There isn't many clubs in Europe's top leagues that have been more successful than Southampton when you consider how their squad has been gutted and their spending. They consistently lose their best players and managers, yet last season were three points off the top 4. That's sensational, they're a wonderfully run club.
Spurs XI: name 4 better Prem players in each position?
- Thread starter GlastonSpur
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There isn't many clubs in Europe's top leagues that have been more successful than Southampton when you consider how their squad has been gutted and their spending. They consistently lose their best players and managers, yet last season were three points off the top 4. That's sensational, they're a wonderfully run club.
Well since you accept that, then I don't think we need to discuss it anymore. Maybe we should have more threads on Soton then considering they have been more successful than Spurs.
Why is it so offensive to some for fans to argue that they think their team is good? I just don't understand it. Not a single Spurs fan on this forum has said we have the best team. Not a single Spurs fan has said we're going to win the league. Yet that seems to be the default, sarcasm-laden response that so many fall back on.
The reality is, what Spurs fans think and have expressed in this thread is that we have a very good young squad that will continue to grow and ultimately compete for 4th or maybe higher under an astute manager with an effective system. That's all. No greatest team in the world stuff. No "we're going to blow everyone out of the water". Simply that we're good and can continue to get better. Yet somehow that's incredibly offensive to some. So much so that the Spurs fans are dismissed as arrogant and delusional. I just don't quite grasp it....but I guess that's because I'm just so overwhelmed with delusion.
You lost the title with your best team in years...to Leicester.
And difference between Chelsea 14/15 and you last year, Hazard is easily the most talented winger in the league, why would you attack down Willian's side?
And of course European goals are relevant, if a player plays in 3 top level competitions you can take a goal/assist per game ratio from across the 3 competitions to give you some idea of their productivity. If you're going to arbitrarily exclude appearances that don't fit your views, why not compare FA Cup appearances and goals only? Maybe League Cup?
I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is in that case?
Clyne is a solid right back but hes too limited for my tastes personally. I think walker does everything he can better. Bellerin would be my choice of right back. Maybe Seamus Coleman
Sturridge is laughable - hes had one good season in ... 7 years or so in the league? And been a sick note since. He isn't even that good when he is fit.
Zlatan was better than both last season but is somewhat risky - new club, new league and sooner or later age will catch up with him.
Kane is a safe bet so i can understand people preferring him. Sturridge is the opposite of a safe bet - i'd take about half a dozen other strikers over him.
Anyway, seeing as you asked
De Gea
Bellerin, Alderweild, ... whoever, Shaw
Dier i spose
Pogba, KDB / Ozil
Mkhitaryan Aguerro Sanchez
Not that pushed on the second cb's, theres loads of good ones and its much of a muchness between them.
#6 is another thats pretty open field. I'd be more inclined to play a good ball player than Kante or Matic
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Exactly! In fact, we might as well just cancel all of Spurs matches and declare them the 5th place finisher. They'll avoid any injuries and other teams will have a free week to rest! Plus maybe then their fans will just shut the f*ck up!! I jest as well. We'll never shut yo.
Toby Alderweireld has much more ability than Smalling, in my view.
We didn't bottle the Premier League last season, Leicester were just better than us and incredibly consistent. Like I have already said, you could argue that we bottled finishing 2nd (our collapse came after Chelsea, when the title was already over) but not the title. Even then, I wouldn't really describe it as a bottle, more of a collapse due to a complete loss of motivation and the fact we had our midfield spine (Alli, Dembele) ripped out and our poor depth let us down.
Basing Kane and Alli's ability at the 'top level' off matches against Wales, Slovakia, Iceland and Russia is pushing it. Plenty of top tier players failed to perform in that tournament, you wouldn't believe Lewandowski was one of the world's best strikers from watching him for Poland. Not to mention the deficiencies in the England setup - we had our star striker taking corners and free kicks, despite being no good whatsoever at them. They play at a higher level nearly every week against international defenders.
We're certainly lacking in top level experience and it's true we don't have a genuinely 'world class player' in the squad, which of course will prevent us from challenging for the league. We've got some players in the squad who could be at that level in 2-3 years time, but we will struggle to keep hold of them at that point, as we did with Modric and Bale.
I think he is the same as Smalling defensively, but far superior on the ball and on attacking corners.
If Spurs have so many good players, how come they were beaten so easily by Leicester ?
Mate, some fans of the wealthier clubs can't stand the fact that their money-bags theory of football has been blown to bits. It's threatening to their cosy notions of a cartel of "elite" clubs.
And now that the cheque-book style of management is reaching an ever greater fever-pitch of desperation - check out the "Arms Race" thread on this forum - the reactions of these type of fans grows ever more frenzied in response to clubs like Spurs who are showing a different way forward.
Anyone for a game of straw-clutching ?
Commercial property in London is in major difficulty.
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ket-will-be-hit-by-brexit-says-property-group
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-clauses-idUKKCN0ZR18O
Why are so many pulling out of Commercial projects? You would want to be insane to buy commercial property now with the huge crash coming.
https://next.ft.com/content/123c044c-3f67-11e6-8716-a4a71e8140b0
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I really don't care what their team is called, Leicester were exceptional last season. They collected 81 points, enough to win them the league the season before.
Why attack down Lamela's side when we have the 'much better player' (your own words) in Eriksen on the left? Tying yourself in knots.
Of course they're relevant, just not in a discussion between two players who didn't play in that competition. Lamela has never played in the Champions League before. You can't hail Willian for scoring more goals in a competition Lamela never actually took part in. The league is the bread and butter that shows the true level of a player across an entire season, how you can compare it to only counting a cup competition is beyond me. Lots of people look at league stats only.
Lamela also had 6 Europa League goals. Or do they not count because the competition is of a lesser quality? Despite the fact that Willian's goals came against Dynamo Kyiv, Maccabi Tel Aviv and finally Porto, a team who went out in the round of 32 in the Europa League.
Go make a thread on Southampton then. I think they've been under appreciated so it would be good if you did.
The point at home to a poor WBA was the killer for me. You could have really turned the heat up on Leicester and gone within a point (I think) as United took points off them at OT. Then you pretty much capitulated for me.
Kane and Alli did nothing of note against poor opposition in the Euros. Don't think anyone can argue with that. Off the back of the season they had everyone expected more. That said Rose, Walker, Dier, Alli and Kane were all part of the dismal England side. It was pretty Spurs heavy.
If anything costs Spurs again it will be lack of experience and that real World Class player. Amazed it's not been addressed to be honest.
At a rough guess I say that perhaps it's because, to accompany their commercial projects, they don't have an amazing new football stadium and its associated huge waiting list of customers, nor an NFL tie-up, nor an extreme sports centre, nor a sky walk, nor a medical centre, nor an immersive cinema, nor an interactive club museum ... nor etc etc etc.
Levy's whole background is in such commercial projects. The idea that it's all going to end in financial collapse is just wishful thinking.
The reason is simple. A lot of Man Utd fans can see that spurs have slowly improved, year on year. Have been knocking on the top 4 door now for several years with the occasional "intrusion" into top 4. They see a threat looming to the "recognised top 4" and tthey don't like it. It's not a comfortable feeling. They regard Leicester as "cute" and rejoice at them winning the league because they don't think they will be near it again. However, let Leicester "intrude" into the top 4 another couple of seasons and become a real threat and see the attitude on here towards them change.
I've no idea where Spurs will finish, but the only measure I have of their quality is last season. Where they were demonstrably better than everyone in the league save Leicester and Arsenal.
We should be much better this year, but I see no reason why Spurs will be worse than last season...and they were pretty good. I'd take at least 4 of their players in our squad right now.
We should be much better this year, but I see no reason why Spurs will be worse than last season...and they were pretty good. I'd take at least 4 of their players in our squad right now.
And the value of the houses,hotel and other commercial properties that are being built in the Spurs development will fall in value. Not good news for Spurs at all.
Sure, but we weren't quite good enough, it was a poor performance but that doesn't instantly make it a bottle. I just think that across the season Leicester were better than us.
They didn't, and nobody is going to argue against that. They were woeful at the Euro's, but I don't think it means that they can't play at a higher level. I think it would be wise to wait to see how they do in the Champions League, international football can be extremely odd sometimes, and we saw how a lot of the stars performed in the Euro's.
I think Rose, Dier and Walker all performed quite well at the Euro's, by the standards of our squad. Better than a lot of the England players. Not brilliant by any means, but who is ever brilliant for England these days?
We'll steadily gain experience and I suppose Alderweireld, Vertonghen, Lloris in particular all possess it, but we could certainly do with some more calm, experienced heads - we saw that against Chelsea. The 'world class player' point is a difficult one, because due to our strategy there's no way Levy will ever purchase one, nor any guarantee we could actually attract one. We just have to hope that Kane or Alli can step up to that plate. It's risky though, because relying on young players can backfire.
This is true. My antipathy towards a team is primarily driven by how much of a threat they are to us.
Lloris (GK): DDG, Courtois, Cech,
Walker (RB): Bellerin, Antonio, Sagna, Cuadrado (under Conte)
Rose (LB): Shaw, Monreal, Azpil, Fuchs (under Ranieri)
Alderweireld & Vertonghen (CB partnership): Koscielny, Smalling, Kompany, Van Dijk (under Koeman)
Dier & Dembele (CM pairing): Kante, Xhaka, Toure/Fernandinho (under Pep), Pogba (if signed), Kirchhoff
Alli (central AM):Ozil, DeBruyne, Silva, Coutinho
Lamela (right AM): Mahrez, Henrik, Mane, Sane
Eriksen (left AM): Alexis, Hazard, Payet, Sterling
Kane (striker): Aguero, Zlatan, Vardy
Walker (RB): Bellerin, Antonio, Sagna, Cuadrado (under Conte)
Rose (LB): Shaw, Monreal, Azpil, Fuchs (under Ranieri)
Alderweireld & Vertonghen (CB partnership): Koscielny, Smalling, Kompany, Van Dijk (under Koeman)
Dier & Dembele (CM pairing): Kante, Xhaka, Toure/Fernandinho (under Pep), Pogba (if signed), Kirchhoff
Alli (central AM):Ozil, DeBruyne, Silva, Coutinho
Lamela (right AM): Mahrez, Henrik, Mane, Sane
Eriksen (left AM): Alexis, Hazard, Payet, Sterling
Kane (striker): Aguero, Zlatan, Vardy
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Personally I'm not offended, or even annoyed.
I disagree a bit but thats about it. Dont think anyone is offended or annoyed (except by Glaston who annoys people for whatever reason).
I also expect Mkhitaryan, Pogba and Zlatan to improve us big time and dont see why thats so illogical.
Expected a lot more from schweinsteiger and schneiderlin last season and was pretty disappointed in both too, so ill give you that
(or i'll give whoever said all united fans are bored of their old toys and are over hyping the new shinies that). but again i dont think thats illogical. #
Schneiderlin is just largely unsuited to us imo, I think schweinsteiger has more to offer but doesn't look like he'll be given a chance to
What else ... your young team improving - I'm always a bit wary of making that assumption. Young players in my experience dont develop in a straight line for lack of a better word.
They often drop a level or jump up 5 levels and explode a bit.
Personally I'm expecting a quieter season for martial this year for example. Teams will be more familiar and will have a couple of games under their belt against him, it'll be a hard season for him.
You'll compete for 4th but its hard to imagine you finishing above arsenal tbf. Personally I think leicester will finish above you too so I dont see you finishing top 4.
Neither Lamela or Willian are all that. I'll probably take Lamela though since he's younger & has higher potential. Willian is the most overrated player in the League after Coutinho
...
Brexit will probably only have marginal impact, because offset against it is the fact that much of the area around the stadium is being re-developed through new investment also being made by TfL, Network Rail and Haringey Council. In other words, this part of London will become more des-res than before..
Brexit will probably only have marginal impact, because offset against it is the fact that much of the area around the stadium is being re-developed through new investment also being made by TfL, Network Rail and Haringey Council. In other words, this part of London will become more des-res than before..
Arsenal is always better than Spurs. So, what would be Arsenal - SPurs combined Best XI?
Pretty much spot on apart from Vardy, Sterling (Martial) and Kirchoff.
Vertonghen, Lamela, Dembele and Rose are grossly overrated. Eriksen is also a fair weather player.
I'd probably just stick spurs players in an arsenal shirt basically.
Seems a bit of a curse with no real logic to me.
All Spurs fans are annoying. Always have been.
Lloris, Bellerin, Alderweireld, Koscielny, Rose, Dier, Alli, Ozil, Kane, Sanchez.
Could easily argue Cech over Lloris or Monreal over Rose, that's just personal preference. Not much between Walker and Bellerin either, at the moment. I think we have an overall more balanced side, but they have better stars in Sanchez and Ozil. There's really not much in it. There's also a shout for Ramsey to start if he can continue his Wales form, but he was very poor last season for Arsenal.
They finished 1 point ahead of us last season, and that was due to our collapse after Chelsea. I think we were clearly the better side, just let emotions get the better of us due to our inexperience. We also have MUCH worse depth, hence our collapse after Alli and Dembele were missing. We have a very good starting 11 but a rather thin squad, although Janssen and Wanyama will help that, as well as another wide player.
You know, it's really surprising to me that you don't like us. Because your opinions on our players in this thread have been really balanced.
There are only 2-3 Spuds that have any chance at getting into our starting XI- Alderweireld, Kane and Eriksen (AMR)
Don't worry the Chinese are coming. And I'm not joking. We put our deposit down on a new apartment in London (ready in 2018) before Brexit, after the referendum our agent here (Shanghai) told us residential sales in the UK to Chinese here in Shanghai went up 38% in the following week ! You just know commercial will follow as soon as the price hits an acceptable level, no crash, just a change of ownership on the way, as happens with all RE markets eventually.
No crash is wishful thinking in the extreme. Property is always on a boom bust cycle in London. We are in the denial phase.
It's a huge bubble. Has to pop sooner or later.
I think prices will fall 30-50%.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/societe-ge...london-brexit-will-trigger-correction-1571240
How has Kane been in pre-season games for Spurs? Was god-awful in the Euro's, looked like he needed a season off not a couple weeks.
Avoiding as much bias as possible
United i expect to be top four, wherein depends on how good the new and young players perform, but i cant see that team getting less than 4th even if they don't get it together right away.
Spurs i see 5th, challenging 4th if they can get lucky and steer clear of injuries again.
The difference i think lies is depth and those 3 World class players we now have that i don't think Spurs do. Spurs have little depth and injuries could massively hamper their season. United may hate seeing Fellaini on the pitch, but he provides depth, as do quite a few others. And while spurs have a few very good players, i think De Gea>Zlatan>Pogba (in that order) can potentially push us up a level.
De Gea is just De Gea, people may discuss "the best" between him, Neuer and others, but simply put i don't think even Neuer comes close to providing the raw points that De Gea does. All round game, Neuer may offer enough to be level, but simply stopping a ridiculous amount of chances that SHOULD be goals, De Gea is a step above.
Zlatan because he looks built for this league, he isn't slow, he's massive, got good feet and a decent brain too. And if there's anyone in world football who is likely to not have a problem adapting to a new league, its the guy who goes to new leagues and wins them in his first season for fun.
Pogba, World Class at this moment, looks for all the world like he should carry on in that once he hits the Prem again, but a small chance it doesn't quite work right away, but again, he's played in England before, knows a few of the players already, he shouldn't have trouble fitting in. Still has a slight question mark and maybe needs to prove he is world class in the Prem, but im not overly worried he wont.
Spurs lack that couple World Class players, same as United have the last few years, that can nudge them into the Elite bracket. Lloris is a very good keeper, Kane, Eriksen, Alli, Dier all could take another step up in progression but still i think need more time to be World class, if they're going to get there. The defence looks solid but nothing major, was impressed with Rose and Walker in the Euro's, Dembele seems to have his days, sometimes looks unstoppable, others looks dogshit. Lamela i think is working his arse off to do a job for Pochettino, but could be bettered.
I would like to see United and Spurs both make top four (United ahead obviously), but i just dont see City and Chelsea having bad seasons again, certainly not City. Arsenal could be a target, if they don't buy a Striker again. They will likely continue to do well with their pretty play against lower teams, before being mashed up for the most part by the better teams, because they dont have a really good striker and if anybody closes them down and sticks some tackles in, they often fall to pieces. But i just dont know how long even Arsenal fans will put up with Wenger/the club not buying a striker. At some point the delusion bubble has to burst and they have to say no more.
Avoiding as much bias as possible
United i expect to be top four, wherein depends on how good the new and young players perform, but i cant see that team getting less than 4th even if they don't get it together right away.
Spurs i see 5th, challenging 4th if they can get lucky and steer clear of injuries again.
The difference i think lies is depth and those 3 World class players we now have that i don't think Spurs do. Spurs have little depth and injuries could massively hamper their season. United may hate seeing Fellaini on the pitch, but he provides depth, as do quite a few others. And while spurs have a few very good players, i think De Gea>Zlatan>Pogba (in that order) can potentially push us up a level.
De Gea is just De Gea, people may discuss "the best" between him, Neuer and others, but simply put i don't think even Neuer comes close to providing the raw points that De Gea does. All round game, Neuer may offer enough to be level, but simply stopping a ridiculous amount of chances that SHOULD be goals, De Gea is a step above.
Zlatan because he looks built for this league, he isn't slow, he's massive, got good feet and a decent brain too. And if there's anyone in world football who is likely to not have a problem adapting to a new league, its the guy who goes to new leagues and wins them in his first season for fun.
Pogba, World Class at this moment, looks for all the world like he should carry on in that once he hits the Prem again, but a small chance it doesn't quite work right away, but again, he's played in England before, knows a few of the players already, he shouldn't have trouble fitting in. Still has a slight question mark and maybe needs to prove he is world class in the Prem, but im not overly worried he wont.
Spurs lack that couple World Class players, same as United have the last few years, that can nudge them into the Elite bracket. Lloris is a very good keeper, Kane, Eriksen, Alli, Dier all could take another step up in progression but still i think need more time to be World class, if they're going to get there. The defence looks solid but nothing major, was impressed with Rose and Walker in the Euro's, Dembele seems to have his days, sometimes looks unstoppable, others looks dogshit. Lamela i think is working his arse off to do a job for Pochettino, but could be bettered.
I would like to see United and Spurs both make top four (United ahead obviously), but i just dont see City and Chelsea having bad seasons again, certainly not City. Arsenal could be a target, if they don't buy a Striker again. They will likely continue to do well with their pretty play against lower teams, before being mashed up for the most part by the better teams, because they dont have a really good striker and if anybody closes them down and sticks some tackles in, they often fall to pieces. But i just dont know how long even Arsenal fans will put up with Wenger/the club not buying a striker. At some point the delusion bubble has to burst and they have to say no more.
Dier walks in to your side, you've been crying out for a proper DM for years and he's better than Coquelin. Do you honestly believe that Rose/Lloris don't stand a chance of getting in to your side? Lloris and Cech are very close and Monreal was good last season, but going forward he's nothing compared to Rose, who was in the team of the year for a reason. Alli would obviously have a chance at getting in too, in favour of Ramsey/Elneny/Cazorla. He's in much better form than any of those.
It's funny that you think only 2-3 players would get in to your side, yet we finished a solitary point behind you last season and that's despite you being the most settled team/starting 11 in the league at the beginning and despite our collapse at the end when we had nothing really to play for. Also despite the fact that in terms of squad depth, we were incredibly poor and you could see that at the end of the season our players were knackered.
1) never said Valencia will himself improve much more than the two players, said that he will improve the squad as a whole as last year we mostly played with dodgy Darmian and Varela, Rose and Walker will have another season under their belt but you can see clearly they are playing at their potential.. the will not get significantly better from last season while Valencia under Jose will improve himself and be a boost over Darmian. that's what I meant..I've isolated the above phrases to show the biased points in your post.
1) Rose and Walker have "not much space to improve", yet Valencia, who is 31 years old (5 years older than either Walker or Rose), can apparently improve to be as good as them
2) "Smalling can easily match Alderweireld". Well, maybe, but he's yet to do so, and "can" doesn't necessarily mean "will".
3) "Kane ... not making huge steps"Well, I guess so ... unless winning the Golden Boot and scoring 59 goals in the last two seasons counts as "not making huge steps"
4) "Ibra .... he's not going to score less than Kane". Want to bet?
5) Mata is "comfortably on par or better than [Eriksen]". Last season Eriksen in the league had 6 goals and 13 assists. Mata in the league had 6 goals and only 5 assists in almost the same amount of playing time. His stats rating on Who Scored was 6.8 compared to Eriksen's 7.45.
2) Smalling was playing alone in diorganized defence while Alderweireld had all the time to settle and make a great pernership with his fellow players with Dier sweeping around. Alderweireld, Koscielny and Smalling are the best centerbacks in the premier league, there is nothing much between them and if you claim that Alderweireld is better than you're just deluded, we will see again next year when we play more compact football.. but it's usually easier to paly with one strictly defensive midfielder infront and players who start every week and make some sort of partnership..
3) You understand feck all what I said, Kane already made huge steps in his career but it's fair to say that he will find it difficult to elevate his performances like he did past two years, noone is fecking taking away his goals from him, we are talking about next season. It is also fair to say he didn't make HUGE step forward last season from the year before
4) what to say, I am sure he will not outscore him by huge number of goals 5 in the league.. he will also not feature in every game like Kane, he will be rotated, subbed late in the game as he's 35. Goals per minute ratio might tell different story..
5) Mata is comfortably better than Eriksen in a functional team, Kane in our team last season would score half as many goals... He will not probably be better statistically again as there is sadly rooney to feature instead but ability wise he's comfortably better footballer..
6) as I said having as dreadful season as the last one and finishing only 4 points behind Spurs gives me so much confidence that with finally world class manager and few world class acquisitions in Ibra/Micky/Pogba we finish comfortably higher than Spurs, you will not make top4 and you can bet..
You are talking a strawman. I said only those 2-3 get into our starting XI, not get into our entire squad.
For Dier, I guess you forgot we signed Xhaka who is hands down better all around than Dier. Cech is better than Lloris until Lloris proves otherwise. Monreal has been better than Rose the last few years. And Delle is so overrated its silly. Yes he had a little purple patch but he hasn't shown he is as good as Ramsey at his best at all.