Scottish Politics

Mr Pigeon said:
Caf forget that deep down tooktook loudmouth Scotsman who knows bugger all.

I think @Reiver and @Cheimoon mentioned the federal system. That's something I could genuinely see working well across the UK. Not just Scotland but in the North of England, Midlands, Wales, Northern Ireland etc. People like me aren't against the union, far from it. It's something to be proud of but only if it suits everyone, and it clearly doesn't. Too many in the country (UK) feel ignored by a centralised government that moves further and further away from the cultural and social identities that make up the nation.

For example, we're stuck with whatever immigration laws Westminster pass and it looks like we're becoming more and more isolationist. I think polling shows that Scotland supports more immigration, and it makes sense. There's obviously patches where you get racist loons waving their saltires about but for the most part, at least in my area, communities aren't sectioned off by nationality. You're either a gid cnut or a plain old cnut, regardless of where your family is from.
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Labour have suggested on a few occasions now they would potentially agree to more powers for the Scottish Government. During and after the recent vote, I heard a few of their party talking about it, specifically increased borrowing powers. Arguably, they have the most ambitious plans for Covid recovery and they would need more borrowing to pay for it.
A more federal Scotland could be the way to find a middle ground between reasonable Unionists and Nationalists. There's a lunatic fringe in both camps who won't have it. Could, like you say, work well across the UK. Current Tory government is centralising more power in Westminster though, so it doesn't seem likely.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Your view or Scotland's view of what is fair isn't the only view though is it? Your fairly simple stance for example was not one the EU took during Brexit negotiations.

Scotland's view would only be the final say under a UDI.

If Sturgeon rules out UDI which she has then its Westminster's view of what is and isn't fair that is going to count. I'm not saying they are going to take down every school brick by brick and transport them to England but this quaint idea that you leave and decide your share of the furniture, which you take with you, won't happen. Assets the rest of the UK would need to pay to replace falls in the we are not paying for Scottish independence category.

How much is it to build a new nuclear submarine base for example?

All I am outlining is the horrendous mess of unspecified details the SNP are now responsible for clearing up and the eye watering potential costs they have exposed Scotland to and it will be Scotland that pays for it.

The rest of the UK didn't vote for this we will not be left in anyway holding the bag for it.
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My “fairly simple stance“ is a legal one. It’s all “ours” or it’s not. Try going into a divorce saying the house is all yours, but the other part pays the mortgage.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
How much is it to build a new nuclear submarine base for example?
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Would depend where you built it

And that is a whole other question... but if a lease and access couldn't be agreed then France or USA in the short term probably

Longer term... well apparently not that many options in the UK with the right kind of water access and lack of people or businesses

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/26/trident-overseas-or-halted-scotland-independence

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28009977
 
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Norman Brownbutter said:
My “fairly simple stance“ is a legal one. It’s all “ours” or it’s not. Try going into a divorce saying the house is all yours, but the other part pays the mortgage.
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Scotland isn't divorcing the rest of the UK though. There is no judge to sit and rule on specifics just the two sides. Scotland has decided to leave and live in the shed at the top of the garden, and is out voted 10-1 by the rest of the people remaining in the house. I might be missing something but I don't see the play here.

If it would cost for example everyone in the UK 1000 pounds per year for say 20 years to have Scottish independence. Then it should cost every one in Scotland 10'000 pounds per year for 20 years to have Scottish independence and the rest of the UK nothing. The rest of the UK didn't vote to leave and doesn't accept Scotland's right to vote money out of our pockets.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Scotland isn't divorcing the rest of the UK though. There is no judge to sit and rule on specifics just the two sides. Scotland has decided to leave and live in the shed at the top of the garden, and is out voted 10-1 by the rest of the people remaining in the house. I might be missing something but I don't see the play here.

If it would cost for example everyone in the UK 1000 pounds per year for say 20 years to have Scottish independence. Then it should cost every one in Scotland 10'000 pounds per year for 20 years to have Scottish independence and the rest of the UK nothing. The rest of the UK didn't vote to leave and doesn't accept Scotland's right to vote money out of our pockets.
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Will England be stumping up for all the brexit losses then?
 
altodevil said:
Will England be stumping up for all the brexit losses then?
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No, because everyone got a vote in that referendum, counting ounce across the UK. On the other hand any benefits that accrue would be shared even with those like me who didn't vote leave. I know it sucks but that is democracy when everyone gets a vote the loser is out voted and the majority position is taken.

Scottish independence is a Scottish only thing, fair enough, I'm not paying anything for it then.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
No, because everyone got a vote in that referendum, counting ounce across the UK. On the other hand any benefits that accrue would be shared even with those like me who didn't vote leave. I know it sucks but that is democracy when everyone gets a vote the loser is out voted and the majority position is taken.

Scottish independence is a Scottish only thing, fair enough, I'm not paying anything for it then.
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UK democracy is a failed democracy. The last time a party got more than 50% of votes cast was 1931, and yet we have been railroaded by majorities since then, with little to no compromise or co-operation.
 
altodevil said:
UK democracy is a failed democracy. The last time a party got more than 50% of votes cast was 1931, and yet we have been railroaded by majorities since then, with little to no compromise or co-operation.
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That is a broader debate about voting systems. All I will say is that there are ways to change that system but so far not enough people support changing it . I guess if you are Scottish you will be done with the House of Lords and FPTP come independence.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
No, because everyone got a vote in that referendum, counting ounce across the UK. On the other hand any benefits that accrue would be shared even with those like me who didn't vote leave. I know it sucks but that is democracy when everyone gets a vote the loser is out voted and the majority position is taken.

Scottish independence is a Scottish only thing, fair enough, I'm not paying anything for it then.
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I wonder how much this thinking played a part during brexit when we were forcing the main landers to pay for our national bigotry? Because according to you, everyone in Europe should have had a vote on that.
 
Norman Brownbutter said:
I wonder how much this thinking played a part during brexit when we were forcing the main landers to pay for our national bigotry? Because according to you, everyone in Europe should have had a vote on that.
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I think not wanting to foot the bill for the EU certainly contributed significantly to the debate. The EU set up a legal process for countries that wanted to leave it. That is the difference here.

I don't think that England should have a vote on Scottish independence and the rest of the EU shouldn't have had a vote on Brexit.

The interesting thing I find in all of this is the arguments are now reversed with the SNP making Brexit like points while the rest of the UK make EU type demands.
 
hobbers said:
We've got a population that's aging at an even faster rate than England and Wales, which is why immigration is desperately needed in Scotland more than elsewhere. It's probably the single best reason to want to rejoin the EU and get back free movement.

Bit of a catch-22. We need more immigration to reduce the budget deficit in the long run, but the budget deficit as it is might stop us getting back into the EU, were we to become independent.
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The budget deficit thing is a bit of an unknown. Scotland paid interest on the UK deficit for many years when it was in surplus. Would probably play out in a weird way.

sun_tzu said:
Would depend where you built it

And that is a whole other question... but if a lease and access couldn't be agreed then France or USA in the short term probably

Longer term... well apparently not that many options in the UK with the right kind of water access and lack of people or businesses

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/26/trident-overseas-or-halted-scotland-independence

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28009977
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Probably a land lease kinda thing, like how the US screwed the UK in wwii. Give us 10 old destroyers for our new navy and you can have the base for 50 years. A definite bargaining chip though. Water security as a whole for the UK minus Scotland is an issue.
 
owlo said:
Probably a land lease kinda thing, like how the US screwed the UK in wwii. Give us 10 old destroyers for our new navy and you can have the base for 50 years. A definite bargaining chip though. Water security as a whole for the UK minus Scotland is an issue.
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Not if the SNP refuse to have Trident in Scotland...

8) With independence, we can get rid of Trident in Scotland
https://www.snp.org/tridentfacts/
 
groovyalbert said:
how can Scotland potentially start their own currency - and have it valued as being competitive with both the pound and euro - whilst not relying on their most essential export (... after whisky)??
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I have a limited understanding of economy, so forgive me if it's silly, but would having a currency valued lower than the pound and euro necessarily be a bad thing for Scotland? I thought it was quite useful for export-based economies?
 
Counterfactual said:
Not if the SNP refuse to have Trident in Scotland...

8) With independence, we can get rid of Trident in Scotland
https://www.snp.org/tridentfacts/
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There's wishing and hoping, and reality. Having no naval base as a red line entering negotiations would be suicidal. More likely they made a song and dance for the benefit of the electorate, then exacted a price for it staying there.
 
owlo said:
There's wishing and hoping, and reality. Having no naval base as a red line entering negotiations would be suicidal. More likely they made a song and dance for the benefit of the electorate, then exacted a price for it staying there.
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or tstaying there in the medium term e.g. they agree say a 25 year lease whoch allows the MOD to redevelop a base elsewhere whilst maintaining operational capacity with at the end of the 25 years the subs / nukes leaving and long term the objective being achieved but having extracted probably some pretty decent concessions in the rest of the negotations for the lease
 
sun_tzu said:
or tstaying there in the medium term e.g. they agree say a 25 year lease whoch allows the MOD to redevelop a base elsewhere whilst maintaining operational capacity with at the end of the 25 years the subs / nukes leaving and long term the objective being achieved but having extracted probably some pretty decent concessions in the rest of the negotations for the lease
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Yea could see that.. and then the medium term turns into long term etc.... Extract what you can, play the 'oh we're only doing it for the economy/people' card, and carry on. (Land Lease was in WWII for some crappy outdated destroyers, and they are still here!)
 
owlo said:
Yea could see that.. and then the medium term turns into long term etc.... Extract what you can, play the 'oh we're only doing it for the economy/people' card, and carry on. (Land Lease was in WWII for some crappy outdated destroyers, and they are still here!)
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I think the MOD and UK government would be keen to get the nukes back on UK land (or at least Uk waters) once they could redevelop a suitable base... not to say thwy wouldnt want to keep the base for something else non nuclear though (eg maintenence) on a lease agreement ... afterall there is a very bespoke and expensive bit of infrastructure there so it would probably make sense to all involved it had some use / delivered some value
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
I think not wanting to foot the bill for the EU certainly contributed significantly to the debate. The EU set up a legal process for countries that wanted to leave it. That is the difference here.

I don't think that England should have a vote on Scottish independence and the rest of the EU shouldn't have had a vote on Brexit.

The interesting thing I find in all of this is the arguments are now reversed with the SNP making Brexit like points while the rest of the UK make EU type demands.
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it was already reversed, mate. Remember the indy ref came first. All the points made for Scottish independence were valid for Scotland, not so much for brexit which is why they sounded dumb. Scotland is not an entity to itself. Westminster dictates, as does the English voter. The U.K. never had had any issues of being told what to do by Brussels. Unless you wanna count things like human rights? The EU is an actual partnership with everyone have a fair say and fair vote. With the U.K., where England leads the rest must follow. Even when we don’t want to.

Scotland doesn’t have a voice in the U.K. Something that was made crystal clear with EVEL. It sounds on paper like it’s just something to address English only issues. But the reality is that it Barr’s any MP serving a Scottish constituency from becoming prime minister. Funny how that happened right after Gordon Brown talked about Scotland leading the U.K.

When all is said and done, the Scottish vote is worthless. And yes, we different. Scotland is more a socialist leaning country. England more capitalist leaning. And because the English voters outnumbers Scottish voters 10 to 1 we don’t get out pick. Ever. And to turn it the other way and have Scottish votes mean more the English votes is no solution as it’s that’s unfair to the English. So what is the solution? What can be done to make this an actual United Kingdom? I tell you what the solution isnt. It is t telling Scotland what it can and can’t do. And it sure as shit isnt some absentee prime ministry with stupid hair telling us that our democratic rights mean feck all. Because all that does is proves the point for independence. No matter how hard it is, and I’m under no illusions. It will be hard. But it’s worth it if for no other reason than never to have to listen to some fat rich cnut tell us what’s what and not have the voting power to boot him the feck out of his position.

So if you, and anyone else, want to make the case for Scotland to stay. Make it more appealing for us to stay. He’ll make it more appealing for everyone. I’m sure the north of England has a lot of the sam concerns as Scotland but with no means to break away from Westminster. If the subject of independence is ever to be finally out to bed, then things have to change. Because how it works now isn’t working for a lot of people. And not just Scotland.
 
sun_tzu said:
I think the MOD and UK government would be keen to get the nukes back on UK land (or at least Uk waters) once they could redevelop a suitable base... not to say thwy wouldnt want to keep the base for something else non nuclear though (eg maintenence) on a lease agreement ... afterall there is a very bespoke and expensive bit of infrastructure there so it would probably make sense to all involved it had some use / delivered some value
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It might be better to have a shiny new one in England which Scotland pays for as an exceptional cost sustained due to SI.
 
Norman Brownbutter said:
it was already reversed, mate. Remember the indy ref came first. All the points made for Scottish independence were valid for Scotland, not so much for brexit which is why they sounded dumb. Scotland is not an entity to itself. Westminster dictates, as does the English voter. The U.K. never had had any issues of being told what to do by Brussels. Unless you wanna count things like human rights? The EU is an actual partnership with everyone have a fair say and fair vote. With the U.K., where England leads the rest must follow. Even when we don’t want to.

Scotland doesn’t have a voice in the U.K. Something that was made crystal clear with EVEL. It sounds on paper like it’s just something to address English only issues. But the reality is that it Barr’s any MP serving a Scottish constituency from becoming prime minister. Funny how that happened right after Gordon Brown talked about Scotland leading the U.K.

When all is said and done, the Scottish vote is worthless. And yes, we different. Scotland is more a socialist leaning country. England more capitalist leaning. And because the English voters outnumbers Scottish voters 10 to 1 we don’t get out pick. Ever. And to turn it the other way and have Scottish votes mean more the English votes is no solution as it’s that’s unfair to the English. So what is the solution? What can be done to make this an actual United Kingdom? I tell you what the solution isnt. It is t telling Scotland what it can and can’t do. And it sure as shit isnt some absentee prime ministry with stupid hair telling us that our democratic rights mean feck all. Because all that does is proves the point for independence. No matter how hard it is, and I’m under no illusions. It will be hard. But it’s worth it if for no other reason than never to have to listen to some fat rich cnut tell us what’s what and not have the voting power to boot him the feck out of his position.

So if you, and anyone else, want to make the case for Scotland to stay. Make it more appealing for us to stay. He’ll make it more appealing for everyone. I’m sure the north of England has a lot of the sam concerns as Scotland but with no means to break away from Westminster. If the subject of independence is ever to be finally out to bed, then things have to change. Because how it works now isn’t working for a lot of people. And not just Scotland.
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No I will pass on that. You voted to leave so you get to live with your choice and pay for it like all independent nations do.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
No I will pass on that. You voted to leave so you get to live with your choice and pay for it like all independent nations do.
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I haven’t voted for anything as there’s nothing to vote on. what are you talking about? But clearly you just have a problem with Scottish people. And people wonder why some of us want to leave. “Better together” is a load of shit. A nonsense made up for those the English can control. When they cant control it, it’s brexit time.
 
"stay in the union and shut up, otherwise you can leave with no assets but still have to pay for the debt."

Grandstanding at its finest but fortunately, for as bad as politicians are, decisions aren't made by some overly aggressive anonymous arse on a football forum.

I remember the same grandstanding with Brexit. "Oh, WE'LL tell them EXACTLY how things are going to play out and the EU just has to ACCEPT it." Meanwhile, in the real world where real people have to make real decisions, the result of Brexit was.....FECK all.
 
It shouldn't be too much for Scotland to ask Westminster, given the current political climate in the country, to have a more constructive response than just denying a second independence referendum. Ok, fine - but the divisions are deep and here to stay if things stay as they are.
I genuinely don't think Boris gives two hoots about Scotland on a personal level. What I do think he cares about is how his leadership will be seen by posterity. And the Churchillian image he's tried to foster with Brexit won't look good if he's the man in charge when the Union is broken up.
All this talk about who pays for Independence - should there ever be a yes vote for it, I sincerely hope Westminster send the same negotiators as they did to the EU for Brexit; I'm sure working out a deal on Scotland's future relationship with England would prove to be one of the easiest in human history.
 
Norman Brownbutter said:
I haven’t voted for anything as there’s nothing to vote on. what are you talking about? But clearly you just have a problem with Scottish people. And people wonder why some of us want to leave. “Better together” is a load of shit. A nonsense made up for those the English can control. When they cant control it, it’s brexit time.
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The majority of Scotland just voted for a new parliament returning parties with independence as a key policy commitment. Or did I just imagine that?

I don't have anything against Scottish people and if they want to leave the union then I don't have a problem with that it isn't up to me. I just don't want to be paying for it. I am obviously upsetting you so I will leave it there.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
The majority of Scotland just voted for a new parliament returning parties with independence as a key policy commitment. Or did I just imagine that?

I don't have anything against Scottish people and if they want to leave the union then I don't have a problem with that it isn't up to me. I just don't want to be paying for it. I am obviously upsetting you so I will leave it there.
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:lol: your bigotry isn’t upsetting me, I just have no time for it.
 
Today in Glasgow immigration officer raided a flat to deport two suspected refugees.
The whole of the community came together and blocked the van in.
Around 200 people currently in a sit down protest surrounding the van.
No wonder the far right have no chance succeeding up here.
Nae luck Jayda ‘46 votes’ Franzen
 
I don't really get this 'Debt' business I'm afraid. Are we talking about money earned in the UK - maybe England - and spent on infrastructure of some kind in Scotland?

Didn't Scottish people pay income tax and NI contributions that went into a pool spent on all sorts of things across the Union too?

Has there ever been any official agreement over who could owe what based on what was spent where?

I'm not keen on Scotland leaving the Union but this seems an unpleasant form of extortion, a form of handcuffs placed around every man and woman living in Scotland upon their birth.
 
Glaswegian said:
Effin' quality!

Despite being full of subservient, cap doffing, forelock tugging weirdos, Scotland isnae bad, sometimes...
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It's just a shame we all hate each other up here for no real reason, isn't that right feckface?
 
Glaswegian said:
Effin' quality!

Despite being full of subservient, cap doffing, forelock tugging weirdos, Scotland isnae bad, sometimes...
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Best city in the world...if you take out all the stabby wee neds, the junkies, the racists...etc
 
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