Donny Van De Beek is that you?
Solskjaer's legacy and his future
- Thread starter Skills
- Start date
Donny Van De Beek is that you?
Are you using player performance threads here as proof of anything? Hmmm solid.
I honestly can no longer tell who has the worse online fans anymore.
Arsenal or United.
The mans gone, bottomline is he came in during a desperate time for United and improved expectations. It would've been very easy to slip into instability in league position, up until this season he done well.
His legacy is he done well, not great as a manager. Let it go the man's gone.
Reading through some of these I actually think our online fans our worse than Arsenal.
Arsenal or United.
The mans gone, bottomline is he came in during a desperate time for United and improved expectations. It would've been very easy to slip into instability in league position, up until this season he done well.
His legacy is he done well, not great as a manager. Let it go the man's gone.
Reading through some of these I actually think our online fans our worse than Arsenal.
Just to clarify, he's gone?
Hugs and smiles
For the rest he has been the worst epl manager of all times, after de boer
For the rest he has been the worst epl manager of all times, after de boer
Palace would have turned us over, no doubt about that. And after the game we'd have been told that we needed to 'find a bit of magic' or some utter shite.
I agree with you. It is time these kinds of threads be closed.
His legacy as a player is great. His legacy as a manager it is best we forget that he ever was the Manager. That is the best way for his legacy as a player to be intact.
It's another example of how you can't really blag at management these days. I'm not really sure you ever could but today you certainly cannot just bring to the table soundbites and platitudes. For example it's perfectly fine to talk about wanting your side to respond like a 'wounded animal' in the next game following defeat, but it's all meaningless unless you know how to achieve it. You could give me 11 players and I could tell you I want them to play like the love children of the Brazil 1970 and Barcelona 2011 who each discover they have two dicks the morning of the game, but I wouldn't have a fecking clue how to achieve it either.
I don't think it's about experience necessarily either. There are players who go into management and immediately become a success. But you can't have what Ole appeared to which is an apparent complete ambivalence to how the team play. You need to know what you want to do (and hopefully why and how). That doesn't mean you won't be a complete failure but at least you'll fail based on trying to do something. For the life of me I never saw what he was ever trying to do at any point. It genuinely was as if in the 7 days before the match the lads ran around cones and got told 'let's produce magic, boys' 30 minutes before kick off.
I don't think it's about experience necessarily either. There are players who go into management and immediately become a success. But you can't have what Ole appeared to which is an apparent complete ambivalence to how the team play. You need to know what you want to do (and hopefully why and how). That doesn't mean you won't be a complete failure but at least you'll fail based on trying to do something. For the life of me I never saw what he was ever trying to do at any point. It genuinely was as if in the 7 days before the match the lads ran around cones and got told 'let's produce magic, boys' 30 minutes before kick off.
Last edited:
Bitterness clouds judgement and reinstates bias. I think you are right. We've become disillusioned and highly reactive as a fan base. Some of it is justifiable but often it goes way over the top.
if you ask me dogs get treated very well… so maybe that was the problem with ole, we treated him like a dog and not a person who was given the job of manager of Man Utd with all the expectations and money involved
solskjaer will always be a hero. his managerial time at us isnt has bad as you thing. he got us playing football after jose! he gave kids a chance! majority of his signings were ok. he got the feel good factor back for a while. we improved oved every season. unfortunately he couldnt take us any further. I and along with many red will always love and thank him.
It’s time to let it go, but Ole’s legacy will not improve as time goes on. We have an incredible squad, but it severely underperformed and got humiliated more than once.
It’s best to forget this legacy.
It’s best to forget this legacy.
never ever forget oles legacy!!!!!
Nope. We got twonked 5-0 by Liverpool and are on an embarrassing trophyless spell. The subjective feel good factor people speak of is just their inner loyalty to the man, I'm sure even Jose fans felt the same. The period wasn't objectively productive nor subjectively fun for those who didn't care or were indifferent to who the manager was. Give that tenure to anyone else and it would be almost universally considered a disastrous waste of time. 3 years of "rome wasn't built in a day" just to end up sacked with no rome. What was it all for? We even ended up worse on the table than Jose's final season so where's the progress?
Ole will remain one of my favourite United players ever but Ole the manager is one to not only forget but also regret.
Last edited:
Here's the problem. Some of us thinks differently. Legend aside we're wasteful, embarassing on the field, and spent 3 years in limbo stunting players development, with the team more unbalanced than ever and filled with even more deadwoods in maguire, awb, mct, amad etc with shaw getting worse this year, rashford getting worse as years go by, martial being martial we're actually back to square one.
He doesnt take us as far as he can, he took us 400m and 3 years backward.
We will need another 200-300m to fix the holes in this squad.
I agree with most of your criticism on Ole and I applaud your stamina to continually balance out, the generous benefit of the doubt he is getting from people who believe he did an 'acceptable' job. However, I think you're probably a bit too eager to write off the players we have. There are more than a few on really poor form but let's see how they'll do under a manager that actually knows how to coach. I'll put it down as your passion for now!
I think the jury is well decided on awb and Maguire
They might do the job adequately under the new management. But no way they're worth their price tag. And here's the bigger issue. If we want to compete we need better than just functioning player. We need players that are statistically better than 90% of the rest to the very least. That still make them the worst out of top 3-4 teams.
AWB and Maguire works if top 4 is our aim but to really push the league or god forbid win it we need better player.
So yes.. in the grand scheme of things they're just deadwoods that needs to be replaced.
Ditto rashford and shaw and the rest. At their best form they're just par to push for liverpool, city. They really need to be at their best for 38 games, which is a big ask.
You're being a bit harsh on the deadwood argument but the fact remains: Ole is a monumentally shit manager and I personally think he was worse than Moyes all things considered. Objectively speaking, he did close to feck all aside from signing Bruno and making Shaw one of the best fullbacks in the world for a year. Even the whole 'brought in stability' narrative is overrated, in my opinion -- the much-lauded run of wins when he first became interim was partly down to the sheer sense of respite the players felt from Mourinho leaving the club.
And I'm also not ashamed to say that despite everything he did as a player for us, because of his abject shortcomings as a manager his overall legacy is tainted a bit for me, though I understand the majority probably doesn't share this sentiment.
So? Is Lukaku worth his price tag? Saul even on Loan? Hell even if it isn't Tuchel's, Havertz has good games covered with average, werner is horrible for Chelsea.
What about Grealish?
Ake?
Benjamin Mendy?
Sane?
Naby keita? 50 something million
Chamberlain for 35 mil
Jota for me isn't worth 45mil.
Thiago hasn't been worth 28 mil.
People acting like Maguire and wan bissaka is some sort of signing that other clubs don't do- never mind that atleast some of those players have had more just good game where they can improve on when coming off or form.
Ole did well trying to help us move forward to players like Sancho, Ronaldo, Varane, Maguire, Telles, AWB, VDB and sorting out shit like Fellaini, Herrera, Ashley Young, Sanchez, Lukaku etc.
How can people hate someone so much that they don't see the difference between the first group of players and the second.
Spot on. some of our so-called fans are so cringeworthy in their bias.
His footballing performances in the first 3 years was good but not great. Obviously, it all went to pot in the last few weeks. But up until then, things were looking up.
Put it this way: since Fergie retired, this was the first time that anybody ever seriously considered us contenders for the PL or CL. If you can't at least give Solksjaer credit for that, it says more about you than it does about him.
So his legacy is going to be mostly positive. The work he did in resetting the dressing room culture, the youth players he nurtured, the quality of signings he made, and the sense of togetherness he fostered were all really good. Ole's successors are going to massively benefit from the foundations he left behind, in a way that none of our other managers can say they left things at Old Trafford.
Put it this way: since Fergie retired, this was the first time that anybody ever seriously considered us contenders for the PL or CL. If you can't at least give Solksjaer credit for that, it says more about you than it does about him.
So his legacy is going to be mostly positive. The work he did in resetting the dressing room culture, the youth players he nurtured, the quality of signings he made, and the sense of togetherness he fostered were all really good. Ole's successors are going to massively benefit from the foundations he left behind, in a way that none of our other managers can say they left things at Old Trafford.
Some might argue that this team is desperate for a player like Herrera, and before we got CR everyone and their cat could see that we needed a striker (Lukaku).
I agree with this. Some say his legacy would live on as he left the club in a better place. I’m not sure he left much.
We spent like £400 million so anyone would have realistically got some form of a team in place after top tier investment.
LvG's transfers:
Jose's signings:
Ole's signings:
Averages:
Ole's average net spend was higher than LvG's (as you'd expect after a few years of market prices increasing), but lower than Jose's. Overall, there wasn't much between the three of them in terms of net spend, so it's worth digging a bit deeper at the age/mentality profile of exactly who was bought.
Solksjaer's average age of incomings was obviously pushed up by the purchases of Ronaldo and Cavani. But I guess you could say the same for Jose bringing in Zlatan. The difference, however, is if you look at each of their transfers of players under 21. That's clearly what the focus was with Solksjaer. But whereas Ole only bought Ronaldo and Cavani as stop gaps for his youth players, Jose was all about putting all his eggs into a single win-right-now basket. Let's not forget, if Mourinho had had his way, we'd have also got a 30 year old Peresic for £50m.
Players like Sancho, Pellestri and Amad are top class prospects who Solksjaer was never going to have the opportunity to get the best out of. That's precisely what it means to leave a legacy. Ole put the club's interests before his own.
Then try comparing Ole to LvG. LvG bought the biggest lot of weak-willed mercaneries you've ever seen. That culture change from SAF set us back years. One of the hallmarks of a good transfer strategy is assessing your targets' mentalities. Louis obviously never got the message. United turned into Disneyland under his management.
That's not to say Ole's cultural reset hasn't been perfect since. Transfers are always going to be gambles. But at least he did buy players like Bruno, Varane, Ronaldo and Sancho who aren't shy about letting their teammates know when they've fecked something up. None of them are quite Roy Keane, but that's the ideal we were aiming for. If it's about leaving a legacy, building a squad like that is exactly what will teach our youngsters what it means to be a top player at a top club.
| Player | Transfer fee paid (£m) | Age at purchase | Transfer fee received (£m) | Age at sale |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Ángel Di María | 67.5 | 26 | ||
| Luke Shaw | 33.75 | 19 | ||
| Ander Herrera | 32.4 | 25 | ||
| Marcos Rojo | 18 | 24 | ||
| Daley Blind | 15.75 | 24 | ||
| Vanja Milinković-Savić | 1.58 | 17 | ||
| Radamel Falcao | 0 | 28 | ||
| Danny Welbeck | 18 | 23 | ||
| Shinji Kagawa | 7.2 | 25 | ||
| Alexander Büttner | 4.95 | 25 | ||
| Wilfried Zaha | 3.42 | 21 | ||
| Bebé | 2.7 | 24 | ||
| Patrice Evra | 1.71 | 33 | ||
| Anthony Martial | 54.00 | 19 | ||
| Morgan Schneiderlin | 31.50 | 25 | ||
| Memphis Depay | 30.60 | 21 | ||
| Matteo Darmian | 16.20 | 25 | ||
| Bastian Schweinsteiger | 8.10 | 31 | ||
| Ángel Di María | 56.7 | 27 | ||
| Chicharito | 10.8 | 27 | ||
| Jonny Evans | 7.47 | 27 | ||
| Robin van Persie | 5.85 | 32 | ||
| Nani | 5.4 | 30 | ||
| Rafael | 2.88 | 25 | ||
| Ángelo Henríquez | 1.5 | 21 |
Jose's signings:
| Player | Transfer fee paid (£m) | Age at purchase | Transfer fee received (£m) | Age at sale |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Paul Pogba | 94.50 | 23 | ||
| Henrikh Mkhitaryan | 37.80 | 27 | ||
| Eric Bailly | 34.20 | 22 | ||
| Zlatan Ibrahimovic | 0.00 | 34 | ||
| Morgan Schneiderlin | 20.7 | 26 | ||
| Memphis Depay | 14.4 | 22 | ||
| Paddy McNair | 4.73 | 21 | ||
| Tyler Blackett | 1.62 | 22 | ||
| Will Keane | 1.08 | 23 | ||
| Romelu Lukaku | 76.23 | 24 | ||
| Nemanja Matic | 40.23 | 29 | ||
| Victor Lindelöf | 31.50 | 23 | ||
| Alexis Sánchez | 30.60 | 30 | ||
| Henrikh Mkhitaryan | 30.6 | 28 | ||
| Adnan Januzaj | 7.65 | 22 | ||
| Fred | 53.10 | 25 | ||
| Diogo Dalot | 19.80 | 19 | ||
| Lee Grant | 1.53 | 35 | ||
| Daley Blind | 14.4 | 28 | ||
| Sam Johnstone | 6.62 | 22 | ||
| Marouane Fellaini | 6.48 | 30 |
Ole's signings:
| Player | Transfer fee paid (£m) | Age at purchase | Transfer fee received (£m) | Age at sale |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Harry Maguire | 78.30 | 26 | ||
| Bruno Fernandes | 56.70 | 24 | ||
| Aaron Wan-Bissaka | 49.50 | 21 | ||
| Daniel James | 16.02 | 21 | ||
| Romelu Lukaku | 66.6 | 26 | ||
| Matteo Darmian | 2.23 | 29 | ||
| Ashley Young | 1.53 | 34 | ||
| Donny van de Beek | 35.10 | 23 | ||
| Amad Diallo | 19.17 | 18 | ||
| Alex Telles | 13.50 | 27 | ||
| Facundo Pellistri | 7.65 | 18 | ||
| Edinson Cavani | 0.00 | 33 | ||
| Chris Smalling | 13.5 | 30 | ||
| Timothy Fosu-Mensah | 1.53 | 22 | ||
| Jadon Sancho | 76.50 | 21 | ||
| Raphaël Varane | 36.00 | 28 | ||
| Cristiano Ronaldo | 13.50 | 36 | ||
| Daniel James | 26.19 | 23 |
Averages:
| Manager | Net spend per season (£m) | Average age of outgoings | Average age of incomings | Players 21 or under | Amount spent on players 21 or under (£m) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| LvG | 90.4 | 26.2 | 23.7 | 4 | 119.9 |
| Mourniho | 103.74 | 26.5 | 24.4 | 1 | 19.8 |
| Ole | 96.79 | 27.3 | 24.7 | 5 | 168.8 |
Ole's average net spend was higher than LvG's (as you'd expect after a few years of market prices increasing), but lower than Jose's. Overall, there wasn't much between the three of them in terms of net spend, so it's worth digging a bit deeper at the age/mentality profile of exactly who was bought.
Solksjaer's average age of incomings was obviously pushed up by the purchases of Ronaldo and Cavani. But I guess you could say the same for Jose bringing in Zlatan. The difference, however, is if you look at each of their transfers of players under 21. That's clearly what the focus was with Solksjaer. But whereas Ole only bought Ronaldo and Cavani as stop gaps for his youth players, Jose was all about putting all his eggs into a single win-right-now basket. Let's not forget, if Mourinho had had his way, we'd have also got a 30 year old Peresic for £50m.
Players like Sancho, Pellestri and Amad are top class prospects who Solksjaer was never going to have the opportunity to get the best out of. That's precisely what it means to leave a legacy. Ole put the club's interests before his own.
Then try comparing Ole to LvG. LvG bought the biggest lot of weak-willed mercaneries you've ever seen. That culture change from SAF set us back years. One of the hallmarks of a good transfer strategy is assessing your targets' mentalities. Louis obviously never got the message. United turned into Disneyland under his management.
That's not to say Ole's cultural reset hasn't been perfect since. Transfers are always going to be gambles. But at least he did buy players like Bruno, Varane, Ronaldo and Sancho who aren't shy about letting their teammates know when they've fecked something up. None of them are quite Roy Keane, but that's the ideal we were aiming for. If it's about leaving a legacy, building a squad like that is exactly what will teach our youngsters what it means to be a top player at a top club.
Much of that was spent on players like Sancho and Amad who were bought for the future rather than the here-and-now.
It's unfair to use that spend as a stick to beat Ole with. If anything, it should be an argument in favour of Solksjaer's legacy.
Sancho was bought for the future and not for the now? That is just rubbish.
He has been one of the best wingers (not just young wingers) for a good 3 seasons. Sure his age means he has a great future here, but that was a signing for the now and future and Solksjaer had no clue how to use him.
He has been one of the best wingers (not just young wingers) for a good 3 seasons. Sure his age means he has a great future here, but that was a signing for the now and future and Solksjaer had no clue how to use him.
Bruno too but his signings have flopped mostly. I agree Amad and Sancho might turn out to be all time greats for us. I hope they do.
I think these were at times quite obvious signings we would have made under Mourinho also. Amad is definitely a player he would have gone after and we were linked to Sancho for a few years.
Same with Jude Bellingham in the future I’m not gonna be surprised if he rocks up here as we are obviously in for him as a club.
Every club or manager get's some signings wrong, however, Klopp will have a Keita or Pep an Ake overlocked because, they have been successful with the money they have spent.
Ole didn't win, and his football was terrible. You said "he wasn't that bad" , but I think we can all agree and say he was bad, that is why he was sacked.
No, they haven't.
Maguire hasnt been adequate for too large chunks in his time here. Wan Bissaka is extremely limited as a right back, Pellistri was never seen, VDB has been a ghost.
I dont think its that inaccurate to be fair.
What a load of nonsense.
On the bolded parts
1) if Mourinho got Perisic who was 27/28 at the time we wouldn't go for the most dreadful piece of business that Alexis Sanchez was. Also Perisic had at least 3 good years still in him and had a terrific World Cup and a good EURO in comparison to Alexis where he hasn't performed for the last 4 years. Even in Italy he is considered somewhat of a failure signing.
2) So by buying teens is what legacy means? Hell if he bought 11 under 21s, even if he failed from his first season and got sacked you would still be labeling him a success for putting the club's interest before his own. Just because he bought top class prospects?
3) If anyone can claim that changed the culture of this club post-SAF, surely has to be Moyes.
If anything Van Gaal upgraded the academy structure and actually played a lot of young players. Sure most of these were flops but you can't argue he tried giving youngsters a bigger role in the squad. And this is an important part of the so-called "United DNA" or "United way"
4) United turned into Disneyland the moment Ed arrived as CEO. Disneyland for the agents
You'd think Ole personally bought the players the way some go on.
Manager with a lot of money to spend buys some expensive sought after players isn't the amazing achievement some seem to think it is.
As for he did well until this season, it's incredible that some still can't recognise their were issues leading up to this.
Manager with a lot of money to spend buys some expensive sought after players isn't the amazing achievement some seem to think it is.
As for he did well until this season, it's incredible that some still can't recognise their were issues leading up to this.
Good analysis, but (1) the manager is clearly not the single voice behind transfers after Fergia and (2) I feel you are cherry picking evidence to benefit Ole a bit:
1. You bring Perisic to argue against Jose, but we chased a 31 year old Trippier whilst having AWB (new signing), Dalot and Laird in his position under Ole. I do not see how it is better than chaing Perisic especially given AWB was signed under Ole. Jose would be 100% criticized a lot if it were the case under him.
2. You are ignoring the fact that under LvG we signed Shaw and Martial at 19 who were first team/squad players after that. If Ole gets credit for his under-21 signings, why not LvG?
3. Pellistri and Amad have a lot to prove and it is not clear they would be at least squad players with us. Pellistri never played for first team yet, Amad player like 3 games in Italy before he signed made a couple of appearances and was behind the likes of Mata in pecking order under Ole. Amad is similar to what Dalot was at his age.
4. So for first team young players signed under Ole we are left with AWB is a huge question mark at the moment and Sancho (there was James who left, but then you have Depay under LvG). Not much really. I would not name it as some huge shift in focus. For the first team we still signed mostly prime age or past-prime players under Ole. Maybe an improvement over Jose's transfers in terms of youth.
5. "aren't shy about letting their teammates know when they've fecked something up" - do you think Ibra was shy about that? And what is the evidence for this for Sancho and Varane?Plus, with Bruno it ended up being outright disruptive on the pitch. Anyway, I do not think that you can talk about "cultural reset" if you are not dropping underperformnace, high fiving Maguire after red card etc etc.
I agree that in transfers under Ole we avoided some of the mistakes of the past. I agree that transfers have been on paper somewhat better. But again - we have a transfer committee, not the manager deciding singlehandedly and even given that our transfer record is questionable.
But I maintain that all the "cultural reset" and "youth focus" is 95% perception and 5% reality at best. And when it comes to stuff that was definitely on the responsibility of manager, Ole's record is quite poor. No youngster was promoted to be a squad player at least bar Greenwood. Many players were untouchable no matter now bad they performed. Average age of the squad is league average. Lots of players rushed back and overplayed (latest news is that Cavani confirmed that he was rushed against Spurs and aggravated his injury). Many disappointed squad players with broken promises. Wrong capitan choice, and the good potential captain (Bruno) not man-managed correctly but pandered to and as a result spend significant parts of each game arguing with referees and complaining....I could go on but I really should stop
Can you give any examples of this?
A few post down from there i have given 2
Good analysis, but (1) the manager is clearly not the single voice behind transfers after Fergia and (2) I feel you are cherry picking evidence to benefit Ole a bit:
1. You bring Perisic to argue against Jose, but we chased a 31 year old Trippier whilst having AWB (new signing), Dalot and Laird in his position under Ole. I do not see how it is better than chaing Perisic especially given AWB was signed under Ole. Jose would be 100% criticized a lot if it were the case under him.
2. You are ignoring the fact that under LvG we signed Shaw and Martial at 19 who were first team/squad players after that. If Ole gets credit for his under-21 signings, why not LvG?
3. Pellistri and Amad have a lot to prove and it is not clear they would be at least squad players with us. Pellistri never played for first team yet, Amad player like 3 games in Italy before he signed made a couple of appearances and was behind the likes of Mata in pecking order under Ole. Amad is similar to what Dalot was at his age.
4. So for first team young players signed under Ole we are left with AWB is a huge question mark at the moment and Sancho (there was James who left, but then you have Depay under LvG). Not much really. I would not name it as some huge shift in focus. For the first team we still signed mostly prime age or past-prime players under Ole. Maybe an improvement over Jose's transfers in terms of youth.
5. "aren't shy about letting their teammates know when they've fecked something up" - do you think Ibra was shy about that? And what is the evidence for this for Sancho and Varane?Plus, with Bruno it ended up being outright disruptive on the pitch. Anyway, I do not think that you can talk about "cultural reset" if you are not dropping underperformnace, high fiving Maguire after red card etc etc.
I agree that in transfers under Ole we avoided some of the mistakes of the past. I agree that transfers have been on paper somewhat better. But again - we have a transfer committee, not the manager deciding singlehandedly and even given that our transfer record is questionable.
But I maintain that all the "cultural reset" and "youth focus" is 95% perception and 5% reality at best. And when it comes to stuff that was definitely on the responsibility of manager, Ole's record is quite poor. No youngster was promoted to be a squad player at least bar Greenwood. Many players were untouchable no matter now bad they performed. Average age of the squad is league average. Lots of players rushed back and overplayed (latest news is that Cavani confirmed that he was rushed against Spurs and aggravated his injury). Many disappointed squad players with broken promises. Wrong capitan choice, and the good potential captain (Bruno) not man-managed correctly but pandered to and as a result spend significant parts of each game arguing with referees and complaining....I could go on but I really should stop
Signing players like Pogba 80m or sancho 80m shouldnt be credited to the manager. Good player, huge prices a no shit sherlock type of signing.
Nothing short of getting 110% out of that kind of purchase is justifiable as credit for the manager.
I couldn't see anyone 'pissing' on Ralf, just some defending some of Ole's signings. Some people really need to move on. I haven't seen anyone really not getting behind Ralf, a couple of sceptics sure, which is fair enough, but no-one full-on hating on him.
Yes and no. Less credit for sure, but you can spunk £90m on Pogba and not get the best out of him, as we've seen with two managers or three at a push if you include SAF, although that would be harsh.
Faie enough but the bar should be higher than just buying pogba or sancho.
On the point of Solskjaer signing more youngsters, I could be wrong but United now have a separate youth budget for youth purchases which whilst Ole probably had a say in would have been managed by Nicky Butt and his team at the time. So pellestri, jurado, kimbwala, fernandez etc I think would have been identified and signed mainly by nicky butt. Amad im a little unsure of as his fee was quite large. So I wouldn't necessarily give Ole credit on this as it seems to be a structural change that united made that coincided with nicky butts position getting a larger transfer budget etc.
This is also a point Rio Ferdinand was making on his podcast that a lot of these background changes that people attribute to Ole (youth structure change, training ground change etc) are not changes Ole made, it was the club that made these changes.
This is also a point Rio Ferdinand was making on his podcast that a lot of these background changes that people attribute to Ole (youth structure change, training ground change etc) are not changes Ole made, it was the club that made these changes.