Correct, but Ole's record or getting the best of/improving new signings is quite poor, that is the thing. Previous two managers did no better, but Ole did not do well at all either. Maguire and AwB are 130m combined question marks still, VdB and Sancho he did not know how to use. Even Bruno stopped improving and his on pitch behavior is quite shameful, but Ole was unfortunately too soft to put a stop on it.
Solskjaer's legacy and his future
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Desperation is real in here.
Was going to reply but realised this is a debate I have close to zero interest in and don't want to get involved in as I need to go out for dinner
What I do not understand about some people is that they say 'Solskjaer's signings were great' and then say 'Solskjaer wasn't all that bad'.
But that makes no sense to me. How can both of those possibly be true if he left us in a worse position in the league than when Mourinho was sacked?
Solskjaer was a very poor manager. He did luck out with the league being at the weakest point in a very long time. The top six died out. Chelsea experienced a huge dip. Tottenham were on the decline. Arsenal declined after sacking Emery. Liverpool experienced a torrid time with injuries last season.
The proof is in the pudding. As soon as the league regains strength and competitiveness (this season), Solskjaer gets shown up for the poor manager that he always has been. He was just very lucky with timing.
But that makes no sense to me. How can both of those possibly be true if he left us in a worse position in the league than when Mourinho was sacked?
Solskjaer was a very poor manager. He did luck out with the league being at the weakest point in a very long time. The top six died out. Chelsea experienced a huge dip. Tottenham were on the decline. Arsenal declined after sacking Emery. Liverpool experienced a torrid time with injuries last season.
The proof is in the pudding. As soon as the league regains strength and competitiveness (this season), Solskjaer gets shown up for the poor manager that he always has been. He was just very lucky with timing.
Don't understand how Ole can have been great in the transfer market and correct for never giving the likes of Donny Telles Amad and increasingly Sancho chances to play... they're his signings
Well, his legacy is what he left behind. A squad low on confidence, absolutely clueless in several aspects of the sport and full of failure. That's what he left behind. I know many on here want to find anything to credit him for but three years where we won nothing, played some of the worst football in the league and ended up with Ole isolating majority of the squad doesn't really paint a legacy at all. His literal job was to bring success back to the club and he failed. Couldn't even bring about a philosophy or style of football. In most aspects of a managerial job, Ole failed and at any other club, he'd have been given the boot after the Burnley defeat in 2019.
He also convinced many people Ronaldo was at fault. Holy feck.
He also convinced many people Ronaldo was at fault. Holy feck.
Which kids from the academy broke through during ole's reign ? I can't think of one.
Before you say greenwood let me inform you that it was jose that got him training with the first team and handed him his first contract.
Why is it so hard for some people to accept that he isn’t a good manager? You just had to watch the game and the randomness of performances to know that.
He might be a nice guy and he might have brought in some good players, but he isn’t a manager, and it’s laughable that he was in charge of one of the biggest clubs in the world for 3 years.
There was no progress in the pitch. It was very good footballers under a poor coach and sometimes that was enough to win.
He isn’t a manager and he doesn’t have a legacy as one. It was a waste of time after the first 5 months. We need to accept that and move on, because we need to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
He might be a nice guy and he might have brought in some good players, but he isn’t a manager, and it’s laughable that he was in charge of one of the biggest clubs in the world for 3 years.
There was no progress in the pitch. It was very good footballers under a poor coach and sometimes that was enough to win.
He isn’t a manager and he doesn’t have a legacy as one. It was a waste of time after the first 5 months. We need to accept that and move on, because we need to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
When people buy into something lock stock and barrel they double down in there beliefs when presented with evidence that there initial belief was wrong.
This is evidenced by the qanon circus going on, despite so many predictions going down the shitter the faithful are still at it.
Basically its comes down to denying facts to save face than accept you were an idiot.
This is well documented.
His legacy as manager is the worst premier league manager in history of the PL and the worst Utd manager ever! He had the 3rd most expansive squad in history of world football. He had the blind support of his staff, the board, players and the fans for the majority of his time and did/won nothing. He never ever learn from his mistakes and keep repeating the same mistakes expecting different outcome dispite people spelling it out for him. Clearly in misery and out of his depth majority of the time yet still won't give way despite saying he wants the best for the club. His actions only showed that he would rather live his dream to manage the club (at the club's expanse) than see the club succeed.
However, his legacy as a player is spotless and will forever be!
However, his legacy as a player is spotless and will forever be!
Ole is a legend and rightfully so. My opinion of him isn't less because I know he loves the club and did his absolute best but let's be honest, as a manager he isn't up to standards. This was evident quite early and the massive inconsistency in form proves exactly that.
Ole was given a proper chance to prove himself, 3 years and over 400M £. To look like we did this season is a clear sign he wasn't a good manager.
I actually love how extreme some people's thinking is.
Signings were flop, he's tactically shite, he's the worst PL manager (of all time?), but yet we finished 2nd and 3rd - consecutive top 4 finishes in PL for the 1st time since SAF. Surely, people need to realize that something doesn't add up
Signings were flop, he's tactically shite, he's the worst PL manager (of all time?), but yet we finished 2nd and 3rd - consecutive top 4 finishes in PL for the 1st time since SAF. Surely, people need to realize that something doesn't add up
20/21 - 18 penalties received
19/20 - 22 penalties received
Very fortunate that the early VAR era happened during his reign. This season pelanty couldn't come to his rescue anymore.
19/20 - 22 penalties received
Very fortunate that the early VAR era happened during his reign. This season pelanty couldn't come to his rescue anymore.
You're only as good as your last game etc.
I think even the staunchest of Ole's fans would struggle to name another PL manager (in the entire history) that the opposition fans loved more than they loved and wanted Ole as Utd manager. The scary part was it wasn't a banter from a few rivals but rather every single opponents we faced wanted him to stay for as long as possible. That's how bad it was.
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No legacy. Sure he shifted some deadwood but that's hardly the basis of any kind of legacy. We had no identity under Ole despite him attempting to implement fast, counter attacking football as he just didn't have the tactics and maybe we didn't have the players?
Still a United legend, but he was never cut out to be a manager, many people aren't.
Still a United legend, but he was never cut out to be a manager, many people aren't.
Of course it adds up. His name is Bruno. The week before he joined we'd just lost 2-0 at home to Burnley leaving us 6 points off of 4th spot and 14 points off 3rd. You could argue it was a genius managerial decision to sign him even though we turned him down the previous summer and finally signed him as a last hail Mary but that's for another discussion. Oles managerial expertise didn't get us top 4. Bruno did.
Zero legacy for me. He was bailed out by some incredible luck time and again and was afforded the benefit of the doubt more than he deserved because he was an ex-United legend and a nice guy.
And how do you explain us having 3rd most number of points in the 2018/19 season since OGS joined?
Yup. This was his record in 19/20 prior to Bruno:
It looks even worse if you tag the back end of 18/19 to it. He should've been sacked about 3x before we signed Bruno tbh
The team that finished 2nd in 17/18 managed to get the 3rd most points over a run of 20 games in the following season, after sacking a toxic manager.
Completely unprecedented achievement in football.
Yeah, and that team had 6th best underlying numbers, so..
The reason is pretty obvious. After the toxicity Mou left, the freedom Ole gave the players his first few months showed on the pitch and it really was the case of go out and enjoy yourself lads. You can give credit to Ole but it was hardly a tactical masterclass but when we had something to play for (top 4) and Ole decided he knew what he was doing and actually had to manage the team it all turned to shit pretty quickly.
Everyone was giving credit to Rashford and Martial for their season (2019/20) and rightly so but before lockdown Martial for example was involved in goals every 157 minutes. After lockdown (Bruno) that total rose to 1 every 57 minutes with Bruno creating 2.3 chances per game. Before Brunos arrival we were scoring 1.5 goals on average. After he arrived that number shot up to 2.3. People who chose to believe it was Ole that got us top 4 and not Bruno maybe need to rethink that idea. Of course if they want to give Ole credit for actually playing Bruno then I don"t have any problem with that. Each to their own.
The manager got duly sacked for it. It was the 2nd best performing team over the entirety of the previous season, it's not some sterling achievement they moved to the 3rd best performing team. Just like this team we were a good squad back then being let down by crappy management.
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It has been only an evolution of this Back passing
Our United fans are more likely to talk about Xavi's legacy after his below average management than talk about Solskjaers one.
What, Ole arrives, says go and enjoy yourselves, players are happy and go out and score, then wait, what, oh no, no coaching what are we going to do, oh look there's Bruno, thank God, he's saving us, then oh no, Bruno's tired, we're finished.
Do you imagine there was no formation or tactics during Ole's caretaker period? Or that it's remotely meaningful to consider whether the explanation for our success with Bruno is either solely because of him, or solely because of other things, as if one ruled out the other?
What makes more sense? Ole coming in with a tactical masterclass for a couple of months before it all went south and then losing all his tactical nous in the next 2 years 10 months or the players playing with a freedom they hadn't known in their United careers which was reflected on the pitch before the famed 4-2-3-1 came into play? So yes. It was a case of the players instructions being you go out and you do you.
I have yet to hear anyone in the footballing professional world, be it ex players or general pundits talk about Ole being tactically adept bar the very odd game which is pretty damning in itself after 3 years. It isn't treason to say Ole was out of his league. It's nothing personal, just cold hard facts. A good managers tactics get noticed at an early stage. A great managers tactics keeps evolving until the trophies are won on a regular basis Ole I'm afraid never even showed he was a good enough manager never mind a great one.
And yes. Bruno was 100%, without a shadow of a doubt, undisputedly, undeniably the sole reason Ole stayed in the job for as long as he did and us getting back to back top 4. The numbers before and after his arrival speak for themselves. I would never play down what Rashford and Martial did in the 19/20 season. Both were fantastic but their numbers shot up after the arrival of Bruno, our average goals per game went from 1.5 to 2.3 which is an incredible jump. Bruno was creating 2.3 chances per game so I think it's very safe to say without Bruno we definitely wouldn't have scrapped top 4 especially in Brunos first season which suggests it was nothing to do with the tactics that a lot of people seem to suggest was the only reason we did get back to back top 4. We weren't a team. We were 1 man on a mission and that man wasn't Ole.
What fails to make any sense is the notion that you have to choose one explanation or the other, when it is bleedin' obvious that the performance of individual players and how you play as a team both matter, and affect each other mutually.
So what happened? How did we go from a tactical masterclass for the first couple of months to tactical ineptitude for nearly 3 more years? My point is that without Bruno we definitely wouldn't have reached consecutive top 4 especially in his first half season with us. He was the catalyst and not Ole as many seem to suggest so it's not mutually exclusive. It's a case of inspite of, not because of.
The bolded sentence (and the rest of the post too) heavily suggests you don't actually understand the point about different factors not being mutually exclusive, since your response to it is to keep repeating the same fallacy. If you're assuming that improvement under Bruno was despite all other factors, that obviously does not mean that you're treating them as not mutually exclusive - in fact, it further increases the monomaniac reliance you place on Bruno's individual performance as the sole explanation.
Is this really so hard to understand? We obviously did not go from a tactical masterclass in the first couple of months to complete tactical ineptitude for nearly 3 more years. We got good results during the caretaker period for a number of reasons, one of whom were a shift in formation, tactics and approach. Surely you don't seriously entertain the notion that the only thing that changed was that we got rid of Mourinhos system and negativity, and replaced it with Ole encouraging the players to go out and enjoy themselves and then results just....happened?
Similarly, the ensuing period (which includes both very good and very bad stretches) are obviously not simply a product of Bruno. For example, not even he is so good that his impact is irrespective of how he is used and what the rest of the team does around him. A big part of the reason why he had such an impact was how he was utilised and how the style was structured in a way that allowed him to maximise that. Also, that would not have mattered if we had not also solved other aspects of the game reasonably successfully. You don't go on a 28-game unbeaten streak simply and solely because you have good no 10. As ought to be obvious.
I hardly think I have a pathological obsession with Bruno. I'm just stating the obvious that without him we wouldn't of gotten consecutive top 4 finishes which stems from peoples arguments stating Ole has to be a good manager to achieve what he did in the league in terms of position. I disagree with the, "what Ole did' statements and I'm more in the, "what Bruno did" ones.
Of course how a player is utilised affects how a team plays but normally we talk about these sort of interactions in well drilled, organised sides. When a team was as disjointed as ours for as long as he's been here then you have to look beyond the managers nous and really get to the grass routes of what made us tick and if by not playing Bruno as CB was the cause then I'll happily give Ole credit.
Oles tactics (?) were as basic as they come. Sit back and hit teams on the break in the vast majority of his time with us. There was nothing to suggest he could get close to the style top teams play on a consistent basis let alone challenge them which became more apparent the longer he was with us. There's no shame in not being as good as Pep or Klopp because there's very few managers out there that are but the gulf between them was so vast it more than suggests that Ole was nowhere near tactically astute enough to be our manager regardless of what consecutive top 4 finishes means to people.
Why would we care about Xavi's legacy?
Pogba decided to be unplayable
Ole's legacy:
Ole legacy is about bringing the United DNA back to OT wich we completely lost during the LVG, Mourinho years.
I will always be grateful to our Ole.
I will always be grateful to our Ole.
Yes.
Opposition teams knew we could beat them 4-0, 4-1, 4-2 etc on any given day due our individual talent but also knew they always had a chance at getting something off us because we were not well drilled as a team.
Good post. It's baffling how Ole is still getting so much credit for doing the bare minimum.
Legacy means "what is passed on"... What has Ole, the manager passed on to us? A few good memories, a half-decent but unbalanced team.
This was the case before him too. We're not "set-up to dominate", we've spent a bunch of money with not much to show for it.
So there's no "legacy" here IMO. Unless you consider the divisive "Ole is good/bad" debates among the fan base as a legacy.
Ole as a player is one of those that I'll forever cherish, but Ole the manager - thanks for doing your best, but I ain't shedding tears over him leaving - and I don't believe many of us are.
This was the case before him too. We're not "set-up to dominate", we've spent a bunch of money with not much to show for it.
So there's no "legacy" here IMO. Unless you consider the divisive "Ole is good/bad" debates among the fan base as a legacy.
Ole as a player is one of those that I'll forever cherish, but Ole the manager - thanks for doing your best, but I ain't shedding tears over him leaving - and I don't believe many of us are.
I keep seeing people keep bring up Ole being the only manager to do “consecutive top 4 finishes”, because they don’t want to say “consecutive Champions League qualifications”. Mourinho did this in the post Sir Alex era. Furthermore, Mourinho won a trophy doing so, and was in the Europa because LVG put us there. Ole failed twice, after being the one to put us there, twice.
Ole’s legacy as a manager is one of abject failure and delusion. As a player, he’ll always be a legend.
Ole’s legacy as a manager is one of abject failure and delusion. As a player, he’ll always be a legend.
Those guys brought more success than Ole could ever dream of. Unless said dna stopped including actually winning things. Give that exact stint to another manager that wasn't an ex-player and no one would ever think to say he brought back old United. He even played defensive counter attack for a sizable chunk of his tenure. No one would think to associate this type of football with our DNA if he wasn't a likeable face.
We also bottled every opportunity to win a trophy without fail. We're basically Spurs right now. United DNA never had timidity in its fabric. He then got to the top of the table and immediately declared we couldn't win the league. I can't even imagine what would have happened if we had a player like Keane in that dressing room.
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