Suarez

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cesc's_mullet said:
He's the best available player we can potentially sign. Unfortunately the fact he's potentially available (for us to sign) is almost entirely due to his khuntishness though. Had he not done half the stupid shit he has I daresay a fair few clubs would have been interested, beyond us and Real Madrid.
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So just because he's a very good footballer when occasionally not serving a lengthy ban, you're happy to have Arsenal's good name tarnished by the inevitable and endless shite that Suarez represents?

You'd be happy to put Arsenal's badge on that man?
 
ciderman9000000 said:
Is anyone so prepared though?

We're all proud of our football clubs for reasons deeper than success on the pitch. Their club acting with dignity and integrity is important to most football supporters. Clubs such as Liverpool, United and Arsenal have long been built upon strong principles which the fans can get behind and feel passionate about. Luis Suarez though has single handedly shattered those principles at Liverpool since signing for them, he's dragged the name of the club through the dirt and turned it's supporters into a bunch of contrary apologists.

Would anyone really welcome this man into their club in the knowledge that they'd likely be opening themselves up to the same fate? I doubt that they would to be honest, and rightly so. I don't think it going over the top to suggest that most football supporters would not want the moral standing of their club (and ultimately themselves) so severely jeopardised as would be the case in the event of signing Luis Suarez.

What would be the cost of twenty-five goals and season? £40m, a series of lengthy bans, repeatedly made a laughing stock and the inevitable compete disregard for moral principle in conflict with unwavering support for the club? feck that.
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I suppose it comes down to how desperate they (the individual) are for the club to succeed. Once again it's easier for a United supporter to be more verhement about it, as they are reigning champions with a world class forward leading their lines.

If they were in Liverpool's position you can bet your bottom dollar the support would be divided about Suarez, and I daresay the majority would be backing him in.
 
ciderman9000000 said:
So just because he's a very good footballer when not serving the lengthy ban you're happy to have Arsenal's good name tarnished by the inevitable and endless shite that Suarez represents?

You'd be happy to put Arsenal's badge on that man?
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Me personally? No.

I would much rather we sign Higuain, even if he is an inferior player to Suarez. But I do understand why Arsenal is interested, as he would be the only world class player we have/will be able to sign in a long long time.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
I suppose it comes down to how desperate they (the individual) are for the club to succeed. Once again it's easier for a United supporter to be more verhement about it, as they are reigning champions with a world class forward leading their lines.

If they were in Liverpool's position you can bet your bottom dollar the support would be divided about Suarez, and I daresay the majority would be backing him in.
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Success at what cost? What more does Suarez have to do before fans say no to him and remove their support?

I understand that Liverpool fans are kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place, conflicted with support of the club vs support for one of its players. What I cannot understand is other clubs and their supporters wishing that same predicament upon themselves!
 
Just to clarify a point or two: To me this would've been clear and simple. I would have gotten my coat and left. I'm sure I would've come back at some point, and I would probably have checked the league table every now and then, but I would've taken a sabbatical of sorts as an active fan. But I'm a weary cnut these days. What I would've done twenty years ago, as a teenager, or even ten years ago - I can't say that with absolute certainty. Because the fandom is a very strong thing - it can make you act like a complete nutter.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that to condemn Liverpool fans - and now Arsenal fans, even before the deal is a fact - for defending the bastard is on some level to condemn the very fandom itself. See the thing? I'm not defending him at all, I hope that's clear. But I can, at least to an extent, sympathize with the fans who are stuck with him. The idiocy of being a fan, the stupid, irrational tribalism - it becomes all too glaringly obvious when the scousers stick up for someone like Suarez. But it's a universal idiocy - it's not them alone, it's just a more extreme and conspicuous version of something we all are marked by, as fans. Because these fans, the ones I'm talking about, don't really condone Suarez' behaviour - they're not people with dubious views on other cultures, or people who go in for cannibalism - they just stick blindly up for him because he's wearing a certain shirt, no other reason.
 
alastair said:
I was thinking earlier on today as I was walking down the street, philosophically considering the Suarez situation, about the idea of forgiveness.

If I heard a news story about a guy who had been in prison for racially aggravated assault and he was being released having served his time, I'd hope he had been rehabilitated and he could get a new job and become a useful member of society once more.

I then translated that across to Suarez. I deplore his past actions, but if he joined Arsenal and learnt the error of his ways, then who am I to say that he doesn't merit a second chance?

If I would give one to a normal man on the street, why not a footballer?

I'll get slaughtered for this because it gives the impression I'm ignoring the fact that he racially abused someone and then bit someone else, but I think there's something to it.
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I'd say his whole 'the British media are out to get me' schtick at the start of the summer shows that he doesn't have any remorse, which most people consider a prerequisite for forgiveness.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
Me personally? No.

I would much rather we sign Higuain, even if he is an inferior player to Suarez. But I do understand why Arsenal is interested, as he would be the only world class player we have/will be able to sign in a long long time.
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Good for you.

Look, I'm not naive, I understand that success often comes with a moral cost, be that winning purely through great financial wealth or the occasional dive or piece of dirty play or whatever. It's not ideal, but as supporters we're often able to turn the blind eye and enjoy success regardless; no club is entirely squeaky clean in every sense. At some point though one has to draw the line and refuse to accept certain things, and in my opinion, even for non-United fans, Luis Suarez should be sitting way over on the wrong side of that line.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Just to clarify a point or two: To me this would've been clear and simple. I would have gotten my coat and left. I'm sure I would've come back at some point, and I would probably have checked the league table every now and then, but I would've taken a sabbatical of sorts as an active fan. But I'm a weary cnut these days. What I would've done twenty years ago, as a teenager, or even ten years ago - I can't say that with absolute certainty. Because the fandom is a very strong thing - it can make you act like a complete nutter.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that to condemn Liverpool fans - and now Arsenal fans, even before the deal is a fact - for defending the bastard is on some level to condemn the very fandom itself. See the thing? I'm not defending him at all, I hope that's clear. But I can, at least to an extent, sympathize with the fans who are stuck with him. The idiocy of being a fan, the stupid, irrational tribalism - it becomes all too glaringly obvious when the scousers stick up for someone like Suarez. But it's a universal idiocy - it's not them alone, it's just a more extreme and conspicuous version of something we all are marked by, as fans. Because these fans, the ones I'm talking about, don't really condone Suarez' behaviour - they're not people with dubious views on other cultures, or people who go in for cannibalism - they just stick blindly up for him because he's wearing a certain shirt, no other reason.
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This is a fantastic post.

Even so, some go on as if Suarez is the devil himself. If I was an Arsenal fan/Liverpool had the chance to sign him again I'd want him (and my Arsenal season ticket holding mate does). But then again, I'm not really concerned about morals or all the other cliche stuff. My concern is purely to do with output on the pitch. I understand that's not the case for everyone though.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Just to clarify a point or two: To me this would've been clear and simple. I would have gotten my coat and left. I'm sure I would've come back at some point, and I would probably have checked the league table every now and then, but I would've taken a sabbatical of sorts as an active fan. But I'm a weary cnut these days. What I would've done twenty years ago, as a teenager, or even ten years ago - I can't say that with absolute certainty. Because the fandom is a very strong thing - it can make you act like a complete nutter.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that to condemn Liverpool fans - and now Arsenal fans, even before the deal is a fact - for defending the bastard is on some level to condemn the very fandom itself. See the thing? I'm not defending him at all, I hope that's clear. But I can, at least to an extent, sympathize with the fans who are stuck with him. The idiocy of being a fan, the stupid, irrational tribalism - it becomes all too glaringly obvious when the scousers stick up for someone like Suarez. But it's a universal idiocy - it's not them alone, it's just a more extreme and conspicuous version of something we all are marked by, as fans. Because these fans, the ones I'm talking about, don't really condone Suarez' behaviour - they're not people with dubious views on other cultures, or people who go in for cannibalism - they just stick blindly up for him because he's wearing a certain shirt, no other reason.
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I agree and sympathise with Liverpool to an extent also; it's not their fault Suarez went into full cnut mode whilst at their club - who knows how we'd respond if faced with the same such conflict of conscience?!

What I cannot sympathise with though is fans of other clubs wishing that same situation upon themselves. Liverpool didn't exactly know what they were letting themselves in for, did they? There were signs that Suarez was a cnut, but as I said above, everybody deserves the benefit of the doubt and they gave that to him. There's no such doubt anymore though, there can be no mistaking the shame and embarrassment that Suarez inevitably brings with his goals, and anyone looking to sign him now will know full well what they're buying into.

I can't believe anyone would willingly go for it no matter what their situation regarding strikers. Signing Suarez would be inexcusable.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
It's a very pertinent question, mate. I don't know. But I can't think most Arsenal fans are actually happy with this. I'd be embarrassed myself, and I suspect many of them are too - but then the fandom kicks in and the rationalization begins.

To me, personally, it would have been very simple. But I'm growing more and more disillusioned with and generally tired of the whole sport, and all the circus and bollocks surrounding it, not least. So, if United had signed Suarez (or done something similar), I would have simply walked away: Taken a break, waiting for better times. I certainly wouldn't have gone on actively supporting the club, that would've been out of the question for me.
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Because they haven't won a single thing for nearly a decade and say what you want about Suarez (and I loathe him with a rarely seen passion) he is a winner.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
I'd say his whole 'the British media are out to get me' schtick at the start of the summer shows that he doesn't have any remorse, which most people consider a prerequisite for forgiveness.
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That was just a bollocks excuse invented by his agent to get him a move.

I mean, clearly he's got issues, but that 'I need to leave England' stuff means very little at the end of the day.
 
ciderman9000000 said:
Is anyone so prepared though?

We're all proud of our football clubs for reasons deeper than success on the pitch. Their club acting with dignity and integrity is important to most football supporters. Clubs such as Liverpool, United and Arsenal have long been built upon strong principles which the fans can get behind and feel passionate about. Luis Suarez though has single handedly shattered those principles at Liverpool since signing for them, he's dragged the name of the club through the dirt and turned it's supporters into a bunch of contrary apologists.

Would anyone really welcome this man into their club in the knowledge that they'd likely be opening themselves up to the same fate? I doubt that they would to be honest, and rightly so. I don't think it going over the top to suggest that most football supporters would not want the moral standing of their club (and ultimately themselves) so severely jeopardised as would be the case in the event of signing Luis Suarez.

What would be the cost of twenty-five goals and season? £40m, a series of lengthy bans, repeatedly made a laughing stock and the inevitable compete disregard for moral principle in conflict with unwavering support for the club? feck that.
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Oh, I don't know. I think they've been a bunch of apologists for a lot longer than Luis Suarez's tenure at the club. In fact, I think Luis Suarez is absolutely made for Liverpool FC - allowing them to fully indulge their rank delusion, disgusting hypocrisy, finger pointing and constant perceived victimhood to their heart's content.
 
The "bid £X and we have to tell the player of the bid and then consider it" might be the biggest waste of ink on any contract ever.

The idea that Suarez and his agents didn't know Arsenal were going to bid is just ludicrous.
 
So what the hell has changed at Arsenal that they can now make bids like this? Wenger's policy or do they just actually have funds for once?
 
duffer said:
The "bid £X and we have to tell the player of the bid and then consider it" might be the biggest waste of ink on any contract ever.

The idea that Suarez and his agents didn't know Arsenal were going to bid is just ludicrous.
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A few months back, everyone was saying that to all intents and purposes, it was a release clause.

This could go to the high court, which in a way would be rather fitting.
 
alastair said:
A few months back, everyone was saying that to all intents and purposes, it was a release clause.

This could go to the high court, which in a way would be rather fitting.
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Well, not on our end. The voices coming out of merseyside was that it was a goodwill clause and nothing more.
 
The whole moaning about the English media and them being the reason he wants to leave looks like a own goal of massive proportions now.
 
And bring it on to court - Even if the clause is valid, maybe we can examine what happened in the case of Ziege's transfer to us in similar circumstances. Was eventually settled out of court, but I imagine Arsenal will have to cough up a bit more for illegally obtaining knowledge of any release.
 
TheRisingSun said:
Oh, I don't know. I think they've been a bunch of apologists for a lot longer than Luis Suarez's tenure at the club. In fact, I think Luis Suarez is absolutely made for Liverpool FC - allowing them to fully indulge their rank delusion, disgusting hypocrisy, finger pointing and constant perceived victimhood to their heart's content.
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What the heck are you on about. You really do post some absolute tripe.

All coming from a Chelsea fan, the epitome of moral regard and perfect behaviour.
 
B20 said:
And bring it on to court - Even if the clause is valid, maybe we can examine what happened in the case of Ziege's transfer to us in similar circumstances. Was eventually settled out of court, but I imagine Arsenal will have to cough up a bit more for illegally obtaining knowledge of any release.
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Would Arsenal be breaking the law if Suarez's agent phoned them up and told then he had been release clause?
 
[quote="johnny boy, post: 13882264, member: 573that the heck are you on about. You really do post some absolute tripe.

All coming from a Chelsea fan, the epitome of moral regard and perfect behaviour.[/quote]

The delusion is widespread. See the Petr Cech thread.
 
As for the clause. Seems like Arsenal's pink pound is no good in Scouseland. :)
 
ciderman9000000 said:
Would Arsenal be breaking the law if Suarez's agent phoned them up and told then he had been release clause?
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We and Ziege both were fined for exactly that with his transfer. Boro then took it further to courts and eventually an undisclosed settlement was reached.
 
B20 said:
We and Ziege both were fined for exactly that with his transfer. Boro then took it further to courts and eventually an undisclosed settlement was reached.
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The release clause was leaked to the media months ago. Arsenal can just point to this.
 
Cina said:
So what the hell has changed at Arsenal that they can now make bids like this? Wenger's policy or do they just actually have funds for once?
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Actually have funds and a change in policy, although the latter is yet to be confirmed since we actually haven't spent big money yet. I have a horrible feeling we won't secure any of our targets.

Suarez > Real
Higuain > Napoli
Sanogo > first XI
 
Arsenal may have the funds but I'm skeptical as to their willingness to spend. The cynic in me thinks it's somewhat convenient their only targets are those likely to go elsewhere. It's easy to bid for players you're not getting. Surely if they wanted to spend money and knew they had cash to spend they'd have spent the last few months scouting and negotiating and wrapping up business early rather than getting to the end of July and competing for players who they probably know they're not very likely to get.
 
johnny boy said:
What the heck are you on about. You really do post some absolute tripe.

All coming from a Chelsea fan, the epitome of moral regard and perfect behaviour.
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We have some knobheads in our support, as everyone else does. Unlike everyone else, Liverpool fans try and position themselves as the epitome of "classy" football clubs/supporters which considering their much-vaunted 'istree is absolutely laughable. Only a club with the lack of self-awareness as Liverpool FC (you know, the ones who set English football in Europe back a generation and then tried to blame it on Chelsea) would constantly refer to their OWN fans as "classy" in the manner that you lot do.

LFC and Luis Suarez were absolutely made for each other. Blaming everyone else for their bad behaviour and misfortune in easy union.
 
Stickles said:
Arsenal may have the funds but I'm skeptical as to their willingness to spend. The cynic in me thinks it's somewhat convenient their only targets are those likely to go elsewhere. It's easy to bid for players you're not getting. Surely if they wanted to spend money and knew they had cash to spend they'd have spent the last few months scouting and negotiating and wrapping up business early rather than getting to the end of July and competing for players who they probably know they're not very likely to get.
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This is quite regular behaviour, I assure you.

We'll be signing Eduardo on loan from Shakhtar on 31st August.
 
Forget Eduardo, Aliedier (sp) is coming off a good season and would be available.
 
Stickles said:
Arsenal Manchester United may have the funds but I'm skeptical as to their willingness to spend. The cynic in me thinks it's somewhat convenient their only targets are those likely to go elsewhere. It's easy to bid for players you're not getting. Surely if they wanted to spend money and knew they had cash to spend they'd have spent the last few months scouting and negotiating and wrapping up business early rather than getting to the end of July and competing for players who they probably know they're not very likely to get.
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Would you consider that accurate as well?
 
cesc's_mullet said:
Forget Eduardo, Aliedier (sp) is coming off a good season and would be available.
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What is happening to us, mullet...when did we become such accomplished idiots in the transfer market.

I want to fast forward to September already.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Would you consider that accurate as well?
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No. United have had an entire change in management and coaching structure over the summer and a manager who until mid May wouldn't have even been thinking about players we'd be targeting. Arsenal do not have that excuse. If they have a wealth of funds and know there's a summer transfer window why the feck are they making speculative bids for players when we're approaching the end of July?

It just makes no sense. Presumably Wenger hasn't only just been told he has money to spend. So why haven't they closed down business early with players they've been tracking and working on for weeks or months before hand?
 
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