The moment Mainoo cleared off the line demonstrates McTominays limits. Gueye was McTominays man - if you watch the replay from behind the goal you can see just how easily he runs by McTominay who seemingly has no idea he's there and also doesnt react in the slightest. These little details are the difference at the top level. I like McTominay, a useful squad player, but without being bailed out by a teammate his lack of awareness has cost us a goal and possible points
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I disagree. Fletcher was a decent player, but with a Scholes, Hargreaves, Carrick midfielder, Fletcher was a significant drop in quality. All about opinions, but you pick three from that four and I can guess who is left out.
Too much sentiment for some of our players, which is funny to observe as our greatest manager didn't have any sentiment for any of his players.
Fletcher over Hargreaves for me.
The definition of a player that potters. He's always about 5 yards off the action and often let's his man stroll by. He had less touches than most if not all of our starters.
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Fletcher was growing exponentially before his chronic bowel disease ulcerative colitis ruined that trajectory. He had a number of games in that season before he was out that were absolutely top class. Hargreaves did not have those kind of performances in midfield for United.
It's not sentiment; Fletcher was harshly disparaged when he was coming through for not being Keane or Scholes or looking anything like their level, but as he matured he was very clearly coming into his own as a player in his own right and was rightly praised and acknowledged for it.
The point as you raise is that we are short in midfield, if Casemiro or Eriksen are fit he doesn't start now, either will be with Mainoo in pivot with Fernandes in front.
That said everyone knows his limitations so I'm not sure why we have to keep criticizing hes a squad player who at least provides effort and a goal threat more than can be said for Mount.
When Martial plays, he's essentially a false 9 who is never in the box for crosses. In those scenarios, McTominay's surges into the box make sense. However, for the rest of the game, he's always too far forward hiding from the ball .
Him playing as he plays, and Fernandes essentially free-roaming around the field to find spots of influence as a no.10 typically meant Mainoo/Amrabat are a 1 man island in there.
Our "4141" doesn't work down to personnel. Your no.8s in front of the "1" need to be better at receiving and showing for the ball. Despite winning 3-0, we had less possession of the ball than Everton. Big part of that is the inadequacies of the midfield structure.
Him playing as he plays, and Fernandes essentially free-roaming around the field to find spots of influence as a no.10 typically meant Mainoo/Amrabat are a 1 man island in there.
Our "4141" doesn't work down to personnel. Your no.8s in front of the "1" need to be better at receiving and showing for the ball. Despite winning 3-0, we had less possession of the ball than Everton. Big part of that is the inadequacies of the midfield structure.
I’ve never liked McT (the footballer)
I do appreciate his attitude and determination….and lately his goals. I will support him whilst he plays in red.
but I know what a cm should bring to the team and I’m afraid he just doesn’t have it for a club with elite aspirations.
and when an 18yr old comes in to make his debut and puts in a performance that McT has neither ever put in…or will likely ever be capable of…it’s a damning assessment that he really just shouldn’t be at the club.
To be clear. I’ll finish where I started. I’ve never liked McT (the footballer)
I do appreciate his attitude and determination….and lately his goals. I will support him whilst he plays in red.
but I know what a cm should bring to the team and I’m afraid he just doesn’t have it for a club with elite aspirations.
and when an 18yr old comes in to make his debut and puts in a performance that McT has neither ever put in…or will likely ever be capable of…it’s a damning assessment that he really just shouldn’t be at the club.
To be clear. I’ll finish where I started. I’ve never liked McT (the footballer)
He's a fouling machine.
He was atrocious yesterday.
Can be very good in the right game with the right setup. He just can't be relied on consistently. He's going to be 27 in a couple of weeks, so this is pretty much the player he is going to be.
In terms of whether he has a place in the squad as a back-up, I think you could argue both ways. I wouldn't mind keeping him around to be used at the right times.
In terms of whether he has a place in the squad as a back-up, I think you could argue both ways. I wouldn't mind keeping him around to be used at the right times.
His limitations will be criticised whenever he displays them. That's the nature of performance critiquing. I am unsure why you expect people to have said, 5 years ago, that he can't pass and then decide not to mention this subsequently when he exhibits this. He's not a 'squad player', he's a United player. He's here as a part of our group of midfielders, of which either the best three or the fittest three will play at any given time. There is no reason at all for anyone to just accept him not being up to standard. He has, and continues to be, a very useable option for us. I wouldn't talk about his deficiencies if he never actually got on the pitch for us. But squad player or not, he seems to line up regularly enough for Manchester United, so I/we will continue to talk about his performances.
And nobody actually IS saying more for Mount. What does that have to do with anything?
What sort of set up would be the right scenario for United to be playing McTominay?
Saw a thread yesterday about the new tactical approach of Ten Hag and how it doesn't work.
He used to have his double 10 at Ajax too, but it was mainly to overload the opponent when we are in possession.
Basically, having a line of 5 players plus 3 at the back (and one alone in midfield), should be an advantage when you play from the back with a quick pass from the full back to a winger, then to a number 10.
But since we can't play from the back, there are no more purpose having this double 10.
Think Arsenal does it really well to touch quickly their wingers and 10s (Odegaard and Havertz) with the way they play from the back, and we not.
So basically, Mc Tominay is Mc Tominay and is not used properly in a very difficult formation.
I'd envisage "right set-up" for McTominay being him playing as a second striker behind a no.9 who wants to come deep and vacate spaces for McTominay to box crash. Two central midfielders behind him who can defend and pass the football... Something we should not play because we have better players who occupy his best position.
Agreed. In 2009-10 Fletcher, Evra, Rooney and Nani were easily our best players.
Just think of that game where Fletch bullied Arsenal and had Wenger standing on the top of the dugout.
Fletcher was a much better midfielder than McTominay will ever be, sadly. If we had someone comparable to pre illness Fletcher, to play with Mainoo, we'd be contenders.
Unlike Fletch, McTominay simply does not use the ball well enough.
MCT in most games:
Exactly how it was. Some people seem to have forgotten this. He was becoming a huge presence in the side and I rued his loss whenever he was unavailable. Especially so after the red card against Arsenal in the Semi Final of the Champions League.
Thankfully, his son Jack looks a promising player coming through
That's essentially it; he's an attacking midfielder for a smaller club and he'll tally well enough for them in that role, but here, he shouldn't get that gig.
It's on the managers who put him in CM as by now, it's abundantly clear what he does or does not offer. I keep reading that he hides, but I always think if you don't actually know what you're doing or intrinsically have it about you, you'll always lag behind the play and look like an imposter/fraud or what have you. McTominay mostly looks like someone who is playing a reactive game in the most proactive area of the pitch, hence the delay on his actions and all the things that make a midfielder stand out to the positive or negative. If we then throw him into that same area of the pitch again and again and again, is he to blame or the managers doing it?
Mainoo is going to 'expose' him even further and that's not really McTominay's fault. Ones a natural, prodigious midfielder, the other has been plonked there and is winging it to no avail; we can't possibly pull the data from McTominay's games, particularly the amount of passes, touches and involvements he has in a typical game and then think, yep, roll him out to do that again, please.
The revisionism when it comes to Fletcher is quite sad because a lot of the good work and solid performances he was doling out are pushed to the wayside like they didn't happen.
Because of the treatment he got coming up, Fletcher also had a cast iron resilience to his game and a total defiance in terms of letting thing affect him, which meant he was always tenacious, and as the player he was becoming, he really brought the game to the opposition and harassed and cajoled them with a level of intensity I don't think anyone else has matched since. Put him in our current midfield as he was just before he had his game robbed from him via illness, and we'd be a totally different proposition through midfield in every game.
Just because he wasn't Keane, Scholes or Carrick, it doesn't mean he was a poor player. Actually far from it, just that his real time to shine and get the plaudits was taken from him, which really is a shame.
I think McTominay is doing exactly what he's been told by the coaching staff, his main attribute is he seems to appear in the right place right time that will occasionally get him a goal (as he's a good shout for our best goalscorer atm).
He is not being told to play midfielder role, just as Mount wasn't playing midfielder role by design.
I still think our problems start with midfield being too open and also not set up in a way that helps to progress the ball. A lot of other issues are spin offs from this particular one.
Yeah exactly. IMO Ten Hag has a good idea how McTominay should be used/what he's good at. The problem is this should never be something that we do at this club for the reason you mentioned in the bolded part. Obviously we have a lot of injuries now, but McTominay has been core of this team in many weeks now.
Jokes aside I think it's a bit unfair. Again, see Mason Mount example - he also doesn't get involved in the build up anywhere near often enough. They are both following instructions to keep high position what effectively takes them out of the game. ETH is clearly pushing for this setup. It's not like McTominay is doing his own thing there.MCT in most games:
I find it very irritating. I can't believe how often he is dismissed, almost as if it is common consensus. He is regularly chucked into the category of 'plucky little trier, but not much cop' alongside players who he was on a completely different level to. In this instance - McTominay.
He was unbeleiveable in that run to the champions league final when we scored that wonder goal on the break at Arsenal (he got harshly sent off).
Was world class that season, very good otherwise.
I don't think there is a setup he could consistently work in for us. What I mean is that sometimes the stars align, and due to the nature of the game and McTominay hitting a good day, he can look great. Best example I can think of is when he had that great performance vs. Leeds a few years ago, but I'm sure there are others. But his lacking fundamentals as a midfielder means that it will happen all too rarely.
Agreed. He was really coming into his own and the illness robbed him of his best years as a player. If it wasn't for the illness, I think he would be pretty unanimously remembered as a very good player and we wouldn't be seeing these uninformed posts viewing him as some sort of clogger.
Agreed, its always hard to know if it was a purple patch like Butt had at one point but he was developing into a really effective player before the illness.
Hope our incoming DoF is looking at Scott and using his recent form/hype to sell him while there is some perceived value. It's a great opportunity for us to get 30-40 million for him.
I think we need another thread for this, but as I said this is all about opinions. I never stated that darren Fletcher was a clogger, or a poor player. He was decent, v good in some games, but he was never going to drive us forward as a team, and he was a drop in standards from the previous teams. That's just a fact. Compared to SMT, of course he's far better, no doubt about that, he's on another level. But Fletcher wasn't at the level of midfield players that powered and defined our success. I don't see that as a controversial statement. It's quite obvious. Sorry if some may find that offensive, it isn't supposed to be.
If we’re planning to play in the championship.
He’s just not good enough to play in midfield and he’s not good enough to warrant playing further upfront because he contributes little to nothing in the build up.
If you’re desperate for a goal in the final 10 mins, playing Scott makes sense otherwise he’s honestly very far off the standards for a premier league midfielder.
What kind of midfielder is afraid of getting the ball and can have lesser touches than some subs while playing the full 90 mins.
He's actually pretty mediocre in duels, and honestly sort of terrible for how big he is. This is one of my biggest issues with him
He is better at them than our other options for deep areas though. And combined with his physical strengths and height... I just don't see what alternative we actually have. It's Casemiro or McTominay partnering Mainoo, Amrabat or Eriksen for me. I don't think we show any sort of decent balance if we put other guys to go in the deeper 2. It's not a question about is McTominay good enough, obviously not for that position, but does he do the job better and give us better balance than the alternatives? For me it's an easy yes. I think our balance is horrendous whenever we don't have 2 of Amrabat/Casemiro/Mainoo/Eriksen/McTominay in the midfield and we don't do a 4-2-3-1 type system. And of those... Casemiro & eriksen are injured. And Amrabat has easily been far worse than McTominay has. So McTominay turns into an easy start until we get players, specifically casemiro back.
Usual flaws on display yesterday.
In 90 minutes he touched the ball 37 times and completed 22 passes (79%)
In 71 minutes Mainoo touched the ball 57 times and completed 38 passes (83%) If we extrapolate Mainoo's stats to a 90 minute performance that would be 72 and 48. Which means he basically got on the ball twice as much as his midfield partner.
Which is fecking madness, a recurring theme with McT and kryptonite for a functional midfield.
And before anyone says "that's because he played higher up the pitch than Mainoo", the equivalent stats for Bruno were 66 touches and 41 passes.
In 90 minutes he touched the ball 37 times and completed 22 passes (79%)
In 71 minutes Mainoo touched the ball 57 times and completed 38 passes (83%) If we extrapolate Mainoo's stats to a 90 minute performance that would be 72 and 48. Which means he basically got on the ball twice as much as his midfield partner.
Which is fecking madness, a recurring theme with McT and kryptonite for a functional midfield.
And before anyone says "that's because he played higher up the pitch than Mainoo", the equivalent stats for Bruno were 66 touches and 41 passes.
I don't think he's good enough there - I'd probably just consider him a squad CB/utility player if we can't sell him. At CB he's played there before, and it mitigates his biggest weakness which is being terrible at making himself available for passes. Assuming Varane is off, Maguire/Martinez is an ok pairing to see out the season. Lindelof 3rd choice and McT 4th. Hannibal should get minutes ahead of him as a CM sub.
Once again good game and shows why he plays. There to give team balance at the same time as power, strenght and little bit of dirtyness.
Does enormous amount of work without people noticing it. That is ok with me. People will understand and watch him without prejudgemental eyes one day.
Does enormous amount of work without people noticing it. That is ok with me. People will understand and watch him without prejudgemental eyes one day.
Strange thing to say when he is no worse than this years £100+ Premier League midfielder signings.
I’ll have what you’re drinking…
I think Bruno role in this team is pretty clear, he operates as a 10 that gets involved on the ball around midfield and around the box. He does not attack the box anymore. Whether that suits him is a different discussion. The problem is what exactly is McTominay supposed to be doing? He isn't getting involved in the buildup, the most often I see him doing something is he arrives late in the box like a second striker. He's doing pretty much what Mount used to do for us, what effectively means we're man down in midfield but generates numerical advantage in the box = he will get some shots and goals.
I don't rate McTominay at all as a midfielder, but I honestly think we would be better off if he played traditional CM role, at least we would not be so easy to run through in the center. ETH is trying to be too smart here IMO.
I've seen enough of McT at this stage to be absolutely certain that his lack of involvement in the game is a lack of ability on his part, rather than a flaw in our tactics or how he is used. Specifically his terrible off the ball movement. He just doesn't know where to position himself on the pitch. Which fecks us up both in and out of possession. No amount of tactical/positional tweaks will fix that problem.
Water, just water.
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