I agree about Rashford, just wanted to say there is more material to work with than DDG whose room for improvement doesn't exist.
Rashford is still this flawed player with selfish tendencies when the going gets tough.
Whilst you have a point, it is more to do with the relationship between players than being useful in Ten Hag's system. It has been patently obviously for a number of years now that De Gea and Maguire cannot play together, there is no relationship between them and they expect different things of one another; that's not to say one of them is any more at fault for that than the other, they are just poorly matched in terms of what they instinctively do and want from the other.I disagree. DDG has his flaws (which had always been there btw) but can be useful in ETH system assuming that he's played with the right players. Maguire simply can't play in ETH's system and with Varane being so injury prone we'll need to rely on our reserve CB more then we would in normal circumstances.
Keeper obviously isn't #1 priority. Striker has that spot absolutely locked down.I simply don't think that the GK is no 1 priority. We still hold the highest no of clean sheets in the EPL. Sure we rely heavily on defence for that. However while DDG can perform significantly better when playing alongside the likes of Varane, Martinez and probably Timber as opposed to Maguire can the same be said about Maguire? Would he be able to do well in a high line defence if he had a ball playing goalkeeper instead of DDG? Cause I can still see him messing up due to his lack of pace and awareness. He'd still ask Goalkeepers for the ball and being the senior CB he is (and captain) he would still be listened to.
I'd say let's get rid of those who had become a meme at this club. I am referring to the likes of Martial, Jones, Maguire and Sancho. Then once the standard had been raised then we can tackle those who had been meah ie the likes of AWB, DDG and co. Of course my argument changes completely if DDG refuse to take a significant pay cut.
Whilst you have a point, it is more to do with the relationship between players than being useful in Ten Hag's system. It has been patently obviously for a number of years now that De Gea and Maguire cannot play together, there is no relationship between them and they expect different things of one another; that's not to say one of them is any more at fault for that than the other, they are just poorly matched in terms of what they instinctively do and want from the other.
In terms of being useful for Ten Hag's system, I completely disagree. I posted the below on 30th March in his performance thread so the figures may have moved around slightly but the general premise remains true:
Talking of the defensive line, given that we've now got what should be a considered a reasonable defence for defending high up the pitch; our defensive average line height is the 3rd deepest in the entire division; with only Forest & Bournemouth deeper on average, and literally less than half a yard deeper at that. We've got a goalkeeper that, although vastly improved at sweeping behind his defenders this season, is still the fourth least likely goalkeeper in the league to intercept a ball in behind the defence. There is a clear link there whether people like De Gea or not. And then when you look at how Ten Hag wants us to play, which thus far has us playing more of a possession game than recent seasons when everyone is available, which is backed up by only City, Arsenal Liverpool, Brighton & Chelsea having higher average possession stats than us, the difference is that their average defensive lines are the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 7th highest in the league (with Newcastle being just behind us in the possession averages & 5th highest line). For completeness, the outlier in that is Brentford who have the 6th highest average line but lower midtable level average possession, but they have a goalkeeper who both sweeps high and progresses the ball exceptionally well. Possession and high lines go hand in hand, as teams that maintain possession will generally compress the play into higher areas of the pitch and look to play around teams in tighter spaces; we are hamstringing ourselves if we continue to play a such deep line and attempting to be a high possession team as we won't be able to compress the play, there will always be more space between players and passes will therefore be riskier (not to mention the space makes it more difficult to win the ball back quickly). I just don't see how that changes without the goalkeeper changing.
Essentially the general point being that it's impossible to play a high line with De Gea as while he's doing his best in terms of improving his game, he is still the fourth least likely goalkeeper in the league to deal with a ball in behind the defence & the second least likely in the league to deal with a cross into the box. You can't play a high line with a goalkeeper that wants to stay on his line, the two don't marry up and we'll always be making the game harder than it needs to be with him in goal.
Can he though Ten Haag is making too many allowances due to De Gea and he is still costing the team and we are hardly playing any progressive modern football , I am certain if De Gea is still in goal next season there would come a time where quality of Martinez and Varane would also eventually come under question as well .Maguire can only play in one system alone ie in a deep line defence. Put him in a high line defence and his lack of pace and his lack of football awareness will be exposed. DDG is not great for the modern game either. However he proved that he can do fairly well in ETH's system as long as he's played with defenders with actual brains. Ideally we replace them both however while DDG can play in ETH's system as long as he is surrounded with the right people around him, Maguire simply can't.
Maguire is better off playing for the typical English lead squad who play an old fashioned deep line defence and would try to hit in counter attack. Hopefully Southgate or Ole will return as managers in the EPL and will get him off our hands.
Keylor Navas is currently slumming it at Nottingham Forest on loan. No doubt he'll be available again in the summer, since they don't have an option to buy and he's not replacing Donnarumma. Would he be a worse option than De Gea?Unless there's a couple of world class keepers out there available for peanuts or on a free that I'm not aware of.
Why have you gone back round to our fifth choice centre back being the problem when my post was about the issues De Gea brings? Maguire needs to move on, it is clear but the reality is we will continue to struggle in certain games while De Gea is still our goalkeeper because of the multiple reasons highlighted in my post. De Gea can't play in Ten Hag's system, do you think he wants us playing with one of the deepest average lines in the league?! It's a major compromise at best.Maguire can only play in one system alone ie in a deep line defence. Put him in a high line defence and his lack of pace and his lack of football awareness will be exposed. DDG is not great for the modern game either. However he proved that he can do fairly well in ETH's system as long as he's played with defenders with actual brains. Ideally we replace them both however while DDG can play in ETH's system as long as he is surrounded with the right people around him, Maguire simply can't.
Maguire is better off playing for the typical English lead squad who play an old fashioned deep line defence and would try to hit in counter attack. Hopefully Southgate or Ole will return as managers in the EPL and will get him off our hands.
Keeper obviously isn't #1 priority. Striker has that spot absolutely locked down.
A fairly strong argument can be had that it's our #2 priority though. I'd put it about equal with a new central midfielder who can both partner and cover for Casemiro. Those are the three spots that absolutely need to be fixed if we want to truly step up to the top level again.
As for your comments about Maguire...he had the best form of his career during the period that he mostly had Henderson behind him and we were playing a higher line. He's also consistently been better at England than he has for us, and was better at Leicester than he has been for us. I'm certainly not saying it's all on De Gea (Maguire is a big boy and should be criticised for his own feck-ups), but I do think a lot of people don't realise how much extra pressure our entire defence gets put under because of De Gea.
I think it's very subjective and to me he was no way "comfortably better". Obviously better with his feet but we have conceded quite a few goals where most of us here were like "DDG would have saved it", which seems that people have already forgot about it. I would not be comfortable at all with Henderson being our main GK and having someone like Butland as a backup. It definitely is time to let DDG go but we must sign a replacement.The one season both De Gea and Henderson played a decent amount for us, Henderson was comfortably better both on the individual level and for the team as our entire defence instantly looked more solid than it had for years. De Gea has improved a bit on the individual level since then (more an indication of how bad he was that season rather than actually being good now), but I expect Henderson would still be better for the team as a whole. He's not even particularly good, but De Gea just creates shakiness throughout our entire defensive unit on top of his poor distribution hurting our possession game (Henderson isn't much better at the latter though to be fair).
I've never known a keeper make so many high profile mistakes and still be the number one at his respective club. He's literally had about 10 Karius moments and yet he still hasn't been replaced.
I haven't really watched Navas much (especially over the last few years) but he's largely got the same strengths and weaknesses as De Gea. Really not the type of keeper we should be looking at.Keylor Navas is currently slumming it at Nottingham Forest on loan. No doubt he'll be available again in the summer, since they don't have an option to buy and he's not replacing Donnarumma. Would he be a worse option than De Gea?
You make good points about Rashford. I still hope to see a bit more consistent playmaking in his game. He's showed before he could do it.Actually I don't think that there were little need to work with Rashy at all. All we needed to do was to hope that he fully heals from the injuries, we play him into a system that fits his strengths and we make sure that he gets proper training and rest. That's something we never given him under Ole.
DDG's time is close to an end. He might survive a season or two at best but if that's the case then it would be down on United having to tackle other pressing priorities.
It's also a system built around De Gea's weaknesses. His inability/refusal to act as a sweeper or claim crosses plays a huge part in why our defensive line has to be so deep. Probably more so than Maguire. Even this season when Maguire hasn't played very much and with a manager who from all reports strongly wants to play high up the field and on the front foot, we've ended up having one of the deepest lines in the league (I've seen a couple of people say recently it's actually the deepest). De Gea sitting so deep guarantees that there is more space behind the defenders to run into than pretty much any other team, which forces our defenders to sit deeper and fall back faster.Stats show that Leicester defence leaked less goals the year Maguire left then the two years prior to that.
The reason why Maguire did better with Leicester or England then he does with United under ETH is that Leicester/England play a very basic/defensive system which rely on a deep line defence. In such tight formation the issues surrounded his lack of awareness and pace can't really be exploited. That's a system built around Maguire's strengths. A high line will require Maguire to anticipate his opponents. Failure to do so is a problem as he lacks the pace to run back and cover for his mistakes. He simply doesn't have that in his locker
Why have you gone back round to our fifth choice centre back being the problem when my post was about the issues De Gea brings? Maguire needs to move on, it is clear but the reality is we will continue to struggle in certain games while De Gea is still our goalkeeper because of the multiple reasons highlighted in my post. De Gea can't play in Ten Hag's system, do you think he wants us playing with one of the deepest average lines in the league?! It's a major compromise at best.
And without wanting to get into the Maguire debate I completely disagree that he is best suited for a deep line defence. It's no coincidence his best football for us came with Henderson behind him when the defence played a couple of yards higher due to having a goalkeeper capable of leaving his line behind them.
It's also a system built around De Gea's weaknesses. His inability/refusal to act as a sweeper or claim crosses plays a huge part in why our defensive line has to be so deep. Probably more so than Maguire. Even this season when Maguire hasn't played very much and with a manager who from all reports strongly wants to play high up the field and on the front foot, we've ended up having one of the deepest lines in the league (I've seen a couple of people say recently it's actually the deepest). De Gea sitting so deep guarantees that there is more space behind the defenders to run into than pretty much any other team, which forces our defenders to sit deeper and fall back faster.
The "DDG would have saved it" crowd seem to have the memory of a goldfish. That season in particular he was making far more mistakes and letting in far more soft goals than Henderson did. Henderson came in and absolutely did mess up for three or four goals, but that was significantly less than what De Gea messed up during his time in goal. Looking at this season there have been plenty of goals we've conceded that if we'd had anyone else in goal people would be saying "De Gea would have saved it", but because it's De Gea that is conceding it they just forget about it the following week. It's why all the stats are saying that De Gea is having an average season in terms of shot stopping - yes he does make some brilliant saves (not as many as some make out though) but he also lets in a fairly similar amount of goals he should be stopping. They largely equal out.I think it's very subjective and to me he was no way "comfortably better". Obviously better with his feet but we have conceded quite a few goals where most of us here were like "DDG would have saved it", which seems that people have already forgot about it. I would not be comfortable at all with Henderson being our main GK and having someone like Butland as a backup. It definitely is time to let DDG go but we must sign a replacement.
He relies on defenders doing half his job for him, Martinez and Varane are good enough to do half his job for him, Maguire and Lindelof are not. That's hardly a positive. Neither is Manchester United having the fourth deepest defensive line in the entire league to cover his arse because he's petrified of leaving his line.DDG has played in ETH's system. He's our no 1 keeper and we currently have the highest amount of clean sheets. Is he perfect? Surely not. Should he be replaced? Ideally yes. Does he rely on defenders with actual brains to do well? Well most GK's do especially in a high line. Unfortunately the same can't be said about Maguire whose been underwhelming with any partner we've played him so far.
Henderson had barely ever played regular first team football because in the end DDG was able to reclaim his no 1 position. He is currently struggling to be Nottingham Forest no 1 keeper which kind of suggest that he's hardly that good either.
And my point is also simple. Neither of them can. And both have proven that quite obviously. Neither have a place here going forward, and in terms of the impact on the team the #1 keeper is obviously going to be a higher priority than a (by your words) 5th choice central defender.ETH had always played a high line defence. ETH also expect every player to be able to pass the ball under pressure which punishes DDG as well. Having said that my point is quite simple. DDG can play in ETH system if he is surrounded by the right players. Maguire simply can't. He is too slow and he's got zero football awareness.
Henderson has been injured. That's the only reason they signed Navas in the first place. I believe he's just got back into training, so watching Navas play doesn't suggest anything.DDG has played in ETH's system. He's our no 1 keeper and we currently have the highest amount of clean sheets. Is he perfect? Surely not. Should he be replaced? Ideally yes. Does he rely on defenders with actual brains to do well? Well most GK's do especially in a high line. Unfortunately the same can't be said about Maguire whose been underwhelming with any partner we've played him so far.
Henderson had barely ever played regular first team football because in the end DDG was able to reclaim his no 1 position. He then kicked a fuss to leave United only to end up watching Neves play football at Nottingham Forest. Which kind of suggest that he's not very good either
Well I'm not saying that he's a long-term option, which is kind of the point. I don't see the sense in signing De Gea up to another long-term contract on 200k a week when he's clearly not the answer. I'd rather have Navas on loan for a season and re-assess next summer (when hopefully the club will be sold and in a great financial position) than be stuck with De Gea for however many more years. He's certainly not worse than De Gea. Every time I've seen Forest play recently he seems to be their best player. Obviously there are different strengths required for a keeper at a lower level team getting peppered with shots all the time, but the guy's track record speaks for itself at a higher level. Real won three Champions Leagues with him in goal.I haven't really watched Navas much (especially over the last few years) but he's largely got the same strengths and weaknesses as De Gea. Really not the type of keeper we should be looking at.
Well I'm not saying that he's a long-term option, which is kind of the point. I don't see the sense in signing De Gea up to another long-term contract on 200k a week when he's clearly not the answer. I'd rather have Navas on loan for a season and re-assess next summer (when hopefully the club will be sold and in a great financial position) than be stuck with De Gea for however many more years. He's certainly not worse than De Gea. Every time I've seen Forest play recently he seems to be their best player. Obviously there are different strengths required for a keeper at a lower level team getting peppered with shots all the time, but the guy's track record speaks for itself at a higher level. Real won three Champions Leagues with him in goal.
Henderson has been injured. That's the only reason they signed Navas in the first place. I believe he's just got back into training, so watching Navas play doesn't suggest anything.
I would say it goes both ways. The "anyone, even the likes of Frazer Forster would be better" crowd is hardly any better. And I am not arguing about the obvious fact that DDG is not as good as he once was and ideally should be let go. But letting him go is the easiest part here, just not trigger an extension and it's done. However we must be absolutely certain that we will be able to get a replacement because I can bet that if we start next season with Henderson as our main GK, people will quickly wish we triggered that extension.The "DDG would have saved it" crowd seem to have the memory of a goldfish. That season in particular he was making far more mistakes and letting in far more soft goals than Henderson did. Henderson came in and absolutely did mess up for three or four goals, but that was significantly less than what De Gea messed up during his time in goal. Looking at this season there have been plenty of goals we've conceded that if we'd had anyone else in goal people would be saying "De Gea would have saved it", but because it's De Gea that is conceding it they just forget about it the following week. It's why all the stats are saying that De Gea is having an average season in terms of shot stopping - yes he does make some brilliant saves (not as many as some make out though) but he also lets in a fairly similar amount of goals he should be stopping. They largely equal out.
I fully expect the same thing to happen when we finally replace De Gea. Unless the keeper comes in and is instantly one of the best in the world, half the goals we concede will be met with "DDG would have saved it" by plenty of people, completely ignoring how many goals he is conceding that he could have done better on.
Oh, and Henderson isn't actually much (if any) better with his feet in terms of his distribution. The two possession-based things he is far better at though is his willingness to act as a sweeper and also his distribution with his quick throws.
If we can only spend a small amount on a keeper, I'd rather it be on a fairly cheap keeper who is a good all-rounder than another limited keeper who is past his best. The general feel from most Forest fans seem to be that they prefer our own Dean Henderson in goal than Navas, so that's saying something. For example, Raya will hopefully be available for quite cheap since he will only have one year left on his contract and is refusing to sign a new one.Well I'm not saying that he's a long-term option, which is kind of the point. I don't see the sense in signing De Gea up to another long-term contract on 200k a week when he's clearly not the answer. I'd rather have Navas on loan for a season and re-assess next summer (when hopefully the club will be sold and in a great financial position) than be stuck with De Gea for however many more years. He's certainly not worse than De Gea. Every time I've seen Forest play recently he seems to be their best player. Obviously there are different strengths required for a keeper at a lower level team getting peppered with shots all the time, but the guy's track record speaks for itself at a higher level. Real won three Champions Leagues with him in goal.
Having this poll right after last night's performance was always going to yield a landslide like we see in this poll.
But, he's not a top level keeper any more and renewing his contract on anywhere close to the wages he's currently on would be absurd. He was often our best player in a poor era, but while he can still produce some magic from time to time, he doesn't fit our system and is way past his best while becoming more and more error prone. I think replacing him is second only to signing a striker in terms of our priorities.
You mean folk that understand we can't spend £400-500m this summer and sign 7-8 top players?
So do you think we need a top centre forward and probably a back up? £100-150m+
Do we not need a top midfielder to play the role Eriksen's played this season and a back-up for Casemiro? £100-150m+
And we could definitely do with a top RB and 1 or 2 capable centres backs as back up to Varane and Martinez yes? £100m+
There's only so much money to go around.
How much would a top GK to replace DeGea cost?
I doubt anyone doesn't see the problems with DeGea but from 3 centre forwards this season we have about 10 goals from 50+ games. That's why we're no where near challenging for the league.
Everytime Casemiro is missing we look much weaker and more vulnerable as a team ditto Varane/Martinez.
Replacing DeGea is something we need to do but there's a limited transfer budget and only so many players you can sign in one transfer window and there are more pressing issues with this team.
