Deco is basically Brazilian and was so until he was 25 or thereabouts.
 
Gio said:
Chester opened it up to include players who were born in the Americas as well provided they had a genuine connection to that area.
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The problem was twofold:

1. I didn't want to include the CONCACAF area at all - so there's that. It adds very few genuinely interesting players - and a whole lot of potential trouble makers (players born in former European colonies).

2. If you're not going to insist on caps (i.e. ONLY players with caps for relevant nations are eligible), you have to have more specific/caveat heavy rules (which people clearly aren't keen on having).

And so you end up with "spirit of the draft", which is - necessarily - a matter of interpretation.
 
I see no problem with Deco. He was high on our list as well and bound to get picked with the relative lack of world class playmaking midfielders, apart from classic #10.
 
Does anyone know why deco elected to play for Portugal ?
 
Ronaldinho is happy to see Deco part of this draft

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In Brazil below

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DavidG said:
Does anyone know why deco elected to play for Portugal ?
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In his words:

"The president of the Portuguese Football Federation had been trying that [to get me to play for Portugal] for three years - Porto's president, too," Deco told Lancenet. "There was a lot of pressure for me to become a Portuguese citizen.

"My career was practically spent in Portugal, people on the street asked me to play for the country. My choice to represent Portugal was more like a gesture of gratitude for everything this country has given me.

"I was very happy there and very respected, I had already built a very strong connection with the country."

Although, for sake of completeness, some cynics have said it was because he wasn't getting selected or rated by the CBF powers that be. Before 2010 game vs. Portugal Dunga said "We're going to play against Brazil's B team" a clear dig at Deco implying he couldn't make the Brazil "A team". Deco did switch allegiance to Portugal in 2002 which was before he really made his name at Porto let alone Barca.
 
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So, we can say Deco is an AUTHENTIC brazilian player :cool:
 
Physiocrat said:
Couldn't get in the Brazil side. Dinho and Kaka made that somewhat difficult.
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So we have a player who didn't rate his own abilities against players he's surrounded by in this draft . Should make for interesting discussion .

Hopefully Marius tresor comes out of retirement to represent his native Guadeloupe directly after Mounchesters pick .
 
"Chiqui Arce"
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Francisco Arce​

Skizzo/Pat 1. Ronaldo 2. L. Junior 3. Joya 4. Bochini 5. D. Pereyra 6. R. Pavoni 7. J. Altafini
Enigma/Joga 1. Garrincha 2. Zanetti 3. Godin 4. Zito 5. Ruben Sosa 6. J. Veron 7. M.Kempes
oneniltothearsenal 1. Zico 2. D. Da Guia 3. Socrates 4. Leonel Sánchez 5. Eyzaguirre 6.Careca 7. R. Marcos
Tuppet 1. Romario 2. Monti 3. V. Andrade 4. Perfumo 5. Hector Scarone 6. Roberto Matosas 7. Deco
Aldo 1. Passarella 2. R. Carlos 3. Francescoli 4. Ruggeri 5. Mascherano 6. Leônidas 7. Arce
EAP/Sjor 1. D. Santos 2. O. Varela 3. Neymar 4. I. Cordoba 5. P. Rocha 6. Tostao 7.
Physio 1. Chumpitaz 2. Cubillas 3. Valderrama 4. Julinho 5. G. Delgado 6. Simeone 7.
Gio 1. Ronaldinho 2. Nasazzi 3. Erico 4. Zizinho 5. Pedernera 6. Mauro Silva 7.
Maz/Mar/R 1. Didi 2. Hugo Sanchez 3. Marzolini 4. Néstor Gonçalves 5. C. Gamarra 6. Ghiggia 7.
MounchesterUtd 1. Chilavert 2. Rivelino 3. Vidal 4. Kaka 5. W. Samuel 6. Zamorano 7.
DavidG 1. Cafu 2. Rivaldo 3. T. Silva 4. Aldair 5. Clodoaldo 6. Julio Cesar Romero 7.
Raees 1. P.R. Falcao 2. Jairzinho 3. J.M. Moreno 4. P. Montero 5. R. Ayala 6. A.Recoba 7.
Boris 1. Schiaffino 2. J.L. Andrade 3. Gerson 4. Spencer 5. J. Melendez 6. N. Rossi 7.
Mciahel Goodman 1. C. Alberto 2. G. Batistuta 3. Lucio 4. Dunga 5. O. Ardilles 6. Riquelme 7.
Jayvin 1. Redondo 2. L. Suarez 3. Sivori 4. Cueto 5. R. Marquez 6. Maicon 7.
P-Nut/Downcast 1. N. Santos 2. Santamaría 3. D. Alves 4. Alexis Sánchez 5. Cerezo 6. Luis Pereira 7.

@Edgar Allan Pillow
 
DavidG said:
So we have a player who didn't rate his own abilities against players he's surrounded by in this draft . Should make for interesting discussion .

Hopefully Marius tresor comes out of retirement to represent his native Guadeloupe directly after Mounchesters pick .
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TBF I think Deco is a pretty decent versatile midfielder. I also think the tactics pursued by Brazil at the time didn't suit him much. Brazil would snap his hand off to play for them now (if he was 25 again)
 
Skizzo/Pat 1. Ronaldo 2. L. Junior 3. Joya 4. Bochini 5. D. Pereyra 6. R. Pavoni 7. J. Altafini
Enigma/Joga 1. Garrincha 2. Zanetti 3. Godin 4. Zito 5. Ruben Sosa 6. J. Veron 7. M.Kempes
oneniltothearsenal 1. Zico 2. D. Da Guia 3. Socrates 4. Leonel Sánchez 5. Eyzaguirre 6.Careca 7. R. Marcos
Tuppet 1. Romario 2. Monti 3. V. Andrade 4. Perfumo 5. Hector Scarone 6. Roberto Matosas 7. Deco
Aldo 1. Passarella 2. R. Carlos 3. Francescoli 4. Ruggeri 5. Mascherano 6. Leônidas 7. Arce
EAP/Sjor 1. D. Santos 2. O. Varela 3. Neymar 4. I. Cordoba 5. P. Rocha 6. Tostao 7. Jair da Costa
Physio 1. Chumpitaz 2. Cubillas 3. Valderrama 4. Julinho 5. G. Delgado 6. Simeone 7.
Gio 1. Ronaldinho 2. Nasazzi 3. Erico 4. Zizinho 5. Pedernera 6. Mauro Silva 7.
Maz/Mar/R 1. Didi 2. Hugo Sanchez 3. Marzolini 4. Néstor Gonçalves 5. C. Gamarra 6. Ghiggia 7.
MounchesterUtd 1. Chilavert 2. Rivelino 3. Vidal 4. Kaka 5. W. Samuel 6. Zamorano 7.
DavidG 1. Cafu 2. Rivaldo 3. T. Silva 4. Aldair 5. Clodoaldo 6. Julio Cesar Romero 7.
Raees 1. P.R. Falcao 2. Jairzinho 3. J.M. Moreno 4. P. Montero 5. R. Ayala 6. A.Recoba 7.
Boris 1. Schiaffino 2. J.L. Andrade 3. Gerson 4. Spencer 5. J. Melendez 6. N. Rossi 7.
Mciahel Goodman 1. C. Alberto 2. G. Batistuta 3. Lucio 4. Dunga 5. O. Ardilles 6. Riquelme 7.
Jayvin 1. Redondo 2. L. Suarez 3. Sivori 4. Cueto 5. R. Marquez 6. Maicon 7.
P-Nut/Downcast 1. N. Santos 2. Santamaría 3. D. Alves 4. Alexis Sánchez 5. Cerezo 6. Luis Pereira 7.
 
Physiocrat said:
Couldn't get in the Brazil side. Dinho and Kaka made that somewhat difficult.
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Well yes he was competing with Rivaldo, Ronaldinho and then Kaka.

There are also tactical reasons. Post-82 Brazil's central midfielders have typically been defensively-minded with limited space for creative 8s like Deco. Not a lot of room unless they have been mega-talents.

Edit - As you've said in the other post.
 
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Gio said:
Post-82 Brazil's central midfielders have typically been defensively-minded with limited space for creative 8s like Deco. Not a lot of room unless they have been mega-talents.
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That change was post-86 WC. From 82 to 86, Tele Santana was still Brazilian manager and 32 year old Socrates was still the Brazilian 8, captain and key starting player. They still played the same style 82-86 it was just less effective as all the key players were getting over 30. It wasn't until after Tele left post WC86 that Brazil switched to more defensive 8s. Falcao was also at WC86 although he played a limited part.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
That change post-86 WC. From 82 to 86, Tele Santana was still Brazilian manager and 32 year old Socrates was still the Brazilian 8 and captain and key player. It wasn't until after Tele left post WC86 that Brazil switched to more defensive 8s
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Yeah fair enough. 1982 was the big watershed moment that prompted the change but it didn't come into effect until 1990 and really 1994.
 
Gio said:
Yeah fair enough. 1982 was the big watershed moment that prompted the change but it didn't come into effect until 1990 and really 1994.
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Yep - to be overly harsh (on a team I loved as a kid) the '86 team was a ghost of sorts: Basically the same thing (including an injured Zico being subbed on against France) - only older. And not wiser.
 
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Esteban Cambiasso

Skizzo/Pat 1. Ronaldo 2. L. Junior 3. Joya 4. Bochini 5. D. Pereyra 6. R. Pavoni 7. J. Altafini
Enigma/Joga 1. Garrincha 2. Zanetti 3. Godin 4. Zito 5. Ruben Sosa 6. J. Veron 7. M.Kempes
oneniltothearsenal 1. Zico 2. D. Da Guia 3. Socrates 4. Leonel Sánchez 5. Eyzaguirre 6.Careca 7. R. Marcos
Tuppet 1. Romario 2. Monti 3. V. Andrade 4. Perfumo 5. Hector Scarone 6. Roberto Matosas 7. Deco
Aldo 1. Passarella 2. R. Carlos 3. Francescoli 4. Ruggeri 5. Mascherano 6. Leônidas 7. Arce
EAP/Sjor 1. D. Santos 2. O. Varela 3. Neymar 4. I. Cordoba 5. P. Rocha 6. Tostao 7. Jair da Costa
Physio 1. Chumpitaz 2. Cubillas 3. Valderrama 4. Julinho 5. G. Delgado 6. Simeone 7. Cambiasso
Gio 1. Ronaldinho 2. Nasazzi 3. Erico 4. Zizinho 5. Pedernera 6. Mauro Silva 7.
Maz/Mar/R 1. Didi 2. Hugo Sanchez 3. Marzolini 4. Néstor Gonçalves 5. C. Gamarra 6. Ghiggia 7.
MounchesterUtd 1. Chilavert 2. Rivelino 3. Vidal 4. Kaka 5. W. Samuel 6. Zamorano 7.
DavidG 1. Cafu 2. Rivaldo 3. T. Silva 4. Aldair 5. Clodoaldo 6. Julio Cesar Romero 7.
Raees 1. P.R. Falcao 2. Jairzinho 3. J.M. Moreno 4. P. Montero 5. R. Ayala 6. A.Recoba 7.
Boris 1. Schiaffino 2. J.L. Andrade 3. Gerson 4. Spencer 5. J. Melendez 6. N. Rossi 7.
Mciahel Goodman 1. C. Alberto 2. G. Batistuta 3. Lucio 4. Dunga 5. O. Ardilles 6. Riquelme 7.
Jayvin 1. Redondo 2. L. Suarez 3. Sivori 4. Cueto 5. R. Marquez 6. Maicon 7.
P-Nut/Downcast 1. N. Santos 2. Santamaría 3. D. Alves 4. Alexis Sánchez 5. Cerezo 6. Luis Pereira 7.
 
Skizzo/Pat 1. Ronaldo 2. L. Junior 3. Joya 4. Bochini 5. D. Pereyra 6. R. Pavoni 7. J. Altafini
Enigma/Joga 1. Garrincha 2. Zanetti 3. Godin 4. Zito 5. Ruben Sosa 6. J. Veron 7. M.Kempes
oneniltothearsenal 1. Zico 2. D. Da Guia 3. Socrates 4. Leonel Sánchez 5. Eyzaguirre 6.Careca 7. R. Marcos
Tuppet 1. Romario 2. Monti 3. V. Andrade 4. Perfumo 5. Hector Scarone 6. Roberto Matosas 7. Deco
Aldo 1. Passarella 2. R. Carlos 3. Francescoli 4. Ruggeri 5. Mascherano 6. Leônidas 7. Arce
EAP/Sjor 1. D. Santos 2. O. Varela 3. Neymar 4. I. Cordoba 5. P. Rocha 6. Tostao 7. Jair da Costa
Physio 1. Chumpitaz 2. Cubillas 3. Valderrama 4. Julinho 5. G. Delgado 6. Simeone 7. Cambiasso
Gio 1. Ronaldinho 2. Nasazzi 3. Erico 4. Zizinho 5. Pedernera 6. Mauro Silva 7.
Maz/Mar/R 1. Didi 2. Hugo Sanchez 3. Marzolini 4. Néstor Gonçalves 5. C. Gamarra 6. Ghiggia 7.
MounchesterUtd 1. Chilavert 2. Rivelino 3. Vidal 4. Kaka 5. W. Samuel 6. Zamorano 7.
DavidG 1. Cafu 2. Rivaldo 3. T. Silva 4. Aldair 5. Clodoaldo 6. Julio Cesar Romero 7.
Raees 1. P.R. Falcao 2. Jairzinho 3. J.M. Moreno 4. P. Montero 5. R. Ayala 6. A.Recoba 7.
Boris 1. Schiaffino 2. J.L. Andrade 3. Gerson 4. Spencer 5. J. Melendez 6. N. Rossi 7.
Mciahel Goodman 1. C. Alberto 2. G. Batistuta 3. Lucio 4. Dunga 5. O. Ardilles 6. Riquelme 7.
Jayvin 1. Redondo 2. L. Suarez 3. Sivori 4. Cueto 5. R. Marquez 6. Maicon 7.
P-Nut/Downcast 1. N. Santos 2. Santamaría 3. D. Alves 4. Alexis Sánchez 5. Cerezo 6. Luis Pereira 7.

@Gio
 
As a final note on Deco, I could have gone for the following rule in hindsight:

Players who have represented non-CONCACAF/CONMEBOL national teams exclusively – are not eligible. That is, regardless of where they were born.

That would've taken care of all the Dutch/French/British, etc. players who really don't belong in this draft.

However, it would have made a player like Deco ineligible – which isn't entirely unproblematic, since he can be viewed as a player who genuinely represents both sides of the ocean in football terms, just like Di Stefano and a number of others (who played for both UEFA and CONMEBOL members, but did so in a different era, with other rules and restrictions).
 
I still think that the "theme" is pretty clear and it should include the likes of Deco and shouldn't include the likes of Seedorf or Barnes.

Creating a specific rule would've been too difficult (if even possible), so Chester's judgment on the connection of such player to the SA is as good as it gets
 
Yeah, the difference between Deco & Seedorf is clear.

One has learnt the job in South-America and is product of Brazilian Football and the other one is just visiting South-America.

However, we can say Barnes plays like a Jamaican footballer :D:p
 
A nice simple compromise could have been ;

A. Born in the country and his first senior appearance was for a club in the same continent he was born

Or

B. Has been capped by a concacaf/conmebol nation
 
As a piece of trivia, Barnes would've been eligible for Trinidad/Tobago as well as Jamaica - his father being Trinidadian.

And as another piece of trivia, his status as a very much British (not English, though!) footballer is emphasized by the fact that he's named after John Charles.
 
DavidG said:
A. Born in the country and his first senior appearance was for a club in the same continent he was born
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Yes, but then you could end up with a player who was a) born in the overseas territory of a European nation and b) made his first senior appearance for a club governed by the national federation of a UEFA member.

;)
 
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Skizzo/Pat 1. Ronaldo 2. L. Junior 3. Joya 4. Bochini 5. D. Pereyra 6. R. Pavoni 7. J. Altafini
Enigma/Joga 1. Garrincha 2. Zanetti 3. Godin 4. Zito 5. Ruben Sosa 6. J. Veron 7. M.Kempes
oneniltothearsenal 1. Zico 2. D. Da Guia 3. Socrates 4. Leonel Sánchez 5. Eyzaguirre 6.Careca 7. R. Marcos
Tuppet 1. Romario 2. Monti 3. V. Andrade 4. Perfumo 5. Hector Scarone 6. Roberto Matosas 7. Deco
Aldo 1. Passarella 2. R. Carlos 3. Francescoli 4. Ruggeri 5. Mascherano 6. Leônidas 7. Arce
EAP/Sjor 1. D. Santos 2. O. Varela 3. Neymar 4. I. Cordoba 5. P. Rocha 6. Tostao 7. Jair da Costa
Physio 1. Chumpitaz 2. Cubillas 3. Valderrama 4. Julinho 5. G. Delgado 6. Simeone 7. Cambiasso
Gio 1. Ronaldinho 2. Nasazzi 3. Erico 4. Zizinho 5. Pedernera 6. Mauro Silva 7. Gambetta
Maz/Mar/R 1. Didi 2. Hugo Sanchez 3. Marzolini 4. Néstor Gonçalves 5. C. Gamarra 6. Ghiggia 7.
MounchesterUtd 1. Chilavert 2. Rivelino 3. Vidal 4. Kaka 5. W. Samuel 6. Zamorano 7.
DavidG 1. Cafu 2. Rivaldo 3. T. Silva 4. Aldair 5. Clodoaldo 6. Julio Cesar Romero 7.
Raees 1. P.R. Falcao 2. Jairzinho 3. J.M. Moreno 4. P. Montero 5. R. Ayala 6. A.Recoba 7.
Boris 1. Schiaffino 2. J.L. Andrade 3. Gerson 4. Spencer 5. J. Melendez 6. N. Rossi 7.
Mciahel Goodman 1. C. Alberto 2. G. Batistuta 3. Lucio 4. Dunga 5. O. Ardilles 6. Riquelme 7.
Jayvin 1. Redondo 2. L. Suarez 3. Sivori 4. Cueto 5. R. Marquez 6. Maicon 7.
P-Nut/Downcast 1. N. Santos 2. Santamaría 3. D. Alves 4. Alexis Sánchez 5. Cerezo 6. Luis Pereira 7.

@mazhar13 @Marty1968 @RedTiger
 
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