Solskjaer's legacy and his future

Sky1981 said:
Right... snidey remarks as german genius...

And oh.. ole is actually not incompetent?

But sure... not a dig at rangnick
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Pot kettle black on the snideness, bro.

btw, Ole wasn’t up to the job, but incompetent is a strong exaggeration. Someone truly incompetent would not have finished in the positions we did, and would not hold up as well as Ole did against Tuchel, Guardiola, Klopp, etc. Last few months notwithstanding.

You’d get less nonsense back if you wrote less nonsense yourself. Try a bit of nuance.
 
Eriku said:
Pot kettle black on the snideness, bro.

btw, Ole wasn’t up to the job, but incompetent is a strong exaggeration. Someone truly incompetent would not have finished in the positions we did, and would not hold up as well as Ole did against Tuchel, Guardiola, Klopp, etc. Last few months notwithstanding.

You’d get less nonsense back if you wrote less nonsense yourself. Try a bit of nuance.
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Sure. I believe 33 pages here are filled with logical, objective, non biased nuance.

But hey. Last post here. You guys go on doing what you do
 
Sky1981 said:
Sure. I believe 33 pages here are filled with logical, objective, non biased nuance.

But hey. Last post here. You guys go on doing what you do
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No, there’s plenty of flawed reasoning on both sides. Don’t be a child, pointing at what others do doesn’t absolve you of doing the same (I get enough of that shit working with first graders).
 
Eriku said:
Pot kettle black on the snideness, bro.

btw, Ole wasn’t up to the job, but incompetent is a strong exaggeration. Someone truly incompetent would not have finished in the positions we did, and would not hold up as well as Ole did against Tuchel, Guardiola, Klopp, etc. Last few months notwithstanding.

You’d get less nonsense back if you wrote less nonsense yourself. Try a bit of nuance.
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What he means is we finished 3rd and 2nd inspite of Ole not because of him - A side that had Lingard and AP as the creative guys, McT and Fred injured for parts of the season and Rashford and Martial missing games as well - was still good enough to finish 3rd and had we had a competent manager, we'd have finished higher.

Now with coaching + Varane, Jadon and Ronaldo, I'm hoping we aren't happy with anything less CL win, else Rangnick would have lowered our standards.

Joking aside, Ole did a good job here - getting back to back top 4 finishes is an impressive feat with a decentish side no matter how you look at it - Conte wasnt able to do that and neither were LVG and Mou.
 
Sky1981 said:
1st. Ole the player is not ole the manager

2nd. Go ahead describe his tenure at United.
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1st. Yes he is. The very same person.

2nd. Ups and downs and freefall in the end. Although he started well I think he failed to convince he was doing the job long time ago and in fact its been months since I voted him out. He gave his best, it turned out it wasn't good enough and that's that. But that doesn't mean he should be treated like a dog.
 
I actually think he is worst than Moyes and that says it all. Fans are all blinded by their loyalty to him because he is an ex-player and the feel-good factor he brought back to the club for the first few months but it was clear that he is totally out of his depth as a manager. He overstayed his time, should have left after his caretaker stint was over that season and he would have probably been immortalized. Now he has destroyed his legacy by wasting 3 years of the club's time.
 
Sky1981 said:
Right... snidey remarks as german genius...

And oh.. ole is actually not incompetent?

But sure... not a dig at rangnick

Rangnick should not even be mentioned in this thread. But hey.. just cant help it eh?
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How is defending Ole a dig at Rangnick? That's a really disjointed line of thinking.

Bringing his nationality into it is a bit weird and unnecessary but its one comment from one person.

Rangnick has been brought into this conversation by posters using his first game to further lay into Ole. That's what the above comments you've quoted are remarking on. Not Rangnick the coach but posters using anything and everything to discredit Ole as much as possible.
 
Sky1981 said:
Or maybe we started of as simply saying that he did not have what it takes and simply told to shut the feck up because progress, recruitment, vision, united DNA, and told that he so loved the club he cant even have the spine to stand on the sideline, sitting slumped with his ipad, so inept at the job that any club loving legend would have raised their hands up and admit the jobs too big for them, or how he spent promoting his buddies to key position to help secure his position.

Loved the club. Yeah right.
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So at the start of the post you're saying it's not that you hate Ole, you're just angry because you were right about his unsuitability for the job and some posters haven't been giving you the credit your understanding of the game deserves. That's fair enough, but it's more a complaint about about other posters/fans than it is about Ole himself.

My question is how do you go from that, to the slew of personal attacks, pop psychology-based criticisms and accusations of mild conspiracy of Ole specifically which make up the rest of your post? And how do you get so worked up about it that you end by derisively mocking a statement which doesn't appear in the post you're quoting?
 
Max_United said:
1. Comparison of the actual points to long-term average for the same league positions given us a rough understanding of how strong were top teams in a given season relative to history. Overall there is no clear downward trend (if you are implying that midtable and bottom half teams became stronger - if there were such a trend then yes, this would be a distorted measure). But if you look at the points total of big 4 over the last 10 years average is 315 with Moyes (331) and Jose (333, 333) managing in seasons with stronger-than-average top-4 whilst LvG (311, 288) and Ole (312, 296) managing in sessons with weaker-than-avearge top-4 suggesting that probably we have to be a bit stricter in assessing LvG and Ole's results just a league and a bit more lenient when assessing Jose's and Moyes' results (all other thing equal of course).

2. Expected points/expected league position gives us a rough indicaton of whether we were "lucky" or "unlucky" to finish where we did. It is rare that teams outperform expected goals/points consistently. On expected goals and points we were behind Chelsea and Liverpool in 20/21, so we were likely lucky to finish above them.

3. I never claimed that the measures I use are perfect and take into account everything. But it does not mean that as you suggest we should rely only on league places and strength of squads on paper in evaluating Ole and ignore other (however imperfect) measures. In 19/20 Liverpool had injury issues, and Chelsea was in managerial transition. And we still should have finished below them with a points total which is not usually enough for top4 and lower than in previous season. Our 2nd finish was a confluence of a number of positive and lucky factors and was not sustainable.

4. Squad strength on paper is anyway a very subjective measure since it's perception (and actual quality of players to some degree) depends on coaching a lot. Under a competent coach players look on average better than they are under a subpar coach, plus they realize their full potential. Salah, Mane, Firmino, Robertson were no world class players when they were signed and would be nowhere near where they are now under Ole. If Henderson was signed and played under Ole we would all clamor for him to be replaced, and so on. So I I a bit confused why you insist on relying on comparable squad quality to assess Ole, whilst dismissing other measures which at least are somewhat objective if imperfect.

5. The biggest problem with your argument is that from it (as you claim that Ole had 6-8th squad in 19/20) it follows that Jose's squad was in fact midtable (since it is not really disputable that squad under Ole became stronger) and Jose is a magician by achieving 2nd and 81 points (and EL win) with it. So if we accept your argument that Ole overachieved with the squad, it follows that Jose did a lot better than him and he had a midtable squad - do not think that anyone would agree with it.
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I still don't see how all of points 1-3 (assessing average points for top four or assessing 'expected points', 'expected league positions' etc...are better measures than just accepting the actual league position though. I would understand if we were talking about one off games, or small Data sets, like results over a two-month period, but there's logic behind the old saying 'the table never lies'...because over the course of 9-months, you play every team twice and will generally finish where you deserve over the course of 38 games.

We can go back and forth on this all day. The indisputable fact is that Ole had two full seasons in-charge of Manchester Utd, and we finished 3rd and 2nd. In fact, Ole has been our only manager post-SAF to achieve back-to-back top four finishes.

On point 5, I argued vigorously at the time that Jose had massively overachieved with his squad and that 2nd was a fantastic finish. Jose is also clearly a better manager, from a tactical and coaching standpoint, than Ole. The reason form dropped off massively in Jose's final year was because he seemed to throw his toys out the pram when the Board (correctly) wouldn't risk the financial stability of the club to give him an extra £200m to really try and chase down City. At that point, he began to do stupid things, like playing Herrera at CB and getting into an unnecessary war with Paul Pogba.

Back to the matter at hand and just to re-outline my original point....we can agree that Ole was massively out of his depth tactically, when it came to transforming us from a counter-attacking side to a progressive side, capable of dominating games. However, I don't agree that means we can completely dismiss what he did manage to achieve in the two seasons prior.

For example, you must acknowledge that achieving two consecutive Champions League finishes under Ole came at a very important time. Imagine we hadn't achieved qualification under Ole in his first full-season. That would have meant no Champions League football for the 3rd season out of 4. What would that have done to our commercial revenues and ability to attract top players? Do you think we would have the likes of Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo now if we hadn't qualified for the CL twice under Ole and finished 2nd last season? Personally, I don't believe we would have, so in that respect, I think Ole has left a fair platform for a more tactically astute and experienced manager to build on
 
kopviolator said:
1st. Yes he is. The very same person.

2nd. Ups and downs and freefall in the end. Although he started well I think he failed to convince he was doing the job long time ago and in fact its been months since I voted him out. He gave his best, it turned out it wasn't good enough and that's that. But that doesn't mean he should be treated like a dog.
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No he should not be treated like a dog. He should be respected for what he did as a player and even as a manager.
But that's not to say it's acceptable to rewrite history. He simply was never good enough for a top club. Didn't have the knowledge or ability to do so. Success is a different story. If Ole had gone on a decent run in the CL and played good football and won a few trophies here and there it would have been different.
 
Foxbatt said:
No he should not be treated like a dog. He should be respected for what he did as a player and even as a manager.
But that's not to say it's acceptable to rewrite history. He simply was never good enough for a top club. Didn't have the knowledge or ability to do so. Success is a different story. If Ole had gone on a decent run in the CL and played good football and won a few trophies here and there it would have been different.
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I don't know who is attemtping to rewrite history. Certainly not me. I´m simply of the opinion that the hostilidy and disrespect he's getting on this forum is unnecessary
 
Solskjaer's Legacy:

- finished 2nd and 3rd
- bought Fernandes
- shambolic CL campaign packed full of ridiculous errors
- split the squad by failing to select the team on merit
- complacency within his group of favourites
- culture of signing players to solve problems rather than demanding the team find a solution
- too many players either towards the end of their career or running down their contract
- a few players improved, some developed for a season or two, then their awful form contributed towards him losing his job
- never found a convincing style of play that looked like it could compete for the title

Since I wanted him to be appointed United manager as I believed him to be an intelligent person with knowledge and understanding of both United and the PL, I'm disappointed by a lot of the decisions Solskjaer made. I was concerned the moment Wan-Bissaka and especially Maguire arrived. In the end it was probably Maguire's shocking form that cost Solskjaer his job. I wish he had selected the team on merit and demanded that every player work hard, contribute defensively etc. I thought continuing to select De Gea towards the end of the Mourinho/Solskjaer season was a poor decision that cost us too many points. It really is ridiculous that the likes of Telles and Dalot can come in and perform as they have done in these last two games, likewise Bailly against Chelsea under Carrick.
 
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kopviolator said:
1st. Yes he is. The very same person.

2nd. Ups and downs and freefall in the end. Although he started well I think he failed to convince he was doing the job long time ago and in fact its been months since I voted him out. He gave his best, it turned out it wasn't good enough and that's that. But that doesn't mean he should be treated like a dog.
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He should be treated like a dog? Where have I treated him like a dog?

I respect his legacy as a player.

Clown of a manager. Incompetent. Yes. I stick by it, nothing wrong with calling an apple an apple. You can find euphemism in not his days, worked better in some other club, united DNA, loved the club etc. but if we poll him he'd be rightly and justly the 20th best manager in the league. And the 20th best manager in the league managing the top 3 traditional strong team like United... what's that if not nepotism.

Sure, if it makes you feel any better you can prose him up with "legend, top red, loved the club, hurts him on the inside bla bla bla"

For me he is a selfish man who doesn't resign and wait for the handout, even if he knows deep down that he's so far from competent. The man didn't even have a working tactics ffs. So no, he doesn't love the club, he loved his payout more. He drove the club I loved to the ground with his incompetence.

And I don't really feel I have to respect him just because he used to play for us, I respect his player legacy for that, but his managerial legacy... meh.. He took us against Liverpool and playing for a draw, that's not what United is all about, not once have Liverpool played like that even during our strongest days. Taking our scalp was their cup final
 
If we don't make it to the CL spots it's due to the fact he got us into this situation. If we end below the position he left us then it's on the current manager. But anything else it's on him.
 
Sky1981 said:
He should be treated like a dog? Where have I treated him like a dog?

I respect his legacy as a player.

Clown of a manager. Incompetent. Yes. I stick by it, nothing wrong with calling an apple an apple. You can find euphemism in not his days, worked better in some other club, united DNA, loved the club etc. but if we poll him he'd be rightly and justly the 20th best manager in the league. And the 20th best manager in the league managing the top 3 traditional strong team like United... what's that if not nepotism.

Sure, if it makes you feel any better you can prose him up with "legend, top red, loved the club, hurts him on the inside bla bla bla"

For me he is a selfish man who doesn't resign and wait for the handout, even if he knows deep down that he's so far from competent. The man didn't even have a working tactics ffs. So no, he doesn't love the club, he loved his payout more. He drove the club I loved to the ground with his incompetence.

And I don't really feel I have to respect him just because he used to play for us, I respect his player legacy for that, but his managerial legacy... meh.. He took us against Liverpool and playing for a draw, that's not what United is all about, not once have Liverpool played like that even during our strongest days. Taking our scalp was their cup final
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Sorry. This is too stupid for me.
Have a nice day.
 
Foxbatt said:
If we don't make it to the CL spots it's due to the fact he got us into this situation. If we end below the position he left us then it's on the current manager. But anything else it's on him.
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It's December and we're 3 points off West Ham in 4th. If RR fails to make up that gap, then it's on him and him alone I'm afraid.
 
Lentwood said:
I still don't see how all of points 1-3 (assessing average points for top four or assessing 'expected points', 'expected league positions' etc...are better measures than just accepting the actual league position though. I would understand if we were talking about one off games, or small Data sets, like results over a two-month period, but there's logic behind the old saying 'the table never lies'...because over the course of 9-months, you play every team twice and will generally finish where you deserve over the course of 38 games.

We can go back and forth on this all day. The indisputable fact is that Ole had two full seasons in-charge of Manchester Utd, and we finished 3rd and 2nd. In fact, Ole has been our only manager post-SAF to achieve back-to-back top four finishes.

On point 5, I argued vigorously at the time that Jose had massively overachieved with his squad and that 2nd was a fantastic finish. Jose is also clearly a better manager, from a tactical and coaching standpoint, than Ole. The reason form dropped off massively in Jose's final year was because he seemed to throw his toys out the pram when the Board (correctly) wouldn't risk the financial stability of the club to give him an extra £200m to really try and chase down City. At that point, he began to do stupid things, like playing Herrera at CB and getting into an unnecessary war with Paul Pogba.

Back to the matter at hand and just to re-outline my original point....we can agree that Ole was massively out of his depth tactically, when it came to transforming us from a counter-attacking side to a progressive side, capable of dominating games. However, I don't agree that means we can completely dismiss what he did manage to achieve in the two seasons prior.

For example, you must acknowledge that achieving two consecutive Champions League finishes under Ole came at a very important time. Imagine we hadn't achieved qualification under Ole in his first full-season. That would have meant no Champions League football for the 3rd season out of 4. What would that have done to our commercial revenues and ability to attract top players? Do you think we would have the likes of Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo now if we hadn't qualified for the CL twice under Ole and finished 2nd last season? Personally, I don't believe we would have, so in that respect, I think Ole has left a fair platform for a more tactically astute and experienced manager to build on
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Spot on.

The table does not lie (not that much anyway) and 3rd and 2nd are acceptable finishes all things considering.

That bolded part is also incredibly important. I know recent events may cloud our vision a bit, but we didnt always look as terrible as we did this season, and imo that has to do with Ole trying to implement a new style, just failing miserably at it

Regarding his "legacy" i think most will agree he left behind a much better squad than the one he inherited. He tried his best, but came up short against arguably the three best managers in the world right now. No shame in that
 
RedDevilMachine said:
I actually think he is worst than Moyes and that says it all. Fans are all blinded by their loyalty to him because he is an ex-player and the feel-good factor he brought back to the club for the first few months but it was clear that he is totally out of his depth as a manager. He overstayed his time, should have left after his caretaker stint was over that season and he would have probably been immortalized. Now he has destroyed his legacy by wasting 3 years of the club's time.
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Let's not get silly here.
 
Sky1981 said:
So did mourinho and moyes. Never stopped you guys from dishing him.
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No they didn't. :lol:

Jose never even moved out of the hotel.

Sky1981 said:
I dont hate the guy. I just had enough of you boys taking the piss and after the dust is settled instead of admitting that you're wrong and he is that bad you come here with a houliier than thou attitude pretending to be a classy fans that support the club legend. Or so you say.

It's like some moyes fans who says to me... yes he's shit but im a better red because i turned the last.

Feck that
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Ok so it's not that you hate/dislike Solskjaer but you're upset because some people (no idea who) won't admit they're wrong about something and because people are pointing out that you talking shit about a guy who played at the club for over a decade isn't classy? Have I got that right?
 
stevoc said:
No they didn't. :lol:

Jose never even moved out of the hotel.



Ok so it's not that you hate/dislike Solskjaer but you're upset because some people (no idea who) won't admit they're wrong about something and because people are pointing out that you talking shit about a guy who played at the club for over a decade isn't classy? Have I got that right?
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If you think he's better than Moyes, yeah sure... whatever, but he always smiles and brings chocolates to the receptionist lady. Classy incompetent manager, how's that? Better?
 
Sky1981 said:
If you think he's better than Moyes, yeah sure... whatever, but he always smiles and brings chocolates to the receptionist lady. Classy incompetent manager, how's that? Better?
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He was a better United manager than Moyes that's a fact, Moyes is the better manager over their careers.

You've definitely convinced me you have no dislike for the guy.
 
Sky1981 said:
Sure. 400m worth of fact
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You do realize he's spent same as Mou in terms of gross, 20m less in net. Spent less than LVG when you account for # seasons (and this is without accounting for inflation). And he's arguably the only one who's left a side good enough to challenge for titles now and in near future?
 
Ole was building a young and competent squad, he himself didn’t have enough xp and tactical knowhow to be a successful manager. But I do feel signing ronaldo disrupted the young and developing squad. Whether ole signed ronaldo or not is irrelevant now. This team has the potential to score more in ronaldo absence . Having said this ole left a far superior squad compared to Jose or van gaal.
 
I saw a manager who surrounded himself with mediocracy and yes sayers. I also saw a typical corporate guy, a weak leader who often acted as a politician instead of using his authority to take the right decisions instead of going for the easy ones. The way he dealt with Rashford and Maguire's injuries and some of the off field issues spring to my mind.

I saw stubbornness combined with emotion based decisions. Unfortunately I also saw a guy who didn't use his intellect and his potential the right way. Not humble enough to accept his shortcomings and not man enough to search for outside help. All of this is in my opinion clouding his legacy on a individual level and as a manager. We can all say we want the best for the club but if the criteria is to be the nicest person in the room then the tea lady is also an option. Leadership is to sometimes take tough decisions for the benefit of the future and being able to explain this to all involved without being too biased or having your own favorites.

His moment and his glory days as a player was more than 20 years ago. At the time I loved him but right now he's just another former great United player over the years.
 
anant said:
You do realize he's spent same as Mou in terms of gross, 20m less in net. Spent less than LVG when you account for # seasons (and this is without accounting for inflation). And he's arguably the only one who's left a side good enough to challenge for titles now and in near future?
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Sure. The other dude is the caf villain and ole is again.. the magic word... better than before... steady ship and better to challenge?

Our squad is a mess and His purchase has been 90% garbage. Apart from bruno and sancho. 130M for Awb and Maguire combo. Not to mention 3 years of not being coached, everyone in his squad has become worse individually. Better condition to win trophies... shudder

But hey... keep repeating things maybe it'll become true.
 
Sky1981 said:
Sure. The other dude is the caf villain and ole is again.. the magic word... better than before... steady ship and better to challenge?

Our squad is a mess and His purchase has been 90% garbage. Apart from bruno and sancho. 130M for Awb and Maguire combo. Not to mention 3 years of not being coached, everyone in his squad has become worse individually. Better condition to win trophies... shudder

But hey... keep repeating things maybe it'll become true.
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Hmm. So, Fred and Lindelof were flops and now are mainstays of the team. Shaw, Pogba and Martial were on the way out and each of them is now either an important member or had their best season under Ole. Rashford's best season under Ole.

I mean, sure AWB and HM are expensive purchases, but surely they havent been flops. There is scope of improvement, but if these were flops, I'm not sure what Depay, Schmidfield, Alexis, etc. were. Hell, HM was among the better defenders in PL last season.

And yes, we are in a better condition to win trophies. Feck we sacked him because we expected a title challenge and he was underachieving. Others were sacked because we didnt get top 4/ were behind 4th by 11 points.

Maybe look at things slightly more objectively?
 
Sky1981 said:
Sure. The other dude is the caf villain and ole is again.. the magic word... better than before... steady ship and better to challenge?

Our squad is a mess and His purchase has been 90% garbage. Apart from bruno and sancho. 130M for Awb and Maguire combo. Not to mention 3 years of not being coached, everyone in his squad has become worse individually. Better condition to win trophies... shudder

But hey... keep repeating things maybe it'll become true.
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Can you borrow me your random word generator so I can make some posts that have nothing to do with reality but drive my post count up? The one you're using now, please.
 
anant said:
Hmm. So, Fred and Lindelof were flops and now are mainstays of the team. Shaw, Pogba and Martial were on the way out and each of them is now either an important member or had their best season under Ole. Rashford's best season under Ole.

I mean, sure AWB and HM are expensive purchases, but surely they havent been flops. There is scope of improvement, but if these were flops, I'm not sure what Depay, Schmidfield, Alexis, etc. were. Hell, HM was among the better defenders in PL last season.

And yes, we are in a better condition to win trophies. Feck we sacked him because we expected a title challenge and he was underachieving. Others were sacked because we didnt get top 4/ were behind 4th by 11 points.

Maybe look at things slightly more objectively?
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Go make a thread on it and see how many disagrees with you.

And objectively LVG waste alot on dross, but the problem is that everyone sees it as it is, dross. They see Ole dross as some kind of epic purchases for the future. So yeah, double standard and all that.

Here's an idea for a thread


How many of ole purchases is a success?

How do you rate ole's team building for the last 3 years?
 
Isnt it about time this thread was closed?
Ole romantics wont have a bad word said against him and Ole realists know what a pile of shit it was. No ones going to change their mind or agree. Its just a waste of time. Hes gone so nothing is going to change for the better or worse on his time as manager.
 
Sky1981 said:
Go make a thread on it and see how many disagrees with you.

And objectively LVG waste alot on dross, but the problem is that everyone sees it as it is, dross. They see Ole dross as some kind of epic purchases for the future. So yeah, double standard and all that.

Here's an idea for a thread


How many of ole purchases is a success?

How do you rate ole's team building for the last 3 years?
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HM was arguably our best defender the last 2 years, AWB has given 6-7/10 performances consistently, James was 15m punt who did well and we earned a profit, Bruno has been class, Ighalo was meh but was a loan; Cavani has exceeded expectations, VDB - I can agree with you, Telles has been meh as well, but was a backup, Varane has been class so far, Ronaldo has been good (although we've lacked balance with him under Ole) and Sancho looks good.

If anything, our transfer success rate has been better than most teams in recent past
 
He is easily the weakest manager of the post Fergie era thus far. The man was so loyal to his inexperienced coaching staff that he allowed them (Carrick and McKenna chiefly) to take turns leading pre match briefings and taking training sessions while he and Phelan observed from the sidelines.

McKenna and Carrick's training sessions were said to be more suited for academy players and lacked variety and creativity. All in all he placed blind trust in the coaching staff and couldn't see past their shortcomings.

He also wasn't this great man manager many claimed he was just because he had cute pet names for his favorite players or always had good things to say about his squad. He alienated his bench/fringe players and most were unhappy. He meritlessly made Maguire captain and dithered too much on subs for long stretches during his time here due to his aforementioned distrust of his bench.

Appointing him held us back
 
anant said:
HM was arguably our best defender the last 2 years, AWB has given 6-7/10 performances consistently, James was 15m punt who did well and we earned a profit, Bruno has been class, Ighalo was meh but was a loan; Cavani has exceeded expectations, VDB - I can agree with you, Telles has been meh as well, but was a backup, Varane has been class so far, Ronaldo has been good (although we've lacked balance with him under Ole) and Sancho looks good.

If anything, our transfer success rate has been better than most teams in recent past
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https://www.redcafe.net/threads/harry-maguire-2021-22-performances.464092/

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/aaron-wan-bissaka-2021-22-performances.464095/page-35#post-28177293

sure, keep on bending realities
 
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