Scottish Politics

Cheesy said:
The thing is that the SNP aren't even that left-wing. For the most part they're perceived as broadly centrist, but with a bit of a heart and a conscience...not quite seen in the sort of soulless vein New Labour often came to be perceived in.

I think it's often a lot more down to perception. The SNP have been putting across a consistent, understandable message for years, and it's managed to resonate. Labour haven't. The thing about their decline is that 2015 was sort of the final drop-off; they'd slowly been losing votes ever since their first election to the Scottish Parliament in 1999 (albeit very little at first), which eventually saw the SNP take power, saw Labour collapse in Holyrood in 2011, and then at UK level in 2015.
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I think it's the nationalist angle that's hard for anyone else to go up against, there's no doubting that Scotland is their number one priority, whereas Labour treated it like a seat bank and had their best Scots come down to focus on Westminster.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it would be fascinating to see how the party system would shake out once the SNP could no longer rely on that feeling in the event of independence, and the need to have a connection to parties south of the border ceased. Again, hopefully it won't come to that, but the political nerd in me is intrigued. Davidson would be FM before long, you'd think.
 
Cheesy said:
The thing is that the SNP aren't even that left-wing. For the most part they're perceived as broadly centrist, but with a bit of a heart and a conscience...not quite seen in the sort of soulless vein New Labour often came to be perceived in.

I think it's often a lot more down to perception. The SNP have been putting across a consistent, understandable message for years, and it's managed to resonate. Labour haven't. The thing about their decline is that 2015 was sort of the final drop-off; they'd slowly been losing votes ever since their first election to the Scottish Parliament in 1999 (albeit very little at first), which eventually saw the SNP take power, saw Labour collapse in Holyrood in 2011, and then at UK level in 2015.
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No, they're not left but they are relative to the other parties and they have adopted left social policies. They are not left in regard to business and have had some very dubious backers in the past.

I honestly don't think inconsistency of message is Labours issue. Simply, to win in England they had to be unelectable in Scotland. A lot of traditionally Labour supporting Scots, who would never have dreamed of voting for a nationalist party, felt betrayed by Labour (tuition fees, Iraq,etc).
 
Ubik said:
I think it's the nationalist angle that's hard for anyone else to go up against, there's no doubting that Scotland is their number one priority, whereas Labour treated it like a seat bank and had their best Scots come down to focus on Westminster.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it would be fascinating to see how the party system would shake out once the SNP could no longer rely on that feeling in the event of independence, and the need to have a connection to parties south of the border ceased. Again, hopefully it won't come to that, but the political nerd in me is intrigued. Davidson would be FM before long, you'd think.
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I would be deeply surprised if Scotland had a Tory FM in my lifetime.

I think you're right re: the nationalist angle. The SNP are not tied to a Westminster that is seen to be at complete divergence with Scottish public opinion.
 
hobbers said:
SNP are centrist nationalist one trick ponies. Another comical aspect of an independent Scotland will be watching Police Scotland, the NHS, education and social mobility fall further and further behind England under the SNP's watch.
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They're to the left of any UK wide party on most issues, except maybe the Greens.

I agree though, erosion of core pillars of society is comical. Nothing makes me chuckle like drops in educational standards.
 
Ubik said:
I think it's the nationalist angle that's hard for anyone else to go up against, there's no doubting that Scotland is their number one priority, whereas Labour treated it like a seat bank and had their best Scots come down to focus on Westminster.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it would be fascinating to see how the party system would shake out once the SNP could no longer rely on that feeling in the event of independence, and the need to have a connection to parties south of the border ceased. Again, hopefully it won't come to that, but the political nerd in me is intrigued. Davidson would be FM before long, you'd think.
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Yeah, I remember once hearing it termed as a sort of Premier League/Championship setup for Labour; top tier down south, and the remainder up north, with councillors etc being the tiers below that. They'd reserve the occasional decent name for Holyrood but it was pretty telling post-referendum when the crisis was emerging that they panicked and opted for Murphy right away.

Party system post-independence would be interesting. I think the SNP would continue to govern for a while but inevitably with one shared goal no longer there to unite them you'd see more left-wing types fall away and join the Greens, Socialist parties and form their own. There's already apparently been plenty of disagreements at local level, but they've managed to ride that out post-membership increase and remain stable enough. If the Greens stuck with Harvie I think he'd be a very big voice for them and would make them a sort of pre-2010 Lib Dem type third party, albeit more in the 10-15% range due to a multi-party system.

As for Davidson, I'm not too sure. A political talent no doubt, but in the aftermath of independence I'm not too sure many people would want someone who dedicated a considerable portion of their career to arguing against it. She's very talented, no doubt, but also tends to get the benefit of the doubt from the media, and often finds herself as the sole Scottish representative when she's on Question Time which allows her to exaggerate and sometimes say stuff that's just not correct at all with little questioning. Plus there'd be the Tory stigma which would still exist, although her sort of Scottish Tory party would be very different to down south, and much more pro-EU and liberal.

As you say though, would be very, very interesting. I imagine you'd get some small right-wing party looking to rejoin the union, one somewhere all over the place arguing against European integration etc.
 
This is the thing, I'd imagine the Tories would re-brand to something that doesn't have the toxicity. People will get sick of the SNP before long as with any party, with Labour (who I'd guess would stay as Labour due to Hardie) are unlikely to be back in any kind of ascendancy for a good while yet. Lib Dems might be a little pointless. Might see some politicians changing loyalties when freed from the bounds of the UK system as well. In the end there'd be an anti-SNP majority before long, and on the current trajectories you'd think Davidson would be in prime position to pick up the rewards. Incredibly possible that I'm very wrong, as per.

The "rejoin the UK" angle would be really interesting to follow in the wake of a close vote to leave!
 
Ubik said:
This is the thing, I'd imagine the Tories would re-brand to something that doesn't have the toxicity. People will get sick of the SNP before long as with any party, with Labour (who I'd guess would stay as Labour due to Hardie) are unlikely to be back in any kind of ascendancy for a good while yet. Lib Dems might be a little pointless. Might see some politicians changing loyalties when freed from the bounds of the UK system as well. In the end there'd be an anti-SNP majority before long, and on the current trajectories you'd think Davidson would be in prime position to pick up the rewards. Incredibly possible that I'm very wrong, as per.

The "rejoin the UK" angle would be really interesting to follow in the wake of a close vote to leave!
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Possibly, but I feel like the current trajectory would be altered completely in the wake of Scottish independence. For all Davidson's talent her voice would potentially seem a bit contradictory in the type of Scottish state she's been opposing with vigour; any strong FM campaign would be countered with constant reminders as to how she was firmly against Scottish independence, incredibly negative etc. I could see her ending up in the same way as a number of the old Labour MP's - probably quite politically talented and capable to an extent, but also damaged by the general political trend.

Any Tory party will re-brand but will initially have a hard time winning people over due to association. There's also the fact we're a very, very urban country, and for as long as their performances in major cities like Glasgow and Edinburgh are poor (which they're bound to be for any conservative leaning party) they're going to struggle to get into power. It's worth noting that their poor performances in Scotland, while obviously worsened after the Thatcher years, were regularly worse than the national average since around the late 1950s. Again, an indy Scotland Tory party would be completely new and almost unrecognisable, but I think a conservative party in Scotland would struggle to obtain power outside a coalition in general for a lot of these reasons.

Still, though...agree it'd be fascinating to watch. I suspect Sturgeon would govern for a term or two presuming she's still around and it's quite soon, but after she's gone and there's perhaps no longer a central figure to unite around and you maybe get some doubts creeping in as to how successful/worth it the whole things been (which is always gonna be inevitable) you'd see a gradual fracturing of the SNP and with everything to play for.
 
Angry doctors and nurses attack Scottish Government pay cap of one per cent

The pay cap was announced as it emerged that one GP surgery is closing every month due to staff shortages, and amid warnings from whistle blowers that it is only a matter of time before staff shortages at one busy infirmary result in a death.
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Full article :: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...urses-attack-scottish-government-pay-cap-one/


One wonders if Scotland's policy of free tuition could come under pressure as the broader budget is strained. Those millions might help GP surgeries for instance.

Of course this doesn't apply to the English, Welsh and Northern Irish, whose students already have to pay when attending uni north of the border.
 
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Council elections here on Thursday which should be interesting. The extent of the continued Labour collapse will probably be the big talking point.
 
altodevil86 said:
As she should, putting unionism before common ground defeats the purpose of politics.
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Aye, and since the SNP have 19 seats to the Tories 11 it's not as if Labour can argue the Tories are the only option for coalition. Embarrassing stuff from them really.
 
Cheesy said:
Aye, and since the SNP have 19 seats to the Tories 11 it's not as if Labour can argue the Tories are the only option for coalition. Embarrassing stuff from them really.
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Didn't even realise that, makes it even more of a sham.

The thing is, if it wasn't for Kez ordering the other way, a lot of people wouldn't realise this was happening. Streisand effect.
 
Been a bit of controversy surrounding Salmond's decision to do a talkshow on Russia Today. I like him but don't particularly approve of his choice; the controversy will help get him views, no doubt, but considering some of the uglier aspects of RT I'm surprised.
 
Is it possible to spend your career decrying the Murdoch press and then go and work for Putin's RT without looking like a giant hypocrite and sell out?

I think not really, even for the incredible inflating man.
 
Scottish Labour's Alex Rowley has stepped aside as deputy leader after allegations he made an ex-partner's life a living hell. Second to be caught up in this in Holyrood after an SNP minister resigned for inappropriate behaviour.
 
Richard Leonard elected as new Scottish Labour leader with 56% of the vote. SLab going down the Corbyn route as well now.
 
Sweet Square said:
The Guardian hits the nail on the head again

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For what it's worth I did think myself that Sarwar would win. Although Leonard was probably the right choice irrespective of whether you're left-leaning or a centrist: Sarwar came with a lot of baggage and the revelations about his financial ties and profit-making from a firm that doesn't pay minimum wage would've made him a ridiculously easy target for Sturgeon. Discounting the fact that he's a bit of a rubbish politician anyway.

Rumours are Leonard will suspend Dugdale from the party, which would be a pretty massive - albeit understandable - opening move from him. Even Blair McDougall wasn't too keen on her jetting off to Australia...

 
Cheesy said:
For what it's worth I did think myself that Sarwar would win. Although Leonard was probably the right choice irrespective of whether you're left-leaning or a centrist: Sarwar came with a lot of baggage and the revelations about his financial ties and profit-making from a firm that doesn't pay minimum wage would've made him a ridiculously easy target for Sturgeon. Discounting the fact that he's a bit of a rubbish politician anyway.

Rumours are Leonard will suspend Dugdale from the party, which would be a pretty massive - albeit understandable - opening move from him. Even Blair McDougall wasn't too keen on her jetting off to Australia...

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I'm completely out of the loop with Scottish Politics but just going off from the last election, the fact Leanoard was pitching himself as the openly Left Wing candidate and importably the backing from the Unions, I thought he had it in the bag.

Whats the whole scandal with Dugdale about ? It can't really be because she's going on a reality tv show ?
 
Sweet Square said:
I'm completely out of the loop with Scottish Politics but just going off from the last election, the fact Leanoard was pitching himself as the openly Left Wing candidate and importably the backing from the Unions, I thought he had it in the bag.

Whats the whole scandal with Dugdale about ? It can't really be because she's going on a reality tv show ?
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The thing about Scottish Labour is that due to the SNP's presence hoovering up a lot of left-wing voters who support independence, often a lot of left-wingers who'd automatically fluctuate towards Corbyn would be more unwilling to support Scottish Labour because of their unionist stance. Back in 2016 during the second leadership election Scotland backed Smith. But Corbyn's success in the election earlier this year reversed that a little and helped win back some support for Labour up here. They've still got a long way to go and didn't really improve that much on their 2015 vote, but there was definitely a greater sense of purpose. A lot of people I knew who wouldn't have considered voting Scottish Labour in 2015 did so up here, or at least strongly contemplated doing so. I wasn't sure how that'd translate to this vote, but obviously the left-wing sentiment within Labour's now enough...plus Sarwar would've been an awful choice had they gone for him.

It's actually a very interesting debate when you get to the indy movement because there's a bit of a divide between people who see themselves as socialists over nationalists and who'll vote for a unionist, left-wing Labour party, and people who'd see themselves as nationalists over socialists and won't vote Labour on principle because of their unionist stance.

Quite how Leonard will fare I'm unsure - he's not exactly come across as particularly inspiring whenever I've listened to him and he's probably won by default in the end, more due to what he represents rather than anything else. But he's still a candidate who's advocated genuine change within Scottish Labour, which is something.

As for Dugdale, it's less because she's going on a reality TV show and more because she's doing so while she's still an active MSP in Holyrood while parliament's in session. She's taking a massive shite over those she's elected to represent by essentially fecking off for a couple of weeks for some B-list fame and a moderate payday. And I say that as someone who partly warmed to her during her tenure as Scottish Labour leader, even if I'd have never voted for her, and as someone who thought she came across as an alright person even if she was a bit of a shite politician.
 
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...ow_to_donate_all_outside_earnings_to_charity/

More controversy on Dugdale. This quote in particular...

Anas Sarwar, who was defeated yesterday in the race to become leader of Scottish Labour, added: “Now she has made that decision I want us to have that phone bank running to make sure that she eats every bug possible, is in the pit with the rats as much as possible, so she fully enjoys that experience and is raring to go when she comes back.
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Christ.:lol:
 
Ubik said:
So much for my old idea that going left was the only way to save Scottish Labour :lol:
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I think the idea is sort of somewhat true in that I can't really see the centrist wing of the party regaining ground in Scotland, and it was largely said centrist wing who were responsible for the parties downfall in 2015. There was definitely a surge in young people voting Labour in 2017 - knew plenty of independence supporters who opted for Labour because they liked Corbyn's credentials.

But one of the problems the left face up here is that they're trying to win over voters who do primarily support independence, and for as long as they remain an anti-independence party that's always going to be a huge hurdle. But the deeper problems are evident insofar as Leonard's a deeply uninspiring leader who appears to literally just be a branch office manager. The New Statesman article highlight things Scottish Labour have the power to deal with which are getting deferred to London for some reason. The branch office jibes were going around in the Lamont/Murphy era, to be fair, and only really went away when Dugdale was leading up here while Corbyn was in charge down south, but they seem to be truer than ever. It doesn't help that Corbyn is, however, deeply uninterested in Scotland. It's sort of natural insofar as he's spent most of his career as a London backbencher, but it doesn't help when he'll call for, say, Scottish Water to be nationalised...when it already is!

I think the party's issues up here are quite systemic though and will be hard to ever fully recover from. Treating Holyrood like a platform for their B team was always going to backfire when things went south at Westminster.
 
Boris Johnson has insisted he does not oppose devolution, after reportedly saying it had been a "disaster" in Scotland.

Addressing Scottish Conservatives, the prime minister said he only "criticised the performance of devolution" under the Scottish National Party.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55028649
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He's a weasel wee bastard of a man but is their truth to his words? I can't be arsed looking for official statistics so I'm going to treat my anecdotal evidence as fact.

NHS under the SNP - great. Never had a problem getting an urgent appointment. When I buggered my knee I spent an hour waiting in A&E on a comfy chair before being wheeled through and checked out, which isn't bad. Only paid a few quid for antiinflammatories. My kids get same day appointments if they need them and free prescriptions.

Education under the SNP - fecking horrendous. If you're a university you get all the dosh in the world thrown at you otherwise you can pretty much feck off and die. The last two Education Ministers have pretty much said the college sector is a waste of time.

Nationalism under the SNP - It doesn't matter if you support independence and vote SNP - if you don't pray to Nicola Sturgeon every morning, or if you dare say something like "maybe the SNP could do better with..." you're a Tory loving English cnut.

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Overall the SNP could do better. BUT I'm not going to start listening to someone with Boris's record on the subject. Tory loving English cnut.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
He's a weasel wee bastard of a man but is their truth to his words? I can't be arsed looking for official statistics so I'm going to treat my anecdotal evidence as fact.

NHS under the SNP - great. Never had a problem getting an urgent appointment. When I buggered my knee I spent an hour waiting in A&E on a comfy chair before being wheeled through and checked out, which isn't bad. Only paid a few quid for antiinflammatories. My kids get same day appointments if they need them and free prescriptions.

Education under the SNP - fecking horrendous. If you're a university you get all the dosh in the world thrown at you otherwise you can pretty much feck off and die.

Nationalism under the SNP - It doesn't matter if you support independence and vote SNP - if you don't pray to Nicola Sturgeon every morning, or if you dare say something like "maybe the SNP could do better with..." you're a Tory loving English cnut.

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Overall the SNP could do better. BUT I'm not going to start listening to someone with Boris's record on the subject. Tory loving English cnut.
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Doctor Jekyll and Mr Pigeon.
 
nimic said:
Doctor Jekyll and Mr Pigeon.
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My mother in law loves to tell me how much she hates English people. She'll go on a massive rant about how they're all Tory voting cnuts, and then she'll realise what's she's saying and go "but your family's alright, son". Aye, cheers :lol:
 
Mr Pigeon said:
My mother in law loves to tell me how much she hates English people. She'll go on a massive rant about how they're all Tory voting cnuts, and then she'll realise what's she's saying and go "but your family's alright, son". Aye, cheers :lol:
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I thought you were Scottish? I'm not sure we can be friends any more.
 
nimic said:
I thought you were Scottish? I'm not sure we can be friends any more.
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Oh, I'm a dirty Scot but my family are predominantly scattered about the North of England like the vermin they are.
 
nimic said:
Oh that's a relief. The North of England is practically Scotland anyway. And the north of Scotland is practically Norway.
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Careful now. Don't give the Shetlands any ideas.
 
The reality is the SNP is being held up as a decent government solely because Nicola is brilliant. A lot of their ministers and backbone of the party itself is shite and full of dross. The new economy minister a rare bright spot.
 
altodevil said:
The reality is the SNP is being held up as a decent government solely because Nicola is brilliant. A lot of their ministers and backbone of the party itself is shite and full of dross. The new economy minister a rare bright spot.
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True. Their last two Education Ministers were probably found in the same bin, under sacks of shit.
 
Looks like Scotland is sticking with the SNP again. Love them or loathe them it's pretty clear that, for the majority, Scotland is moving further away from the political identify of the rest of the UK.

If some cnut could fix the roads and empty our bins more often that would be great, though.
 
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