Very true.
Solskjaer's legacy and his future
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Very true.
Oh, come on. That's just over the top. How the feck is consecutive third and second place finishes, with a record-breaking winning streak, a record-breaking undefeated on the road streak and a 28-game unbeaten streak "abject failure". Also, re the Europa League: Mourinho won one, OGS were a couple of penalties in an 11-round penalty shootout away from winning one. Is that the difference between success and "abject failure"?
It came apart and he clearly wasn't able to overcome whatever it is that's eating us this season, but for most of his tenure we were a top team in the league. So let's keep some perspective here.
The fact you're having to use unbeaten streaks and finals losses to inflate his resume says it all. Let's take a count. Jose finished 2nd, actually won said trophy, lost an FA cup final and was considered a failure so how is Ole anything more than a failure as well? Are those unbeaten streaks really that valuable?
And yet after we finished 2nd and 3rd - consecutive top 4 finishes in PL for the 1st time since SAF we played like shit and so disorganized. Something didn't add up.
This is just a holding thread until the resident crybabies can turn their teary-eyed attentions onto Rangnick.
or till Ole gets a new gig so the fanatics that put his welfare ahead of the club's can follow him to his new club. God knows this place doesn't need any more sentimental fools.
Dont worry @justsomebloke this isn't referring to you, you're a good poster imo.
Unbeaten streaks are only actually of any value if they lead to a trophy. I think everybody is in agreement with that. The reason that they are being mentioned by anyone is because they are a valid counter-argument to the OTT criticisms that are constantly levelled at Ole.
When people say that Ole's time as manager will ultimately be seen as unsuccessful, then that is a fair position to take. When people continue to go overboard with the 'abject failure' 'zero tactical acumen' 'worst PL manager' etc then this is where things such as the unbeaten runs are bought into the argument, because in a sensible world those 'achievements' should really be enough to put those types of accusations to bed.
Out of 4 managers that managed us since Fergie he ranked 3rd for me.
To me a failure is not defined by trophy or league position alone. Jose finished 2nd and I didnt like that shit on a stick football, same thing with Ole in his last 1-2 years. It should be defined as how close the manager is to getting the players to perform, which ultimately is about bringing the best out of them. When it happens, the success tends to follow anyway. Thats why Sir Alex was so succesful and respectable, he managed to bring the best out of what he had. Do you really believe this squad isnt capable of playing a decent football just because we have McTomminay in midfield? SAF used to have fecking Cleverley there and Ando that couldnt run for more than 60 mins and we were not disorganized.
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So true.
It’s fascinating that the fans are still so polarized about him. It’s a reflection of our society, I suppose. Can’t we just all agree that Ole was good at some things, bad at others, and ultimately not good enough? I suppose the only way to get noticed in this world is to have an insane, frothing at the mouth opinion, completely devoid of nuance.
Here, let me try it: OLE GUNNAR SOLSKJAER WAS THE BEST MANAGER IN THE HISTORY OF MAN UNITED!!!!… after SAF.
Which is absolutely no one on this forum.
Yeah, it just means that he wasn't able to take the final step. Doesn't mean he's tactically shite or worst PL manager.
Everything doesn't need to be at either end of the tail of a bell curve. Most things lie between the tails including how good Ole was as a manager. Not good enough to win the league, but not that bad as some people claim.
“Abject” was probably over the top to be fair. Failure is still an appropriate term for Ole’s managerial legacy though in my opinion. “Consecutive third and second place finishes” don’t mean too much when you come apart so soon afterwards, like Mourinho who also consecutively qualified for the Champions League. The unbeaten (not winning) away streak had too many draws- this period dropped us out of contention with City last season. I take a dim view of last season’s European campaign not just because of the final, but because it came after failing to get out of our Champions League group. We also had 120 minutes to win it before it went to pens.
When Mourinho won it, he was in his first season, and started from the EL group stage. Mourinho’s first season would’ve been a huge failure had he not won it, League Cup or not. I found it quite funny and relieving that the final was the most comfortable of our knockout games, maybe apart from the round of 32.
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Solskjaers Legacy
Seeing Dan James everyday on my Man Utd calendar for December.
Seeing Dan James everyday on my Man Utd calendar for December.
FfsSolskjaers Legacy
Seeing Dan James everyday on my Man Utd calendar for December.
Comments from Cardiff fans made me laugh
To me, his legacy is not a good one.
Ir represents lots of failings, which with all the resources available at OT demonstrates his own limitations.
Lack of fitness.
Awful tactics.
Poor discipline.
Lack of an overall strategy.
Poor leadership.
Inept coaching.
In truth, he was never going to be able to complete with the elite coaches in the PL. Simply because he is not an elite coach.
His true test will come with his next job, where he will be working with bang average players and more limited resources. He is a bang average coach so will find his true level.
Of the 4 post Sir Alex Ferguson, he is easily the most limited in terms of real ability.
Ir represents lots of failings, which with all the resources available at OT demonstrates his own limitations.
Lack of fitness.
Awful tactics.
Poor discipline.
Lack of an overall strategy.
Poor leadership.
Inept coaching.
In truth, he was never going to be able to complete with the elite coaches in the PL. Simply because he is not an elite coach.
His true test will come with his next job, where he will be working with bang average players and more limited resources. He is a bang average coach so will find his true level.
Of the 4 post Sir Alex Ferguson, he is easily the most limited in terms of real ability.
Bang on.
I feel had he left after the europa final loss, many would have looked it differently. I don't think he was an outright failure but the guy was made to overstay as the manager. Should never have been given the extension.
Despite that, he had a more positive impact on the club than his predecessors.
He achieved what he was employed to do; stabilise the club up after Jose did everything in his power to systematically dismantle it. It's not his fault the board delayed his departure. Had he been dismissed after the Liverpool game, when most would agree was the right time to do it, we'd be singing his praises right about now.
His status as a United legend is still firmly intact.
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I don't know how people find it in their hearts to lament Ole getting disrespected while disrespecting previous managers this badly. I wasn't even a Jose cultist but he left a squad that came 2nd to one of the most dominant title sides in pl history, made a cup final, actually won trophies and when he was finally sacked left us higher on the table than where Ole left us. Yet it's so casually stated that he was worse than Ole.
Ole's stabilisation project also ended when he became full time manager, second season max. He was here for 3 years because people told us he needed time to win. The most frequently cited comparisons to Klopp and Fergie were in regards to winning trophies not a 3 year stabilisation project that would end with nothing to show for. Nobody planned to go 3 years winning nothing if there was no light at the end of the tunnel.
What relevance does this even have? So if he'd won one more game and had us in 6th like Jose he'd have done a much better job?
It's Xmas take a day off.
Not sure are some people trolling in this thread or what, imagine thinking its some achievement being less toxic than that classless cnut.
I'd hazard to guess all the other things in that sentence is where the good job came from and that part was challenging the notion Jose left us in a worse place. Plus you're also on here posting on xmas so did your reading comprehension take a day off?
What relevance does this even have? So if he'd won one more game and had us in 6th like Jose he'd have done a much better job?
It's Xmas take a day off.
Jose's last United Xi was: DDG, Dalot, Lindelof, Smalling, Darmian; Herrera, Matic; Rashford, Lingard, Young, Lukaku.
This is the strongest team we can put out today (IMO): DDG, Shaw, Varane, Maguire, AWB, Mctominay, Fred, Bruno, Sancho, Rashford, Ronaldo.
If I was a betting man, I'd place the entire contents of my bank account (about 4 quid at the minute) on the team Ole left behind to run proverbial rings around Jose's team. It wouldn't even be close if we're being strictly honest.
We won't even bother comparing Ole's side to LVG's because LVG is a decent guy and doesn't deserve the ridicule. He also introduced Rashford at a time and place where few managers would have the balls to do so, plus he brought Shaw to the club.
Ole is a rank amateur by comparison to LVG and Jose, yet he left the club with a better squad than both of those giants of the game. How did that happen?
Oh come on. Comparing Jose's last 11 to Ole's strongest 11 to conveniently omit player's from Jose's strongest xi. You even used players that Jose brought under Ole's 11 and players that weren't even regulars under either manager. What exactly was the criteria and why not use the same one for both? The team that started in his final match are clearly not a reflection of the state of the squad he left.
So last XI vs strongest XI iyo, thats what you comparing, i mean what
. Also what you mean how, he spend money and added players to others, others that were either bought and developed/gave a chance by other managers. DDG - SAF, Shaw & Rashford - LvG, Fred, McT & how things look now Dalot > AWB - classless cnut JM.I was going with the side Jose left the club with, not his overall best eleven. You could probably throw Pogba into that side, but it wouldn't make much difference as he was still here when Ole left and still underperforming. Probably worth pointing out that Pogba doesn't make our best eleven today.
Let's be honest, mate, it doesn't take a football analyst to recognize the side Ole left behind is infinitely better than the one left behind by Jose. There's no shame in admitting it despite how you feel about either of them.
So last XI vs strongest XI iyo, thats what you comparing, i mean what
I don't mean to cause offence, but I'm not sure what you're attempting to say mate.
Good one. First comparing last eleven of toxic one with strongest XI in your opinion to reinforce your stance, which is laughable and then asking how did Ole leave a stronger squad. Simple, he spent money on players and added them to 5-6 players before him.
Dunno what kind of argument is that.
Okay, I see, apologies dude.
From the squad Ole inherited from Jose, only DDG, Shaw, Mctominay, Fred and Rashford make the starting eleven today (IMO). Of those 5, DDG, Shaw and Rashford were brought/promoted by LVG so Jose takes no credit for them. Mctominay and Fred are all Jose, though. It's probably fair to say that the majority of United fans wouldn't be too displeased if either of those players left the club.
It's entirely possible that come the close of this summers transfer window, nothing of Jose will remain at the club. Almost as if he never existed as a United manager.
Well doubt McT and Fred will be sold, probably moved on the bench, if we shop proper for midfielders, so yes, that would be zero players from era of toxic one. Also how things are looking, Dalot will get a nod over AWB under RR, God knows who will be starting RB under new manager, others from Ole side, depends who you ask, is brick head good buy or not, Varane and Sancho early to say, Bruno good and Ronaldo certainly aint negative.
They're tying themselves up in knots mate.
First, it was this squad is amazing, the manager is severely underperforming and needs to go/feck off/*insert random insult here*. Now, it's that the squad that was supposedly let down by the last guy isn't good enough and his rebuild that he absolutely did, wasn't actually that good. In which case, doesn't that mean the last guy actually did a good job(?)
Colour me confused
They're tying themselves up in knots mate.
First, it was this squad is amazing, the manager is severely underperforming and needs to go/feck off/*insert random insult here*. Now, it's that the squad that was supposedly let down by the last guy isn't good enough and his rebuild that he absolutely did, wasn't actually that good. In which case, doesn't that mean the last guy actually did a good job(?)
Colour me confused
Who is saying that squad was great before Ole sacking and now its not?
That was not what he was employed to do. He wasn't hired as a DOF. He was hired as a manager, this insistence on judging the manager of Manchester United as a DOF just to make him look better than he was, baffles me. If the intention was to just have someone who would get everyone back on board and happy etc. they could have hired anyone that had some sort of connection to the club. He was hired to win trophies and he failed miserably.
I'd also argue, his transfer record was very hit and miss too, especially given how large a budget he was given.
There's simply no tangible proof that this squad now is better than the one Mourinho left.
They're tying themselves up in knots mate.
First, it was this squad is amazing, the manager is severely underperforming and needs to go/feck off/*insert random insult here*. Now, it's that the squad that was supposedly let down by the last guy isn't good enough and his rebuild that he absolutely did, wasn't actually that good. In which case, doesn't that mean the last guy actually did a good job(?)
Colour me confused
Think you just about nailed it.
But it is, though. It just is.
In my view the quality of players signed should be weigted a lot less when judging a manager in post-SAF era. By all indications, we have a transfer committee with manager being only one of the voices. There are plenty of players we targeted under different managers like Herrera, Maguire, Varane etc. Sure there were definite "LvG signings" or "Jose signings", but can somebody name a signing under Ole that was (a) definitely "his" signing, I.e. the fact that Ole was our manager contributed to the probability of us signing him either through his advocacy or connections - like Ibra, Depay, Blind for Jose/LvG and most importantly (b) was successful. Because only if we have (a) and (b) then Ole can get significant credit.
I think (outside of obvious "his" signings) the manager should be judged more on things like how he uses players, how they develop under him, youth promotion, style of play, tactics and team selection, since it is down either by him directly or by the staff who are his direct subordinates. But the part of our fanbase that is relatively more positive towards his reign tends to view squad quality as one of the primary factors in judging the manager. No wonder - Ole ultimately fell short significantly in basically all other respects, and if one (correctly in my view) weights players recruitment less in the assessment - Ole does not have much to stand on.
My take is that our recruitment improved in Ole era somewhat, albeit remained subpar (just think of how much lauded first summer window under Ole looks like now). So there is some limited amount of credit that can go around, but part of the improvement is likely due to other members of transfer committee making better decisions and part to sheer circumstances - like Varane and Ronaldo who became available - and we would have brought them under any other manger). Some credit probably goes to Ole, sure, but really in the end quite small and this should be an afterthought in his assessment with a small weight rather than one of the main things.
I think (outside of obvious "his" signings) the manager should be judged more on things like how he uses players, how they develop under him, youth promotion, style of play, tactics and team selection, since it is down either by him directly or by the staff who are his direct subordinates. But the part of our fanbase that is relatively more positive towards his reign tends to view squad quality as one of the primary factors in judging the manager. No wonder - Ole ultimately fell short significantly in basically all other respects, and if one (correctly in my view) weights players recruitment less in the assessment - Ole does not have much to stand on.
My take is that our recruitment improved in Ole era somewhat, albeit remained subpar (just think of how much lauded first summer window under Ole looks like now). So there is some limited amount of credit that can go around, but part of the improvement is likely due to other members of transfer committee making better decisions and part to sheer circumstances - like Varane and Ronaldo who became available - and we would have brought them under any other manger). Some credit probably goes to Ole, sure, but really in the end quite small and this should be an afterthought in his assessment with a small weight rather than one of the main things.
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Quite simple for me, as a player I don't think it needs further comments. He is a legend for our club. As a manager though, I would define it as:
"At a time when the club had lost its way, relations between players and existing manager were fractured and our preferred style of play was clearly out the window, Ole came in, removed a lot of deadwood, got the players believing in themselves again, brought in some great players in the transfer windows and restored some optimism around the place. Regardless of how it ended, he did his job, he turned things around and I'm proud of what he achieved."
"At a time when the club had lost its way, relations between players and existing manager were fractured and our preferred style of play was clearly out the window, Ole came in, removed a lot of deadwood, got the players believing in themselves again, brought in some great players in the transfer windows and restored some optimism around the place. Regardless of how it ended, he did his job, he turned things around and I'm proud of what he achieved."