I'm a Chelsea fan, not a United fan.
Spurs XI: name 4 better Prem players in each position?
- Thread starter GlastonSpur
- Start date
I'm a Chelsea fan, not a United fan.
Well of course. If their name doesn't end with "inho" and they didn't cost a hundred million they can't be any good. Obvious innit.
I doubt that there are many players in the relegation teams that Mason outperformed last year. So much averageness in your squad.
That's cool.
I say that a fair few of your players are on par with what we already have (or minor upgrades), and say there is a few positions that just in the combined first XI needs upgrades, yet you take it as me claiming us, without the quality additions from your top players would bring, to be a top side in Europe?
Weird logic, but okay.
I don't know wh I'm supposed to give a feck about Spurs over any other team, or go into some ridiculoous detail about each team's players.
Spurs have a shout at top four this season but I'm surprised they haven't realy done much to strengthen at all. United, Arsenal, City and Chellsea all have better teams and squads on paper, Liverpool arguably too....but then this would have also have been true this time last year and Spurs SHOULD have finished above all of them.
I do think a llot of Spurs players over performed last season though. Momentum counts for a lot, especiallly in the later half of the season when some teams end up with less to play for than others.
I'd guess they might sneak in again IF they can keep up their performance levels, but I wouldn't be able to guess instead of who. There's been too many managerial and player changes elsewhere to have a clue really. There's also the fact that it is still Spurs, and they still managed to do a Spurs at the end of last season.
Spurs have a shout at top four this season but I'm surprised they haven't realy done much to strengthen at all. United, Arsenal, City and Chellsea all have better teams and squads on paper, Liverpool arguably too....but then this would have also have been true this time last year and Spurs SHOULD have finished above all of them.
I do think a llot of Spurs players over performed last season though. Momentum counts for a lot, especiallly in the later half of the season when some teams end up with less to play for than others.
I'd guess they might sneak in again IF they can keep up their performance levels, but I wouldn't be able to guess instead of who. There's been too many managerial and player changes elsewhere to have a clue really. There's also the fact that it is still Spurs, and they still managed to do a Spurs at the end of last season.
No Alli is a quality player and had a fantastic breakout season but that one season doesn't propel him to 'Would start for every team in England' status just yet.Well of course. If their name doesn't end with "inho" and they didn't cost a hundred million they can't be any good. Obvious innit.
Nothing to do with how his name sounds. I remember when Ramsey had that breakout year and that meant he would start over Lampard..
Ah, then let me re-evaluate.
I'd take Kane over Costa. Temperament being the main issue there. Batshuayi could replicate Drogba if things go well for him.
I'd definitely take Alderweireld over Cahill.
I'd take Dele Alli over the current Fabregas. Oscar too. I actually rate Oscar though.
Dembélé would have to get the nod over Matić who has lost his way.
Well, I think we should exclude players in teams such as Sunderland and Watford because they were two of the more successful teams last season.
I can only go by what you wrote, and you wrote, ".........for a top side in Europe." Maybe English isn't your first language, fair enough, but the way you wrote it clearly claims Man Utd as a top side in Europe.
English isn't my first language, but there isn't anything there that cannot be understood through the context of the post. Maybe it's your brain that is malfunctioning?
If you say so.
No it doesn't. I hope you're not an aspiring lawyer.
I'd have Kane too.
I'd take Alderweireld over Cahill too, but we're trying to bring in Koulibaly who I'd much rather have. I wouldn't replace Fabregas with Delle Alli for anything, absolutely not. Or Oscar for that matter, annoying though Oscar has been lately. As for Matic, I wouldn't give up on him just yet, just the seasaon before last he was simply the best DM in the league. Maybe he's suddenly lost his ability, but it'll take more than one bad season to convince me of that.
Chadli barely played, Mason was woeful, Wimmer did very well and Onomah played in maybe 3 games. Trippier barely played due to Walker.
Yeah though, it's such a valid argument against rating players who have played well all season, and some who have been playing in the league for numerous seasons such as Alderweireld, Kane, Eriksen, Lloris, Walker.
See, I can understand Fabregas, but this is just barmy to me. Oscar has never been as good as Alli in the league, never. Despite being older.
I agree with Matic, at his best he's an excellent DM and I wouldn't give up on him after just one poor season.
As for Koulibaly, there's absolutely nothing to suggest he's a better defender than Alderweireld. Nothing. He wasn't even better than Alderweireld in a weaker league.
To be fair, to me it just read as if he's saying that whilst some of our players may be better than theirs, he wouldn't want them because he'd rather get the very best players (e.g Pogba) so they can get back to competing with the best in Europe.
Didn't seem like he was rating United as already up there.
He's not 'considerably better' at all, not as of right now. The only two keepers who can claim to be 'considerably better' than Lloris are De Gea and Neuer. Courtois isn't in that discussion yet, not based on his Premier League form. He wasn't even considerably better when you won the league. De Gea vs Courtois isn't even a debate.
I love how you say 'Toby Alderweireld' as if he's some average defender. Zouma will do well to ever be as good as him, he's arguably the league's best defender as of now, was absolutely immaculate for us last season as well as adding 4 goals and 2 assists, and was also a powerhouse for Southampton. He's also only 27, which is relatively young for a defender.
Sure, I can think of many players I'd rather have than Walker too. That's not really the discussion here though.
Rubbish, we saw exactly how good he was in his Atletico time, and he most certainly was better than Lloris during our title season. Then again I'd probably still have Cech back over Lloris.
You love the way I say his name and you imagine some implied attack?
Zouma is going to be immense incidentally.
Rubbish, we saw exactly how good he was in his Atletico time, and he most certainly was better than Lloris during our title season. Then again I'd probably still have Cech back over Lloris.
You love the way I say his name and you imagine some implied attack?
Zouma is going to be immense incidentally.
That's your opinion, I think you could have put Lloris in that Chelsea team and he would have been just as highly rated. Seems as if you don't rate Lloris very highly though, so there's not much of a discussion to be had here.
It sounded as if you were demeaning him, apologies if that wasn't the case. Zouma is a young defender who's coming off the back of a bad injury, there are no certainties with him at all.
Well of course. If their name doesn't end with "inho" and they didn't cost a hundred million they can't be any good. Obvious innit.
How dare our average players clearly perform well above their ability, they were purchased for less than 30m, impossible!
Firstly, the "Team>All" argument is naive, we all know the Leicester win was a one in 50 or so. It was dependant on 5 bigger and better teams not being up to scratch, and Leicester having an accumulation of factors inexplicably come out in their favour.
It also seems you are suggesting the 1966 World Cup winning team didnt contain a Ballon D'or winner, among others considered some of the best players OF ALL TIME, Yes, the Team matters and has an impact, But having a team and World class players to push that team to the Elite level is always the ideal, and is why the Elite level is the Elite level. Leicester are not going to consistantly win the league and champions league are they? no Its going to the likes of Barca/Real/Bayern who have the teams and the world class players.
At no point did i say those World class players were the only thing that puts us ahead in the reckoning, infact i noted this second to Depth of squad, which neither of you even deemed to mention.
I also never said Schweinsteiger and others were world class, United havent had a World class outfield player for some time. Everybody Knew Schweinsteiger was not the player he was, but was and is a solid centre mid who can do a very good job, Di Maria was a potential world class player who did look abit on the soft side, abit erratic in his willingness to to be a team player, and seemingly only came here for cash. I said De Gea is world class, which he is, and gave reasons as to why Pogba and Ibra currently are and SHOULD be when they hit the prem, i even mentioned that it does still need to be proven in the prem. Do you two just pick one word out of posts and then insert a previously used reply?
As for Martial/Shaw v Kane/Alli, i never said Martial and Shaw were world class potential and Kane and Alli were'nt, infact i said Kane and Alli were, and could well be considered world class in a few years, but right now they are simply in the same place as Martial/Shaw with Rashford potentially moving into that bracket if he progresses more this year, and both United and Spurs have other players that could be placed there too.
My point still remains, and neither of you have stated a valid reason against it being correct at this moment in time. Spurs badly lack depth, and dont have any players currently at the World Class level. United have one nailed on in De Gea (perhaps even above that classification if you were to have one), and two others in Zlatan and Pogba who the whole footballing world (apart from you guys, who must surely be turning down management offers from Barca on a daily basis) currently consider world class players, both of whom YES need to prove that in the premier league, but both of whom have far better chances of doing that, as i noted in my post.
I just wanted to ensure he wasn't confused with all the other Alderweirelds in the league.
We've got the Premier League's top scorer who's managed 20+ back to back, a feat that some of the Premier League's best ever goalscorers haven't managed, but apparently he's not a big enough star player for some people. He might not be 'world class' (Whatever this means nowadays) but I wouldn't swap him for many players in this league, that's for sure.
I can understand the overrating of my own players - still this thread seems way too silly
I will only consider Kane from Spurs that too second to a fit Aguero.
I will only consider Kane from Spurs that too second to a fit Aguero.
It doesn't really work like that. There don't have to be 4 teams with superior players in every single position to finish ahead of you.
My Alerts tell me this was a reply to my post, however the text seems to have been removed.
As for Kane's goalscoring. He's done very well, but just having goal numbers doesn't make someone world class.
Kane Scored 25 and 1 assists in 3368 minutes at 135 mins per goal with 124 shots.
Vardy Scored 24 and 6 assists in 3139 minutes at 131 mins per goal with 93 shots.
Aguero Scored 24 and 2 assists in 2373 minutes at 99 mins per goal with 93 shots. 30% less time on the pitch as Kane by the way.
Frankly, going by stats, Vardy offered more to his team last year in pure goal/assist stats and Aguero blew them both out of the water in goals per minute on the pitch. Just one stat that highlights why Aguero is currently world class and Kane and Vardy are not.
I would say Kane is far better than Vardy, but last season his raw stats offer less. Id still take Aguero over both even if he came with a 2 month injury.
In what way do Spurs "badly lack depth"? And what is United's 2nd XI that is supposedly so much better than that of Spurs?
And if you insist on calling Pogba world class, then I would feel justified in describing Kane in just the same way. The guy has scored 59 goals for Spurs in the last two seasons - what has Pogba (not Juve) done that warrants him being more highly rated than Kane and his phenomenal goal scoring record?
As for Ibrahimovich, yes he's been world class in the past. But as I've said, at the age of 34 going on 35, and now switching to a much tougher league, I feel you are greatly exaggerating his likely impact by suggesting he'll be world class for United.
He had one top season where he broke records, at the age of 29. Kane has had two excellent seasons at the age of 23, they aren't even comparable. If Vardy does the same thing next season we can talk about it. Kane is only going to get better, how many strikers score as many as he does at 23? The more he matures, the better he'll become. I wouldn't be surprised that by the time he's 26, he'll be a genuine world class striker.
Aguero is incredible, but he's in his prime and when he's fit, easily one of the world's best strikers. Of course Kane isn't as good as Aguero, Suarez, Lewandowski etc yet, but that doesn't mean he isn't a star player, you don't need an Aguero or a Suarez to finish in the top 4 (which is our objective next season).
Also, it'd be interesting to compare Aguero and Kane's goalscoring record in big games last season, because I know for a fact that Kane scored against Manchester City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, West Ham and Southampton, some of the league's best performing/biggest sides. I know City faltered as a team in these games, but I don't know if Aguero did. I know for a fact he didn't score in either games against us.
True. But gauging how many of our rival contenders have better players in how many of the positions is still an important indicator concerning this coming season.
Nobody has disputed that Aguero is better than both Kane and Vardy. I agree. Kane is selfish, hence his high shots to goals ratio and low assist number. he needs to fix that. The new guy Janssen has already shown in pre season games that he is just the opposite. Hopefully some of that will rub off on Kane. If I was Kane's manager I would sit him down for a chat about it.
I think you'll find that for all of the top 6 teams (Spurs, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, United and Liverpool) you will struggle to find much better teams (maybe with the exception of Liverpool whose squad is a bit weaker). It's a toss really between them, and then there is Leicester and West Ham who are fairly good.
Precisely my point. Im not sure what the debate is now. I said to start Spurs are a very good team and very good players like Kane, but Dont have depth and dont have the truly world-class Aguero-like figures who can push a top four team to be a consistent challenger int he league and Champions league. You didnt seem to like this originally but now seem to be saying the same thing.
Kane is far better than Vardy, frankly i see nothing more than a mediocre speed merchant in Vardy who was made to look a lot better than he is last season by players around him and some good form.
Back to the original point, I believe United to be in a better position than Spurs right now because we both potentially have the team, we both have potential future world class players, but United have the extra benefit of players at the world class level right now, who could and should lift them above. Even if you want to debate whether Zlatan and Pogba will prove themselves in the premier league, we now have a team as you do and a keeper who can push us above you.
On top of that Depth is an issue at Spurs and isnt so much here.
Post a spurs second XI and you will have to use some frankly unknown quantities and would likely use more untested youth than we had to. We may not like them but (depending on who Jose prefers) our second XI would contain Felbows, Herrera, Lingard,Mata, Blind, Rojo, Valencia/Darmian, Memphis, Rashford, etc etc. Hell, some people would quite easily have Rooney in our second XI.
I really dont see any question in the fact Spurs lack the depth United have, and Spurs probably have less depth than the other top 5 teams they are looking to compete against. Injuries could be massively bad for spurs.
A spurs second team is not as bad as you are making out. it would include Vorm, Wimmer, Davies, Trippier, Chadli, Wanyama, Janssen, Son, Bentaleb. Some of those are as good as some of your second team.
I don't think there's a team in the league that has an Aguero level player. He's the best in the league by a mile, maybe Hazard is at that level at his best too. United have Pogba/Ibra, but neither are at the level of an Aguero in my opinion, and neither have played in the Premier League so are unproven. Kane is the league's second best striker, as far as I'm concerned.
Oh, I've never argued Spurs will be a proper league/CL contender, I thought you were saying we needed an Aguero like figure to get top 4. I don't think any Spurs fan in this thread thinks we have a good shot at the league? Clearly other teams ahead of us.
As for depth, Wanyama + Janssen helps a lot, and we're bringing in a wide player too. With those additions, it's still not the best depth in the league by any means, but it isn't crippling - especially not under a manager like Pocchetino who doesn't really rotate very much, we also have no players that fall under the 'injury prone' label.
Perhaps a Spurs second XI would be better than im assuming, but still i dont think it would be quite as good as United/City. I know hardly anything of Janssen so cant factor him in. If more are incomming as you say then you'll be alot better off, just as it stands i think your still light. Champions league games i would say also put a higher strain on a squad than Europa, which will be further hindrance to Spurs. Theres an argument to say Europa teams travel further, but id say the massive step up in quality you face in the Champions league will more than outweigh that.
I would suggest De Gea is at least Aguero level. Keepers influence often goes unappreciated, but over the last 4 seasons i would say De Gea has earned us more points than Aguero has City. De Gea has been keeping us away from bottom half of the table at times.
I would say at the moment United are a Top Four team pushing for title contention. Spurs are a Top Four team. Problem being that there are at least 5 top four teams, if that makes sense. Spurs dont just have to be a "Top Four" team, they then have to be better than at least one other "Top Four" team and any other surprise contenders who raise their game or who have a monumental season
EDIT: I would say too that where Spurs are one of 5 top four teams. The other 4 have at least one player who can at times single-handedly push the team above. United have De Gea and potentially Zlatan/Pogba. Arsenal have Sanchez and at a push Ozil. Chelsea have Hazard and maybe Costa. City have Aguero and potentially De Bruyne, outside chance of YaYa if he has one of those days. Spurs i dont think have that yet. a few are getting close but not quite there for me. Spurs rely on being a good Unit, if that doesnt work on a particular day, theres less chance of one outstanding player popping up and doing the business.
Last edited:
Agreed, but we have less injury issues than these two teams, generally. All I'm saying is our depth isn't as abysmal as being made out, not with our new signings.
De Gea probably is, you're right. I rate him as the world's second best, and I know some United fans even rate him above Neuer. I (to my shame) forgot about the keepers, but De Gea is indeed brilliant. My bad.
I'm not overrating Arsenal's players I'm simply choosing who'd get into my starting XI based on the consistency of there performances in the last 18 months, how they'd balance the line up I opted for and their overrall ability.
Shaw isn't clearly better than Monreal at all he's talented Luke is but Nacho over the last 2 seasons has been the best left-sided full back in England. Rose though was better in the second part of the season but over the last 18 months? No way.
I was tempted to choose Mahrez or Hazard instead of Alexis but again I think he's been at a more higher level than both these players for a lengthier period. Last season he missed a large chunk of the campaign but still managed 19 goals and 12 assists overrall. In my opinion he deserves a place in a EPL 11.
Xhaka hasn't played a game in this league yet Pogba rarely got much game time in England and people are putting him in their teams. I selected Xhaka due to his form last campaign for Borrussia and Switzerland and because I of his passing range which stands him out from most Defensive midfielders in the league currently.
You're massively overrating your own players, of course you are. You've got 6 of them in the starting 11. Whenever it's a close call, you've gone with an Arsenal player because of your blatant bias.
Yeah, he is. Monreal is nowhere near as good as you're making out, he's solid defensively but offers little going forward. I wouldn't swap him for Rose at all, who was better for all of last season, hence why he made the team of the year over Monreal.
Sanchez is an acceptable pick, but you think he's been at a higher level because you're an Arsenal fan. There's barely anything between him and Hazard, but Hazard at his best is the superior player.
You're comparing Pogba..to Xhaka. Really? There's not even a comparison here. Pogba's one of the world's best midfielders, hence why he's in teams. Xhaka is a promising midfielder you've picked up. He's definitely not better than Matic (despite his poor season) and there's no way you can go for him over the likes of Kante or Dier who are proven in the league. Xhaka was no better in the Bundesliga than Dier in the Premier League, just because Xhaka has more passing ability doesn't make him a better player. Dier plays his position differently.
Putting Xhaka in a Premier League 11 already is beyond barmy.
I don't rate Walker or Rose very highly.
You must rate them incredibly poorly to have them behind some on that list, in their current states. Some of them can barely run anymore.
I need know though, why Gylfi over Alli? As a Spurs fan who saw them both play for Tottenham, Gylfi doesn't have a fraction of Alli's talent, and Alli is miles ahead physically even at the age of 20.
It's not even really a competition, the only area Gylfi wins in is free kick taking.