Scottish Politics

[altodevil]

Independence not happening at this rate. SNP too established to gain any more ground, everyone has an opinion on them. Best hope now is some kind of green wave going forward.

 

[Counterfactual]

Looks like Scotland is sticking with the SNP again. Love them or loathe them it's pretty clear that, for the majority, Scotland is moving further away from the political identify of the rest of the UK.

If some cnut could fix the roads and empty our bins more often that would be great, though.

I'm very impressed with the stranglehold the SNP has north of the border. Are Scots actually happy with them for doing wonders domestically, or is every other party "tainted" by not being the SNP?

 

[lefty_jakobz]

Looks like Scotland is sticking with the SNP again. Love them or loathe them it's pretty clear that, for the majority, Scotland is moving further away from the political identify of the rest of the UK.

If some cnut could fix the roads and empty our bins more often that would be great, though.

Im not a fan of them but still voted for them as whats the alternative?

 

[altodevil]

I'm very impressed with the stranglehold the SNP has north of the border. Are Scots actually happy with them for doing wonders domestically, or is every other party "tainted" by not being the SNP?

There's no alternative if you want to detach from the broken Westminster system. That and they are average in most other respects, with Sturgeon being a credible leader.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

I'm very impressed with the stranglehold the SNP has north of the border. Are Scots actually happy with them for doing wonders domestically, or is every other party "tainted" by not being the SNP?

The SNP have been monumentally shite in my constituency but they have two things going for them. The first is that they are able to answer questions quite well (Why is everything so shite? Because of X, y and z) and our MP is an approachable, well mannered and competent local. Whereas the Labour, Lib Dem and Tory lots are basically all just wankers.

 

[Counterfactual]

There's no alternative if you want to detach from the broken Westminster system. That and they are average in most other respects, with Sturgeon being a credible leader.

That's what I thought. I'm English, but lived in Dundee for several years. I didn't see the SNP do amazing things, they just won... seemingly by default. Politically, it's genius.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Im not a fan of them but still voted for them as whats the alternative?

I forgot to vote before work and couldn't be arsed after it because there was no way in hell the current MP, David Torrance, would've lost his seat. And I was right, he got 22.3% more than the second place Labour candidate. Tory candidate with a fifth of the SNP vote like it should be.

Fife is a cluster feck of a region but it's the council that are the problem as they ignore complaints (the head of road maintenance was in the papers last week complaining about folk whining on social media about the potholes. The fecking cheek. Fix the fecking roads you cnut). If you email Torrance you get a response by the end of the week.

 

[Reiver]

Im not a fan of them but still voted for them as whats the alternative?

I certainly felt like that when it came to the candidate vote, it was a choice of four: Labour - the party equivalent of a dog riddled with cancer that just needs put down; Conservative - even if the only other option was a steaming pile of shite, the shite would get my vote; Lib Dem - even they don't know what they stand for anymore; and SNP.

From what I've seen today, the level of tactical voting has been crazy - generally unionists voting for anyone as long it will keep the SNP out.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

I forgot to vote before work and couldn't be arsed after it because there was no way in hell the current MP, David Torrance, would've lost his seat. And I was right, he got 22.3% more than the second place Labour candidate. Tory candidate with a fifth of the SNP vote like it should be.

Fife is a cluster feck of a region but it's the council that are the problem as they ignore complaints (the head of road maintenance was in the papers last week complaining about folk whining on social media about the potholes. The fecking cheek. Fix the fecking roads you cnut). If you email Torrance you get a response by the end of the week.

Our region went from Red Tories back to the Blue ones its always been. Was hoping the SNP were going to somehow get a win here but no chance. They love their unionists here far too much

 

[lefty_jakobz]

I certainly felt like that when it came to the candidate vote, it was a choice of four: Labour - the party equivalent of a dog riddled with cancer that just needs put down; Conservative - even if the only other option was a steaming pile of shite, the shite would get my vote; Lib Dem - even they don't know what they stand for anymore; and SNP.

From what I've seen today, the level of tactical voting has been crazy - generally unionists voting for anyone as long it will keep the SNP out.

The new Leader of Labour did fairly well in the debates (apart from the last one) but other than that hes got a chance in hell of being voted in. Seems most just vote for SNP as theres very little else to choose. Unless youre anti- independence then you choose the unionist parties.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Our region went from Red Tories back to the Blue ones its always been. Was hoping the SNP were going to somehow get a win here but no chance. They love their unionists here far too much

Dumfries?

 

[lefty_jakobz]

Dumfries?

East Renfrewshire

 

[Tincanalley]

Looks like there will be - between SNP and Greens - an overall majority in favour of a vote on Scottish independence. I’m sure the next years will bring a new sharpness to the debate. What would an independent Scotland look like? Being in the trading area with Europe - probably in the Eurozone. A land border at Hadrian’s Wall?

Other thoughts: England Tory forever...

 

[sun_tzu]

Looks like there will be - between SNP and Greens - an overall majority in favour of a vote on Scottish independence. I’m sure the next years will bring a new sharpness to the debate. What would an independent Scotland look like? Being in the trading area with Europe - probably in the Eurozone. A land border at Hadrian’s Wall?

Other thoughts: England Tory forever...

If they were in the eu then yeah I think land border is inevitable... probably using the euro as well?

No sure if that might be enough to actually swing the vote towards remaining in the UK?

 

[groovyalbert]

Looks like there will be - between SNP and Greens - an overall majority in favour of a vote on Scottish independence. I’m sure the next years will bring a new sharpness to the debate. What would an independent Scotland look like? Being in the trading area with Europe - probably in the Eurozone. A land border at Hadrian’s Wall?

Other thoughts: England Tory forever...

Is it possible for Scotland to join the Euro without having to go through an economic shitestorm in the short-run first? And wouldn't Spain just block their entrance due to implications for Catalan?

 

[Tincanalley]

If they were in the eu then yeah I think land border is inevitable... probably using the euro as well?

No sure if that might be enough to actually swing the vote towards remaining in the UK?

I wonder if Tory strategists are thinking of having a Scottish independence referendum sooner rather than later. If it was to be held now and lost - it would surely be a generation before you could go again. On the other hand, Boris having to say no to it repeatedly, surely creates a greater yearning for self determination.

 

[Tincanalley]

Aberdeenshire West - Tories hold the seat - no overall majority for SNP. Not unexpected.

 

[sun_tzu]

I wonder if Tory strategists are thinking of having a Scottish independence referendum sooner rather than later. If it was to be held now and lost - it would surely be a generation before you could go again. On the other hand, Boris having to say no to it repeatedly, surely creates a greater yearning for self determination.

I'm more surprised the conservatives are not backing the referendum... would give them such an advantage at Westminster.

Think sturgeon has said end of 2023... which accounts for legislation in Hollyrood and a court case if (when) boris tells her to f off

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Aberdeenshire West - Tories hold the seat - no overall majority for SNP. Not unexpected.

Nope not unexpected but looking at the way it's being reported in the British press you'd think that meant that the SNP are losing tons of votes this time around and that PR isn't a thing up here.

Will be interesting to see what the Greens chances are.

 

[Counterfactual]

I wonder if Tory strategists are thinking of having a Scottish independence referendum sooner rather than later. If it was to be held now and lost - it would surely be a generation before you could go again. On the other hand, Boris having to say no to it repeatedly, surely creates a greater yearning for self determination.

I don't think so.

I think it's a win-win for the SNP...

1: Boris accepts another IndyRef, which sets a precedent for a vote ~every 10 years.
2: Boris turns it down, which boosts support for independence and makes turning the next request down more difficult.

The SNP keep asking until they get and win an IndyRef.

 

[Reiver]

Nope not unexpected but looking at the way it's being reported in the British press you'd think that meant that the SNP are losing tons of votes this time around and that PR isn't a thing up here.

Will be interesting to see what the Greens chances are.

Somewhere between 7-9 seats is being predicted for the Greens, I think. Certainly an overall majority of parties in favour of independence.

 

[Tincanalley]

Just thinking aloud. Brexit is an English Tory concoction. They never considered the impact on the other parts. Now the proponents of that movement - a kind of mythical search for past glories - have to speak to the regions they ignored, and in which they have only very modest representation. What can they say? They can say that only England’s opinion matters, like always. We won’t allow you to decide your own future.

But in Ireland the pathway to self determination is laid out in the Good Friday agreement. There is a precedent in Scotland - a vote was held seven or eight years ago. Eventual independence seems almost unstoppable, if current trends continue; Tories dominant in England and SNP/Greens in Scotland.

One way back would be to chart alternative paths for the UK. For instance the possibility to undo Brexit at some time in the future.

‘Britin’ cannot happen if Scotland breaks away. It’s possible that Brexit becomes England-exit, or the isolation of some yet to be named entity made of Wales and England.

 

[MoskvaRed]

It would be fascinating to see what would happen at Indy Ref 2. On the one hand, you have the argument that England has drifted off into a nationalist, reactionary direction, dragging Scotland out of the EU in the process. On the other hand, much of the SNP approach reminds me of the “forget the details, it’ll be alright on the night” stuff we heard from Brexiteers. If I were Scottish, I’d probably on balance go for it but, even before getting into details like currencies, I do wonder what the country’s big selling point will be. Ireland has a 30 year head start on the English-speaking, business friendly EU country role.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

It would be fascinating to see what would happen at Indy Ref 2. On the one hand, you have the argument that England has drifted off into a nationalist, reactionary direction, dragging Scotland out of the EU in the process. On the other hand, much of the SNP approach reminds me of the “forget the details, it’ll be alright on the night” stuff we heard from Brexiteers. If I were Scottish, I’d probably on balance go for it but, even before getting into details like currencies, I do wonder what the country’s big selling point will be. Ireland has a 30 year head start on the English-speaking, business friendly EU country role.

It's a roll of the dice isn't it? On one hand you have the risk of Scotland becoming a poorer country and on the other you have the risk of Scotland becoming more divided with what Britain as a whole stands for and feeling more ignored.

 

[owlo]

It would be fascinating to see what would happen at Indy Ref 2. On the one hand, you have the argument that England has drifted off into a nationalist, reactionary direction, dragging Scotland out of the EU in the process. On the other hand, much of the SNP approach reminds me of the “forget the details, it’ll be alright on the night” stuff we heard from Brexiteers. If I were Scottish, I’d probably on balance go for it but, even before getting into details like currencies, I do wonder what the country’s big selling point will be. Ireland has a 30 year head start on the English-speaking, business friendly EU country role.

I'm pro-referendum but would vote to stay in the union. Currently there's just no real plan to be an independent country and I think many people want to see one before voting for it. Feck the tories taking away my self determination, but I'd rather be the UK's bitch than destitute.

As an aside their currency proposals are laughable. The only real choice would be joining the euro and basing the country on the USD/EUR pre-approval. Trying to roll with GBP whilst negotiating with a powerful and vindictive UK government would be suicidal.

I'd love to see a new white paper on the economics of independence, especially a nearly oil-free one. But obviously the SNP won't dream of producing it because they know exactly how bleak it would be.

It could be decent, but every attempt has been half assed and barely cogent. There are a lot of advantages scotland could have other than the old brexit like tropes.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

I'd love to see a new white paper on the economics of independence, especially a nearly oil-free one. But obviously the SNP won't dream of producing it because they know exactly how bleak it would be.

It wouldn't be bleak at all. We can bag and sell our wind energy all around the world, hand out free prescriptions to travelling English merchants who deliver our monthly rations of bread and water, haggis fighting pits would no longer be outlawed by the Queen's presence, etc.

 

[Tincanalley]

It's a roll of the dice isn't it? On one hand you have the risk of Scotland becoming a poorer country and on the other you have the risk of Scotland becoming more divided with what Britain as a whole stands for and feeling more ignored.

What does Britain as a whole stand for?

 

[Mr Pigeon]

What does Britain as a whole stand for?

Judging by the recent elections a Tory government who are generally anti-immigration and pro-big business. And Scotland voted to remain in the EU and yet here we are.

 

[Cheimoon]

Is it possible for Scotland to join the Euro without having to go through an economic shitestorm in the short-run first? And wouldn't Spain just block their entrance due to implications for Catalan?

I don't know about the economic shitstorm, but Scotland wouldn't be able to start applying for EU membership before it's actually independent, so there would always be a period without both the UK and the EU. And as you say, EU membership isn't a given because of Spain's likely opposition to deter Catalonia; but I don't think they'd keep that up very long. I mean, they'll certainly block any talks pre-independence, but continuing to do so post-independence for a protracted period would make no sense.

 

[Reiver]

Overall, a good result for pro-independence parties. I don't mind the SNP not getting a majority as it means they will need to continue to negotiate with other parties, or at least the Greens. Think they will continue to operate as a minority Government rather than form a coalition but we'll see.
Something somewhere is going to have to give on indyref2. Both the SNP and Johnson quite bullish in their stances and what their mandate is (if I never hear that word again, that's fine by me). I'll be surprised if Sturgeon can get it done by year 2 of the new Government, like she suggested.
If there was another vote on independence... pre- Covid polling was looking promising from a Nationalist perspective. Less so now, it's back to approximately 50-50. I think where the Nationalists would end up losing it, again, is over the economy, loss of the Pound etc. Still, the full whirlwind of Brexit is still to be reaped.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Overall, a good result for pro-independence parties. I don't mind the SNP not getting a majority as it means they will need to continue to negotiate with other parties, or at least the Greens. Think they will continue to operate as a minority Government rather than form a coalition but we'll see.
Something somewhere is going to have to give on indyref2. Both the SNP and Johnson quite bullish in their stances and what their mandate is (if I never hear that word again, that's fine by me). I'll be surprised if Sturgeon can get it done by year 2 of the new Government, like she suggested.
If there was another vote on independence... pre- Covid polling was looking promising from a Nationalist perspective. Less so now, it's back to approximately 50-50. I think where the Nationalists would end up losing it, again, is over the economy, loss of the Pound etc. Still, the full whirlwind of Brexit is still to be reaped.

If the SNP can come up with an answer to the economic question that isn't "we have oil Iol" then they might stand a chance. Difficult question to answer, though.

They can of course try and energise the non voters who just want independence, and get them . I feel that where Brexit went through where IndyRef didn't was because the Brexit movement was so damn tribal. It was flag waving and roast dinner nonsense that didn't ask or answer questions. It helps that the silent No voters that surprised a lot of folk won't be as silent this time. They'll feel emboldened by current events, and be more than happy to shout that they're No voters. That makes them easier to target and try to sway.

I still think any vote will end up being No, though. Nothing in recent years has gone the way I think it will.

 

[Member 55443]

To me it is really sad that some of these people in Scotland do not see the greatness of our historic union and keep trying to ruin it. The older I get the less 'English' and more 'British' I feel. I really don't understand what there is to gain, selfish politicians aside. We are so intertwined in every way. The way they talk about it is as if 90% of Scotland wanted to stay in the EU and now wants independence. It's utter nonsense and such a shame to waste so much time and energy on compared to what they could and should be doing.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

To me it is really sad that some of these people in Scotland do not see the greatness of our historic union and keep trying to ruin it. The older I get the less 'English' and more 'British' I feel. I really don't understand what there is to gain, selfish politicians aside. We are so intertwined in every way. The way they talk about it is as if 90% of Scotland wanted to stay in the EU and now wants independence. It's utter nonsense and such a shame to waste so much time and energy on compared to what they could and should be doing.

With respect, the "historic union" is a luxury to a lot of people. Saying we're intertwined sounds nice and rosey but when England votes en masses for conservative politics and to leave the EU, when Scotland overwhelmingly votes the opposite, it sort of highlights just how different we are.

Also worth noting that it's easier to feel a part of something when you're a part of the majority instead of the minority. I've personally heard someone saying similar things like you have about how we're better together followed by vitriol in the form of "oh, you Scots always complain no matter what". Up and down the entire UK there are regions that have been ignored or mocked by Westminster for decades who don't really have the time to sit and admire the wondrous union that we apparently have.

 

[africanspur]

To me it is really sad that some of these people in Scotland do not see the greatness of our historic union and keep trying to ruin it. The older I get the less 'English' and more 'British' I feel. I really don't understand what there is to gain, selfish politicians aside. We are so intertwined in every way. The way they talk about it is as if 90% of Scotland wanted to stay in the EU and now wants independence. It's utter nonsense and such a shame to waste so much time and energy on compared to what they could and should be doing.

I mean....62% voted to stay in the EU and literally every single constituency seat voted to remain. Not difficult to see why they're a bit pissed about Brexit and why they feel they're being dragged out against their will. Probably also not helped by the fact the English are currently on a 10 year+ streak of voting in a bunch of hateful cnuts almost regardless of how they perform in government.

I'm of the opinion that there should be another referendum, which I hope would be a no (though if I was Scottish, I'd consider a yes vote) and that will be the end of it for a generation. You can't be having independence referenda every 5-10 years.

Hopefully with Brexit and Scottish independence both not as big a factor in politics anymore, we could return to a political system that isn't essentially a one party state.

 

[Counterfactual]

I mean....62% voted to stay in the EU and literally every single constituency seat voted to remain. Not difficult to see why they're a bit pissed about Brexit and why they feel they're being dragged out against their will. Probably also not helped by the fact the English are currently on a 10 year+ streak of voting in a bunch of hateful cnuts almost regardless of how they perform in government.

I'm of the opinion that there should be another referendum, which I hope would be a no (though if I was Scottish, I'd consider a yes vote) and that will be the end of it for a generation. You can't be having independence referenda every 5-10 years.

Hopefully with Brexit and Scottish independence both not as big a factor in politics anymore, we could return to a political system that isn't essentially a one party state.

I think it's hopelessly naive to think you can grant another IndyRef and expect that if it's a "no" vote it'll be "the end of it for a generation". Why would a second one be that, but not the first? If anything, you'll set a precedent that a referendum every 10 years is acceptable.

 

[altodevil]

Massive electoral reform at Westminster is needed for me to consider the UK a good option long term. That and English voters stop being taken as fools.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I think it's hopelessly naive to think you can grant another IndyRef and expect that if it's a "no" vote it'll be "the end of it for a generation". Why would a second one be that, but not the first? If anything, you'll set a precedent that a referendum every 10 years is acceptable.

completely agree. If it wasn’t Brexit, there would be another crux the SNP would be leaning on as a reason for IndyRef2.

it’s literally their policy. If there is another referendum, and they lose, they will push for a third - and it would only end by either leaving the union or of the SNP lose power.

 

[Member 55443]

With respect, the "historic union" is a luxury to a lot of people. Saying we're intertwined sounds nice and rosey but when England votes en masses for conservative politics and to leave the EU, when Scotland overwhelmingly votes the opposite, it sort of highlights just how different we are.

Also worth noting that it's easier to feel a part of something when you're a part of the majority instead of the minority. I've personally heard someone saying similar things like you have about how we're better together followed by vitriol in the form of "oh, you Scots always complain no matter what". Up and down the entire UK there are regions that have been ignored or mocked by Westminster for decades who don't really have the time to sit and admire the wondrous union that we apparently have.

I don't buy this Westminster narrative that gets peddled most frequently, you'd think England is the land of milk and honey the way people talk about it. A lot of London's benefits are happenstance from being the capital and an international city with all the external investment that brings. Remove London from the equation and what other areas of the entire UK aren't being 'ignored' by comparison to suggest that Scotland is getting a bad deal somehow? The narrative of being ignored by Westminster is hard to justify. Plenty of London even is as much of a shitehole as the rest of the country too believe me. No vitriol from me, on the contrary I'd say that all comes from the other side a bit like small man syndrome.

I just like the unique shared history and culture our countries have. Years ago a country leaving the UK always seemed unthinkable to me and I'm sure others, perhaps I was just young and naive. Still don't see much substance on how it would be better for Scotland to be independent, 90% of the propaganda is just anti-toryman. Thought we just had once in a generation referendum on that one anyway!

 

[Counterfactual]

Massive electoral reform at Westminster is needed for me to consider the UK a good option long term. That and English voters stop being taken as fools.

What kind of Westminster reform, and why are English voters taken for fools?

 

[africanspur]

I think it's hopelessly naive to think you can grant another IndyRef and expect that if it's a "no" vote it'll be "the end of it for a generation". Why would a second one be that, but not the first? If anything, you'll set a precedent that a referendum every 10 years is acceptable.

Probably in the same way that the momentum has kind of dissipated for independence in Quebec after 2 independence referendums.

I'm not saying the SNP won't still be working for independence. That is literally the very essence of their party. But after 2 referenda (if both unsuccessful), with no new triggers after Brexit, what are the justifications going to be? The party will still exist, will srtill always have a hardcore of support, may even carry on doing a good job. But I imagine the support will decrease a bit and votes will increase to other parties.

Literally no country is going to allow a part of their territory to have a referendum on independence every 10 years, regardless of how much they may agitate for it. I don't believe Quebec has had a referendum since 95, despite having 2 in 15 years.