Mine won't close anyway as it's producing food, but they're saying "don't socialise because it's dangerous" but "goto work surrounded by people you don't trust to be sensible at the best of times"
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss three 1-1 draws.
The first got us knocked out of the FA Cup, the next puts us in a good position in our Round of 16 Europa League game, and the latest was an actual decent performance against Arsenal at Old Trafford.
All hopes for the season now rest on the Europa League - does Amorim have the squad to win it?
Mine won't close anyway as it's producing food, but they're saying "don't socialise because it's dangerous" but "goto work surrounded by people you don't trust to be sensible at the best of times"
It's been requested by the local councils there, not driven from central government.
Yeah, I saw that. But given that some areas the NW are in a worse state, it seems odd not to apply the same changes whilst they are at it. Maybe NE councils are shouting more loudly.
Government haven't always been receptive to the views of the councils in Greater Manchester, so it marks a shift in approach if they're finally listening.
Stricter rules in NL tonight. Dont go to the office, dont go to amsterdam unless necessary( undefined ), certain hours for the vulnerable to shop, masks in shops but policed by the shop, pubs & cafs closed at 10, 3 extra people in your house inc kids, companies to be shut down if there is a cluster outbreak, 30 people allowed in pub and 40 outside. No one allowed in pub after 9.
Very interesting point.
An "enemy"? What's going on over there?
Says enough, people dont care.
That seems ridiculous. It might be a bit dramatic on the part of the students- I don't know - but surely they have the right to display their thoughts about lockdown - whatever they are - from their window?
Under what law would the Police demand their removal?
Once these kids load up on booze and drugs, I fear some will lose self control and serious crimes like molestation and worse will take place.
Seems like some are obviously seeing this as a big excuse to get pissed up. Others are genuinely fearful of the situation. At the end of the day, they are still kids all but in name.
Seeing this prick squirm brings me immense joy.
We have passed 1 million deaths 
Of course it is likely much higher than this as the excess deaths will higher than that even with fewer flu deaths.
Of course it is likely much higher than this as the excess deaths will higher than that even with fewer flu deaths.
I agree, they're young people, many of them are away from home for the first time and everything's strange. Putting up a sign that says "send beer" or "this cost me over £9K" is quite understandable. Unless they're putting up anything offensive, they absolutely have the right to make their feelings clear.
The UK is not the only country with a 10pm curfew but it is the only country with idiots doing that. You can't blame the government for everything.
I swing between thinking they’re young, this has been harder on them than anyone, they need to blow off steam, I was also reckless at their age and WHAT THE FECK ARE YOU DOING YOU BLITHERING IDIOTS, YOU ARE LITERALLY KILLING PEOPLE SO YOU CAN GET OFF YOUR FACE ON WKD, GROW UP YOU SELFISH TWATS!!!
I agree but I get annoyed when the Government think it's OK to trust the public with common sense. This is UK for feck-sake, it has a huge slice of dimwits capable of carnage.
What's the explanation for it? I can't imagine you'd find much evidence that there are more "idiots" in the UK in a general sense than most comparable nations, so what's leading to such different behaviour?
I don't blame the government necessarily, but it doesn't seem a big leap to think it's directly related to the confused messaging from the government. How many other countries have an incident like Boris Johnson and his "I shake everyone's hands" at any point in the pandemic, never mind right at the beginning? I imagine every country has had some public official skipping out on lockdown measures briefly, but that brazen attitude combined with his comments at the time seemed pretty unique. That was quickly followed by the UK government explicitly following a different approach to its neighbours in the early stages, only to flip flop and demonstrably pay for it.
Maybe every country has an equal number of people that look for an excuse to exploit those inconsistencies, "misunderstandings" and whatnot, and the UK just happened to hand it to them? As time goes on, adherence is going to slip for everyone, decades of research on all kinds of adherence to personal and public health measures show that, and all you need is those two things combined to get these examples.
Edit: I'd add that I've got friends in Spain and Germany who suggest big parties are much more common there than in the UK at the moment, it just isn't getting the same intention because there's not the same kind of generational in-fighting and blame games, and the climate and areas make it easier to do this further out of cities. And there's been reports from locals in here of music festivals and the rest going ahead as relatively normal in their countries. Very few examples of young people across the globe managing to reject that need for large social group connection. It is socially programmed into them in a way it isn't for older generations, given education structures and the culture that built around them.
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Honestly, I reckon it's years of austerity and other bad policy coming to roost. People aren't happy about the few elements of life they enjoy being taken away from them and weren't ever going to give up what they enjoy doing without a strong narrative to back it (like Save the NHS).
I'm not going to agree going out and getting shitfaced should be a civil liberty but it makes sense people have exceeded their patience and are acting like they no longer care or have anything to lose. Others are simply trying to work between the cracks to make the best of things.
Our country has dissolved sense of community by displacing people to cities; created a dog-eat-dog jobs market; driven up the cost of house prices; confused people with rampant marketing about living life to the fullest; demoralised public sector staff like junior doctors; decreased funding for libraries and other public venues. It's no wonder that people have turned into selfish twats when they live in a society run by uncaring arseholes*
I usually eschew politics (don't think I've ever spoken about it on this forum) but I believe it's all linked.
*I will caveat this by saying the job retention scheme was a step in the right direction. I think most were surprised by it.
Edit - Add university fees to the mix too. A big problem given that students are now forced to treat education like a consumable product.
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Not sure that can explain the country differences though. They sufferered a lot from austerity in Spain too, they were in a more precarious economic position pre pandemic, and they have more people in the more at risk jobs (e.g. Tourism) who already over-index on economic insecurity at the best of times.
I think it's both.
I've lived overseas long enough to realise us British are far more similar to the average American than we'd like to think, and certainly far more similar to them than any of our European neighbours. The entitlement and envy stands out. We believe we are better than others and we know better than those in authority.
But yes, our government has not helped. Here in Italy, where rules are never simple, the rules were simple. 1. Don't go out anywhere, then it became 2. Go out but always wear a mask, and then 3. Go out but wear a mask indoors. You wouldn't have a hope at summarising the UK rules in 3 bullet points.
On a very basic level, I don’t think young people in other countries have the same culture of going to pubs and getting absolutely wrecked then spilling out into the streets at closing time to eat kebabs, flirt and fight. Partly down to differences in licensing laws and partly down to the fact that drinking 10 pints every Friday night just isn’t something that happens in many other countries.
I actually do kind of agree with the Sun headline here (shock, horror) Forcing everyone out of pubs/bars at the same time was alway going to create crowd scenes on the streets. I also think it will increase the number of post-pub house-parties.
Yeah, I'd agree with that.
What's the view from the other side of the ideological spectrum, @finneh? Why are we seeing more examples of this from folks in the UK? Is it because they value their freedom more, reject autocracy, and are more able to make informed risk decisions on a person-by-person basis? Drinking in excess just to cope with the fears?
You hear this a lot from people in the UK and Ireland, and on holidays abroad the evidence seems plain to see, but over the last few years I've found quite a few countries in Central and Eastern Europe where locals drink a lot more than I'd thought, and not much differently to UK and Ireland. I've not looked into it much but as an example
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...more-often-than-35-other-nations-survey-finds
The headline is dramatic but drinking 1.1 times a year more often than the average Canadian or American sounds a lot less dramatic. I don't know where, say, Belgium, Czech Republic or Russia fit into that spectrum, but I'd be surprised if its world's apart.
Maybe excessive binge drinking is where the UK really stand out, but I'd be interested to see the evidence for it. I've been in villages in countries where alcohol is prohibited but it's widely known by locals that the one semi pub they have there, all the men go there most nights of the week, get on the lash, get aggressive, rinse and repeat. So I'm a bit more sceptical of the reputation now as things look a bit different under the surface. It's something that Brits and Irish folks have embraced as part of their culture, while others don't acknowledge it, but the differences seem relatively small.
In any case I agree this was a predictable outcome. I'm pretty sure I'd have followed suit as I was firmly following in the footsteps of my peers at that age, with missing eyebrows at 18 in Sunny Beach to show for it! Wonder what the original decision makers expected.
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There's a big freshers-week effect at the moment. Just look at the areas with very high numbers of cases, and they tend to be the University areas. Freshers week has a long history of being a massive piss-up - potentially the first time living alone for most of these kids - and most of them feel like they're invincible anyway. I'd be hopeful that the surge in Universities will burn out in a few weeks, in the same way freshers flu tends to be generally cleared up by the end of October. Just have to hope it doesn't spread too far into the rest of the local population.
My only frame of reference is with central/western European countries. So it’s definitely possible the streets of, say, Warsaw are exactly the same as Uk city streets every Friday/Saturday night. My own experience is also biased by mainly visiting capital cities. It’s the smaller towns/cities in the UK that you’re most likely to find gangs of absolutely plastered young men/women. London, not so much. So maybe the night life in Paris, Madrid, Rome, Berlin, Amsterdam, Brussels etc doesn’t accurately reflect what’s going on in smaller towns? Because in those big cities when you do see an extremely pissed up crowd of young people wandering around late at night they’re more likely to be British (or Irish) than local!
Tourism might be a big difference. We don't have this implied feeling that different regions in the UK add to the collective economy, which I assume is probably more pronounced in Spain. I don't feel qualified to pass judgement beyond this though as I've no experience living there.
In any case with the drinking culture, perhaps it's worth looking at what fuels it? Obviously Britain is known for being quite repressed and generally having a culture that revolves around drinking for people to open up and feel comfortable (quite a basic human need when you think about it).
There's a lot to say about its removal being more problematic than we might think. Yes other countries drink (perhaps more) but maybe the basic reasons for why Brits drink (both socially and to excess) differs a lot from other countries, except perhaps Eastern Europe.
Basically, given how ingrained habits are, it seems politicians were really naïve believing people would change over night. You can't strip the wall and be happy with the results without replacing it with a fresh colour of paint. As of yet, we haven't actually replaced what we do with anything positive.
This also seems to be a factor with students. Take away the fun part of being a student and you realise that the lifestyle is actually fairly depressing. Living in small cramped dorms miles away from family paying £9k a year isn't much fun at all without the usual benefits. Cue their angst (I don't blame them).
P.s. I'm thinking aloud here. Sorry if any of this seems irrelevant.
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Probably true on both counts! I'd imagine part of the reason you don't see so many locals partying in their country's tourists hubs is precisely because there's so many British and Irish folks crammed into there already - if they're in the city, they're surely not in the tourist hotspots! In Europe I'm thinking of places like Hamburg where you'd have a load of locals drinking and smoking indoors into the wee hours of the morning, in pubs that look a bit like your mate's living room. But you'd easily miss them if you didn't have a local or someone who spoke the language because while they're on main streets, they're below ground level and don't remotely advertise that they're even open to the public.
Makes sense to me! Honestly I can't imagine university without a social life. And while I didn't think much about the fees then, my wee bro is very conscious of the £9k, and I reckon it would build a lot of resentment too.
I'd agree with @F-Red (I think) in that if I was in their situation, I'd probably have taken the year off. Educationally I don't think it would make a huge difference, there'd be some teething pains but it's do-able. But my uni experience was almost entirely defined by figuring out what independence was and meeting new people all the time, in spontaneous events often with a complete disregard for my own personal safety and a sole focus on having a bit of craic. I'd like to think I'd consider the risks of spreading covid to be a bit different to the risks of yet another night of alcohol poisoning, but I can't think of many moments when I considered the bigger picture at that age. Otherwise I'd probably have realised drinking a pint of jaegermeister mixed with vodka in about a minute might lead me into some dangerous situations!
That's not blaming the students, but I do think the situation they've found themselves in wasn't entirely unpredictable, and the idea they're being unlawfully imprisoned and all that is a tad dramatic. If I was in their position I'd just get someone to chuck up some LSD and weed through the window and have a cracking time.
Just heard on the news that Boris had to apologise for saying the new rules wrong. They then had to clarify whether people are allowed to meet in a pub beer garden or sit outside a cafe, and their clarification was that the gov is ‘advising against it’.
They couldn’t fecking run a bath. This should be the simple stuff.
They couldn’t fecking run a bath. This should be the simple stuff.
It depends where you live, with a bunch of random bits of rules across different areas. I *think* that in the north-east it's illegal to meet up in a pub, but in greater manchester it's advised against, and then in Bolton the pubs have to be closed completely, despite higher rates of infection elsewhere.
edit: just checked, and I'm definitely wrong, but not sure what exactly is correct.
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Aren't there more EU countries experiencing a "UK style" wave at the moment than aren't?
The likes of France, Spain, Ireland, Netherlands, Croatia, Austria, Denmark, Belgium etc?
In truth I imagine the fact is we see more of these examples as a result of English media being more mainstream and consumable. I can't recall many posts of Croation news articles in this thread for example.
The UK in my view have been surprisingly very compliant, with obvious exceptions. If someone had have explained the measures over the last 6 months I'd have assumed widespread levels of non-compliance and civil disobedience. Hell to turn it around I'd have assumed a death rate of maybe 5% across all age groups indiscriminately if someone had described the restrictions combined with compliance levels.
This is true. Either the other countries in a similar situation are doing the same things and we don't see it reported in our little bubble, or they're "misbehaving" in a way folks in the UK aren't which is the source of their own growth. It's entirely possible these outdoor street parties that people enjoy sneering at in here make for bad photos but make little difference to the spread, based on all the research about outdoor transmission. As it gets colder and they universally turn into house parties, then you've got a problem...
I wouldn't go as far as suggesting that this behaviour in the UK is driving more cases, but there is definitely not the same level of disobedience and idiocy in those other countries you mention.
I can't speak for all countries but I know Switzerland as well as I know Italy, and have been to France recently. The reason their cases are going up is easy. They don't have any rules anymore (or didn't until recently). In both countries you could walk around and go anywhere without any precautions. The UK had rules, but people didn't follow them.
Bigger and similar outbreaks in EU countries.
It's more what to do with drinking brits spilling out of pubs that started the discussion. I don't think anyone said other countries are fine, some are doing much worse right now. There's not the loutish behavior to consider as much in other countries when imposing a 10pm shut time or at least that is the thought.
No-one offers a solution though, do we close pubs completely, open as usual, close at 9-10-11pm like other countries? Everyone is so quick to point to what other countries are doing and we should copy but now it's wrong, other countries are doing local lockdown and restrictions but now this is wrong.
Again I'd have to see more than anecdotal evidence to conclude that the case increases that are similar across a dozen EU countries are driven by idiots in the UK; compared with rule relaxations in the others.
Especially as rules have been regularly relaxed in the UK as well up until very recently.
I suspect the harshness of lockdown is a big factor which you somewhat allude to in your "lack of rules" comment. The collective sigh or relief after being allowed out after being locked down in a harsh manner for months is always going to cause people to push the boundaries; irrespective of what those boundaries are.
Overall it's too multi faceted to point to any single issue or any piece of anecdotal evidence. My view is harshness of lockdown was a significant contributing factor; although Italy was very harsh and seem to have things under control so it isn't clear and evidential. There will also be dozens of other factors that could be put into an algorithm that no doubt include obedience of population, whether they've experienced "new" viruses before, general culture in terms of greetings/handshaking/drinking etc; as well as numerous factors you wouldn't even think about.